Mud Spikes, Wind Spikes, and Aqua Spikes

Radiant Breath (Light) vs. Silence (Wind)

Repose (Light) vs. Sleep (Dark)

Radiant Breath (Light) vs. Slow (Earth) vs. Cicimine Discharge (though I do not know what element this is (nor does wiki))

Magnetite Cloud (Earth) vs. Gravity (Wind) vs. Somnolence (Diabolos: Dark)

Ecliptic Growl (Fenrir: Dark) vs. Glittering Ruby (Carbuncle: Light)

Warm-Up (Earth) vs. Feather Barrier (Wind)

Amplification (Water) vs. Dream Shroud (Diabolos: Dark) vs. Memento Mori (Ice) vs. Plenilune Embrace (Light)

Noctoshield (Diabolos: Dark) vs. Phalanx (Light)

To name a few. Yes, a good amount of them are Blue Magic but not all of them.

I think it boils down to the simple point: Noodles was basically trying to say we've got buffs for each element, it's quite possible that's the way it was intended, that's reasonable, surely? Everybody's entitled to their own opinion. I was reading it and saw absolutely no reason for people to get on their high horse.

But of course, I can see a reason for this demand - damage spikes for all the way round on the elemental wheel, it's useful for causing other status effects and also useful for catching an enemy's weakness - like we have with helices, weather spells, bar-spells, en-spells and so on.

Maybe meet it half way and say, "have Aquaveil cause poison".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Radiant Breath (Light) vs. Silence (Wind)

Repose (Light) vs. Sleep (Dark)

Radiant Breath (Light) vs. Slow (Earth) vs. Cicimine Discharge (though I do not know what element this is (nor does wiki))

Magnetite Cloud (Earth) vs. Gravity (Wind) vs. Somnolence (Diabolos: Dark)

Ecliptic Growl (Fenrir: Dark) vs. Glittering Ruby (Carbuncle: Light)

Warm-Up (Earth) vs. Feather Barrier (Wind)

Amplification (Water) vs. Dream Shroud (Diabolos: Dark) vs. Memento Mori (Ice) vs. Plenilune Embrace (Light)

Noctoshield (Diabolos: Dark) vs. Phalanx (Light)

To name a few. Yes, a good amount of them are Blue Magic but not all of them.

---

repose is a light sleep.
thinking about immunies now, flash is light, not dark, you can't blind a skele witch is immune to dark, but can be flashed blind effect

I explained the hybrids like radiant breath, light is for the damae check, the slow is earth, the silance is still wind.

same with diabolos, the damage is dark but gravity effect is wind.


here is a fun one jetterua is dark but the check to get terror is earth/pertified check.

regardless all of this does not show me wrong in anyway

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Juri_Licious

It's not that i'm a fan but I just felt that specific person was attacked just for having an opinion.
So I resorted to being childish because i'm MLG FFXI.

---

it is not an opinion, it is wrong information.

do you understand there are other buffs that have elements???? (minne, barthunder are earth, they mingate damage, like stoneskin. then you have shell, protect, phalanx is light) she outirhgt dismissed phalanx because it does not support her view. so now she can be "right" and not admit wrong. couse there is other exmaples but that should be enough to show the unfounded view.

then you have:

or more then one stoneskin/ blink effects while only having one blaze spikes?

you can only have one spike spell on but you can have aquaviel and stoneskin and a spike spell on.

reprisal is a spike spell, you cannot have icespikes and it on.

it is unfounded view.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by noodles355

Water Spikes is called Aquaviel
Earth Spikes is called Stoneskin
Wind Spikes is called Blink

---

The problem with Noodles post is that it reads as "You are asking for something we already have." However, I think as has been pointed out, the term "Spikes," as the OP used it, would have a detrimental effect on the mob trying to attack the person buffed with the Spikes. Thus, if you take the term "Spikes" to imply it can have a detrimental effect on the attacker, the three examples listed by Noodles do not meet that criteria. They would simply be buffs with benefit to the person having them but of no detriment to the mob attacking that person. So, the term "Spikes" seems to be what all the disagreement is over.

The whole matter of whether there is a want/need for new buffs which respond to an attack but are passive otherwise is another discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

repose is a light sleep.
thinking about immunies now, flash is light, not dark, you can't blind a skele witch is immune to dark, but can be flashed blind effect

I explained the hybrids like radiant breath, light is for the damae check, the slow is earth, the silance is still wind.

same with diabolos, the damage is dark but gravity effect is wind.


here is a fun one jetterua is dark but the check to get terror is earth/pertified check.

regardless all of this does not show me wrong in anyway

---

You're losing me Rambus. As hard as it is some times to follow what you're saying with the manner in which you write, you are losing me when you say "repose is light sleep". Isn't that...the point? The same can be applied to "I can't land silence on this enemy because it's wind based and immune to wind" > "I can't land blind on this enemy because it's dark based (skeleton) and immune to dark"

You also skipped Noctoshield (Phalanxga) vs. Phalanx, and the MDB 4 way I listed, not to mention Ecliptic Growl vs. Gliterring Ruby.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zyeriis

You're losing me Rambus. As hard as it is some times to follow what you're saying with the manner in which you write, you are losing me when you say "repose is light sleep". Isn't that...the point? The same can be applied to "I can't land silence on this enemy because it's wind based and immune to wind" > "I can't land blind on this enemy because it's dark based (skeleton) and immune to dark"

You also skipped Noctoshield (Phalanxga) vs. Phalanx, and the MDB 4 way I listed, not to mention Ecliptic Growl vs. Gliterring Ruby.

---

i guess you can "get me" with noctoshield, I cannot explain that.

noctoshield phalanx confilits with the real phalanx and w/e is stronger is what stays.
spike spells is w/e used last ( god i hated SMNs doing shiva crap when i was casting reprisal back in the day)

I do not know what MDB 4 is

light and dark have all stat gains, point to staffs and voidstorm, and rings.

though light can be seen as chr + bonuses and affinity to that as well.

I have no idea what light sleep and dark sleep types have to do with buffs though, or the underplaying Argument about how stoneskin, aquaviel and blink do not coincide with spike buffs.

avatars also have wind heal and water heal. I do not know about wind but water has often been affiliate with heals in other games. Maybe summons are an exception? I don’t know.

MDB - Magic Defense Bonus
Note: I meant MAB not MDB, So Magic Attack Bonus not Magic Defense bonus, it just happened that 2 of the ones I mentioned also boost MDB.

4 way - Amplification (Water) vs. Dream Shroud (Diabolos: Dark) vs. Memento Mori (Ice) vs. Plenilune Embrace (Light)

Everything I had in that list caused the same status effects, debuffs or buffs.

You cannot have Repose and Sleep both on the enemy at the same time. They both cause the same status effect: Sleep, which is unaffected by what type of element the spell that casts it is. Which is the point: Just because there's a spell that causes a status effect, and that spell is a specific element does not mean the status effect itself is that element. That way, you're blue magic argument holds less sway. I won't say you have a point with the hybrid blue magic spells but not every blue magic spell I listed is a hybrid spell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zyeriis

MDB - Magic Defense Bonus
Note: I meant MAB not MDB, So Magic Attack Bonus not Magic Defense bonus, it just happened that 2 of the ones I mentioned also boost MDB.

4 way - Amplification (Water) vs. Dream Shroud (Diabolos: Dark) vs. Memento Mori (Ice) vs. Plenilune Embrace (Light)

Everything I had in that list caused the same status effects, debuffs or buffs.

You cannot have Repose and Sleep both on the enemy at the same time. They both cause the same status effect: Sleep, which is unaffected by what type of element the spell that casts it is. Which is the point: Just because there's a spell that causes a status effect, and that spell is a specific element does not mean the status effect itself is that element. That way, you're blue magic argument holds less sway. I won't say you have a point with the hybrid blue magic spells but not every blue magic spell I listed is a hybrid spell.

---

sleep is effected by element,

you cannot sleep (dark) skeles, those eye pets in sandy but can be light slept ( lullaby)

there is sleep I and sleep II effects and if the mob is indifferent to both elements you can resleep the mob with a sleep II effect.

all blu spells as far as im aware are conidered sleep I effect therefore repose/ sleep II will resleep the mob.

there are some hybird stuff i guess but you where not proposing hybrid effects. useally the domant effect repenects the spell like Plenilune Embrace is a cure more so then attack/mab support. sure if you are doing a hybird you have a bit more room to play with to keep with current game logic but it should be traced somehow.

I really don't know to explain it any clearer then: It's the spell itself that gets resisted/immune to due to it's element properties (Sleep the spell gets resisted by skeletons because it's dark in nature) not the status effect. There's non-magic ways to sleep thing such as Shockwave (Great Sword WS) and Pinecone Bomb (Physical Blue Magic) that can sleep these enemies, such as skeletons, because they don't have a particular element because they are not elemental moves. The same logic applies to the fact that spell versions are resisted because the spell itself is based in an element where as the resulting status effect is not. Yes, there are monsters that are completely immune to status effects such as sleep but that is not elemental immunity which is spell based, not status effect based.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zyeriis

I really don't know to explain it any clearer then: It's the spell itself that gets resisted/immune to due to it's element properties (Sleep the spell gets resisted by skeletons because it's dark in nature) not the status effect. There's non-magic ways to sleep thing such as Shockwave (Great Sword WS) and Pinecone Bomb (Physical Blue Magic) that can sleep these enemies, such as skeletons, because they don't have a particular element because they are not elemental moves. The same logic applies to the fact that spell versions are resisted because the spell itself is based in an element where as the resulting status effect is not. Yes, there are monsters that are completely immune to status effects such as sleep but that is not elemental immunity which is spell based, not status effect based.

---

those are dark type sleeps actally lol, those sparked my interest in finding other elemental properties to such things. well i think shockwave is dark, i did test pinecone bomb though, def dark, and sleep I effect.

tested both just now, both are dark.

Not being funny but i really can't see a use to Slow spikes or w/e

If ya want slow to land on a mob, cast slow?

Even blaze and ice spikes are never really used

I know a few pple that use shock spikes when soloing but thats it.

If you want to invent a new Spike type they would have to be worth using like i dunno Terror Spikes or a Spikes type that helps enmity loss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rezeak

Not being funny but i really can't see a use to Slow spikes or w/e

If ya want slow to land on a mob, cast slow?

Even blaze and ice spikes are never really used

I know a few pple that use shock spikes when soloing but thats it.

If you want to invent a new Spike type they would have to be worth using like i dunno Terror Spikes or a Spikes type that helps enmity loss.

---

Grand majority of people I've seen seem to prefer Ice spikes. Yes you can cast "Paralyze" like you can "Slow", however the potency of "Paralyze" from Ice Spikes is much greater than the spell. I think his general idea insinuated from "Mud Spikes" would be it's "Slow" would be more powerful than the standard "Slow" spell.

*the following post is an opinion only so chill out*

I kinda agree with Noodles not that I'm saying you guys are wrong. But I always saw the blaze, ice and shock spikes and stoneskin, aquaveil and blink as two sides of the same coin and an elemental wheel of sorts. The fact WHM gets the purely Defensive buffs and BLM gets the offensive ones and RDM gets both as its the middle ground job to me supports this. To me the real reason you can only have 1 spike spell on and all three defensive buffs is the same reason you can only have one enspell one at a time i.e nowhere in the game to my knowledge can we inflict two types of elemental damage at a time not that they aren't a related set of spells

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razushu

*the following post is an opinion only so chill out*

I kinda agree with Noodles not that I'm saying you guys are wrong. But I always saw the blaze, ice and shock spikes and stoneskin, aquaveil and blink as two sides of the same coin and an elemental wheel of sorts. The fact WHM gets the purely Defensive buffs and BLM gets the offensive ones and RDM gets both as its the middle ground job to me supports this. To me the real reason you can only have 1 spike spell on and all three defensive buffs is the same reason you can only have one enspell one at a time i.e nowhere in the game to my knowledge can we inflict two types of elemental damage at a time not that they aren't a related set of spells

---

why does drk get drain spikes and blm does not?

why does PLD get light spikes and whm does not?

why does SCH get 3 spike spells?

so like I said in my other posts explaining elements I really do not understand how people have this view.

skillchains is muli damgic damage, then you have abyssea elements that are multi element.

you can have burn/ choke/ shock on you for exmaple and not the other 3 so why are you able to buff your self with stone (stoneskin), water(aquavail), light(phalanx, shell, protect....), fire (attack support), wind(haste/evade up...), and dark (drain spikes) all at once?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

why does drk get drain spikes and blm does not?

why does PLD get light spikes and whm does not?

why does SCH get 3 spike spells?


so like I said in my other posts explaining elements I really do not understand how people have this view.

skillchains is muli damgic damage, then you have abyssea elements that are multi element.

you can have burn/ choke/ shock on you for exmaple and not the other 3 so why are you able to buff your self with stone (stoneskin), water(aquavail), light(phalanx, shell, protect....), fire (attack support), wind(haste/evade up...), and dark (drain spikes) all at once?

---

reprisal and dread spikes came after the what I and clearly others share this opinion could refer to as the elemental wheel of buffs and as such were probably just buff to the respective jobs and not part 2 of the elemental spikes spell addition Whm doesn't get reprisal because it was implemented for PLD same with drk and blm and SCH gets the 3 spikes as well as the 3 defensive buffs meaning both "middle mages" get both sides of the coin so to speak adding to my view that these six could be a family set and reprisal, dread spikes, phalanx and any other random spell you want to mention are just spells and not linked. plus light and dark are never really linked to the other six elements they're kind of a seperate system as they're realted to but not fully linked to the other six.

Anyway your inital premise of theres why are there not spikes for every element? could be asked as why are there not elementally inspired buffs (Stoneskin, BLink, Aquaveil) for all elements the simplest answer is they complete a family of spells with the spikes

Still fail to see how that is a decent enough reason (based upon opinion) to deny the idea of adding 3 new "true" spike spells for the elements that lack them. Same for the "opposite side of the coin" by adding fire/lightning/ice spells to coincide with ss/blink/aquaveil. You can deny dread spikes and reprisal all you want for whatever reason you fancy ("they don't count! they were added later!" > yes...they added extra spike spells at a later time...wait...thats the idea) but it is still an empty reason.

The most legitimate reasons I've seen so far are "over-powered possibly" or "useless possibly" which are true about anything plausibly addable to the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razushu

reprisal and dread spikes came after the what I and clearly others share this opinion could refer to as the elemental wheel of buffs and as such were probably just buff to the respective jobs and not part 2 of the elemental spikes spell addition Whm doesn't get reprisal because it was implemented for PLD same with drk and blm and SCH gets the 3 spikes as well as the 3 defensive buffs meaning both "middle mages" get both sides of the coin so to speak adding to my view that these six could be a family set and reprisal, dread spikes, phalanx and any other random spell you want to mention are just spells and not linked. plus light and dark are never really linked to the other six elements they're kind of a seperate system as they're realted to but not fully linked to the other six.

Anyway your inital premise of theres why are there not spikes for every element? could be asked as why are there not elementally inspired buffs (Stoneskin, BLink, Aquaveil) for all elements the simplest answer is they complete a family of spells with the spikes

---

They are not in the family of spikes because they do not override eachother.
Thery are not in the same family because they do not do the same fuction.

you can have blink, stoneskin, and aquavail on with one of the spike spells.

explain how blink stoneskin and aquavail is part of this "buff family" when you can have all 3 at once.

you only get 1 en effect, one covers each element.

how come in the past they only have fire thunder and ice spikes, later came out with light spikes then later with drain spikes?

it means they are missing elements in the past and still missing them.

they have buffs allined to other elements, it is called shell, protect, phalanx, bard songs, bar spells, so on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Still fail to see how that is a decent enough reason (based upon opinion) to deny the idea of adding 3 new "true" spike spells for the elements that lack them.

---

it doesn't that is why i said it was irrelevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Still fail to see how that is a decent enough reason (based upon opinion) to deny the idea of adding 3 new "true" spike spells for the elements that lack them. Same for the "opposite side of the coin" by adding fire/lightning/ice spells to coincide with ss/blink/aquaveil. You can deny dread spikes and reprisal all you want for whatever reason you fancy ("they don't count! they were added later!" > yes...they added extra spike spells at a later time...wait...thats the idea) but it is still an empty reason.


The most legitimate reasons I've seen so far are "over-powered possibly" or "useless possibly" which are true about anything plausibly addable to the game.

---

Well this sucks having to reply twice GD PC but here I go.

To sum up my theory

elemental wheel buffs (an already complete set)

blaze/ice/shock spikes - offensive
Aquaveil/SS/blink - defensive

evidence for this

BLM offensive mage - offensive buffs
WHM defensive support mage - defensive buffs
RDM mixed mage - both buffs

both sides come together as a set i.e you get one from a side you get the other two.
which pokes a hole in the link between these spells and dread spikes/reprisal as no job that gets the other spikes get these, although it is possible that they added these two to turn 6 into 8 elemental buff spells although Phalanx is probably a better fit lol.
Also theres the fact the 6 celestial elements function somewhat independantly of dark/light so it's probable that a complete set of elemental buffs be they spikes or not would be 6 spells not 8 anyway (see ninjutsu elemental wheel and barspells).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razushu

Well this sucks having to reply twice GD PC but here I go.

To sum up my theory

elemental wheel buffs (an already complete set)

blaze/ice/shock spikes - offensive
Aquaveil/SS/blink - defensive

evidence for this

BLM offensive mage - offensive buffs
WHM defensive support mage - defensive buffs
RDM mixed mage - both buffs

both sides come together as a set i.e you get one from a side you get the other two.
which pokes a hole in the link between these spells and dread spikes/reprisal as no job that gets the other spikes get these, although it is possible that they added these two to turn 6 into 8 elemental buff spells although Phalanx is probably a better fit lol.
Also theres the fact the 6 celestial elements function somewhat independantly of dark/light so it's probable that a complete set of elemental buffs be they spikes or not would be 6 spells not 8 anyway (see ninjutsu elemental wheel and barspells).

---

I never said that I also did not view the current spells as complementing each other. I proposed an idea to increase the ranges of them, wherein that theory is eliminated. SE themselves lowered that theory's likeliness when they added Scholar. Stoneskin, Blink, and Aquaveil all work with Accession while spike spells do not. You can also have stoneskin, blink, and aquaveil up at the same time while you may only have 1 spike spell-type (this includes reprisal and dread spikes) up at any given time. The spike spells also deal damage but offer no self-relevant buffs, they only damage the enemy in one way or another. Yes, that is the argument of yours that Stoneskin and the like are the defensive versions but, again, this is not even close to being remotely reason enough to deny the idea of expanding each side of this "coin theory".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

They are not in the family of spikes because they do not override eachother.
Thery are not in the same family because they do not do the same fuction.

you can have blink, stoneskin, and aquavail on with one of the spike spells.

explain how blink stoneskin and aquavail is part of this "buff family" when you can have all 3 at once.

you only get 1 en effect, one covers each element.

how come in the past they only have fire thunder and ice spikes, later came out with light spikes then later with drain spikes?

it means they are missing elements in the past and still missing them.

they have buffs allined to other elements, it is called shell, protect, phalanx, bard songs, bar spells, so on.

---

same reason you can only have 1 enspell or elemental bar spell on SE decided they only wanted us to have one on at a time.

what about endark and enlight?
wheres dark:ichi and light:ichi?
Can't quite see your point here elemental spell sets come in 6 or 8. enspells 8 ninjutsu 6
Changes absolutely nothing about my point

blaze/ice/shock spikes + aquaveil/SS/blink = 6
or
blaze/ice/shock spikes + aquaveil/SS/blink +dreadspikes/reprisal(or Phalanx) = 8

either way they could be and have been by others here as a complete set

Blaze Spikes / Ice Spikes / Shock Spikes are offensive.
Aquaveil / Stoneskin / Blink are defensive.

Nonetheless, there is a possibility of the original suggestion of the op. That is, to add corresponding buffs for each of the previously offensive elements. Therefore, you can have your Aqua Spikes, Mud Spikes, and whatever you called the air spikes, but you would also need to make a defensive set for Fire, Ice, and Thunder. This would resolve this discrepancy, i.e., you can have Flame which would increase your defense against paralyze, Snow Sheer which would provide an increase to spells cast while engaged, and Thunder Cloud which would decrease your HP by 2 while increasing your MP by 1 while in effect. These are just examples of the alternate way of looking at the possibility of more spikes, of course.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zyeriis

I never said that I also did not view the current spells as complementing each other. I proposed an idea to increase the ranges of them, wherein that theory is eliminated. SE themselves lowered that theory's likeliness when they added Scholar. Stoneskin, Blink, and Aquaveil all work with Accession while spike spells do not. You can also have stoneskin, blink, and aquaveil up at the same time while you may only have 1 spike spell-type (this includes reprisal and dread spikes) up at any given time. The spike spells also deal damage but offer no self-relevant buffs, they only damage the enemy in one way or another. Yes, that is the argument of yours that Stoneskin and the like are the defensive versions but, again, this is not even close to being remotely reason enough to deny the idea of expanding each side of this "coin theory".

---

SCH getting them changes nothing really they got them VERY recently and it doesn't mean there not getting the other 3.
Seems to be the the most likely reason for the limit to 1 spikes or en spell at a time would be they deal damage.
Lots of things don't work with accession making that point moot.
they may expand the set but they're doesn't really seem to be a need imho.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razushu

Well this sucks having to reply twice GD PC but here I go.

To sum up my theory

elemental wheel buffs (an already complete set)

blaze/ice/shock spikes - offensive
Aquaveil/SS/blink - defensive

evidence for this

BLM offensive mage - offensive buffs
WHM defensive support mage - defensive buffs
RDM mixed mage - both buffs

both sides come together as a set i.e you get one from a side you get the other two.
which pokes a hole in the link between these spells and dread spikes/reprisal as no job that gets the other spikes get these, although it is possible that they added these two to turn 6 into 8 elemental buff spells although Phalanx is probably a better fit lol.
Also theres the fact the 6 celestial elements function somewhat independantly of dark/light so it's probable that a complete set of elemental buffs be they spikes or not would be 6 spells not 8 anyway (see ninjutsu elemental wheel and barspells).

---

haste? shell? protect? phalanx? light spikes? dark spikes?

unfounded

and whm able to buff people with 2 different stoneskins? explain that how that supports your view.

i guess we need 7 other elements for stun too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

haste? shell? protect? phalanx? light spikes? dark spikes?

unfounded

and whm able to buff people with 2 different stoneskins? explain that how that supports your view.

i guess we need 7 other elements for stun too.

---

SENSE make some PLEASE!!!

I'm not talking about haste protect and shell etc. yeah we get it theres eight elements and many spells are linked to them my point is that sometimes in this games theres what we could call "families" of spells that are linked sometimes they all share an element i.e Cures sometimes theres 1 for each element i.e bars en-s. your point here is both rambling and irrelevant.

I'm arguing the fact that the six spells I keep refering to are a set.

WHM can't cast Stoneskin on anyone let alone 2 types this is about the SPELL stoneskin you know the one macroed as /ma "Stoneskin" <me> not the stonskin effect so I fail to see how cureskin and use of acession are relevant to this.

stun??????????????? where the hell did this come from? this is the first mention of stun in this thread as far as I can see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razushu

SENSE make some PLEASE!!!

I'm not talking about haste protect and shell etc. yeah we get it theres eight elements and many spells are linked to them my point is that sometimes in this games theres what we could call "families" of spells that are linked sometimes they all share an element i.e Cures sometimes theres 1 for each element i.e bars en-s. your point here is both rambling and irrelevant.

I'm arguing the fact that the six spells I keep refering to are a set.

WHM can't cast Stoneskin on anyone let alone 2 types this is about the SPELL stoneskin you know the one macroed as /ma "Stoneskin" <me> not the stonskin effect so I fail to see how cureskin and use of acession are relevant to this.

stun??????????????? where the hell did this come from? this is the first mention of stun in this thread as far as I can see.

---

you can have spikes and stoneskin/aquaviel/blink on so they are not the same family.

I was killing your argument that whm only got defensive buffs, haste is for offence.
Haste vs blink does not suit your theory so you are ignoring it.

afflatus solace+ cure is a stun effect. whm sub sch to give stoneskin to others.
whm have 2 different stoneskin effects.

there is only one stun element, why does everything need to hold all 8 elements?

There will never be Mud-Spikes (Stupid idea), Water Spikes (Even dumber), or Wind Spikes (the fk?) because they're all terrible ideas and the first post is right.

The basic Core Element Spells i have always considered as "Spike Chain" were "Blaze Spikes" "Shock Spikes" "Ice Spikes", "Blink" "Stoneskin" "Aquaviel".

To further show how right the first poster was.

Fire Elemental - Casts Blazespikes/Enfire
Water Elemental - Casts Aquaviel/Enwater
Thunder Elemental - Casts Shock Spokes/Enthunder
Earth Elemental - Casts Stoneskin/Enstone
Wind Elemental - Casts Blink/Enaero
Ice Elemental - Casts Icespikes/Enblizzard.

Do you see how Each Elemental uses its "spikes" line buff? This is because thats how SE envisioned it. Fire/Ice/Lightning = Offensive "Spikes". Earth/wind/water = Defensive Buffs For only these 6 spells. This is proof. You can deny it all you want, SE intended for those 6 spells to be what you are calling "spikes". This is your proof, Stop debating it. wind Elementals dont Haste themselves, Etc. those arguments are Stupid and Irrelevant and bring this discussion to a whole new level of stupid.

The above buffs are the only buffs those Elementals cast on themselves. Stop and look at the connection, Your point is now invalid.



I won't touch, Dread Spikes seems to have been added as a far far afterthought nearly 6 years later to give DRKs a nice spell. They have nothing to do with the 6-elemental Spell Line buffs.








HOWEVER

If we were going to add "Spikes" to each of those, We would also, TO MAINTAIN EQUIVALENCE, add "buffs" to Fire/Lightning/Ice element. So what would they be? Not they can't be offensive in any way. they need to be Defensive Buffs.

Fire? Can't think of anything :|
Ice? Would think "ice Shield" maybe a Stone-skin for Magic.
Thunder? Can't think of Anything :|

light elementals cast haste (wind spell) and don't cast light spikes reprisal no en light

newer dark elemetals use dread spikes and have no en dark

so what is your point? they are not the same famliy of buffs because you can have "Blink" "Stoneskin" "Aquaviel". with a spike spell on.

why are you ingoring these points because it does not suit your view?

and there is fire, thunder, and water buffs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Swords

I think some don't grasp the concept of "Spikes" as a general game term, not exclusively pertaining to FFXI's spike spells.

Spike terms in games, originated from items like Spike breastplate or spiked shield. Any time you tried to attack someone with such armor, you stood a decent chance of being impaled or injured by the spikes if they were to bash or tackle you. So in game terms, there is no such thing as a defensive "Spikes" unless it retaliates with damage in some way.

I don't think I would mind seeing new forms of spike spells, but I'm not sure they would be practical where many of the newer NM's have become increasingly resistant or immune to debuffs.

---

this is more reason they are not spikes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

you can have spikes and stoneskin/aquaviel/blink on so they are not the same family.

I was killing your argument that whm only got defensive buffs, haste is for offence.
Haste vs blink does not suit your theory so you are ignoring it.

afflatus solace+ cure is a stun effect. whm sub sch to give stoneskin to others.
whm have 2 different stoneskin effects.

there is only one stun element, why does everything need to hold all 8 elements?

---

when I said defensive buffs I was refering to the 3 we keep coming back to lol.
As in WHM is the defensive/support mage so of this family of spells they shall have the defensive side

the only thing you're killing is my patience.
You can have blaze spikes and haste too your point is as irrelevant here as ever.
I'm not ignoring it I'm aware it's there I use it often as both my jobs lol.
Your point of there being many spells per element still lacks.... well a point I'm aware of this fact, everyone who gets past level 10 is probably aware of this fact, that doesn't stop certain spells from falling into subgroupings together within this system.

Cure + stun?

Again a /ja that adds a mini stoneskin effect and a ja that augments certain spells when used hold no relevance here we're discussing the possiblity/probabilty that blaze/ice/shockspikes and aquaveil/stoneskin/blink form a elemental wheel of buffs.

back to stun again... there is only one stun spell and it has a specific effect for your attempt at comparision to work here we'd need 5/7 other spells of the other elements that each did a different thing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

light elementals cast haste and don't cast light spikes reprisal no en light

newer dark elemetals use dread spikes and have no en dark

so what is your point? they are not the same famliy of buffs because you can have "Blink" "Stoneskin" "Aquaviel". with a spike spell on.

why are you ingoring these points because it does not suit your view?

and there is fire, thunder, and water buffs.



this is more reason they are not spikes.

---

Light Elementals Are Completely Unique. They also cast Blink, Stoneskin, and Aquaviel, a long with Haste, Protect and shell. They are Unique elementals and do not follow the basic core concepts of the 6 Elementals. Being Wind, Water, thunder, Earth, Fire, Ice

Everyone but you can apparently see that Blink/Stoneskin/Aquaviel and Blaze/Shock/Ice Spikes follow an Elemental "buff" line (Used by Elementals themselves) that consist of "3 Offensive" and "3 Deffensive" elemental buffs. Unique to Each Particular Element.

Light/Dark Elementals are completely unique in themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Light Elementals Are Completely Unique. They also cast Blink, Stoneskin, and Aquaviel, a long with Haste, Protect and shell. They are Unique elementals and do not follow the basic core concepts of the 6 Elementals. Being Wind, Water, thunder, Earth, Fire, Ice

Everyone but you can apparently see that Blink/Stoneskin/Aquaviel and Blaze/Shock/Ice Spikes follow an Elemental "buff" line (Used by Elementals themselves) that consist of "3 Offensive" and "3 Deffensive" elemental buffs. Unique to Each Particular Element.

Light/Dark Elementals are completely unique in themselves. .

---

abyssea elements are fusion types, seem to relfect on level 2 scs, i was not talking about abyssea.

"i want to agure the 6 elements and forget light and dark because it suits my view"
you do not grasp what a spike concepts is, see the guy i quoted from page 1.

ok

unfounded

Well, if we're going by that then I guess 'dread' just adds a dark element.

Fire - Blaze Spikes
Water - Aquaveil
Thunder - Shock Spikes
Ice - Ice Spikes
Stone - Stoneskin
Air - Blink
Dark - Dread Spikes (/Endark), Dark Knight exclusive.

All we'd need is a Light Element version for PLD, like you get Enlight. A buff - perhaps something that absorbs enfeebles or offers a buff PLD's need - as a PLD10, I wouldn't really be able to comment on what a PLD needs right now, but if you've got a buff that'll absorb silence, sleep, dispel, paralysis and stun on a Paladin, as I can image them being annoying enfeebles for a PLD tank that perhaps hinders some of their ability to sustain hate - maybe a PLD could comment. And because it would wear once it has absorbed its limit and would be PLD exclusive it wouldn't be making bar-spells or -na spells redundant either.

I understand the Dread Spikes was added much later and has nothing to do with the original set, other than to work as an attempt to add to Dark Knight's spell casting side of things, but I think logically speaking, after dread spikes you need a PLD exclusive light elemental buff that works to the same nature as other spells just to remain balanced.

Or make a set of buffs and a set of spikes for each element as just said. It's working out how to do it. I guess my PLD version of spikes would be one,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

abyssea elements are fusion types, seem to relfect on level 2 scs, i was not talking about abyssea.

"i want to agure the 6 elements and forget light and dark because it suits my view"

ok

unfounded

---

Its because Light and Dark Elementals Are Fundamentally Different. Than the 6 Core-element Types. And i already addressed your LIght Elemental. Its a WHM by class. It appears to cast all WHM based buffs on itself to an Extent. Where as the DRK elemental appears to be a DRK/BLM type. and as such has no buffs.

The other 6 Elementals Appear to follow now job-Specific Casting Type. Able to cast their own Unique Buffs on themselves (Aquav/Blink/Stonesk/spikes). Is what I'm trying to convey.

Are you purposefully being thick headed just so people lose their temper at you and eventually get banned from here because they eventually snap and go crazy toward you?

Its working if you are.

Edit: (For Rambus)Dread Spikes was added nearly 6 years after the Original Elemental Buffs. They are irrelevant. They have nothing to do with the Original 6 Elemental Buffs Specific to the Elemental Family Enemies. They are, For lack of better words, an Uncreative name given to a spell designed to make Dark Knights recover HP lost from hate/Souleater.

This is proven by how Original-area Dark Element Enemies do not have Access to said spell, Only Abyssea-Dwelling Elementals do. DRK mobs get it, the Dark-Elemental Does not. As such is it not a Core-Elemental Buff of the 6 Elementals (Light/Dark Excluded).

(For Guy above me)
If we were going down that Path, Light would require a Unique Buff. Since Dark filled another "Spikes", Light would need a "Buff" to balance the 8 Elements instead of the 6. So maybe Reflect? Seems Light-Based. its a "Defensive" buff to say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

abyssea elements are fusion types, seem to relfect on level 2 scs, i was not talking about abyssea.

"i want to agure the 6 elements and forget light and dark because it suits my view"
you do not grasp what a spike concepts is, see the guy i quoted from page 1.

ok

unfounded

---

who cares what "spikes" are in other games this is FFXI so what spikes are here is the only thing that matters.
For someone who throws around the accusation of ignoring points you're very guilty of it yourself

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razushu

who cares what "spikes" are in other games this is FFXI so what spikes are here is the only thing that matters.
For someone who throws around the accusation of ignoring points you're very guilty of it yourself

---

He's at the stage in a fight when he realizes he's wrong. But he's too proud to admit it. Now we'll argue for 8 pages until we get more people to support us. Then He'll call us all Elitists or say he's being Ignored.

It happens in every thread someone argues with him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Its because Light and Dark Elementals Are Fundamentally Different. Than the 6 Core-element Types. And i already addressed your LIght Elemental. Its a WHM by class. It appears to cast all WHM based buffs on itself to an Extent. Where as the DRK elemental appears to be a DRK/BLM type. and as such has no buffs.

The other 6 Elementals Appear to follow now job-Specific Casting Type. Able to cast their own Unique Buffs on themselves (Aquav/Blink/Stonesk/spikes). Is what I'm trying to convey.

Are you purposefully being thick headed just so people lose their temper at you and eventually get banned from here because they eventually snap and go crazy toward you?

Its working if you are.

---

are you saying drk/blm? as is /blm sub level? that is wrong.
WG elementals cast dread spikes and PC elementals cast all abs spells ( not sure of new ones prob didnt update it) with sleepga II. they also use a thunder base spell stun.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.] you can only have one spike spell on you ( inclines light/reprisal and dark/dread spikes) if they where meant to be in the same family like bars, weather, en spells, with stoneskin aquavail and blink they would not be able to stack. haste is wind spell but light elementals cast it and not wind, so that alone should reflect elementals cannot be used to reflect buff lines of spells.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

He's at the stage in a fight when he realizes he's wrong. But he's too proud to admit it. Now we'll argue for 8 pages until we get more people to support us. Then He'll call us all Elitists or say he's being Ignored.

It happens in every thread someone argues with him.

---

LOL I hate that stage in an argument it's the worst feeling in the world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

are you saying drk/blm? as is /blm sub level? that is wrong.
WG elementals cast dread spikes and PC elementals cast all abs spells ( not sure of new ones prob didnt update it) with sleepga II. they also use a thunder base spell stun.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.] you can only have one spike spell on you ( inclines light/reprisal and dark/dread spikes) if they where meant to be in the same family like bars, weather, en spells, with stoneskin aquavail and blink they would not be able to stack. haste is wind spell but light elementals cast it and not wind, so that alone should reflect elementals cannot be used to reflect buff lines of spells.

---

Dude light and dark elementals function differently from the other six

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

are you saying drk/blm? as is /blm sub level? that is wrong.
WG elementals cast dread spikes and PC elemetnals cast all abs spells ( not sure of new ones prob didnt update it) with sleepga II. they also use a thunder base spell stun.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.] you can only have one spike spell on you ( inclines light/reprisal and dark/dread spikes) if they where ment to be in the same family like bars, weather, en spells, with stoneskin aquavail and blink they would not be able to stack. haste is wind spell but light elementals cast it and not wind, so that alone should reflect elementals cannot be used to reflect buff lines of spells.

---

Please, Listen Carefully.

There Are Six Core Elements in Vana'Diel. They are. Fire, Water, Thunder, Earth, Wind, and Ice. These Elements are Represented throughout Early Vana'diel as Elementals. Each Elemental gets its own Unique Buff Specific to its Element. Light and Dark Elementals themselves are Unique Opposing Elements. And until recently neither had a Unique buff. Light Elementals Borrowed buffs from the "Defensive" buff Elementals, Including amongst other things Blink, Stoneskin, and Aquaviel. Now, These Key Elemental buffs are:

Wind = Blink
Ice = Ice Spikes
Fire = Blaze Spikes
Thunder = Shock Spikes
Earth = Stoneskin
Water = Aquaviel

These Unique Spells have been adapted to be considered the "Elemental buff" line of Spells. Spells Specific to core Elements of the Elemental Family. They are in Balance with eachother, Containing Three Offensive Buffs, and Three Defensive buffs.

Now, Later in the life off FFXI, Nearly 6-7 Years into the Game. Spells like Dread Spikes Were added. To keep with the game, This Spell was not added to the Original Elements of the FFXI World. However, Post a Certain point (WoTG, Abyssea) They were Added to Dark Elementals, Likely just to make them harder and give them a Buff so they didn't feel left out.
----------------------------------------------------------


Now to Really Repeat this, Every spell in the game has an Element, But its not Relevant to the 6 Core Elemental Buffs. Spikes/Stonesking/etc. They are a Different Series. Think of them like this

you have a Spell series, lets say "Fire". They are
"Fire"
"Fire II"
"Fire III"
"Fire IV"
"Fire V"

These are the "Fire" Line of Spells. They are Spells that fall into the Category "Single Target "Fire" Spells". You have other Spells similar to this though, like "Firaga". But they are Different, and are not "Single Target Fire Spells". They may appear Similar. But one is "Fire" the other is "Flare" or "Firaga". While similar in type, are different in some ways. "Flare" is an "Ancient Magic" like "Freeze" its its own unique category of spell., while "Firaga" is Area of Effect, like "Thundaga, Diaga, etc". Do you see the Correlation yet? How spells, though seemingly of the same type (I.e haste/blink) fall under different categories?


In the same way, the "elemental Buffs" are their own tier of "Spells". think of them not like "All buffs" think of them as "Core Elemental Buffs" they are

"Blink"
"Stoneskin"
"Aqauveil"
"Shock Spikes"
"Blaze Spikes"
"Ice Spikes".

These are all considered "Elemental Buffs". not like the "Fire" Spell example, there are other buffs, for instance, "Wind" has "Haste", But its not a Part of the "Elemental Buff" Series. Its a Different Spell. Its shown by the fact Wind Elementals do not cast Said Spell on themselves.

Its not a Difficult concept to Grasp. Dread Spikes was added years after these Core Elemental Buffs, as Such is an Irrelevant Spell. If it were to become Relevant, We would also need to see a Light-based-Defensive Buff Unique to Light-elemental in order for a True Balance to be maintained. SE probably thought "Light Elementals can cast Pro/Shell/etc, but dark Elemental is the only one of the 8 who cannot cast a buff, we added that DRK spell Dread Spikes, Lets give it to them in Later zones".

Dread Spikes was at best an uncreative name given to a spell for DRKs, It had/has nothing to do with the 6 Elemental Buffs, They simply share a similar naming pattern. but it in itself, Regardless of being used later on, Is its own unique line of Buffs, separate form the "Elemental Buff" Series above.

Please, really try to understand what I'm saying. I'm really trying to explain it best i can.

light and dark are elements, stop forgetting them because it suits your agurment.

and there is plenty of light, dark, fire, earth, water, wind, ice, thunder buffs.

there is also meny forms of stoneskin and blink and yet one fire spikes? why?

but..but .. it was not like that in RoZ omg! what you think this thread is about? completing the line

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

light and dark are elements, stop forgetting them because it suits your agurment.

---

I'm not Forgetting them. I've Addressed them, You just don't get it.

Their "A.I" Is fundamentally different from The Other 6 Elementals. I'll try to make this as kindergarten as possible.

Think of "Light and Dark elementals" like Mage Quadavs. They have a different A.I than say, a Warrior Quadav. Now think of the "6 Elementals" as "Warrior Quadavs".

"Warrior Quadavs" Cast no spells, and immediately enter Melee Range, while "Mage Quadavs" stand out of Melee range until 75% HP, they also Nuke, or Buff themselves.

while Similar Families, They are Fundamnetally different in both A.I and behavior. The Same can be said for Light/Dark Elementals, and the 6 Basic Element-Elementals.

They are of the same Family, but have different A.I/behavior patterns.