Paladin: Possibilities

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

As for PLD not being a DD, I completely agree. I did not level Paladin to be a DD, I leveled it to be able to protect people from damage by taking it on myself. That is why I have Samurai and Dragoon to DD with.

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I totally agree with this 1000%

We need to keep the characteristics of jobs intact. Less of this whining about "Why can't my BRD melee!?" that only blurs the line between jobs, making them all bland and tasteless.

Modifications #4

1) Cover

-1E) Reverse Enmity Loss while covering some one
This idea is likely the simplest so far, regarding cover. While you are covering some one with cover in it's current form, you are essentially getting in the enemy's way. Attacks you take are in technicality directed at the person behind you, not you. Thus, Cover should be adjusted to lower the enmity of the person you are protecting whilst at the same time, increasing your enmity because you are aggravating the enemy by blocking it from it's intended target. You shouldn't lose enmity while covering some one else basically (from damage or otherwise).

3) Enmity

-3A) Raise it or Remove it for PLD specifically

--3a) Slight raise to enmity (Paladin specific)
This is a clarification addition to the enmity cap paladin-specific raise. Some might argue that raising the enmity cap for Paladin only is game breaking and then Paladin would be able to hold hate 100% of the time. This is simply not true depending on the degree of the increase. Increasing the cap enough that Paladin would be able to take and hold hate with a hate grabbing ability (provoke, flash, animating flourish) while not increasing it so much that a few hits wouldn't drop the Paladin's enmity back down below the enmity cap of other jobs wouldn't upset the "difficulty" of holding hate. It would merely allow Paladin to have a slight edge in enmity/hate, making them more viable in this position while blood tanking, which is their intended role.

--3b) Raise the enmity cap across the board, significantly
People can and do argue that any DD job can out enmity-gain a Paladin. This is a possibility (not necessarily the truth). While this is a problem, which there are solutions for in and of itself (see 3B: Paladin Provoke Style Ability and Enmity Control). That is a separate problem, even though it does affect enmity in it's current state. Raising the enmity cap in general would allow for Paladin (with greater enmity gaining capabilities) to prolong how long it can hold hate. Raising the enmity cap would prolong the time it takes to reach the enmity cap. If Paladin can gain enmity faster through job abilities and spells than DDs spamming damage, then Paladin would be able to hold hate for longer before the enmity cap is reached.

Granted this would not solve the issue of what would occur when the DDs catch up because the PLD is stuck at the cap but, this solution is about prolonging this eventuality, not getting rid of it. Raising the enmity cap may also cause some type of disturbance mage-side because, let's face it, no one can gain enmity better than a careless mage. However, with job traits like Tranquil Heart appearing on the horizon for Red Mage, and White Mages smart enough to know that enmity - gear is brilliant, this may be less of a problem then I (or anyone else) make it out to be.

5) Shields

-5B) Magic Deflection
Disclaimer: This is potential the most potentially over-powered idea I've come up with thus far. This idea will likely spark discussion, some bad, some good. Try to keep it constructive and on-topic.

Magic evasion. This term denotes "resisting" a magic spell such as fire, reducing it's damage but not annulling its damage. "1 of Player's shadows absorbs the damage and disappears" denotes a player annulling an attack (magic or physical) completely by sacrificing a magical buff and is referred to as "Blink tanking". "Blink tanking" has become extremely popular these days in Abyssea. While not the only reason that Paladin has been left in the dust, it is still one of the big ones.

So, how can Paladin overcome this clear disadvantage? Some will say stack MDB and MDT- gear. While right, it is not always practical to do so, is it? Paladin's will still take damage to some extent (perhaps not even that much less) and will still lose enmity. Enmity, the greatest need of a tank (can't tank if the mob isn't interested in you anymore). Then come people who claim that Paladin needs more DD capabilities to hold that enmity. There is a conflict here. If they give Paladin more DD capabilities then they'll be expected to use DD gear primarily. Where goes that MDB and MDT- gear? Into a macro that you use while the enemy is casting? Yes, that could work, some times but the Paladin would still take damage and still lose enmity.

What does that leave us with? A relatively endless cycle of inevitably that is enmity loss (first because we still take damage from single target magic spells and second because if we switch between melee to MDB gear when it's casting, we're no longer gaining as much enmity to keep up while subsequently losing enmity when we get hit with the spell and take damage anyway).

I am aware, that thus far I haven't actually offered the solution. I needed to affirm the train of thought this idea came from (or at least to try). In any case, the idea here is to add another sub-proc to shield procs against physical attacks. Add a proc against single target magic attacks. Using the shield to "deflect" incoming magic at random (more random than a normal shield proc but not overly random as to make it useless). This does not replace utsusemi tanking as it is not a guaranteed success. However, being able to deflect potential enmity-losing, death-inducing damage with a Paladin's signature shield would be a welcomed addition to a relatively forgotten job.

No one has any input on the later entries to the list?

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

No one has any input on the later entries to the list?

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PLD was one of the most loved/wanted/needed jobs Pre-Abyssea.

The real thing SE needs to look at before implementing major upgrades to combat, jobs, etc, is how the playerbase is going to react. Unfortunately for FFXI, alot of the playerbase just wants to do things "quickly and efficiently" all the time, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to be efficient. But what SE failed to realize, is the characteristics of certain jobs, and how they work in relation to one another.

Without realizing these characteristics, they'll continue to create an imbalance between the jobs. Jobs will be left out by players if there is no "NEED" for them anymore. Melee can take hits easily now, very easily. There's no fear of being KO'd anymore if the Enemy/Boss takes a few swings at you.

PLD is a tank, and should always be a tank. As far as how to fix PLD, you have some great idea's. But I think the general issue on the concept of "Tanking" needs to be addressed.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

PLD was one of the most loved/wanted/needed jobs Pre-Abyssea.

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Only among low/mid-tier linkshells and players who generally did not know better. This has not been the case in the Endgame scene for the better part of half a decade now (2007-ish?). Half a dozen jobs all tanked better than Paladin before Abyssea, and still tank better than Paladin now.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

The real thing SE needs to look at before implementing major upgrades to combat, jobs, etc, is how the playerbase is going to react. Unfortunately for FFXI, alot of the playerbase just wants to do things "quickly and efficiently" all the time, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to be efficient. But what SE failed to realize, is the characteristics of certain jobs, and how they work in relation to one another.

Without realizing these characteristics, they'll continue to create an imbalance between the jobs. Jobs will be left out by players if there is no "NEED" for them anymore. Melee can take hits easily now, very easily. There's no fear of being KO'd anymore if the Enemy/Boss takes a few swings at you.

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Melee could always take hits. Like, seriously, this has never been a problem for melees. The only reason DD jobs got a bad rap for "Dying easily" is because most DDs sucked and didn't carry PDT/MDT sets. A Monk with 40 Def and -50% PDT in gear is going to take way less damage than a "Typical/Classic" Paladin in 600 Defense and 0 PDT.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

PLD is a tank, and should always be a tank. As far as how to fix PLD, you have some great idea's. But I think the general issue on the concept of "Tanking" needs to be addressed.

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Paladin is a sword wielding Melee job with access to White Magic, Shield bonuses, and some Defensive traits/JA. Whether or not that equates to being a tank is up to the players. As it stands, that particular combination is lackluster at best. Tanks do much better avoiding hits entirely than they would "Taking them for less damage". I had to put less damage in quotes because Paladin really doesn't take less damage than anyone else without an Ochain.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Paladin is a sword wielding Melee job with access to White Magic, Shield bonuses, and some Defensive traits/JA. Whether or not that equates to being a tank is up to the players.

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So let's talk about this.

You want everything to be entirely left up to the players? So what is the challenge and fun, in running through a maze that you built yourself? You're going to know every angle, every correct turn and will be near impossible to get lost. Why? Because YOU built it.

The quote above is kind of like saying "Oh WHM is a club wielding job, that has access to White Magic, Club Skills and lots of MP. Whether or not that equates to being a healer is up to the players"

Lol...

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Originally Posted by Akujima

So let's talk about this.

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Okay.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

You want everything to be entirely left up to the players?

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Until it is against the ToS to play jobs any way the players want, this will always be the case.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

So what is the challenge and fun, in running through a maze that you built yourself? You're going to know every angle, every correct turn and will be near impossible to get lost. Why? Because YOU built it.

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No. This is an incorrect analogy. The Developers build the maze. The Players then determine the fastest/best/most efficient course throughout the maze. When Route A takes twice as much time and energy to traverse as Route B, Route A will likely be discarded in favor of Route B.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

The quote above is kind of like saying "Oh WHM is a club wielding job, that has access to White Magic, Club Skills and lots of MP. Whether or not that equates to being a healer is up to the players"

Lol...

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White Mage doesn't have to be a healer. It is simply well equipped to be a healer. Whether or not it is efficient for White Mage to be a healer is left to the determination of the player base.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

No. This is an incorrect analogy. The Developers build the maze. The Players then determine the fastest/best/most efficient course throughout the maze. When Route A takes twice as much time and energy to traverse as Route B, Route A will likely be discarded in favor of Route B.

White Mage doesn't have to be a healer. It is simply well equipped to be a healer. Whether or not it is efficient for White Mage to be a healer is left to the determination of the player base.

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You're assuming that there is 2 correct ways to exit the maze. When in reality, all routes lead to a dead-end except 1. All Routes except Route 1 are incorrect.


As far as leaving how the job is played to the player base... This is exactly the reason why tons of jobs get excluded and are labeled as "Crap".


I will give you one thing GG. You are quite good in twisting others words and concepts, in order for people to sympathize with your point of view. Try harder next time.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

You're assuming that there is 2 correct ways to exit the maze. When in reality, all routes lead to a dead-end except one. All Routes except Route A are incorrect.


As far as leaving how the job is played to the player base... This is exactly the reason why tons of jobs get excluded and are labeled as "Crap".


I will give you one thing GG. You are quite good in twisting others words and concepts, in order for others to sympathize with your point of view. Try harder next time.

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I never assumed there were two routes. Would you rather I had included 3 routes in my expository? 4? There are an infinite number of routes in any given maze when the player is free to move in all four directions. Players will still find the fastest/most efficient route. Players can also eliminate a near infinite amount of routes via common sense. It would not be prudent to go forward and then immediately take a step backwards. Nor would it be at all smart to repeat the above process multiple times. I figured that was common sense.

As for twisting words, kindly refrain from projecting your angst onto me. I have not twisted anything. I have taken your words at face value. Do not blame me if you find yourself unable to properly convey what it is you are trying to say.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

PLD was one of the most loved/wanted/needed jobs Pre-Abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Only among low/mid-tier linkshells and players who generally did not know better.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Do not blame me if you find yourself unable to properly convey what it is you are trying to say.

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Do not tell me "You don't know any better" if you can't figure out what it is I'm trying to say in the first place: The general issue on the "Concept" of Tanking needs to be addressed.

Concept. Concept. Concept. Do you understand what the word means? Because I clearly remember having to explain myself over and over again in "A Ninja without Throwing".

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Do not tell me "You don't know any better" if you can't figure out what it is I'm trying to say in the first place: The general issue on the "Concept" of Tanking needs to be addressed.

Concept. Concept. Concept. Do you understand what the word means? Because I clearly remember having to explain myself over and over again in "A Ninja without Throwing".

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The concept of Tanking, the Paladin job, and the desirability/love/adoration of Paladin pre-Abyssea are three different things. I will not address them together, as that would be a fallacy.

1) Desirability of Paladin pre-Abyssea:

As I already said, only mid/low-tier shells "Loved" Paladin as much as you claim it was loved. Good shells were already using Monk, Samurai, and Dark Knight tanks and killing things twice as fast. In these shells, the only Paladins were pretty much just the established oldies who loved their Aegis/Excal shinies. No Endgame Linkshell of any tier ever needed "More" Paladins. It was not in high demand. Either a shell had their tanks (whether they're Drks, Sams, Rdms, Mnks, or Plds), or they didn't and they weren't really a shell.

2) The Paladin Job:

I actually don't have anything more to say about Paladin. You haven't said anything about Paladin either. I'll leave this as is, as it is moot.

3) The concept of tanking:

It is always better to not get hit than to get hit. Period. Always. Every single time. Zero is always less than any positive number. That is all there is to it. As long as the option to not get hit exists, getting hit will never, ever be preferable, let alone ideal.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

3) The concept of tanking:

It is always better to not get hit than to get hit. Period. Always. Every single time. Zero is always less than any positive number. That is all there is to it. As long as the option to not get hit exists, getting hit will never, ever be preferable, let alone ideal.

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How about this.

Just don't engage in combat ever. Doing that will make you less likely to ever be hit at all.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

How about this.

Just don't engage in combat ever. Doing that will make you less likely to ever be hit at all.

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I can engage in combat and still not get hit. Two birds with one stone. Booyah.

@greatguardian
Arguing about the player's past and present views upon Paladin, regardless of the legitimacy of those views does nothing to further the thought process behind coming up with ways to adjust and repair Paladin as a job.

It. has. nothing. to. do. with. it.

The job is broken, you clearly believe that, so what's your problem? What is your argument? You offer absolutely nothing to the thread, all you do is bring up how much better other jobs are at specific aspects of tanking. So what? That means we shouldn't bother trying to think of ways to correct this? What players think the job currently is, is completely irrelevant to the discussion about making the job useful again. They only serve as the reasons WHY there needs to be a change.

Gear also is not a solution to a job that is broken at it's core just because it's easy to obtain. If that were true, I want them to break every other job in the game and make it so the only way to make those jobs useful is through gear. Oh wait, then how would we get the gear?

Maze analogies? Fine, tell me a reason why they can't make Route A and Route B, the same distance. Things that are different, can't be equal? or do you just not want them to be equal so that people will pick the one you have over the other option 100% of the time?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

3) The concept of tanking:

It is always better to not get hit than to get hit. Period. Always. Every single time. Zero is always less than any positive number. That is all there is to it. As long as the option to not get hit exists, getting hit will never, ever be preferable, let alone ideal.

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Again, Talking about Paladin (and non-blink tanking) in it's current state has absolutely nothing to do with coming up with ideas to equalize the two (other than being the reason/cause, rather than a point of discussion and a "counter-argument").

Stop arguing the cause, start arguing the solution.

Thing is NINs were all over this same argument not to long ago. Why cause PLD got everything they did and more. Before that plds were on the outs till they nerfed BRD/NIN, NIN/BRD, NIN/DRK all before abyssea. Even recently they nerfed RDM tanking and now they taking the Cure cheat from RDM. Though that hurt PLD almost as much, but least they didn't take away anything from the job it self. Look at from SEs point of view at every turn we (the player base) try to find ways to not use pld.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

@greatguardian....

Stop arguing the cause, start arguing the solution.

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Well said man. That entire post was a thing of beauty.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Stop arguing the cause, start arguing the solution.

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Except GG brings up an excellent point of which everyone continues to ignore in this thread, thus making all these solutions, outside of reverting back to the old shield system (with the current proc rate), flawed.

The very core of PLD's job has always been a broken mess. PLD's best role, tanking, has always been competed because the system for Defense and VIT is terribly flawed due to pDIF and level difference.

Shadow tanking is, and always will be the method of tanking vs anything worth throwing a tank at, and since all jobs can get Utsusemi it makes it hard-pressed for any PLD to tank well since they can't keep up with the DPS and spike damage the DDs bring.

Throwing more hate spike/enmity control tools at PLD does not help it, at all.

PLD as a whole has always been the "safety net" job. When your players aren't perfect or well-seasoned, a PLD is great to bring out to secure your victories, but when all your players are very well skilled, PLD loses it's luster. This trend only really changed when Atonement was introduced and gave a big boost to DD PLDs (which is a path worth updating).

If you want this "safety net" trend to end you have to think outside the box for once.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Thing is NINs were all over this same argument not to long ago. Why cause PLD got everything they did and more.

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I think what needs to happen is SE's stand on what the characteristics of each job consist of. At the moment alot of them feel bland, and it's quite hard to feel any difference between them.

MNK's smash stuff, WAR's smash stuff, NIN's smash stuff, THF's smash stuff, SAM's smash stuff, WHM's heal stuff, RDM's heal stuff?... SCH's heal or nuke stuff, BLM nuke stuff. Anyhow... Mage jobs seem to be fairly okay. And nobody is going to argue whether or not a WHM is meant for healing.

NIN when it was first conceived was meant to be a "jack of all trades" melee job. One that could Nuke a little, Throw a little, Melee a little and Tank a little. The spell Utsusemi changed all that forever. Now people started playing NIN as a tank, because they could effectively mitigate damage altogether. NIN as a Sub-Job became the norm for most melee because of Utsusemi. So in actuality, this damage mitigation "fad" that lead to the demise of PLD being useful, was brought about amongst the player base themselves. It's not one particular persons fault, but a fumble on the part of the developers.

The rest of this post, explains what that fumble is.

RPG's have Classes (in this case "Jobs") which are characterized by certain abilities. Most can be summed up in having 6 different qualities which are:

The "Tank"
Melee DD
Ranged DD
"Healers"
"Nukers"
And "Support"


Allowing "Melee DD" to effectively "Tank", will give less importance on "Tank jobs" and their usefulness. Allowing "Nukers" to effectively give "Support" will make "Support role jobs" fail to be as wanted as they should be. Of course, nothing has to be so rigid, as to not allow for some breathing room when it comes to these traits and characteristics. But tipping the scale too far, is when we see the imbalance.

Which leads to my final point...

There's just going to have to be an acceptance of what a Job CAN and CANNOT do. Without this acceptance, there can never be balance when it comes to the definition of Jobs as a whole.

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The only reason DD jobs got a bad rap for "Dying easily" is because most DDs sucked and didn't carry PDT/MDT sets.

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Actually, the only reason DDs got a bad rap was because most healers sucked and insisted on trying to keep a PLD alive instead of curing the real tank.

@Carth
While I have ignored the fact that VIT/Defense to STR/Attack ratio has always been completely broken (I've argued about this in other threads) it doesn't mean I have forgotten about it. Unless of course, you're not specifically talking to me (or at all). I simply haven't gotten around to typing out potential solutions for that aspect. I've rather been focusing on ways that Paladin can be altered/adjusted to fit in the current scheme of things without that level of re-coding (reworking the str/attack vs. vit/defense scale completely which would include rewriting just about every enemy in the game probably to be just as damaging as they are now).

As for enmity/hate control abilities and cap increases helping it at all, that's a matter of opinion. I've proposed a possible (keyword of this thread) solution regarding enmity cap increase in Modifications #4.

I guess I'll get to work on solutions to the busted VIT/defense scale post (modifications #5) tomorrow during the maintenance.

Def and VIT are not broken. They reduce damage by a quite significant amount compared to someone taking hits with their face. Anyone remember the old Dynamis when DDs would get one-shotted by Eagle Eye Shot even from *non* NMs (which would do 500 or less to a PLD)? There's nothing preventing current NMs from having equally dangerous attacks, except the devs chose not to give them any. But then the DDs would just all sub NIN...

Reducing damage by 100% with a 100% proc rate (which is what utsusemi is until the shadows run out) is broken. SE refuses to nerf it, therefore, nothing else they do will fix the real problem, unless they give every NM Hundred Fists, which would be kind of boring.

Players can keep throwing out suggestions (I kind of like the idea of having a check each swing based on mob level vs. ninjutsu skill for the mob to "see through" Utsusemi and hit the player, which would appropriately nerf /NINs and put them at some real risk when they take hate without having too drastic an effect on main NINs) but if SE continues to allow 100% damage reduction with a 100% proc rate, no other method of mitigation is going to be able to equal, let alone surpass it. Utsusemi effectively already *is* permanent Invincible -- except better, because it also works on single-target magic damage.

Ochain: large percentage of damage reduction, but less than 100%; high proc rate, but less than 100%.

Utsusemi: 100% damage reduction, 100% proc rate.

...a level 37 subbable spell is more powerful at avoiding damage than a damn empyreal and we're arguing about what JAs could be adjusted?

P.S. Part of this has to do with haste proliferation making recast timers a joke, but I assume SE isn't going to nerf Haste either, even though they definitely should. It's an unbalanced uber-stat for DDs and god mode for Utsusemi/DD tanks.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Actually, the only reason DDs got a bad rap was because most healers sucked and insisted on trying to keep a PLD alive instead of curing the real tank.

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True enough, ha.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Again, Talking about Paladin (and non-blink tanking) in it's current state has absolutely nothing to do with coming up with ideas to equalize the two (other than being the reason/cause, rather than a point of discussion and a "counter-argument").

Stop arguing the cause, start arguing the solution.

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It has everything to do with the post I specifically replied to. Don't be mad just because two people chose to post about something aside from Paladin Modifications #9001. We were on topic, get over it.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

I think what needs to happen is SE's stand on what the characteristics of each job consist of. At the moment alot of them feel bland, and it's quite hard to feel any difference between them.

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This is because all jobs are fundamentally the same. Jobs do not define your character. Jobs augment your base character with Skills, Traits, Abilities, and Spells. It does not make them function any differently from one another. That is simply how the game was designed, how it works, and how it will always work. This cannot be changed.

What you seem to want is a different game. In all honesty, that may be the best option for you. I'm not trying to tell you to "gtfo", but there is a market for video games for a reason. You seem to dislike how FFXI works from its very core. Your adjustments practically ask for an entirely new game with the Ninja/Final Fantasy label on it. I honestly think you would be happier just trying out different games until you find one that suits you better.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

[B]There's just going to have to be an acceptance of what a Job CAN and CANNOT do. Without this acceptance, there can never be balance when it comes to the definition of Jobs as a whole.

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I refuse to be told what I "Can" or "Cannot" do based on my job. The Developers have always supported the freedom to attempt as wide a variety of techniques as the playerbase wants to. Heck, we have surprised them with our ingenuity quite a few times now. It does not matter how a job is "Meant" to be played, or what role it's "Supposed" to have. We, the players, will find the role that is most effective for it, even if that role is benchwarming.

@Karinya:

Utsusemi's already been nerfed a couple times. I doubt the Devs are in any rush at all to nerf Utsusemi or Haste just because some Paladins complain. That is, more than they've already nerfed them.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

@Carth
While I have ignored the fact that VIT/Defense to STR/Attack ratio has always been completely broken (I've argued about this in other threads) it doesn't mean I have forgotten about it. Unless of course, you're not specifically talking to me (or at all). I simply haven't gotten around to typing out potential solutions for that aspect. I've rather been focusing on ways that Paladin can be altered/adjusted to fit in the current scheme of things without that level of re-coding (reworking the str/attack vs. vit/defense scale completely which would include rewriting just about every enemy in the game probably to be just as damaging as they are now).

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I'm speaking to particularly everyone in this thread, especially ones that say PLD is a tank job and should stay as that, which I agree with, but the problem isn't that PLD is bad at it's job, but rather in every situation, with great players they can take on any NM without a PLD. It's just that if something screws up, PLD is -the- job to bring to stabilize the situation due to Sentinel and cure spamming. Until people realize this there won't be any good suggestions.

Admittedly I didn't look at the Modifications #4 post but now that I did, raising the Enmity cap for PLD is a general step forward but doesn't address the fundamental problem which I've already stated.

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Originally Posted by Karinya_of_Carbuncle

Def and VIT are not broken. They reduce damage by a quite significant amount compared to someone taking hits with their face. Anyone remember the old Dynamis when DDs would get one-shotted by Eagle Eye Shot even from *non* NMs (which would do 500 or less to a PLD)? There's nothing preventing current NMs from having equally dangerous attacks, except the devs chose not to give them any.

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I realize this is just an example but Eagle Eye Shot is (damage of a ranged attack)(*5). This means if a DD takes 200 damage vs a ranged attack, they'll take 1000 damage vs EES. A PLD that takes 150 damage will take 750 damage. The numbers are largely skewed, but I'll be honest. In all the Dynamis runs I've done, I don't think I've ever seen anyone drop from EES. It's always due to Hundred Fists when a PLD isn't around and the DRKs/BLMs are too "occupied" to stun it.

DEF/VIT is quite broken either way. There's a reason why RDM/NIN tanks took less damage even with their crappy VIT stat and subpar defense gear. It's because with Phalanx and -PDT(/-MDT) gear, a RDM can take less atrocious hits from an NM. PLDs also use -PDT because unlike DEF, it scales up until it reaches hard cap. DEF scales down the higher your DEF rating is buffed up due to how calculations work. This is why Defender is generally regarded as "crap" even to PLDs.

VIT in itself is just kinda messy since you need so much of it to find a noticeable effect.

Blu works best for stun locking mnks in dyna. With march and a decent haste build You can have a 4 sec recast on head butt 2 blus can stun lock the mob while one can keep another DD from eating dirt. So PLD one golden event were they would not be /nin can be done with out them at 75, 90, 99. Any nerf to Utsusemi would also be a nerf to PLD. PLDs that refuse to use /nin should be left out.

This is true. a BLU spamming Head Butt removes all the danger from pretty much every old event. 95% hit rate, high magic accuracy. If your mages don't think they can heal heavy 2H DDs, toss a Blue Mage in and they'll be able to.

Modifications #5

2) Combat Roles

-2B) Stabilizer/Savior
This combat role is pretty much what Paladin boils down to in it's current state. They're basically the "back-up" should things go wrong. The problem is this "back-up" is seldom required, let alone is it useful on a day-by-day basis. I, personally, would rather see Paladin get advancement in other areas but, I must post this possible solution regardless.

Why not expand upon Paladin's ability to be there when some one else fails? Give them abilities that can save people from impending doom (cure isn't really what I mean here). -Na spells in particular, such as Cursna, would give Paladin a little more leeway, without replacing White Mages in any way. Yes, Paladin can sub White Mage and get these spells, as can any other Mage but, adding the spells specifically to PLD as a main would allow them to keep their /nin, /dnc, or /war (situation depending) and still have them.

--2a) Reviviscence
Naturally, just giving PLD some -na spells won't help it all invite wise or in truly becoming a full-on savior-esqe job. Reviviscence, a special spell specific to Ferreous Coffin (a Freelancer Campaign NPC) remove weakness from a player. While Ferreous is a White Mage and higher level/tier raise spells are pretty much a white mage's trademark, I see potential in Revivscence being given to Paladin exclusively.

"Why should Paladin get the best Raise spell in the game, that would be nothing more than a gimmick ability to get people to use Paladin again?"

I won't deny that this would be a relative gimmick to give to Paladin but so was giving Refresh to Red Mage. Also, it wouldn't have to be able to raise people, it would just have to remove weakness. Couple that with high mp cost and even higher recast time and it wouldn't be so overpowered (unless of course, you simply have an army of paladin's in your alliance while a small number of people take on the NM without worry). In which case, I am open to suggestions as to how to balance this particular idea out or any other ideas that could be added to this one (savior-esqe role in combat).

6) VIT/Defense

-6A) VIT/STR + Def/Atk Scale
The statistics and formulas behind the calculation has always been broken. No one can deny this (only bring it up repeatedly, by stating something everyone already knows and is completely irrelevant to other ideas thus far in the solutions listings). The thing I don't think anyone knows is as to "why?" this has never been fixed. So, we need to either A) wait for SE to tell us why (like we've been waiting for all these years), B) come up with ideas to get around it without changing the game at all (see: "I want Paladin to DD better"), C) not use paladin (already being done and isn't a solution), or D) request a fix to this broken scale.

I'm going with D (anyone shocked?). However, there are potential problems with doing so. Such as having to rework pretty much every NM and enemy in the game to coincide with the change to the scale. This is no simple, easy, or non-time consuming task I would think. That problem though, is more of a lazy/unwillingness by the dev team to fix something so very broken. That laziness has given us things like "VIT now affects damage taken by critical attacks". Which, no matter how potent this buff to VIT may be does in no way change day-by-day calculations of non-critical/normal damage versus normal defense/VIT, which is the problem. How many NMs can you think of that are notorious for their critical hits?

Some will say that -PDT is the solution here but, they seem to not realize that the jobs that are causing PLD to lose it's place in the game, can also use these things. This is why there needs to be either A) a nerf to DDs being able to wear these -PDT pieces of equipment or B) the scale of STR/attack vs. VIT/defense to be rewritten.

Not only will a rewrite to this flawed scale improve Paladin's useful in survival, it will also affect the enmity gain of the DDs that seek to out-enmity the PLD through damage spam. Enemies will be affected by the increased effectiveness of VIT/defense vs. STR/attack and DD damage capabilities may drop (thus enmity-rate drop) that rely heavily upon STR.

People may be outraged by this: "I can't do ridiculous amounts of damage anymore!? /ragequit" > "They want the game to be balanced? Screw that, I want to be inherently better than other jobs!" > "They're nerfing our ability to survive while at the same time being able to deal tons of damage? That's stupid, I want to be able to do both at the same time regardless of job!". Is it really that big of a deal to level the playing field? They could very well level it without affecting damage output.

@Greatguardian
And I doubt they won't nerf utsusemi just because people complain that it's getting nerfed. Why do you think you should get special treatment because you're not a Paladin?

(Edit: I'm not saying i want a nerf to utsusemi (or that they're going to), as I want Paladin brought up to being useful without it. I'm saying, like most of your "arguments" that it's silly to think that you deserve to be inherently better than another job just because you use a different job: No one should be potentially equal to you?)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

@Greatguardian
And I doubt they're won't nerf utsusemi just because people complain that it's getting nerfed. Why do you think you should get special treatment because you're not a Paladin?

(Edit: I'm not saying i want a nerf to utsusemi (or that they're going to), as I want Paladin brought up to being useful without it. I'm saying, like most of your "arguments" that it's silly to think that you deserve to be inherently better than another job just because you use a different job: No one should be potentially equal to you?)

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I am a Paladin. An old one, and a good one. I've always considered it one of my favorite jobs. Unlike many other posters here, however, I'm in favor of realistic additions to the job rather than nonsense. You want a complete overhaul of the cRatio system. Arcon wants a complete overhaul of the Enmity system. As far as I'm concerned, both ideas are rubbish since you may as well rewrite the entire game from scratch if you want to fundamentally alter the core game mechanics in such a way.

I'm not sure you're understanding what I said earlier, either. Utsusemi and Haste have already been nerfed multiple times in the game's history. I simply find it unlikely that these core attributes are ever going to be considered for yet another nerf simply because a few people are upset that their job is not #1.

I never said that any amount of complaining would stop a nerf. I said that some paltry complaining is not going to cause one.

Can't say I was expecting much from your response Greatguardian. As all I ever see is you basically calling any form of idea that anyone else has "rubbish" (I have literally yet to see otherwise) without any backing or any form of alternative solutions (which is called constructive criticism). "May as well rewrite the game from scatch" isn't much of a counter-argument. Since you're not denying the fact that the system is broken and seem hell-bent on derailing any train of thought on fixing it, I see no reason to continue this irrelevant debate where all you do is try to insult other people, in a passive-aggressive manner.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I simply find it unlikely that these core attributes are ever going to be considered for yet another nerf simply because a few people are upset that their job is not #1.

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For some one claiming that some one else is not understanding what you're saying, you sure do not read much of what other people say. Evading the "equality" statements still while repeatedly saying "it's broken but, don't fix it".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I never said that any amount of complaining would stop a nerf. I said that some paltry complaining is not going to cause one.

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I am still waiting on an actual response to what I said regarding this. This doesn't count as one as it completely misses the point (that people complaining is irrelevant to fixing something, that you yourself admit, is broken, whether it's a nerf or not and regardless of which imaginary side of the fence the people complaining are on or how many people are complaining).

Note: I used the word imaginary because you're basicaly making up a conflict between 2 groups that don't exist (unless you consider yourself to be the other group by yourself). Imaginary Group A wants to be equal to Imaginary Group B, not superior.

Maybe make cover "always on" and give me the other persons hate when the cover message hits the chat log. In chunks, each time the message appears. Pulled hate? Get behind me and make that hate mine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Some will say that -PDT is the solution here but, they seem to not realize that the jobs that are causing PLD to lose it's place in the game, can also use these things. This is why there needs to be either A) a nerf to DDs being able to wear these -PDT pieces of equipment or B) the scale of STR/attack vs. VIT/defense to be rewritten.

...

People may be outraged by this: "I can't do ridiculous amounts of damage anymore!? /ragequit" > "They want the game to be balanced? Screw that, I want to be inherently better than other jobs!" > "They're nerfing our ability to survive while at the same time being able to deal tons of damage? That's stupid, I want to be able to do both at the same time regardless of job!". Is it really that big of a deal to level the playing field? They could very well level it without affecting damage output.

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What I think happened, is that PLD was the only Job out there that could tank effectively in the past. The only other way to defeat certain bosses, was to "Zerg" them before the boss went ape-$hit and killed all the Melee. (IMO "Zerging should not be possible, due to it stripping dynamics completely out of the game, but that in itself is another topic altogether.)

While I agree that PLD should be a tank, I disagree that it should be the only one. That being said, I agree with your point that if a job outputs major damage, it should also have to sacrifice it's survivability.

The flop by the developers, was to add Equipment and Spells (allowing more jobs than one to access them) that allow certain Melee jobs to "Tank" effectively. What they should have done, was to decide which of the other jobs was going to be a "Tank" and give them the appropriate JA and JT in order to do so.

Arhat's Gi set, Jelly ring, ASA augmented legs and Twilight Torque, all opened up the possibility of Melee mitigating so much damage, it turned PLD into just a "precaution" type job. These -PDT gear sets along with shadows from Utsusemi, really tipped the scales too far for Melee's being able to "Tank".

While your other suggestions are great, I really feel that without doing these two major things, it will be very difficult to revive PLD as being seen as "useful" to the majority of the player base. These two things being:

1. Screw it and make PLD a DD. (something I don't want to see happen) or...
2. Nerf other jobs ability to "Tank" effectively, and decide which other 1~2 jobs can than be another "Tank" Class.

#2 would be met with heavy opposition. And I worry that due to this opposition, the developers will "turn a blind eye" to what could (IMO) bring more balance and dynamics to jobs as a whole.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Urteil

PLD and DRK still need serious help, I hope that Dev's look into this thoroughly.

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What about RNGs?

I stopped replying to this thread because you repetitively post ideas that have a 0% chance of ever being implemented, some of which aren't even ideas. But there's a patch, so you get my input on your 5th Modifications:

Point 6:
First off, you don't have a specific suggestion or show any understanding of how cRatio and fSTR work. As far as I know from reading your post, you've just regurgitated something you heard in another thread. The equations aren't "broken," they're working exactly as intended. All the patches, Abyssea, etc. haven't really changed the monster -> player damage mechanics at all.
Secondly, they can't rework cRatio in the way you'd probably like, because any job could sub BLU and use Cocoon. You know what other job gets a lot of VIT gear? White Mage. Monk. etc.
Finally, reducing damage taken is the least of your worries on Paladin. Right now Paladin/Ninja is by far the best at reducing physical damage barring, perhaps, a Fan Dance using Dancer with capped Evasion. Any change to damage mechanics that you make is going to necessarily help other jobs more than Paladin and make the job less desirable.

Point 2a - You call it a stupid gimmick yourself, and you're right.

Point 2B - You want your paladins to sub White Mage, which isn't exactly a bad choice if you're forced to bring them to Abyssea. Again, not really a fix to the job. A "supporting role" Paladin might as well be on a mage job.


Paladin's biggest "problem," at least before the most recent patch, is that no monsters exist (excluding PW) that are hard enough to justify sacrificing a DD slot to bring a Paladin. If you want to blame something for this, blame fixed hate cures (WHM) and Abyssites of Merit.

All the other things, inability to generate CE, slower attack speed than other 1H DDs, crappy WS selection, etc. is secondary to this primary problem. You want to "fix" Paladin? Ask for harder content.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I stopped replying to this thread because you repetitively post ideas that have a 0% chance of ever being implemented, some of which aren't even ideas...

...You want to "fix" Paladin? Ask for harder content.

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At least the guy is trying to be positive and come up with solutions to a job that is considered "invalid" by many.

Melee's crying about not being able to "Tank" tipped the game out of balance. Next thing you know, they'll complain about not being able to cure themselves enough, and ask that /DNC get a boost so they don't have to RELY on cures from anyone else.

Pretty soon we'll see everyone running around as SAM/DNC, MNK/DNC and NIN/DNC because Melee will be able to TANK, DO DAMAGE AND HEAL effectively. Is that what you want? To be a God?

And on your last note: Yes they should give us more difficult content.

Quote:

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You want to "fix" Paladin? Ask for harder content.

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If we do that we'll get paladin requiredcontent. People want the jobs to be useful, but not an absolute requirement. The mentality has 180'd. I remember a time nobody would do anything without a pld tank. As much as I love my pld, I don't want a return to those days. We really did need that to change, we needed more tanks. I just want to be useful as a pld again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Can't say I was expecting much from your response Greatguardian. As all I ever see is you basically calling any form of idea that anyone else has "rubbish" (I have literally yet to see otherwise) without any backing or any form of alternative solutions (which is called constructive criticism). "May as well rewrite the game from scatch" isn't much of a counter-argument. Since you're not denying the fact that the system is broken and seem hell-bent on derailing any train of thought on fixing it, I see no reason to continue this irrelevant debate where all you do is try to insult other people, in a passive-aggressive manner.

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The system is what the system is. FFXI is a game, it has rules, it has a system in place. When the ideal playstyle in that system does not coincide with the style you want to play, you can either adjust yourself to match the game, or you attempt to adjust the game to match you.

I don't call every idea rubbish. I call rubbish ideas rubbish. I'm not sitting here insulting anyone. If someone considers being told they're wrong insulting, that's their own problem.

I believe calling the system broken is a matter of perspective. Is it working the way Tanaka-san and the Development Team envisioned it should over a decade ago? Probably not. Is the current system defunct in such a way that it prevents players from playing the game? No. The game can be played perfectly fine. People have been playing it fine for years now, with the same system intact.

Do I think the system is broken? Naw. People can play in this system just fine. The only ones who can't are those who insist that they should be able to play optimally while playing the game "The way they want".

Do I think Paladin could use some adjustments? Definitely. But anything involving Defense is a lost cause. CDC and Ochain were monumental steps in the right direction. Sure, it's a localized boost since it requires two Empyreans, but it's an incredibly solid boost. Paladin needs to not be a waste of a party slot in order for it to be useful, as right now plenty of other jobs can serve as a better tank that deals more damage and takes less.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I stopped replying to this thread because you repetitively post ideas that have a 0% chance of ever being implemented, some of which aren't even ideas. But there's a patch, so you get my input on your 5th Modifications:

Point 6:
First off, you don't have a specific suggestion or show any understanding of how cRatio and fSTR work. As far as I know from reading your post, you've just regurgitated something you heard in another thread. The equations aren't "broken," they're working exactly as intended. All the patches, Abyssea, etc. haven't really changed the monster -> player damage mechanics at all.
Secondly, they can't rework cRatio in the way you'd probably like, because any job could sub BLU and use Cocoon. You know what other job gets a lot of VIT gear? White Mage. Monk. etc.
Finally, reducing damage taken is the least of your worries on Paladin. Right now Paladin/Ninja is by far the best at reducing physical damage barring, perhaps, a Fan Dance using Dancer with capped Evasion. Any change to damage mechanics that you make is going to necessarily help other jobs more than Paladin and make the job less desirable.

Point 2a - You call it a stupid gimmick yourself, and you're right.

Point 2B - You want your paladins to sub White Mage, which isn't exactly a bad choice if you're forced to bring them to Abyssea. Again, not really a fix to the job. A "supporting role" Paladin might as well be on a mage job.


Paladin's biggest "problem," at least before the most recent patch, is that no monsters exist (excluding PW) that are hard enough to justify sacrificing a DD slot to bring a Paladin. If you want to blame something for this, blame fixed hate cures (WHM) and Abyssites of Merit.

All the other things, inability to generate CE, slower attack speed than other 1H DDs, crappy WS selection, etc. is secondary to this primary problem. You want to "fix" Paladin? Ask for harder content.

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I think this post is a prime example of how no one agrees on what is wrong with paladin. "0% chance of being implemented" is an opinion, not a stating of fact. I think you misunderstand the purpose of this thread, and the way I try to make it differ from past threads. In that, I am merely listing possibilities and that I am fully aware that perhaps not all of said possibilities have a high probability but it's not 0% probability.

I've got a better question: How is increasing versatility detrimental to the job as it stands? I want something added, something that has potential to make Paladin more useful. Each post is made with the mindset of edging Paladin toward being "fixed" not singular ideas to instantly "fix" paladin. One giant update to paladin (or any job for that matter) is more prone to making that job over powered and thus requiring further adjustments to other jobs. I wish for an end to this cycle, I want equality. Is there really a reason to be against this?

As for not having a specific suggestion on 6A, you're right, I did that on purpose though. The suggestion is to rework the system, I merely gave no specifics as to how it should be scaled. Was it wrong of me to not do so? I don't really think it was, as it gives other people something to talk about and work out.

As for the fact that other jobs also have the VIT/defense gear and /blu that paladin also has access to. This is true (said it was a fact). However, the /blu argument is poor because then /blu would be the only viable sub, which I doubt people would take to. As for the VIT/defense gear, this is another reason why I did not give specifics to my "rework Vit/defense vs. Str/attack" portion of modifications #5. I understood the complexity of the situation, which returns me to my first point of this thread: everyone has different opinions on the matter.

People will argue that DDs are just as good at damage mitigation, then some one else will argue they're not as good. These things play more into personal experience rather than fact. It's the same as me saying that Monk sucks (in general) because of all the bad experiences I've had in the past with them. Was Monk as a job at fault? No, it was the player. I don't deny that Paladin is the best at reducing physical damage (I'd likely agree with you) but that doesn't change the view of other player's who have had bad experiences due to bad players. Adding and adjusting things does that.

Now that DD's can safely deal damage with capped enmity and survive enimty is definintely a problem. Pld's are just too slow and you sacrifice to much damage by bringing them when you do not have too. That said here is my Enmity fix.


Proposed Enmity fix #1: New Job Ability
The Knight's Wail
Instant Stun effect reseting hate for all other party/allaince members within A0E say 10' (excluding the PLD's hate)
Recast timer 2:00

You could even make it tiered to improve as you lvl. Say for instance lvl 1 pld would Call of the Squire which have like 10 minute recast timer and minor enmity reduction instead of cancellation of a single target and no stun effect. then have it evolve alittle every 10 to 15 lvl's or so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leonatos

Now that DD's can safely deal damage with capped enmity and survive is definintely a problem

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They've been able to do that for ... years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

They've been able to do that for ... years.

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Thank you for being so constructive instead of just trolling on a word play.