[DEV1010] Pet job adjustments

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You don't play like Dallas, you're a gimp noob!

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Please read the posts in order. Thanks! This thread was made because all pet jobs are inherently gimp, forcing players to think that being gimp is by design. I don't think I accused any gimpiness in this thread of being the fault of noobs. Mediocrity has always been a goal of veterans.

I'm holding back because the summoner is simply stronger than the avatar. Think of it like DDs subbing /NIN for shadows. That's where melee SMN has arrived. It is unacceptable for a RNG to fire their bow less, and it is unacceptable for a SMN to discard the only improving portion of their damage.

If being the best at what you do doesn't interest you, you don't have to follow me. You should know that means never tanking in Abyssea either.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I've actually seen Heavenly Strike peak around 11,000 thanks to set bonus

SMN is a great job, but the 45 second BP timer is too restricting

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Yes, how dare they make you wait 45 whole seconds to do another 11,000 damage. You should be able to do 11,000 damage every ten seconds, nay, every second if you feel like it.

...You're talking about something that's 2-3 times stronger than the strongest nuke in the game (for no additional MP) AND puts no enmity on you and you're crying about 45 seconds of recast? Sheesh.

Go cry to the THFs, who rely on one minute JA timers that can't be reduced by gear at all. (Actually... if they can make -JA timer gear for one job, why can't they make it for two? That might help some of THF's problems without making it less THF-like. But that's off topic for this thread.)

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Most of it is in my post on page 3, right before your complaint that I never reveal my secrets, which is why I sent you to the Summoner's forum to find it.

Best DD atma so far: RR, VV, SA. Why?
1) All 3 sources of damage benefit from physical atma, instead of just one. Damage is miles beyond that of a solid magic pact build. Not even the people in this thread were willing to believe the damage output of a staff that has only 4% less DOT rating than emp GK.
2) Spirit Taker and Myrkr provide more than enough MP for SMN. Minikin is a waste of an atma slot except to deal magic damage. I was getting 300-800 MP return with Spirit Taker on my OA4 staff.
3) Our best melee buff is on the avatar with the strongest physical BP.
4) Physical BPs do not drain pettp. That means a physical build is almost always accompanied by 507 AOE heals.
5) The rules for DD are well known. I'm just following those rules.

Some day I may replace VV with Apoc, but I need /WHM for all the other crazy stuff I do. There's enough downtime that +2 regain outweighs triple attack.

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Well, you said "most" of it is on Page 3, but all I see is just certain stats (21% haste, 7% double attack). I'm just wondering where you get those numbers without pulling it out of your...you know.

Favorite part though. "Best DD atma so far: RR, VV, SA." "Some day I may replace VV with Apoc, but I need /WHM for all the other crazy stuff I do." Didn't you also say that you need /WHM for "RR only" once? Also, why are you thinking of replacing VV with Apoc when you have SA that could be replaced with? At least you would have the same atmas as actual DDs in that case. But I'm sure that STR+40, Att+50 is sooooo much better than Triple Attack+15%, especially for an avatar that does not have even double attack capabilities without atma.

But you still haven't posted your gears.

Guess what though, I'll post my gears and atma usage for you to show you the best possible damage you can have from avatar alone.

Fay Staff (perp-3, Pet:Att+7/RA+7, Pet:MAB+3) I got lucky, first fay staff I got too.
Emp+2 full set (well, I'm 3/5, going for 5/5 as soon as possible, only have +1 horn and gloves atm)
SMN skill stuff (you know, like the sea cape, SMN belt, SMN earring, Caller's Pendant, stuff like that)
Soulscourge (for BP:R, to help proc the set bonus)
Caller's Sash (set on macro for magical damage BP:R)
YY Robe/Relic stuff (for BP-)
MP+ gear (whatever slots are left to fill)

Atma of choice:
Minkin/Beyond/Ultimate for high-end Magical damage (BP of choice: Heavenly Strike, go figure) Although if I need to change up magical damage, I just replace Beyond with any other elemental damage +%.
Minkin/Ducal Guard/Mounted Champion for soloing. Because most anything that I fight solo can just have one avatar on it. Without worry of losing mp or HP if I get hit with an AoE. Only thing I really worry about are spellcasters, because ducal guard only works for reducing physical damage down alot. Single element spellcasters aren't a worry though, because I'll just sic an avatar thats strong against that element.
Minkin/RR/Apoc for Physical damage Avatars, because I find that having a Set proc with an Apoc proc to do as much damage as a Set proc with Magical damage. But for magical damage resistant/absorb mobs. Sometimes even better if you are fighting something with a little more "oomph" against certain types of damage, like blunt and Chaotic Strike. Best damage I have done to a Teek is 11k or so.

Why am I doing Minkin? Because I still get free avatars with the gear I have listed above, and I don't have to try to be a substandard DD to get back all the mp I use from BP:R/W. You would be amazed about how much MP a +10 refresh can give you back in a 45 second time frame.

Now, can you post your "21% haste/7% double attack" for us? I would love to see that.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

If being the best at what you do doesn't interest you, you don't have to follow me.

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Since when was SMN a front line job? Is it because SMNs have the highest staff skill among all mages that makes it a front line job?

When are you going to suggest that Dark Knights should stay in the back and nuke from a distance? Or that Red Mages should also melee, since they have En-spells and the same sword and dagger skill level as a SMN with staff skill.

For soloing, if you want to melee, by all means, go ahead. You aren't hurting anyone else in the process (hence, solo).

For partying, if you want to melee, by all means, go ahead. Just don't blame others if the mob is spamming TP moves at 80% and the WHM is already out of mp (even in abyssea!), and people are dying.

But, seriously, thats got to be the best quote of the day! And the day just got started too!

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Originally Posted by Karinya_of_Carbuncle

Yes, how dare they make you wait 45 whole seconds to do another 11,000 damage. You should be able to do 11,000 damage every ten seconds, nay, every second if you feel like it.

...You're talking about something that's 2-3 times stronger than the strongest nuke in the game (for no additional MP) AND puts no enmity on you and you're crying about 45 seconds of recast? Sheesh.

Go cry to the THFs, who rely on one minute JA timers that can't be reduced by gear at all. (Actually... if they can make -JA timer gear for one job, why can't they make it for two? That might help some of THF's problems without making it less THF-like. But that's off topic for this thread.)

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I am a THF. I've posted about THF stuff on these boards SEVERAL times, including my disdain for how THF Job Abilities rely solely on being in a party. Just because THF isn't in the greatest shape doesn't mean its a bad job.

If you're not a gimp THF, you can do way more than 11,000 DMG in 45 Seconds. You can get TP in like ~10Seconds or less based on the buffs you have and Evisc' will average ~2.5k~3.k on anything Meaningful in abyssea. That adds up, through melee Damage, way more than 11,000DMG.

THIRDLY, 11,000 is only with SET PROC, which is roughly ~10% Chance to proc when Blood boon Activates, Its really really low. So you average ~5.5k DMG eveyr 45 seconds. Which is incredibly low compared to any other DD worth their party spot.

Enmity doesn't matter as much these days if you're going to actually bring up the "hate free' aspect of it, Even BLMs don't have to worry about it as much with Mana Wall and Enmity Douse. While its a nice bonus, its not enough of a reason to warrant a drawn out BP Timer these days.

BP Timer is too Restricting, Any DD worth his slot in a party can dish out 2x the damage a SMN can in that time, from Melee damage and WS Frequency.

It gets even worse if the DD in question actually gets March or haste frequently.

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Originally Posted by Karinya_of_Carbuncle

...You're talking about something that's 2-3 times stronger than the strongest nuke in the game (for no additional MP) AND puts no enmity on you and you're crying about 45 seconds of recast? Sheesh.

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1) Set bonus from BLM Emp +2 can do just as much damage as Set bonus from SMN Emp +2. BLMs have the advantage because they can cast a lot more than once ever 45 seconds.

2) Blood Pacts cost MP to the Summoner. So, yeah, it still costs mp to do that 11k attack. Although, 1/8 as much MP for BP:R. But then again, BLM Emp +2 set also reduces Bliz V to 1/8 as much MP for double damage.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Since when was SMN a front line job?

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Do you need one reason, or will a dozen suffice?

1) Since Spirit Taker was always better than resting.
2) Since the Feed TP excuse was ignored by every other job in the game. Zerg has been the way for YEARS. Even WHM melee.
3) Since avatars are summoned next to the summoner and since AOE buffs and heals are centered around the avatar.
4) Since 75 pacts originally didn't exist and the the 70 Pacts are only melee range (and used to fail any further away).
5) Since SMN get no native healing magic skill, enhancing magic skill, enfeebling magic skill, etc.
6) Since SMN does have access to a lot of good melee gear. (Look it up, 23% haste is the max right now)
7) Since WHM *can* keep people alive, and always have. They melee too.
8) What idiot came up with the idea that SMN should never die anyway? Avatars are full strength if SMN die once or ten times.
9) Speaking of dying, hard to do if that avatar is out using an AOE heal and the SMN stops to use an AOE heal, maybe even with divine seal. Doesn't happen alot though... look at #7.
10) Since Myrkr is even more powerful than Spirit Taker. Spirit Taker has a multiplier of x1.0. So does a normal hit. One double damage hit = one normal hit + one Spirit Taker damage. Only works if you melee.
11) Since more damage = faster kills = less damage taken by party = less stress on real healers.
12) Last, but certainly not least, all the fun posts from people saying "how dare you play this pet job identical to BST or PUP."

Oh, for the bakers out there:

13) Knowing that every time someone tells you that you suck, they propose some subset of what you do.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

1) Allow /BST subbed Snarl to work for Avatars, Wyvern and Automatons. I really don't think DRG would use it, but why not show them the love too?
2) Allow all avatar buffs/heals to at least hit other avatars, but I vote for all pets. 2 Garudas should be able to heal each other.
3) Put back in the code that allowed pets to benefit from DNC Sambas. We loved this "error."
4) Enhance COR pet rolls to account for the fact that no player will benefit from any rolls.
5) Introduce AOE pet food that works on all pets in the pt.
6) Please please please introduce armor for SMN, BST, DRG, and PUP that equally buffs both the player and the pet.

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1.) I would welcome this, another tool in the bag.
2.) A group of summoners can take down really anything letting them heal other avatars would be a bit imba.
3.) Ya would love to see this back lol...
4.) Interesting
5.) Love this idea.
6.) Can't complain on this everybody looks forward to more gear but some jobs due lack.

Thanks for making this thread, there really needs to be more of these.

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

2.) A group of summoners can take down really anything letting them heal other avatars would be a bit imba.

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Agree with all but 2 :)

Really, a group of anything can take down really anything, so thats not a fair representation. DRGs can cure their pets with Spirit Link, Puppets got Oil, and BST's have jugs. giving SMNs some way to heal their avatars (Aside from a few with Healing BPs) would be nice.

Can't be anymore broken than 100%PDT BST pets and Pet food Zeta in Abyssea. SMN is a fun powerful job, i agree.

On another note, there is an item called "Dawn Mulsum" that cures your pet in game right now. its pretty neat.

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This thread was made because all pet jobs are inherently gimp, forcing players to think that being gimp is by design.

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I wouldn't call them gimp. Pets are perfectly balanced BEFORE buffs. It is just the buffing system that is a huge failure. You really shouldn't be able to do 100 times as much damage in a minute by applying a full set of buffs.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I wouldn't call them gimp. Pets are perfectly balanced BEFORE buffs. It is just the buffing system that is a huge failure. You really shouldn't be able to do 100 times as much damage in a minute by applying a full set of buffs.

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And thus pets only work in non-buff settings, which is bad for pet jobs. I think once we get some sort of compatibility with other jobs, other jobs will like us more.

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If being the best at what you do doesn't interest you, you don't have to follow me.

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There you go. If you're not doing what Dallas is doing, then you aren't best at what you do! Because Dallas is the official authority on what is good and not good for SMN!

Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop acting like you're the official king of summoning and that everyone who doesn't act like you is bad or gimp. Because you are not "the" summoner.

While he may not be "The" Summoner, His logic at least is sound in theory. Practice is debatable.

Now, I know i never invite SMNs anymore as "Gimp healers", i invite them as a DD, and while it may not be much, a SMN who is meleeing with their pet is doing more damage than a SMN who isn't meleeing, assuming they're both of equal intelligence and gear, using proper macros.

So, as a SMN-DD Standpoint, Meleeing with your pet is better than not. little in this game severely needs you to limit their TP, but of course, Situational sh*t is situational, Meleeing wont always be the best way, but for your run-of-the-mill Exp parties, and NMs without devastating AoEs, its actually better.

Especially if you already gear for DD Atmas for Predator Claws.

However, also note, on some mobs Magical BPs might be better, so you should gear magical, however, again, Situational is Situational.

But when it absolutely comes down to it, If you're already gearing for PC, or even not, (You could be gearing Magical and just spamming Garland of Bliss), Meleeing will get you higher numbers, even if its only by ~10%.

But you do what you're invited too. So i repeat again, Situational Sh*t is situational.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

While he may not be "The" Summoner, His logic at least is sound in theory. Practice is debatable.

Now, I know i never invite SMNs anymore as "Gimp healers", i invite them as a DD, and while it may not be much, a SMN who is meleeing with their pet is doing more damage than a SMN who isn't meleeing, assuming they're both of equal intelligence and gear, using proper macros.

So, as a SMN-DD Standpoint, Meleeing with your pet is better than not. little in this game severely needs you to limit their TP, but of course, Situational sh*t is situational, Meleeing wont always be the best way, but for your run-of-the-mill Exp parties, and NMs without devastating AoEs, its actually better.

Especially if you already gear for DD Atmas for Predator Claws.

However, also note, on some mobs Magical BPs might be better, so you should gear magical, however, again, Situational is Situational.

But when it absolutely comes down to it, If you're already gearing for PC, or even not, (You could be gearing Magical and just spamming Garland of Bliss), Meleeing will get you higher numbers, even if its only by ~10%.

But you do what you're invited too. So i repeat again, Situational Sh*t is situational.

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Then again, why invite a substandard DD to do damage when you can have a WAR or MNK take his place?

Or a substandard nuker when a BLM or SCH can do the same thing? Except more frequently?

But if Dallas wants to melee in his parties, by all means, let him

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Agree with all but 2 :)

Really, a group of anything can take down really anything, so thats not a fair representation. DRGs can cure their pets with Spirit Link, Puppets got Oil, and BST's have jugs. giving SMNs some way to heal their avatars (Aside from a few with Healing BPs) would be nice.

Can't be anymore broken than 100%PDT BST pets and Pet food Zeta in Abyssea. SMN is a fun powerful job, i agree.

On another note, there is an item called "Dawn Mulsum" that cures your pet in game right now. its pretty neat.

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Haha true thanks, wasent really thinking outside the box on that one:cool:

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Then again, why invite a substandard DD to do damage when you can have a WAR or MNK take his place?

Or a substandard nuker when a BLM or SCH can do the same thing? Except more frequently?

But if Dallas wants to melee in his parties, by all means, let him

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Oh I have the answer to this one...

3:03
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nHJS...eature=related

Its true...Summoners are like cookies.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Then again, why invite a substandard DD to do damage when you can have a WAR or MNK take his place?

Or a substandard nuker when a BLM or SCH can do the same thing? Except more frequently?

But if Dallas wants to melee in his parties, by all means, let him

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I get what you're saying Korpg, I really really do,

But, The point isn't "Why invite this over that", The argument i've made is based on the assumption if i invite a SMN, he'll be a DD.

So, The point is, if you invite a SMN To DD for whatever reason, Meleeing with your avatar will make you do more damage.

Nothing else matters, no other reasons or excuses. If you're invited to DD, You'll be doing more damage by meleeing with your pet.

Like i said, Its situational at best, But the core of his argument is sound. Not every aspect of it, but the idea that Meleeing with your pet = More Damage is true.

You fullfil the role you're invited for, Its all Situational.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Do you need one reason, or will a dozen suffice?

1) Since Spirit Taker was always better than resting.
2) Since the Feed TP excuse was ignored by every other job in the game. Zerg has been the way for YEARS. Even WHM melee.
3) Since avatars are summoned next to the summoner and since AOE buffs and heals are centered around the avatar.
4) Since 75 pacts originally didn't exist and the the 70 Pacts are only melee range (and used to fail any further away).
5) Since SMN get no native healing magic skill, enhancing magic skill, enfeebling magic skill, etc.
6) Since SMN does have access to a lot of good melee gear. (Look it up, 23% haste is the max right now)
7) Since WHM *can* keep people alive, and always have. They melee too.
8) What idiot came up with the idea that SMN should never die anyway? Avatars are full strength if SMN die once or ten times.
9) Speaking of dying, hard to do if that avatar is out using an AOE heal and the SMN stops to use an AOE heal, maybe even with divine seal. Doesn't happen alot though... look at #7.
10) Since Myrkr is even more powerful than Spirit Taker. Spirit Taker has a multiplier of x1.0. So does a normal hit. One double damage hit = one normal hit + one Spirit Taker damage. Only works if you melee.
11) Since more damage = faster kills = less damage taken by party = less stress on real healers.
12) Last, but certainly not least, all the fun posts from people saying "how dare you play this pet job identical to BST or PUP."

Oh, for the bakers out there:

13) Knowing that every time someone tells you that you suck, they propose some subset of what you do.

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1) MP is still an issue? Since when?
2) When you are fighting a mob that doesn't spam high damage AoE, go ahead, melee and beat that gimp DRK in damage. As for WHM melee, they only did it in lowman situations, you can't really keep up with the cures if you are also the one needing cures. Don't you remember how PLD kept hate?
3) And thats why you move to the center of the party to give those AoE buffs. Nothing is stopping you from walking towards a mob to give out buffs....if the party actually needs those buffs.
4) Again, nothing stopping you from BP and release, or nowadays BP and let the avatar whack on the mob.
5) So, you saying that anyone who has native healing magic, enhancing magic, and/or enfeebling magic can't melee? Sorry PLD and DRKs out there.
6) 26% haste is the max, and most, if not all actual melees can get it. You still haven't told me your gear set either, I don't know how you get 21% or 23% haste plus 7% double attack.
7) WHM can always keep people alive, but if they are meleeing they can't target people quickly, much less target people outside their party as quickly as they are, you know, not meleeing. WHM melee and cure setups are only good for 6 people or less in order for them to be effective.
8) Keep dying then. That 30 second recast timer on Garuda will become 1 minute, and if you don't have ability to RR or have Apoc atma, then that 1 minute will turn into 1 raise per mob. Cause the WHM ain't raising you for meleeing that NM.
9) Yeah, AoE heal every 45 seconds for what, 507 max really helps out a lot. Thats only if you have 300% TP on Garuda. Or you could use Carbuncle for more recovery than that.
10) Is that staff really worth the effort it take, plus the additional cost of perp to properly equip it? You can get 75% of your MP back every 100%, but if you constantly die, you can't keep your avatar on the mob all the time. So, where do you get your MP back from? I can have a free avatar, still do a lot of damage, and if my avatar dies? Just resummon it. Low chance of me dying from AoE that way. And who knows, having a disposable avatar for free actually can help people out during a mini-wipe where people need to recover. But you won't have the mp for it because the only way for you to recover mp is by TPing on the mob
11) More swings = more TP for the mob = more AoE moves = more stress for the healers = more chance for a wipe.
12) No comment
13) Wait, isn't that what you are doing? Aren't you saying I suck for not meleeing? Kindof like the "Pot/Kettle" argument.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I get what you're saying Korpg, I really really do,

But, The point isn't "Why invite this over that", The argument i've made is based on the assumption if i invite a SMN, he'll be a DD.

So, The point is, if you invite a SMN To DD for whatever reason, Meleeing with your avatar will make you do more damage.

Nothing else matters, no other reasons or excuses. If you're invited to DD, You'll be doing more damage by meleeing with your pet.

Like i said, Its situational at best, But the core of his argument is sound. Not every aspect of it, but the idea that Meleeing with your pet = More Damage is true.

You fullfil the role you're invited for, Its all Situational.

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I just don't want new SMNs out there to think this is the gospel (as Dallas is preaching it as to be) and end up creating more havoc than harmony.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop acting like you're the official king of summoning

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Because I know it's eating you up inside to think that anyone might listen to what I have to say:

http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewt...p?f=17&t=26324

It wasn't even my idea to stack -PDT to tank with a pet. I just took his good idea and made it a perfect idea. Props to the idea originator, Skyfaller.

Yes, my original idea was "melee for mp." It still works. I can't be bothered if you don't have any ideas.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I just don't want new SMNs out there to think this is the gospel (as Dallas is preaching it as to be) and end up creating more havoc than harmony.

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I agree SMN melee is not the only way, I just feel his idea is sound in theory. Trying to think of the best way to word what I'm trying to convey.

While his methods lead desiring, his theory is sound. We should look into it openly.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I just don't want new SMNs out there to think this is the gospel (as Dallas is preaching it as to be) and end up creating more havoc than harmony.

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Why not let new summoners find this out for themselves? They will either find out the like it or they don't. Those that do will take off with it and push this style to the limits and discover some rather interesting results we haven't found out yet. Frankly I'm very curious about what Dallas has found out yet. I remember him pushing the melee point for a long time back on Ffxiclopedia's forums when he and Miraum would go at it for pages and pages in discussion.

I think his play style has quite a bit of merit, especially now with atmas, and once I complete my Emp weapon I plan on trying it out to the fullest myself just so I can explore different play styles with my smn job.

so this thread is now focusing on why SMN should or should not melee... rigth...

as a pet job user (PUP) i dont see why on a regular experience mob a SMN should not melee. seriously this is not the bird meripo world that we used to live in anymore, and you wont see a summoner meleeing on a big nm, because surprise! No one does, until all procs are done and you actually need to kill the thing, and everything goes down so fast that it is hardly of any importance who is meleeing or not.

what i love about this new era, is that apparently, all jobs are doing what they are supposed to do, blm is top nuker, rdm is enfeebler,whm is the top healer, smn is a dd, and so on and so fort, and some even found new roles, like monk tanking for example.

I for once welcome our new SE overlords for doinitrite.

any pet job, and any other job for that matter, can melee if they choose at their own risk! Honestly, as long as you're getting your role in the party done who cares if you're waving a big stick around? Oh sure, the same people who always complain about "you're just feeding the mob TP" will do so, but since every melee DD on it is doing the same it's a very stupid argument. Noone was advocating meleeing on magic-only strats.

In aby there's a very practical reason for mages to melee... !! procs. If the mages are covering staff, club, dagger, scythe and sword procs then the other DD can focus on the other weapons, and the mages don't need to waste an Atma on regain, taking away from those things that do benefit their job most.

But be warned mages, if you die meleeing you are generally on your own! After all, you are the one with access to raise/reraise, not the DD as a rule. You are also the ones with all the cures! Sure dancer, but if the dancer is DD he may not have TP when you get whacked for 80-90% of your HP in 1 whack. And if you are doing your mage role, too there's a pretty good chance you will be taking hate at some point, especially in these tankless days.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Why not let new summoners find this out for themselves? They will either find out the like it or they don't. Those that do will take off with it and push this style to the limits and discover some rather interesting results we haven't found out yet. Frankly I'm very curious about what Dallas has found out yet. I remember him pushing the melee point for a long time back on Ffxiclopedia's forums when he and Miraum would go at it for pages and pages in discussion.

I think his play style has quite a bit of merit, especially now with atmas, and once I complete my Emp weapon I plan on trying it out to the fullest myself just so I can explore different play styles with my smn job.

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For his idea to work for new summoners, that would require a lot of effort in their part. We seen average players, do you expect people in general to give a hoot about SMN enough to put themselves in Dallas's level? Yes, he seems to be a top rank SMN, but that is because he worked hard at it. Do you expect others to have the same level of dedication that Dallas has?

Instead, they will be substandard DDs where they might, more than likely, have a different job that would do the same thing he is doing, but much better. Much much better.

There are already melees out there doing the same thing Dallas is doing. If Dallas put in the same amount of effort in WAR than he has in melee SMN, then he would be a top notch WAR and do a lot more damage and be a lot more useful than he would be as a melee SMN. SMNs are not ment to do the magnitude of damage they do by meleeing, that is the avatar's job. Being able to switch out damage types, magical damage, and buff all at once is what makes SMNs so special.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

any pet job, and any other job for that matter, can melee if they choose at their own risk! Honestly, as long as you're getting your role in the party done who cares if you're waving a big stick around? Oh sure, the same people who always complain about "you're just feeding the mob TP" will do so, but since every melee DD on it is doing the same it's a very stupid argument. Noone was advocating meleeing on magic-only strats.

In aby there's a very practical reason for mages to melee... !! procs. If the mages are covering staff, club, dagger, scythe and sword procs then the other DD can focus on the other weapons, and the mages don't need to waste an Atma on regain, taking away from those things that do benefit their job most.

But be warned mages, if you die meleeing you are generally on your own! After all, you are the one with access to raise/reraise, not the DD as a rule. You are also the ones with all the cures! Sure dancer, but if the dancer is DD he may not have TP when you get whacked for 80-90% of your HP in 1 whack. And if you are doing your mage role, too there's a pretty good chance you will be taking hate at some point, especially in these tankless days.

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While I agree with you in most of the post, the middle paragraph, I just have one thing to say: Abyssite of Discernment would like to have a word with you.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

any pet job, and any other job for that matter, can melee if they choose at their own risk! Honestly, as long as you're getting your role in the party done who cares if you're waving a big stick around? Oh sure, the same people who always complain about "you're just feeding the mob TP" will do so, but since every melee DD on it is doing the same it's a very stupid argument. Noone was advocating meleeing on magic-only strats.

In aby there's a very practical reason for mages to melee... !! procs. If the mages are covering staff, club, dagger, scythe and sword procs then the other DD can focus on the other weapons, and the mages don't need to waste an Atma on regain, taking away from those things that do benefit their job most.

But be warned mages, if you die meleeing you are generally on your own! After all, you are the one with access to raise/reraise, not the DD as a rule. You are also the ones with all the cures! Sure dancer, but if the dancer is DD he may not have TP when you get whacked for 80-90% of your HP in 1 whack. And if you are doing your mage role, too there's a pretty good chance you will be taking hate at some point, especially in these tankless days.

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I feel the same way when I want to contribute to some more damage, I'm on my own! nobody gonna cure my ace! lol

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Originally Posted by Korpg

If Dallas put in the same amount of effort in WAR than he has in melee SMN, then he would be a top notch WAR and do a lot more damage and be a lot more useful than he would be as a melee SMN.

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Care to expand your "go level another job" argument to the other 3 pet jobs in this thread, none with the killing power of a top-notch WAR? As long as top notch SMN is better than an "average WAR," I'm going to be invited to DD every time.

Tannlore, I've just made large leaps in my Hvergelmir build. I'll be posting on my build soon. :D

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Care to expand your "go level another job" argument to the other 3 pet jobs in this thread, none with the killing power of a top-notch WAR? As long as top notch SMN is better than an "average WAR," I'm going to be invited to DD every time.

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If average means Harby WAR, then yes, you will beat an "average WAR."

If average means Emp+1, the actual standard now, then no, you will never beat an "average WAR."

But even then, you have to go to great lengths and effort to create a weapon that would do about as much damage meleeing (with your avatar counted, of course) and weaken your avatar to compensate your gear needed to actually hit an 80% hit rate with 21% haste (or is it 23% now, your numbers keep changing) to try to beat an undergeared WAR.

As for the other jobs, I'm absolutely positive that BST and DRG can do more damage than me, well geared and with Emp weapons at 90 that is. But then again, they are given the tools to do so. PUP too, as far as I can understand. But if I get my Emp weapon, I would be able to give them a run for their money. Even for the gear I got I can still keep up with the damage as they can produce, but I would require buffs (food) to do so.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

While I agree with you in most of the post, the middle paragraph, I just have one thing to say: Abyssite of Discernment would like to have a word with you.

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u still gotta whack something to get hints...

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Originally Posted by Korpg

If average means Emp+1, the actual standard now, then no, you will never beat an "average WAR."

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That wasn't a question. All top pet jobs surpass the average WAR.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

That wasn't a question. All top pet jobs surpass the average WAR.

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You got proof to back that assertion up?

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Now, I know i never invite SMNs anymore as "Gimp healers", i invite them as a DD, and while it may not be much, a SMN who is meleeing with their pet is doing more damage than a SMN who isn't meleeing, assuming they're both of equal intelligence and gear, using proper macros.

So, as a SMN-DD Standpoint, Meleeing with your pet is better than not. little in this game severely needs you to limit their TP, but of course, Situational sh*t is situational, Meleeing wont always be the best way, but for your run-of-the-mill Exp parties, and NMs without devastating AoEs, its actually better.

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Pretty much how I feel. I do think SM can be played many different ways and all of them can be useful. That siad, the SMN has a wide range of tools at its disposal and it's shortsighted at best to just declare one playstyle the best and anything else is gimp, which is what Dallas does.

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I can't be bothered if you don't have any ideas.

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Can't be bothered to what? And I do have ideas. But I don't post them in your presence because it will just turn into a thread about how great you are and how you're right and everyone else except you and people who directly follow your philosophy is wrong. I talk about how I use merit pacts on this one NM, you say nothing useful and just say "oh that's gimp, you're gimping yourself if u don't melee it with DD atma." You're so blinded by how awesome you think you are that you can't consider that there are other ways of doing things.

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I just don't want new SMNs out there to think this is the gospel (as Dallas is preaching it as to be) and end up creating more havoc than harmony.

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+1. It's a strong and useful tool, but we shouldn't be making out anyone who doesn't practice it to be poor players.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

You got proof to back that assertion up?

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That's the nice thing about this exchange. You reached your conclusion a long time ago without asking for proof. Here's what I will do for you: Hver 90 DOT is 7.5% less than Ukon 90 DOT. What "average WAR" weapon do you want to defend?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Can't be bothered to what? And I do have ideas.

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I will have to take your word for it that your ideas are less worthy of +1 posts than what you do feel is important to write.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

That's the nice thing about this exchange. You reached your conclusion a long time ago without asking for proof. Here's what I will do for you: Hver 90 DOT is 7.5% less than Ukon 90 DOT. What "average WAR" weapon do you want to defend?

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What I stated was common fact. What you are giving everyone is your conjecture. There is a difference between the two.

How do you get your numbers? How in the world can you get 95% hit rate on Hver? Even with food the best you can get is 85% on anything important. My gimped Great Sword can hit with more accuracy than a capped and merited SMN can with Staff. It doesn't have to do with skill either, it has to do mainly with accuracy gear. SMNs don't have much for Acc+ gear. Peacock Charm/Amulet, Snipers+1/Adder Ring, Potent Belt (kills some of your haste though, but you can get 21/23% haste without belt slot anyway, right?). Can't think of anything else that gives Acc for SMN though. Maybe its because, you know, SMNs don't really melee that much? I mean yeah, Nirvana has +30 Acc on it, but, we all know you don't have that, so how do you figure you get all this acc gear to compensate for SMNs bad melee skill to be able to do this whole "7.5% lets DOT than Ukon 90" thing?

You still haven't posted your 21/23% haste gear, 7% double attack, and all that "uber" gear you state you have to make your staff melee worthy...

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Maybe its because, you know, SMNs don't really melee that much?

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You got that backwards. SMN don't melee because SE never adds any armors for the job. We are in the situation 2006 PUPs were, with only mage gear options. And they keep failing at each and every update year after year, while they quickly boosted PUPs up to god levels.

The guy in charge of Summoner updates is the history's worst game developer and should be fired post haste. How can you be so dumb that you give WHM and BLM armors to a job without spells? The only thing a Summoner has, is an avatar and a staff. Even a five year old would understand that melee stats is the way to go.

Heck, Summoner hasn't even been treated as a real job since it was added. It is viewed as that cool storyline job with fireworks. What was our first armor? Artificat Armor, and it was a failure. Second? Relic Armor. Third? Austere. Fourth? Empyrean Armor. That's 4 armor sets in 7+ years. We get 5 pieces of armor every second year. Ignored much?

PS. There isn't a single Summoner armor in today's list of new synergy augment armors. There is BLM armors wearable by SMN, but why'd we wear those when they most likely can't get 4 Summoner related augments to make up for the useless BLM stats.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

What I stated was common fact. What you are giving everyone is your conjecture. There is a difference between the two.

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The difference is I don't need to ask for a haste gear build. Zelus/Tern/Goliard/Nashira/ASA, which you would know if you looked where I told you to look. Common facts about melee SMN are available because I posted them.

Hver 90 is 300% better at melee than some lazy SMN weapon like Soulscourge. The average WAR is lazy, just like most SMN. I asked you to pick an "average WAR" weapon for a reason. I trust you to pick something a lazy person can get. That weapon will have a measurable level of gimp compared to Ukon 90, and in turn, to Hver 90.

"Common facts" used to claim 20% accuracy, drain the WHM completely of MP through TP feeding, and my favorite "0 mp Spirit Takers." I didn't work that hard to destroy those. I'll take your 85% accuracy at face value even though you probably made that up. It's not as important as you think.

oh, Acc is important. I'm an elf, I can't hit the ground reliably... while taking a leak!

But seriously, smn does suffer in the melee department, not so much from acc or low, slow damage compared to other jobs, but because even a blm takes a hit better. If you wanna melee go for it, I've never cared as long as you are fulfilling your role in the party build. But you can't fulfill it dead so you better watch that because if you are killing the pt I'll boot you while you are dead without even a moment's regret. It's called priorities, I doubt I invited you for your vast melee prowess to my pt, I invited you for what your pet can do and (usually) to back-up heal. If you can accomplish anything melee, good for you, but I look at it as a bonus, not an expectation.

Your avatars can benefit from Dd Atma, or many others for that matter. You need one for refresh at least to recover from what you use with bloodpacts and the like, even with all your other MP tools if the pt is moving at an acceptable pace, so that will gimp you a bit; solo I say do what you feel.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

The difference is I don't need to ask for a haste gear build. Zelus/Tern/Goliard/Nashira/ASA, which you would know if you looked where I told you to look. Common facts about melee SMN are available because I posted them.

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Zelus: 8% Haste (hat)
Tern Set: 6% Haste (cape/neck/waste)
Goliard: 4% Haste (body)
Nashira: 3% Haste (feet/hands)
ASA: 2% Double Attack/4% Haste. Assuming you got those specific stats on them.
Knowing you, you would wear a Raja's Ring for melee SMN. Maybe an Acc+ ring.

So, your total stats so far is 25% Haste (wow, even your changing numbers were still wrong) and 2% double attack (which really helps you out alot).

Adding Pole Strap gives you 4% double attack. Still don't know your earrings, but that covers every slot that you could equip with acc+ gear on pretty much. That means with your 351 (giving you 8/8 merits on that one) staff skill, you are only adding +13 (as much as +17) accuracy. Meaning, anything that is IT or greater, you are wiffing about 20~25% of the time. And you still compare yourself to "average" WARs, who can get 95% accuracy rate without even trying?

Real effective melee rating if you ask me. Lets also look at your attack while we are at it.

Hmm, +3 from Tern alone? Thats really going to help out a lot with DoT. Unless you wear Att+ earrings.

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Hver 90 is 300% better at melee than some lazy SMN weapon like Soulscourge. The average WAR is lazy, just like most SMN. I asked you to pick an "average WAR" weapon for a reason. I trust you to pick something a lazy person can get. That weapon will have a measurable level of gimp compared to Ukon 90, and in turn, to Hver 90.

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A WAR with a Byakko's Axe could out damage you with your setup. Including Avatar. And thats a "gimp" WAR.

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"Common facts" used to claim 20% accuracy, drain the WHM completely of MP through TP feeding, and my favorite "0 mp Spirit Takers." I didn't work that hard to destroy those. I'll take your 85% accuracy at face value even though you probably made that up. It's not as important as you think.

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I gave you the benefit of the doubt when I said 85% accuracy rate. Also, got to love the bolded part.

If you don't think Accuracy is important, go level an actual melee job. Like DRK.

What is the point in swinging if you can't make sure you hit at least 90% of the time? Even gimp melees hit 90% of the time.

To clarify, I'm going to ignore that 3 items you have used in your calculations have wrong numbers. You forgot Brutal entirely. It's not important, because the person who will melee for DD already has the gear.

Instead, I'm going to wonder how in all your efforts to prove SMN can't hit the broad side of a barn (in Abyssea, where all the barns are) you ignored the DEX modifier to accuracy? RR Atma + Cruor buffs is upwards of +90 DEX. Add that to the 80ish I have natively, and my hit rate is at least 40% better than your calculation, without gear. Capped? It's pretty obvious I am. That has nothing to do with why it isn't important, btw.

So, to be clear, you want to commit to a gimp WAR using an axe that is 26% less DOT than Hver 90, not even considering the high percentage ODD aftermath? You want to argue a weapon half as strong, but in the hands of a WAR, will outperform a SMN? Very well, my attack was 530ish last time I checked. Describe how to double that WAR's output.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

To clarify, I'm going to ignore that 3 items you have used in your calculations have wrong numbers. You forgot Brutal entirely. It's not important, because the person who will melee for DD already has the gear.

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Which 3 items did I use in my calculations with wrong numbers? Was it Tern, with a set bonus of 6% haste?
Zelus, which is Evasion-5 Haste+8%?
Goliard Saio, which has Haste +4%, among other unimportant (but still not melee worthy) stats?

Nashira and ASA has 1 less Haste % than I originally reported, being that I didn't look either up when I wrote that, just going off of memory. I do know that the DA was correct though, seeing so many PLDs wearing DA/Phy- pants....

But, to be clear, you want to commit to a SMN who's main WS of choice is one that does 0 damage to a mob, against a WAR, even with a weaker axe (but you want to commit to Abyssea, so lets do that too) but doing a WS that crits...with atmas that increases crit rate and damage.....and say that they have 26% less DOT?

Yeah, keep going with that. Just remember I'm talking about a gimp WAR, with a very outdated axe, being able to out DOT you.

Oh, and if you want. Wearing a GA, my WAR can get 595 attack naked. Thats right, naked. Forget all that + attack gear I have, or food, or cruor buffs, I have more attack than you do even fully buffed up. Plus Berserk. Lets not forget Job Abilities. I, and most other WARs, can break the 999 cap very easy. Can you?