On Red Mage melee...

i think tier3 en spell would be best as a 99 merit because drk/pld get a tier2 equalivant, tier3 would restore the balance

The faster you kill, the less MP you use in Cures. Pecking Flurry should almost never go off ever unless the Corsair is the only one on the bird (Joyeuse/Mkris are very TP feedy weapons that deal low TP phase damage), especially with Elegy. I can't really think of a reason not to have full Vert merits anyways.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Obviously, THAT'S the reason.

It clearly can't have anything to possibly do with a RL schedule.


You know Wish could always organize a time for both parties to meet instead of just waiting there searching for Hyrist all day.

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As soon as Wish and Aurara challenged Hyrist to a synced Level 75 parse, he must have hurt himself backpedaling as hard as he did. That's the problem with breeding poor ideas without a critical eye in an insular place like the Alla RDM Forum - most everything falls to pieces when exposed to reality and the scrutiny of outsiders. Even Starfox's revered parses immediately fell apart when examined.

And when a prominent melee RDM enthusiast was challenged to substantiate that forum's viewpoints in the real world (so to speak), he backpedaled hard enough to make heads spin. The oft-cited belief that 'a melee RDM can do 80% of the damage of a top-tier DD' is an incorrect belief based on Starfox's flawed parses, and Hyrist knows it. Even Starfox himself would be decimated in a fair parse against real DDs. He is clearly avoiding the inevitable - he must admit that he is wrong, or he must honorably face Wish and Aurara in that parse and be proven wrong.

Choosing not to log in is simple avoidance, and I say that as a not-quite-casual-but-not-quite-hardcore players who spends at least half his logged-in time AFK and attending to other matters.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

Choosing not to log in is simple avoidance, and I say that as a not-quite-casual-but-not-quite-hardcore players who spends at least half his logged-in time AFK and attending to other matters.

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At the same time. I haven't been able to log in for the last couple of days myself. I know how real life matters can affect how often I play. Luckily, my final college class is now over so I should be able to play a bit more routinely now.

Even if he doesn't quite hit the 80% mark it'll be a lot closer then the 20% mark proposed earlier...

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Originally Posted by Aurara

I'm totally a BG shark because I call people on their BS right?

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Hey genius, I think part of the point of this thread is exactly that the game doesn't support RDM melee in it's current state, even though the job is implied as melee-capable. You jumping in here screaming at us about RDM sucking at melee is just stating the obvious.

I am an absolute RDM melee enthusiast, and I'll be the first to admit RDM sucks ass compared to any true DD. The (very) few times as a RDM I have been "allowed" to melee in a party situation, I contributed to overall damage the same way I did with my spells; strong support, but never outdoing the specialists. A RDM will never out-damage a DD(or out-cure a WHM, out-nuke a BLM, etc)). But, a true DD will never be tossing Cure IV's, enfeebling spells, Hasting, Refreshing, etc, in addition to melee output. ANY damage a RDM does in combat is more damage then it was doing standing in the backline.

The only reason I can see not letting a RDM melee in today's FFXI is to cut down on feeding the mob TP.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

The only reason I can see not letting a RDM melee in today's FFXI is to cut down on feeding the mob TP.

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This is a good reason, but I'd also say it depends on the RDM. I've seen quite a few RDMs (and I'm including myself here, I'm actually pretty terrible at RDM, which is why I'm not saying much in this thread) who can hardly multitask enough to keep their party buffed and the enemy debuffed, much less melee the mob.

For a good RDM though, yeah, I'd kinda see your point.

It's really not that hard to do. Basically, instead of standing in the back going through your line of spell macros, you can be up front engaged with the mob, and going through the same line of spell macros. RDM can deal damage, but not nearly enough to draw any attention away from the tank or other DD's. Just watch out for AoE's and keep an eye on your dialogue box for when buffs/debuffs wear off. Again, nowadays it's a moot point since people don't want anyone feeding TP to the mob.

I think a lot of us sort of lost sight for a long time in this thread. It's not about keeping up with dedicated, specialized DD's; it ain't gonna happen. The damage a RDM deals is secondary, like one long DoT. If RDM were able to even partially hold a candle to normal DD's damage-wise, the job would be beyond broken. RDM fills a jack-of-all-trades role, and can make everyone in the party's lives easier if played well. Nowadays nobody wants a hybrid though, everyone wants all specialists all the time.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Again, nowadays it's a moot point since people don't want anyone feeding TP to the mob.

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I don't recall a time when this statement wasn't true on anything decently difficult. It's not some new thing, its the way it's always been, you shouldn't imply it's new with your choice of words.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

I think a lot of us sort of lost sight for a long time in this thread. It's not about keeping up with dedicated, specialized DD's; it ain't gonna happen.

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Your buddies say they can do it with sub par gear, maybe you're just bad at FFXI!
(or maybe they're just kidding themselves lol)

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Hey genius, I think part of the point of this thread is exactly that the game doesn't support RDM melee in it's current state, even though the job is implied as melee-capable. You jumping in here screaming at us about RDM sucking at melee is just stating the obvious.

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Hey genius, any job is melee capable, dont give rdm the exclusive "we have swords it means we can melee!!!" whms have clubs and can hexa strike, sch smn have staff skill does that mean they should be QQing about meleeing(ok maybe some people like lolDallas QQ about smn but he's easily ignored). I came in "screaming"(even though i came in with a cool calm level headed tone and was replied with screams of anger, disgust and fury because i stated an opinion that people did not like) because I don't want SE reading this and thinking "OH THEY WANT MELEE RDM TO BE BETTER?!" and give RDM some stupid melee ability so that everyone who loves meleeing on rdm could go "HA I TOLD YOU SO NOOB". RDM should be enfeebling/curing/hasting/etc, NOT meleeing.

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I am an absolute RDM melee enthusiast, and I'll be the first to admit RDM sucks ass compared to any true DD. The (very) few times as a RDM I have been "allowed" to melee in a party situation, I contributed to overall damage the same way I did with my spells; strong support, but never outdoing the specialists. A RDM will never out-damage a DD(or out-cure a WHM, out-nuke a BLM, etc)). But, a true DD will never be tossing Cure IV's, enfeebling spells, Hasting, Refreshing, etc, in addition to melee output. ANY damage a RDM does in combat is more damage then it was doing standing in the backline.

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You probably contributed so much because the others you were playing with were crap or dead. This has been stressed a hundred times or more, stop comparing yourself to CRAP DD...seriously, go find some well geared, smart players with DD, they will crush you and your dmg contribution will be not even noticeable so stop saying you contribute so much, you contribute more with your spells/enfeebs than you do meleeing and wasting everyone's time.

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The only reason I can see not letting a RDM melee in today's FFXI is to cut down on feeding the mob TP.

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Because their dmg is crap on anything that isnt EP/DC, they contribute more being on the backline.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

I don't recall a time when this statement wasn't true on anything decently difficult. It's not some new thing, its the way it's always been, you shouldn't imply it's new with your choice of words.

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Thank you for deciding what I'm allowed to say, but really, I'll imply whatever I damn well please. In my experience, I have only started hearing about parties worrying about TP feed when Abyssea came out. Mobs have had TP moves since the beginning, but I honestly never heard so much worry about it. Before Abyssea, when a NM did a TP move, we just recovered and kept fighting. Wasn't such a big deal before.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Your buddies say they can do it with sub par gear, maybe you're just bad at FFXI!
(or maybe they're just kidding themselves lol)

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Ok, you lost me. Are you saying I'm wrong because as a melee RDM I'm not deluded enough to think I could compete with a DD, or am I supposed to be doing the same damage as a dedicated DD? Troll fail.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Hey genius, any job is melee capable, dont give rdm the exclusive "we have swords it means we can melee!!!" whms have clubs and can hexa strike, sch smn have staff skill does that mean they should be QQing about meleeing(ok maybe some people like lolDallas QQ about smn but he's easily ignored). I came in "screaming"(even though i came in with a cool calm level headed tone and was replied with screams of anger, disgust and fury because i stated an opinion that people did not like) because I don't want SE reading this and thinking "OH THEY WANT MELEE RDM TO BE BETTER?!" and give RDM some stupid melee ability so that everyone who loves meleeing on rdm could go "HA I TOLD YOU SO NOOB". RDM should be enfeebling/curing/hasting/etc, NOT meleeing.



You probably contributed so much because the others you were playing with were crap or dead. This has been stressed a hundred times or more, stop comparing yourself to CRAP DD...seriously, go find some well geared, smart players with DD, they will crush you and your dmg contribution will be not even noticeable so stop saying you contribute so much, you contribute more with your spells/enfeebs than you do meleeing and wasting everyone's time.

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You're mising the point, DD are SUPPOSED to be crushing RDM's melee contribution, RDM can melee and cast spells just fine. As I already said, a RDM won't be pulling hate from melee, so chances are their spells are not going to be interrupted. It's not like we're standing there pressing an "Attack" button, RDM can still cast a spell while in melee. ANY damage contributed to the fight is more damage than would have been if the RDM wasn't meleeing. It's all extra damage, no matter how small.

Alright, I'm trying to keep up with your argument, but the only thing you keep commenting on is how bad everyone else we RDM's must be playing with. It's like the 10th time you mentioned that against multiple people in this discussion. Please, clue me in to this all-seeing eye of yours on how you are able to witness and pass judgment not only on the RDM's in this thread, but every person we play with? R u a wizrd?

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Wow, hostile much? Punctuation works wonders, by the way. You're mising the point, DD are SUPPOSED to be crushing RDM's melee contribution, RDM can melee and cast spells just fine. They are not mutually exclusive! As I already said, a RDM won't be pulling hate from melee, so chances are their spells are not going to be interrupted. It's not like we're standing there pressing an "Attack" button, RDM can still cast a spell while in melee. ANY damage contributed to the fight is more damage than would have been if the RDM wasn't meleeing. It's all extra damage, no matter how small.

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Moving to ad hominem attacks are we? Well that's hilarious since you had a much more hostile reply than I had for you. I'm not missing any points here, you're simply wrong. RDM has no place on the frontline, because bu your logic every single job should be meleeing because they have melee capabilities. By having a RDM on the frontline you subject them to debuffs/easily killed unless they have: PDT/MDT sets, are you willing to put the money out for those sets? Or do you expect your healer(hint, YOU have cure4) to just cure you so you can continue to melee? If i was in your party, and I was on whm I would let you die, and just ignore your crying because i let a DD die. You are aware that some mobs have TP moves that will one shot you, but not the other DDs, congratulations, you are now dead and people have to waste MP/time away from the fight to raise you, OR they wait until the fight is over, in which case you contributed nothing, maybe 1-2k dmg, but nothing that would have changed the course of the fight. You are also forgetting that some mobs have silence auras, making it stupid for you to melee because you constantly have to run in/out of range meaning you lose dmg.

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Alright, I'm trying to keep up with your argument, but the only thing you keep commenting on is how bad everyone else we RDM's must be playing with. It's like the 10th time you mentioned that against multiple people in this discussion. Please, clue me in to this all-seeing eye of yours on how you are able to witness and pass judgment not only on the RDM's in this thread, but every person we play with? R u a wizrd?

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Come to Odin and parse wish and I, prove your rdm is "good" otherwise don't talk. I'll fill you in as to why i think all RDM suck, because most of them DO SUCK. People full timing mage gear for melee, not gearswapping, not curing or hasting anyone but themselves, not debuffing, you know, the normal things a melee rdm does :)

Edit: Nice R u a wizrd attack, and to reply, yes I am a wizrd i studied at Hogwarts, you jelly?

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Moving to ad hominem attacks are we? Well that's hilarious since you had a much more hostile reply than I had for you. I'm not missing any points here, you're simply wrong. RDM has no place on the frontline, because bu your logic every single job should be meleeing because they have melee capabilities. By having a RDM on the frontline you subject them to debuffs/easily killed unless they have: PDT/MDT sets, are you willing to put the money out for those sets? Or do you expect your healer(hint, YOU have cure4) to just cure you so you can continue to melee? If i was in your party, and I was on whm I would let you die, and just ignore your crying because i let a DD die. You are aware that some mobs have TP moves that will one shot you, but not the other DDs, congratulations, you are now dead and people have to waste MP/time away from the fight to raise you, OR they wait until the fight is over, in which case you contributed nothing, maybe 1-2k dmg, but nothing that would have changed the course of the fight. You are also forgetting that some mobs have silence auras, making it stupid for you to melee because you constantly have to run in/out of range meaning you lose dmg.


Come to Odin and parse wish and I, prove your rdm is "good" otherwise don't talk. I'll fill you in as to why i think all RDM suck, because most of them DO SUCK. People full timing mage gear for melee, not gearswapping, not curing or hasting anyone but themselves, not debuffing, you know, the normal things a melee rdm does :)

Edit: Nice R u a wizrd attack, and to reply, yes I am a wizrd i studied at Hogwarts, you jelly?

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Ok pal, I'm not the one screaming "stop playing with crap DD! Stop meleeing! U SUCK!" every other post. Your arguments are baseless. You have no idea how I play, and no idea whom I play with. And a parse? Seriously? You haven't read a single word I said. Why would I parse against a DD when I've said, multiple times, RDM melee doesn't compare with a dedicated DD. Wow man, you're not even trying.

But yeah, every job should be in he front line when they have:

Capped weapon skill over 335(before gear and merits)
Access to haste-capping gear
Access to at least a critical WS like Evisceration
Just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

Even if I'm meleeing in a party, I'm keeping buffs up and helping cure. Hell, I've main-healed parties and helped melee in trash xp parties, no problem; all DD's Hasted and mages Refreshed. Maybe all the RDM's you played with didn't do that. Sucks for you and they suck for not contributing to the party.

Trash players who don't help the party or gear swap are not RDM specific; they are just trash players.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Ok pal, I'm not the one screaming "stop playing with crap DD! Stop meleeing! U SUCK!" every other post. Your arguments are baseless. You have no idea how I play, and no idea whom I play with. And a parse? Seriously? You haven't read a single word I said. Why would I parse against a DD when I've said, multiple times, RDM melee doesn't compare with a dedicated DD. Wow man, you're not even trying.

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Your obvious sarcasm isn't helping to your argument, in fact you are making yourself look very foolish. So telling people to stop playing with crap DD is wrong? Should people just play with crap players and brag about how awesome melee rdm is? How are my arguments baseless? I simply said RDM has no place in the front lines, take it or leave it. Oh and how foolish of me to ask you to parse yourself, i ask Hyrist the same thing and he's ignored both wish and I, oops lol next time i wont be so silly :3

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But yeah, every job should be in he front line when they have:

Capped weapon skill over 335(before gear and merits)
Access to haste-capping gear
Access to at least a critical WS like Evisceration
Just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

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Congrats you just described whm, which does a better job of DD/curing the party than rdm does, bravo.

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Even if I'm meleeing in a party, I'm keeping buffs up and helping cure. Hell, I've main-healed parties and helped melee in trash xp parties, no problem; all DD's Hasted and mages Refreshed. Maybe all the RDM's you played with didn't do that. Sucks for you and they suck for not contributing to the party.

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Just because YOU can do it doesn't make it good.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Your obvious sarcasm isn't helping to your argument, in fact you are making yourself look very foolish. So telling people to stop playing with crap DD is wrong? Should people just play with crap players and brag about how awesome melee rdm is? How are my arguments baseless? I simply said RDM has no place in the front lines, take it or leave it. Oh and how foolish of me to ask you to parse yourself, i ask Hyrist the same thing and he's ignored both wish and I, oops lol next time i wont be so silly :3

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That's like a Marine challenging a Communications Officer to a wrestling match. A dedicated DD will blow RDM out of the water damage-wise, which is why a parse is pointless. A RDM can contribute damage, but will never be a good absolute source of it. What part of this are you not getting? You are saying there's no place for it, which is fine for your opinion, and my opinion is that there can be a place for it. Let's agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Congrats you just described whm, which does a better job of DD/curing the party than rdm does, bravo.

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Sad part is, you are absolutely right about this. Well, except for some newer gear(Calmecac Trousers and Atheling Mantle are fun). The fact that a WHM can currently out-damage a RDM is a serious point of contention, and part of why there are so many threads about this topic in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

You are aware that some mobs have TP moves that will one shot you, but not the other DDs

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What the hell is this?

First off every job should be carrying a PDT/MDT set if he wants to stand close to any dangerous mob. Hell, every mage should have an idle set regardless (which usually includes PDT unless there's a piece that gives Refresh).

Red Mage probably doesn't even need an MDT set (it would be the first thing I would drop with inventory issues). I mean we have Shell 5 and an innately have more magic defense then most jobs equip.

And believe it or not, Rdm can reach the 50% PDT cap pretty easy.

And since when does a Red Mage die easier the other melees? The only advantage DD jobs are going to have over Rdm (or hell, any mage in general) is a slightly more defense.

And unless you are a Monk other DDs won't even have more HP then us because we get this spell called stoneskin that essentially increases our HP by 460.

Sure DDs can get some defensive traits like counter, third eye, ect... but you must be high if you think those are even worth mentioning against a job that can cap the recast to utsusemi and cast it faster then you can blink.

Not to mention that even if we do get hurt it's not like meleeing suddenly strips us of our cure spells. In fact we have the most MP efficient cure spell in the game that is only castable on ourselves.

Really, the only time a DD is more survivable then a Red Mage is when the DDs HP is 6k, has a counter rate of 70%+, and has his own personal dual boxed whm with Minikin standing behind him.

Unfortunately though, the future of XI lies outside of abyssea and calling DD jobs more survivable then most mage jobs in general just shows that you should play with better mages.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

What the hell is this?

First off every job should be carrying a PDT/MDT set if he wants to stand close to any dangerous mob. Hell, every mage should have an idle set regardless (which usually includes PDT unless there's a piece that gives Refresh).

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Yeah except a majority of people don't carry idle/MDT/PDT sets.

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Red Mage probably doesn't even need an MDT set (it would be the first thing I would drop with inventory issues). I mean we have Shell 5 and an innately have more magic defense then most jobs equip.

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If you're soloing you wont cap MDT with just shell V.

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And believe it or not, Rdm can reach the 50% PDT cap pretty easy.

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I have a PDT set and an MDT set on rdm, so yes I am aware.

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And since when does a Red Mage die easier the other melees? The only advantage DD jobs are going to have over Rdm (or hell, any mage in general) is a slightly more defense.

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They die easier because they dont carry those sets and melee in crap mage gear lol

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And unless you are a Monk other DDs won't even have more HP then us because we get this spell called stoneskin that essentially increases our HP by 460.

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I know, I have rdm. But if you're trying to argue that stoneskin will save you every time you're misguided, mobs CAN TP multiple times in a row you know.

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Sure DDs can get some defensive traits like counter, third eye, ect... but you must be high if you think those are even worth mentioning against a job that can cap the recast to utsusemi and cast it faster then you can blink.

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Any job can cap recasts with marchx2 and haste, all RDM has is fastcast, which is extremely nice for soloing, but don't think rdm gets some exclusive thing where it can cap recasts only. Also casting shadows lowers your DoT sooooo...

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Not to mention that even if we do get hurt it's not like meleeing suddenly strips us of our cure spells. In fact we have the most MP efficient cure spell in the game that is only castable on ourselves.

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Regen? or Cure4, because i'm pretty sure cure 4 can be cast on others! and Regen....lol that's castable on others too!

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Really, the only time a DD is more survivable then a Red Mage is when the DDs HP is 6k, has a counter rate of 70%+, and has his own personal dual boxed whm with Minikin standing behind him.

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RDM is pretty powerful, but it's still worthless compared to a DD on the frontline.

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Unfortunately though, the future of XI lies outside of abyssea and calling DD jobs more survivable then most mage jobs in general just shows that you should play with better mages.

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All my mages i play with have PDT/MDT/Idle sets

What kind of bad Support do you have that Dds aren't getting Shell V? Moot point, MDT sets are good for everyone.

You aren't capping PDT without using inferior main/offhands (assuming you were meleeing, if not ignore), but I suppose neither is anyone else short of Bravura War.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Thank you for deciding what I'm allowed to say, but really, I'll imply whatever I damn well please.

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You can say whatever you want, but that doesn't mean you're right. I just assumed you were not some noob who didn't do anything before the level cap increase, guess I was wrong. People did not bring a bunch of melees to hard HNMs or ones with annoying TP moves and just melee the crap out of them, like Tiamat, Khim, Fafhogg, Sandworm, etc. I'm sorry you never got to do this kind of stuff at 75, but now you know so you can stop thinking this is some kind of new thing.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Ok, you lost me. Are you saying I'm wrong because as a melee RDM I'm not deluded enough to think I could compete with a DD, or am I supposed to be doing the same damage as a dedicated DD? Troll fail.

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I won actually, I used what you said to reinforce my earlier comments about how RDM doesn't do very good melee damage. And I'm doing it again right now!

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Originally Posted by Aurara

They die easier because they dont carry those sets and melee in crap mage gear lol

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That's a complaint against the player though and not the job.

crappy players will be crappy players regardless of the job...

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

You aren't capping PDT without using inferior main/offhands (assuming you were meleeing, if not ignore), but I suppose neither is anyone else short of Bravura War.

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Joy + Genbu isn't a terrible combo and would propel us well into the 40+ PDT range.
Give us native Sanguine and that almost becomes the preferred set-up.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

You can say whatever you want, but that doesn't mean you're right. I just assumed you were not some noob who didn't do anything before the level cap increase, guess I was wrong. People did not bring a bunch of melees to hard HNMs or ones with annoying TP moves and just melee the crap out of them, like Tiamat, Khim, Fafhogg, Sandworm, etc. I'm sorry you never got to do this kind of stuff at 75, but now you know so you can stop thinking this is some kind of new thing.

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You got me there, I never did things like land kings, sandworm, etc. Just never interested me. I play on console with limited play time, so camping things for days on end was out of reach for my play style. I mostly just did Dynamis and quests/missions before Abyssea.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

I won actually, I used what you said to reinforce my earlier comments about how RDM doesn't do very good melee damage. And I'm doing it again right now!

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Is English not your first language? What part of my past 4 statements about RDM damage have you not understood? I wasn't joking, you really did lose me. I don't understand what you're getting at. I've been saying over and over how RDM at the moment only contribute to damage, and cannot hold a candle to true DD damage. What's your point?

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Joy + Genbu isn't a terrible combo and would propel us well into the 40+ PDT range.
Give us native Sanguine and that almost becomes the preferred set-up.

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It kinda is, If you're trying to be a good DD, and not dual Wielding, You lose i think its.. 25% Dual wield? thats a significant hit to your DPS, and i mean VERY significant, Almost the equivalent to not wearing any haste during TP Phase.

You'd be better off using PDT Shamshir+2's than a Genbu's. Not saying either are great choices though.

Sigh.

I have a BRD mule that would outparse you guys and yet this topic still continues.

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Originally Posted by Rearden

Sigh.

I have a BRD mule that would outparse you guys and yet this topic still continues.

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Because the parse is all that matters, right? Forget all those spells and utility and stuff. Just parse numbers.

You dont have to melee for those spells to be useful you know.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

You dont have to melee for those spells to be useful you know.

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And I don't have to stand in the back line motionless, either. Well, okay, depends on the mob.

No it doesn't rdm shouldn't be meleeing anything except trash exp mobs(and even then those die in like 1 WS so whats the point?)

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

It kinda is, If you're trying to be a good DD, and not dual Wielding, You lose i think its.. 25% Dual wield? thats a significant hit to your DPS, and i mean VERY significant, Almost the equivalent to not wearing any haste during TP Phase.

You'd be better off using PDT Shamshir+2's than a Genbu's. Not saying either are great choices though.

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Well yeah, if we had sanguine natively I would think Joy/OaT Khanda would be optimal for damage.

Double attack loses quite a bit of value on a weapon when your primary WS can't double attack.

While I agree that losing Dual Wield is a pretty big hit on your DoT it's not quite as bad as if we were talking about a physical WS here and certainly not as bad as not wearing haste gear.

TP phase damage yes, it's about as bad, but I forget the numbers atm, but dropping dual wield isn't going to drop your WS frequency nearly as bad as dropping haste would, and it's not like magical WSs receive the +1fTP from dual wielding that a physical WS would receive.

Is it a hit to your damage? Sure, I estimate that it would drop us ~20%, but sometimes there are situations where you need the extra survivability even if momentarily at the expense of your damage.

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Originally Posted by Rearden

Sigh.

I have a BRD mule that would outparse you guys and yet this topic still continues.

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Isn't that a reason for this topic to continue?

Because the job that is advertised as being the "Jack of all trades" is getting beat physically by the geek from band camp?

I mean it's not like we are asking to melee on the things that even Blus are in the back cannonball spamming on, but lowmaning stuff is becoming even more and more common, and with lowmanning hybridization is important. It would be nice to be able to perform to SOME decent standard at those times.

I'll take 13mp/tic refresh, 25.xx%haste, 50% slow and -23%DT for 1000 please

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Originally Posted by Aurara

No it doesn't rdm shouldn't be meleeing anything except trash exp mobs(and even then those die in like 1 WS so whats the point?)

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Opinions are awesome.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

And I don't have to stand in the back line motionless, either. Well, okay, depends on the mob.

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One question I have been thinking of is how much damage are you going to be adding when swapping weapons to cast spells (staves/clubs+sheilds/PDT/MDT options) or are you going to forego bonuses from those slots to keep your TP from resetting?

actually I think if we really want RDM to do better melee we need to push SE to fix the en spells to do more damage per hit on mobs weak to that element, as it is, the original en spells do very little difference toward mobs that are or are not weak to them, and the en spell II set, is kinda a joke, the originals hit both main and offhand weapons, the en spell II set hits only the main and what does it do, increases weakness to the elemental weakness of that enspell.....not a very big help unless you are helping nukers

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Originally Posted by Thunderlips

One question I have been thinking of is how much damage are you going to be adding when swapping weapons to cast spells (staves/clubs+sheilds/PDT/MDT options) or are you going to forego bonuses from those slots to keep your TP from resetting?

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If I'm meleeing, I'm not swapping staves. I personally have pairs of MAB and M.Acc Shamshirs, just in case my spells need a boost. Really, if I'm meleeing it, chances are my capped and merited enfeebling skill is landing my spells just fine. If I'm having trouble landing spells, then I'll change up gear as needed. If I'm still not landing them, it's either highly resistant or flat-out immune. Don't really need M.Acc to land Cures and buffs, MND and enhancing gear swaps take care of that.

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Originally Posted by Thunderlips

One question I have been thinking of is how much damage are you going to be adding when swapping weapons to cast spells (staves/clubs+sheilds/PDT/MDT options) or are you going to forego bonuses from those slots to keep your TP from resetting?

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Because we need more macc?

Seriously, if we can land it, we're going to land it with or without a staff.
From there the extra mind froma weapon slot is going to add like what? .3% more slow?

(Slow is really only so useful up until the point that your DDs can recast Utsu between swings.)

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Blus are in the back cannonball spamming on, but lowmaning stuff is becoming even more and more common, and with lowmanning hybridization is important. It would be nice to be able to perform to SOME decent standard at those times.

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You perform well by making sure mobs are debuffed and melees hastes and mages refresh'd etc. Also blu doesn't spam cannonball if its that lowman, they usually melee(assuming they have almace/good melee/PDT/MDT builds).

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Well yeah, if we had sanguine natively I would think Joy/OaT Khanda would be optimal for damage.

Double attack loses quite a bit of value on a weapon when your primary WS can't double attack.

While I agree that losing Dual Wield is a pretty big hit on your DoT it's not quite as bad as if we were talking about a physical WS here and certainly not as bad as not wearing haste gear.

TP phase damage yes, it's about as bad, but I forget the numbers atm, but dropping dual wield isn't going to drop your WS frequency nearly as bad as dropping haste would, and it's not like magical WSs receive the +1fTP from dual wielding that a physical WS would receive.

Is it a hit to your damage? Sure, I estimate that it would drop us ~20%, but sometimes there are situations where you need the extra survivability even if momentarily at the expense of your damage.

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Well i would have to respectfully disagree. Gaining a 25% boost to your attack speed is very significant, especially if you're already stacking 25% Haste and Haste spell. I would say far more significant than its being played as.

I'm not really knowledgeable on RDM melee, But i think Evisceration would be the better WS than Sanguine Blade for pure damage. Not including survivability. I'm working on the Assumption the RDM is trying to do his fair share of Damage.

I think even Death Blossom would be better than Sanguine for pure Damage.

Either way, Maybe we're arguing two different Aspects, but as far as pure damage goes, I think Evisceration will beat Sanguine Blade, and would be the better option, so Dual Wielding will always work in your favor (What with not needing to sub something lesser because of not having Natural Sanguine)

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Originally Posted by Aurara

You perform well by making sure mobs are debuffed and melees hastes and mages refresh'd etc. Also blu doesn't spam cannonball if its that lowman, they usually melee(assuming they have almace/good melee/PDT/MDT builds).

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And this can all be done while meleeing. You do realize you can set the target for your spell in a macro, right? Standing there swinging weapons does not in any way impede on spellcasting.

Dual Wield and Haste don't compound off of each other. Adding +25% dual wield is going to increase your TP damage by 33% irregardless of how much haste you have (unless you are hitting the delay cap obviously). Doesn't matter if you have 0 haste or 25 haste it's still going to increase it the same proportion.

And I really doubt Evi and DB are going to beat Sanguine on Rdm. We really don't have that great of options for physical WSs (and our dagger selection kinda sucks now), but we have AMAZING options for elemental WSs. Heck, I hit a 1.1k AE outside of abyssea, and my AE set is lacking some very important pieces. I myself would be using AE over sanguine blade, but that requires a TP bonus dagger and we are excluded from the TotM daggers while the martial knife kills your DOT. Even then Sanguine usually outperforms AE.

Though I do agree that this is only possible if we receive Sanguine natively.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

If I'm meleeing, I'm not swapping staves. I personally have pairs of MAB and M.Acc Shamshirs, just in case my spells need a boost. Really, if I'm meleeing it, chances are my capped and merited enfeebling skill is landing my spells just fine. If I'm having trouble landing spells, then I'll change up gear as needed. If I'm still not landing them, it's either highly resistant or flat-out immune. Don't really need M.Acc to land Cures and buffs, MND and enhancing gear swaps take care of that.

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However then you are negatively impacting your melee by using M.Acc weapons instead of STR+ using those weapons. You do lose the bonus MND+ from weapon/shield to buffs as well as MND based debuffs. Also no cure potency+ staff/club for curing?

Pretty sure a HQ/magican staff is going to outdo the +INT and MAB you get off the dual wielded swords as well.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

And this can all be done while meleeing. You do realize you can set the target for your spell in a macro, right? Standing there swinging weapons does not in any way impede on spellcasting.

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I guess this would come down to the person playing the job, but I would have to say from person experience I have seen people let buffs slide so they can get those last 1-2 melee swings in they need to hit 100 TP and do another WS.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Dual Wield and Haste don't compound off of each other. Adding +25% dual wield is going to increase your TP damage by 33% irregardless of how much haste you have (unless you are hitting the delay cap obviously). Doesn't matter if you have 0 haste or 25 haste it's still going to increase it the same proportion.

And I really doubt Evi and DB are going to beat Sanguine on Rdm. We really don't have that great of options for physical WSs (and our dagger selection kinda sucks now), but we have AMAZING options for elemental WSs. Heck, I hit a 1.1k AE outside of abyssea, and my AE set is lacking some very important pieces. I myself would be using AE over sanguine blade, but that requires a TP bonus dagger and we are excluded from the TotM daggers while the martial knife kills your DOT. Even then Sanguine usually outperforms AE.

Though I do agree that this is only possible if we receive Sanguine natively.

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As i said I'm not amazingly indepth on RDM melee, Just always figured Evisc > Sanguine.

However, Twilight Knife is a pretty decent dagger for RDM, very decent even... But its true RDM WS Gear is rather limited, Hell even on THF on mobs like Dynamis-Xarc my Evis rarely average higher than 1k unstacked... Maybe I'mdoingitwrong (I don't think i am -.-) but i can see how a RDM would be far worse off.

I need to play with RDM a bit more, But i still think losing Dual wield would not be worth gaining Sanguine Blade. I could be wrong, Just my view on it. (though i think you said that in your last line).