[dev1210] Why Not Merit Weaponskills ??

Analhelm is making the classic, unsupported "it's good design and a good idea because that's the way it is" argument and mixing it with a bunch of logical fallacies. Par for the course!

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Analhelm is making the classic, unsupported "it's good design and a good idea because that's the way it is" argument and mixing it with a bunch of logical fallacies. Par for the course!

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Alhanelem's argument isn't "unsupported arguement", it's just based on different design fundamental as yours. The point of defending for merit point system is to mimic how real life works, which is "a master scientist can't be a master baseball player". Without merit point system, current FFXI game system fail to simulate such facet of real life because it's much easier to obtain very good gear and skill to be good at multiple jobs, as long as you have time to invest.

You think Alhanelem's argument isn't logical because you don't give a damn about "real life/role playing aspect" in FFXI, while me and Alhanelem view "real life /role playing aspect" more important than anything else. It doesn't make his argument "unsupported".

If one day census shows that every_single_player do exactly same merit, then maybe "merit point is useless design" is a legit argument....once everyone makes the same choice there's no reason to give the player option to choose anymore. Until then players still make different choices, which is fact.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

I don't need an arbitrary limit to force me to make decisions. I've decided on my own what classes are worth leveling and maxing out and they are different from the ones you've chosen. If other people have the time and resources to max out everything then that's no skin off my nose. It doesn't cheapen any of my own accomplishments. Why would it?

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This only applies if every player has same amount of play time. Basically, a player that plays 24/7 can master way more jobs in FFXI than another player that plays less. Because of that, current system can't simulate rl properly. Irl everyone only has 24hr a day, no matter who you are you can't have more time than another person. Therefore you can't master more jobs/skills than another person that's equally smart because you don't have more time than him, that you must make a choice between wanting to be a scientist or an artist. In FFXI, An arbitrary limit is the only way to simulate such real life aspect.

Unless you want worse design such as weekly currency cap/gear cap like FFXIV, merit point system is the best we can get. If you have better idea to make a game with stronger role playing experience, make a suggestion. But "I'm unique because I say different things in /p" or "I'm unique because I invest my time on different jobs from others" doesn't count.

And no, "I can be what I want thus I can master 10 jobs instead of 1 because that's what I want" also doesn't count. :) Role playing isn't about total freedom, nor a race about who has more playtime.

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Originally Posted by Malithar

Torclever is terrible, and GSD has nothing else available, and Scythe is pretty much a utility weapon at this point. As your job is a DD, how do you expect to perform your job as a DD to the fullest of your ability without having a solid DD WS? Is that just it, you don't expect to perform to the fullest of your ability, and you settle for mediocrity? Not trying to be insulting, but that's a really terrible example to give for the benefit of your argument.

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Since "role playing element" should come first, then the right way to solve this issue is to buff existing/2nd best WS so they can catch up, and keep the role playing element in this game. Now you're saying merit point system/role playing element shouldn't exist because SE didn't do a good job balancing it, but it should be other way around.

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Originally Posted by Malithar

Furthermore, I'd argue it actually is quite a crippling system. Lets take a hypothetical mage only character that decides to level a DD job, lets say Rng. Being mage only, they've stuck their merits into Mnd, Int, Club, Staff, defensive skills, and idk, sword or something for a Rdm, as well as 5/5ing the corresponding WSs. Cool beans. Now lets bring that Rng to a VD fight. They're missing 12 Str/Agi merits, 8 weapon merits, and a stronger WS (barring relic, ignore enmity for this example.) That may not sound like much, but that's giving them a lower fStr, lower accuracy, less WS damage, and less RAtt. Without removing merits from their mage jobs, they're stuck without these benefits. I'm not going to say this Rng is now crippled and incapable of doing said content. But should they really be hindered for their choices in merits? Is that really something you believe is fair?

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This is actually not a very convincing example for ppl defending for merit point system :p For ppl like me and Alhanelem who value role playing element more than anything else, the above example is exactly what we wanted: a player who choose to be a pro mage with high MND/INT/club will be bad at archery.

This isn't a matter of "fair", it's not like this game is PVP game and if you deal less dmg than another RNG you get low ranking. This is life, a mage that's smart and spend entire life studying and get smarter (higher INT)shouldn't be strong enough to deal good dmg with a bow(lower STR). If you want the game to be perfectly "fair", then there's no point to play a RPG at all. Games like FTG or RTS are perfectly "fair" that character performance is separate by skill, not stat. Games like RPG should let players live another life in a game though.

On the other hand, there's almost 0 reason to be perfectly "fair" in FFXI. A RNG without 12 STR/AGI merit and do less dmg, won't be in that much of a disadvantage. He can still complete the content. There's no PVP/recommendation/ranking system in FFXI either. He may have harder time to complete the content that needs RNG but that's only because current content design doesn't benefit mage main(nukers such as BLM SCH isn't main DD) so he can't get advantage as a mage main, not because there's a flaw in merit point system.

Anyways, it seems that ppl who doesn't want merit point system can't grasp the idea of role playing element in a MMORPG, so there's no point to argue about this subject anymore IMO. You can argue that role playing doesn't work in MMO because of optimization mentality, this is actually a whole other subject.....even games with 1 single class has balance issue with talent tree, all the time. There's always "most efficient/popular choice" in any RPG, even if the choice is there. However, last time when I play a game that removed choice making completely(FFXIV, I'm looking at you) I have 0 fun in it even if it's completely "fair" when it comes to class performance. I'd rather play a game with merit point system/talent tree and not perfectly balanced, than another game that removes such aspect completely. You can't ask the dev to erase the role playing element from a MMORPG just because merit point is hard to balance.

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Between optimization or not optimizing. What's the logical choice?

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Your choice is between optimizing one job and optimizing another. But if you really want to not optimize anything, that's an option too, I suppose.

Also, some of us are not as crazy hardcore as you are and are not super concerned with putting out the absolute greatest numbers and one-upping the rest of the party, as long as they're able to win the content. Some play play a bit more relaxed (But that also doesn't mean they aren't capable). However, I recognize the plight of such elitists who are unable to understand why everyone else around them doesn't strive for absolute perfection; I honestly pity such people. >.>

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I'm still not convinced that there is such a huge gap between the merit WS and the next best possible option (Which, even if there is, the whole system is going to be undergoing revisions soon, so any argument we're having about it could be moot- Ignoring people's cynicism about how SE will change the older WS). I'm also not convinced that the difference between a 1/5 and 5/5 WS is significant enough to majorly alter your DPS over a fight or affect your ability to play content. Odds are, if you have the WS at all, nobody's going to be paying attention to exactly how much damage you do with it- so unless you're playing with the most elite of elitists, nobody's going to notice you haven't fully upgraded it.

As I've said before, I wouldn't mind if they increased the WS limit as I think it's a bit too restrictive atm (and I'm sure everyone would love that). I only don't feel that it should be uncapped entirely.

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In a game where your job selection at any given time is not limited, I wholeheartedly disagree.

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Since not everybody has leveled/unlocked every job, that's not exactly true.

Also, every other game pretty much lets you play every class. FFXI just makes it much more convenient to do so by allowing you to do it with a single identity. Should those games have all their customization options removed, since being able to play all classes apparently means you have to be allowed to be the best at everything?

I would honestly be more bothered if the decisions you have to make couldn't be undone. But they can be. And while its a bit of a hassle, it is not in any way difficult to remove your merits from something and then upgrade something else- something I've done on a few occasions after regretting my choices.

Personally, I like making choices about my character. But it doesn't seem like anyone else does. I don't feel my ability to be the best PUP should be limited to gear obtainment (especially since everyone who wants to play a job will probably get the best or near the best gear for it eventually). If that's my favorite job, I should be able to customize my character to favor that job. I also play other jobs when necesary, and I can still play those jobs. I'm just better at this job because it's my favorite. (In fact, in most content I end up using something else. I use my SCH, DNC, SMN, DRK and GEO all the time even though my stat merits are for STR and my Others merits favor melee combat. Have I been prevented from using those jobs by my merit choices? Absolutely not. The merit system has successfully enhanced my favorite job, whilst not preventing me from using others when necessary.)

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Originally Posted by Afania

You think Alhanelem's argument isn't logical because you don't give a damn about "real life/role playing aspect" in FFXI, while me and Alhanelem view "real life /role playing aspect" more important than anything else. It doesn't make his argument "unsupported".

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Au contraire. My actual argument is that attempting to impose "reality" on our job system in the final throes (aka the merit point system) is a waste of time. The job system is inherently un-limiting. Applying caps late in the game just doesn't make any logical sense and runs contrary to FFXI's Level 1 design principles.

Example: The job system and current exclusionary events indicate that we're supposed to be versatile characters so that we can take part in the content that is released. The limiting merit system discourages us from becoming more versatile and encourages us to specialize. These are obviously running at cross purposes.

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Originally Posted by Afania

If one day census shows that every_single_player do exactly same merit, then maybe "merit point is useless design" is a legit argument....once everyone makes the same choice there's no reason to give the player option to choose anymore. Until then players still make different choices, which is fact.

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This depends strongly on what you think of as "every single player". Something like 70% of the level 12 stats in 2012 were STR. Is it safe to say that "every single player" had 12 STR merits? No, but c'moooon. The data doesn't provide any information on how many people are actually at the merit cap, which makes it difficult to answer any relevant questions with it, but it looks like people overwhelmingly merit the same thing in essentially every single category that matters.

Here is a response to a similar post:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/118...=1#post6124375



By the way, a supported argument would offer evidence to support it. In this case, it would need to offer evidence that keeping a limited merit system notably improves the average player's gaming experience.

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By the way, a supported argument would offer evidence to support it. In this case, it would need to offer evidence that keeping a limited merit system notably improves the average player's gaming experience.

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There is unfortunately no way to measure this. By the same token though, you need to offer actual evidence that the merit limits notably deteriorate the average player's gaming experience. Which, such evidence would be just as hard to come by for you. Testimonials of a handful of people on a forum (for either side, mine or yours) do not have statistical significance.

A more reasonable thing to measure is if there is a meaningful amount of variation in merit point combinations in use. The problem here is the only data we are given by SE lumps everything together. You can only see the total amount of people with one or more levels of each merit. You can't see all the individual combinations in use. Attribute category for example isnt a great measurement because there are more melee-based (STR) jobs than ranged jobs (DEX, INT) or support/specialist jobs (MND/AGI/CHR). So if everyone set their attribtue merits for the one and only job they play most, I would expect to see more STR merits than other merits. But this doesn't mean everybody plays STR based jobs nor does it mean nobody uses other combinations. (e.g. if your true love is mages and you don't use melee DDs or tanks much, you're not going to merit STR)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

However, I recognize the plight of such elitists who are unable to understand why everyone else around them doesn't strive for absolute perfection; I honestly pity such people. >.>

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That's pretty much borderline insulting, for someone who deleted their response to someone for calling you a moron. There's a rather large difference between "absolute perfection" and "wanting to play each and every job to the same ability." I don't need your pity, and I'd imagine most other's that strive to at least hit what they feel is a good level of play for a quality player don't need it either.

If you're missing an HQ piece or two or 4 and missing -4 stats, I don't care, and I don't care that I'm missing those. Are you using a WS that's doing less than 70% of what another WS you could unlock as 1/5 could do as a Drk? /kicked Are you a DD that's more apt at pushing air around with your weapon than hitting a mob? /kicked

There's a certain degree of gear/skill that most put into and bring with a given job that they play. Ever see a Whm that can keep everyone topped off just fine, knows how to manage AF3+2 legs correctly and very rarely over cures? How about when they keep Dia II up full time, boost spells up full time, and properly manage a Haste cycle? -Na's before people even ask? That's a good player. Now that's Whm, their degree of skill comes more from management of resources, IE, MP, spells, gear.

How does a DD stand out? They don't die instantly (-DT sets, content willing) and they blow mobs up with good damage. Merits directly impact this, in that unless you only play a single DD (little over 1/2th of the jobs are considered DDs) you're more than likely missing merits that would boost your selected WSs mod, combat merits, and WS merits. How's that fair, compared across the character, as "being their choice"? So just because I prefer, say, to play Sam, then if I'm requested to come to something as Thf, I should be penalized by my merit choices? You say you only view merits as a bonus, however, when you look at VD content, the accuracy and damage provided by meriting out the off jobs you may have to bring could very well be the difference between +/- 10% accuracy and varying degrees of WS damage and att.

I'm viewing Afania's argument better than your's simply because at least his has a point, as silly as it is. Your's is simply "they're choices, bonuses, and you're capable of doing anything and everything without them," which isn't incorrect per-se, but if that's the honest case, why divide the playerbase on their purpose and include them anyways?

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Since not everybody has leveled/unlocked every job, that's not exactly true.

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That's seriously your retort to an MMO with a job selection system as varied as XI's? Lemme rephrase then. In a game where your job selection at any given time is not limited, I wholeheartedly disagree, unless you're too lazy to level more useful/fun jobs, cause you're obviously in tune with the game's variable job system. Did I hit the mark that time?

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That's pretty much borderline insulting, for someone who deleted their response to someone for calling you a moron.

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How is that an insult to you? and what business is it of yours if i changed my mind about responding to a rude post? (Which, by the way, was the right thing to do)

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There's a rather large difference between "absolute perfection" and "wanting to play each and every job to the same ability."

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Actually, there isn't much of a difference: you're demanding maximum ability on every single job (the very definition of what you said). You have zero willingness to compromise, you're not willing to sacrifice a single point of damage on one job to gain one on another, even though it will have virtually zero impact on each job's playability. In other words, you want all of us and everybody to be exactly the same. I would prefer it if every player had their own chosen strengths and weaknesses, it's what makes us unique and it's also what lets us shine at what we really want to do. I don't know anyone who plays all 22 jobs equally and doesn't have a favorite they'd prefer to play more often than the others.

Why do you NEED to "play each and every job to the same ability? Why does it matter that XYZ job you're not currently playing and don't use much isn't at the same exact level of performance (not that the game is balanced that well in the first place)

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How does a DD stand out? They don't die instantly (-DT sets, content willing) and they blow mobs up with good damage. Merits directly impact this, in that unless you only play a single DD (little over 1/2th of the jobs are considered DDs)

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You're very likely missing out on little else other than a couple main stat points and a small percentage on your WS modifier. Not a major impact by any stretch of the imagination as long as you're gearing your jobs properly (which you covered in talking about sets).

FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, people who gear their jobs up well enough for the content they are playing will, skill willing, perform close enough to other people who play the same job that it doesn't significantly matter who does it. Merits allow customization and do not deny you the ability to play a job to a level where nobody would be able to tell that you didn't merit for it.

I'm not sure why you think I don't have a point, as I've made several. My point is I like and want the customization that the merit system offers. I WANT to be better at some jobs and worse in others. I want my merit build to reflect my individuality and my favorite aspects of the job system. I could really care less if my weapon skill on DRK does 100 less damage than yours- If I need to use the job, it will work well enough to get the job done. I would prefer this varied environment to a sterile one where everyone is exactly the same.

Unfortunately, this is two circles of thought that pretty much can't coexist. The desire to customize and play to one's strengths vs the desire to be the best at everything. We can fight over it til the cows come home, you're not changing your mind nor will I change mine. I doubt we'll come to any sort of understanding here, so I'll leave it here, while I go play my job I didn't merit specifically for in Delve and perform just fine.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

There is unfortunately no way to measure this. By the same token though, you need to offer actual evidence that the merit limits notably deteriorate the average player's gaming experience. Which, such evidence would be just as hard to come by for you. Testimonials of a handful of people on a forum (for either side, mine or yours) do not have statistical significance.

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Why do I need data to support my arguments, which were basically:
1) Uncapping the merit system gives us more reasons to log in
2) Uncapping the merit system would get people to do things that give xp (like Voidwatch)
3) Uncapping the merit system is at cross purposes with the rest of FFXI's design

All three of my points are just logical outgrowths of looking at the game, don't make any unwarranted assumptions about the average player's experience (having more to do = good), and don't really require a survey of the playerbase to support them. Of course, if we were going to survey the playerbase, it's fairly obvious that it would be supported. Is this the most "liked" post on the NA forums? I'm not sure, but it has got to be up there. Meanwhile, posts to the contrary garner something like 0-1 "like." Basically, if this was a idea-popularity contest then uncapping the merit system wins.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Au contraire. My actual argument is that attempting to impose "reality" on our job system in the final throes (aka the merit point system) is a waste of time. The job system is inherently un-limiting.

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I don't agree, and this is just your personal opinion, that you wanted to force your own ideal job system on to FFXI's. I think FFXI with merit point system and +/- on the stats works perfectly fine.

If you want to talk about design philosophy and removing "unnecessary" portion of the game, I can argue that dev should remove lv1~lv99 first and let everyone jump straight to endgame.

It works, and it'd work better than current FFXI. But the role playing element would be gone and make the game less interesting. Merit point system is the same.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Example: The job system and current exclusionary events indicate that we're supposed to be versatile characters so that we can take part in the content that is released. The limiting merit system discourages us from becoming more versatile and encourages us to specialize. These are obviously running at cross purposes.

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All the content are still doable without having capped merit though, it didn't "discourage" the player to play certain job just because your stat is 12 lower than another player. The gap between merit point WS and the 2nd best option is a bigger issue, and that needs to be fixed. But not through removing merit point system.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

This depends strongly on what you think of as "every single player". Something like 70% of the level 12 stats in 2012 were STR. Is it safe to say that "every single player" had 12 STR merits? No, but c'moooon. The data doesn't provide any information on how many people are actually at the merit cap, which makes it difficult to answer any relevant questions with it, but it looks like people overwhelmingly merit the same thing in essentially every single category that matters.

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Huh, if I'm lving a mage only character or a mage mule, I probably won't merit STR, ever.

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Originally Posted by Malithar

How does a DD stand out? They don't die instantly (-DT sets, content willing) and they blow mobs up with good damage. Merits directly impact this, in that unless you only play a single DD (little over 1/2th of the jobs are considered DDs) you're more than likely missing merits that would boost your selected WSs mod, combat merits, and WS merits. How's that fair, compared across the character, as "being their choice"? So just because I prefer, say, to play Sam, then if I'm requested to come to something as Thf, I should be penalized by my merit choices? You say you only view merits as a bonus, however, when you look at VD content, the accuracy and damage provided by meriting out the off jobs you may have to bring could very well be the difference between +/- 10% accuracy and varying degrees of WS damage and att.

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What this should be telling people is that you prefer to play SAM. Let the person who maximized their merits to benefit THF come thf. By having to make a choice about which job gets the biggest boost, it lets your friends know which job you really want to play with.

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Originally Posted by Xantavia

What this should be telling people is that you prefer to play SAM. Let the person who maximized their merits to benefit THF come thf. By having to make a choice about which job gets the biggest boost, it lets your friends know which job you really want to play with.

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That doesn't change much most of the time. I prefer RDM in any situation but just because my RDM is fully merited and my character is built around it doesn't change the fact people want WHM instead sometimes and unless I'm willing to go WHM I just won't be taken at all. The same can be said for anyone who has a prefered job, sure, you might prefer SAM, but if we don't need a SAM and you're not up to par on THF compared to what I'm wanting then I just won't take you at all and the very fact you merited SAM rather than THF becomes nothing more than a hinderance.

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1) Uncapping the merit system gives us more reasons to log in

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Dubious. It doesn't give me more reasons to log in. Even if I can max out more WS, that's not going to impact my current login rate. If it doesn't give me more reasons, it stands to reason that at least some other people aren't given more reasons. If not being able to max all weapon skills is pushing you towards not logging in, there is probably a lot more serious issues that have pushed you in that direction already.

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2) Uncapping the merit system would get people to do things that give xp (like Voidwatch)

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Dubious. The merit system doesn't really prevent anyone from doing this.

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3) Uncapping the merit system is at cross purposes with the rest of FFXI's design

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Opinion, not a fact. With 22 job options, a system that provides specialization and thereby lets you stand out on a favorite makes sense to me.

None of your points are "logical outgrowths." Two are pretty much wrong and one is a subjective opinion. Points 1 and 2 do indeed make assumptions about the average player's experience.

You're getting doused with likes in spite of this fact, so I pretty much can't win. I said coming in here I knew my opinion wasn't popular. But just because people like your post, doesn't mean you're right. Fortunately for us, post like contests don't dictate SE policy (most of the time).

(also, I'd like to see some math expert person come in here and tell us if the recently posted WS adjustements decrease the dominance of any of the popular merit WS).

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Why do I need data to support my arguments, which were basically:
1) Uncapping the merit system gives us more reasons to log in
2) Uncapping the merit system would get people to do things that give xp (like Voidwatch)
3) Uncapping the merit system is at cross purposes with the rest of FFXI's design

All three of my points are just logical outgrowths of looking at the game, don't make any unwarranted assumptions about the average player's experience (having more to do = good), and don't really require a survey of the playerbase to support them. Of course, if we were going to survey the playerbase, it's fairly obvious that it would be supported. Is this the most "liked" post on the NA forums? I'm not sure, but it has got to be up there. Meanwhile, posts to the contrary garner something like 0-1 "like." Basically, if this was a idea-popularity contest then uncapping the merit system wins.

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The logic behind this is absolutely flawed. You are trying come up with momentary answer to bigger issues (basically, you allow people to put points into all merits till...... there is no more merits to put points into putting us back into the same boat we are in now, lets ignore the fact you have no credible source at all that it would make people log in more rather than exping vs doing their normal routine). You also argue your ideas under the opinion that SE doesn't want people to somewhat specialize what they do, for example, lets use a relic wep for the sake of the argument (this is also assuming you get a relic for the job you like to play). For the most part, they are better than the i119 weps you can get (excluding m/e), but the 119 weps are still there to allow you to gear other jobs that can successfully do current content without needing a relic (the cookie cutter builds people do requiring relics is irrelevant since the content can be done without). Basically what I'm getting at is the current way merits are in the game, besides job specific merits (which you can put points into them for every job), none of them make or break you, and to assume otherwise would probably suggest you have a much bigger issue than you couldn't put x amount of points into x weapon skill or x amount of points into x magic skill.

I would also like to point out that 212 likes (time of viewing your post) is no where near some kind of majority view of the player base of this game. Do I think most people that would read to allow us to obtain more merits would agree? Hell yeah, I even absolutely agree with the idea. But don't argue flawed logic to support your point and that you are right because all the other ignorant people who agree with you like your post.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

The logic behind this is absolutely flawed. You are trying come up with momentary answer to bigger issues (basically, you allow people to put points into all merits till...... there is no more merits to put points into putting us back into the same boat we are in now, lets ignore the fact you have no credible source at all that it would make people log in more rather than exping vs doing their normal routine(...) I even absolutely agree with the idea. But don't argue flawed logic to support your point and that you are right because all the other ignorant people who agree with you like your post.

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I suppose the idea of having more productive things to do to build your character in an MMO is a radical new idea that needs to be studied before such an assumption can be made. "Flawed logic" is a hell of a leap, IMO.

Saturday night free time w/ change: Hmm, got 3 hours to burn, what to do, what to do...Oh, I could merit some other stats now that SE uncapped them!

Saturday night free time w/o change: Hmm, got 3 hours to burn, what to do, what to do... er, I'm capped out on Delve gear, I've got more gil than I know what to do with from farming it for months, capped on +1 Skirmish, LS doesn't have any plans...Oh, Imma go see that new X-Men movie!

Is having something to do in an MMO really that much of a logic leap to call it a reason to log in?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Dubious. The merit system doesn't really prevent anyone from doing this.

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It may not outright prevent it, but tell me, do you find yourself itching to do lackluster events with rewards that you have no interest in or no longer need, simply for the "fun" of it? Capped KIs, merits, and merit points are a very real thing, and when you hit that point, there is no incentive to go and exp, as it goes straight to the void, rather than into a useful point tally. I'd say calling it dubious is pretty far off the mark, considering that's the main driving force behind VW/exping in general.

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Originally Posted by Malithar

I suppose the idea of having more productive things to do to build your character in an MMO is a radical new idea that needs to be studied before such an assumption can be made. "Flawed logic" is a hell of a leap, IMO.

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Yea, you are right, oh wait, why are we complaining in the first place. I can farm or do the same RoE over and and over that we have, could keep going, but I'm sure you get the idea.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

I can farm or do the same RoE over and and over that we have, could keep going, but I'm sure you get the idea.

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You're 100% right, until, as you pointed out in your previous post, there's no longer a reason to do it. Hence why this is something more to do.

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Originally Posted by Malithar

You're 100% right, until, as you pointed out in your previous post, there's no longer a reason to do it. Hence why this is something more to do.

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Hence the speculation that SE want's you to possible excel at some jobs, I wish I pointed that out in my post, oh wait.

Also, there is job points, I'm willing to bet no one has all job points for every job, to suggest that there is "nothing for the player base to do, so we should be able to have more merits" is absurd. More options are great, hence my agreement (if you read my entire post which you obviously didn't), but like I said, the flawed logic behind his points is flawed.

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Originally Posted by Afania

You think Alhanelem's argument isn't logical because you don't give a damn about "real life/role playing aspect" in FFXI, while me and Alhanelem view "real life /role playing aspect" more important than anything else. It doesn't make his argument "unsupported".

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This isn't even a logical discussion. The whole thing on both sides is based on feelings and preferences. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem here is that you seem to think that an RPG can only be an RPG if it's based on a plus/minus system. That somehow if SE allows a player to unlock all weapon skills on a single character that FFXI is no longer an RPG.

FFXI doesn't even have a plus/minus system in the first place as you've defined it. It has limits, but choosing to "plus" one thing doesn't cause another thing to "minus." My INT doesn't go down when I merit STR. My WAR doesn't delevel when I level my BLM. My ice potency doesn't decrease when I merit earth. So, your whole plus/minus argument is moot anyway. FFXI is already not an RPG by your rather strict definition.

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This only applies if every player has same amount of play time. Basically, a player that plays 24/7 can master way more jobs in FFXI than another player that plays less. Because of that, current system can't simulate rl properly. Irl everyone only has 24hr a day, no matter who you are you can't have more time than another person. Therefore you can't master more jobs/skills than another person that's equally smart because you don't have more time than him, that you must make a choice between wanting to be a scientist or an artist. In FFXI, An arbitrary limit is the only way to simulate such real life aspect.

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It's a fantasy game. Asking for it to mimic real life in such a way is absurd. In a game where someone can simply read a scroll and instantly learn how to blow things up with their mind or talk to a flying plushie and adopt a completely new skill set, I don't think it's too far fetched to imagine that exceptional people (like our characters) can learn anything they damn well please to learn by putting forth the effort (or reading a scroll, or watching a monster do it, or bashing things with a weapon enough times...).

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Unless you want worse design such as weekly currency cap/gear cap like FFXIV, merit point system is the best we can get. If you have better idea to make a game with stronger role playing experience, make a suggestion. But "I'm unique because I say different things in /p" or "I'm unique because I invest my time on different jobs from others" doesn't count.

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Unlock the weapon skill categories and leave uniqueness in the hands of the players. That's my idea.

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And no, "I can be what I want thus I can master 10 jobs instead of 1 because that's what I want" also doesn't count. :) Role playing isn't about total freedom, nor a race about who has more playtime.

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Again you have this very narrow view about what an RPG is. An RPG can still be an RPG with total freedom. As long as you're playing a role in a game setting that's all that's required. The actual game mechanics and methods of stat distribution are irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Dubious. It doesn't give me more reasons to log in. Even if I can max out more WS, that's not going to impact my current login rate. If it doesn't give me more reasons, it stands to reason that at least some other people aren't given more reasons. If not being able to max all weapon skills is pushing you towards not logging in, there is probably a lot more serious issues that have pushed you in that direction already.

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That doesn't make a lot of sense. No one said that being unable to merit things is pushing them toward not logging in. There's a large difference between "this gives us more reasons to log in" and "without this, I don't want to log in as much". More things to merit means more things to do, which means more reasons to log in as a result. There's not a player in this game who wouldn't gain use from uncapping merit points as a whole, there aren't many who wouldn't benefit from uncapping weaponskill merits.

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Dubious. The merit system doesn't really prevent anyone from doing this.

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It also is at a dead end for most players right now and as a result gives less reason to do that content. I never do VW unless I need merits for MPNMs, that's not often. If I had more merits to get for WSs or to get my RDM more spells I'd do it in a heartbeat, instead I'm left with little benefit/incentive.

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Opinion, not a fact.

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Not really. I can't think of anything in this game really that limits you to one thing or another like merits do. We have 22 jobs, but we pick between them at will and can not only level them all to capped level but gear them to the maximum extreme. We have a few choices like what country we live in but that choice is minor especially now days, we have choices in what mission rewards we want but those are almost always worthless except for one option anyways. Job Points aren't limited at all, they are removing the cap on HP/MP basically, I mean to me it seems like it makes sense to say that the majority of merit points as a system are the only real 'specialized' system in this game. If they are, that by definition would mean they fall outside of the rest of FFXI's paradigm. At least that's how I see things.

The argument that uncapping merits will hurt uniqueness doesn't make sense to me, not only because, as Byrth has said, there's usually only one "right" way to merit but also because there's only so much time in a day. Even if you were to uncap merits people would still be distinct. I'm a BLU main, maybe Justin is a RDM main, Byrth is maybe a DNC main etc and we each have different secondary jobs and we only have so much time to devote to any job/jobs and getting gear for those jobs. Merits make no difference as far as uniqueness goes.

Edit: Also, there's a great amount of irony in the fact that SE is constantly increasing the caps on HP/MP, Attributes, Combat skills and Magic skills merits, which are the few merit categories that actually DO give decent to high functional diversity.

Deep down I think people who support merit caps on weapon skills are just afraid of having even competition on their favored jobs. They don't want to get shown up on their primary job by someone who just leveled that job as their 4th. That's why they want to convince everyone that you don't NEED that merited WS to play the job. They want to maintain the edge they gain by having it themselves. If it wasn't worth having then they wouldn't have bothered with it themselves.

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Originally Posted by Mefuki

The argument that uncapping merits will hurt uniqueness doesn't make sense to me, not only because, as Byrth has said, there's usually only one "right" way to merit but also because there's only so much time in a day. Even if you were to uncap merits people would still be distinct. I'm a BLU main, maybe Justin is a RDM main, Byrth is maybe a DNC main etc and we each have different secondary jobs and we only have so much time to devote to any job/jobs and getting gear for those jobs. Merits make no difference as far as uniqueness goes.

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Actually they do, now lets say you and your buddies all have BLU lvl'd, but you are the only one that put merits into merits that benefit BLU, although with the new gear unless merit caps are raised or something of the sorts, the difference in minimal, but from a min/max standpoint, you would out perform the other BLUs, hence making you unique to the other BLUs in theory. Basically, the merits help to try and stand out a little more so that people maybe aren't all the same, give that extra push for the people who actually enjoy the jobs they put the merits into to benefit. They also don't really make or break you now and days as much as they did back in the days, but they still help you excel no matter how you look at it.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Deep down I think people who support merit caps on weapon skills are just afraid of having even competition on their favored jobs. They don't want to get shown up on their primary job by someone who just leveled that job as their 4th. That's why they want to convince everyone that you don't NEED that merited WS to play the job. They want to maintain the edge they gain by having it themselves. If it wasn't worth having then they wouldn't have bothered with it themselves.

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Oh, excuse those players for not wanting to be generic ff player #4524 instead of maybe somehow differentiating themselves from the pact.

I've been staying out of this but that last reply to Afania made me laugh a little and think they would be one of the few people who would have liked FF II's leveling system. The only FF that had such a strict +/- system.

As a person who normally out parses the vast majority of DDs i see if you look at my ffxiah profile you will see i have 1/5 in alot of weaponskills. I can asure you that the measly ~200 dmg boost that we have been looking at is nothing. Now with the update to other weaponskills there seems to be alot more choices. I honestly cant wait to see how they do!

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Originally Posted by Nappy

As a person who normally out parses the vast majority of DDs i see if you look at my ffxiah profile you will see i have 1/5 in alot of weaponskills. I can asure you that the measly ~200 dmg boost that we have been looking at is nothing. Now with the update to other weaponskills there seems to be alot more choices. I honestly cant wait to see how they do!

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I'm sorry but i refuse to believe anyone called "Nappy" is out parsing anything.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Oh, excuse those players for not wanting to be generic ff player #4524 instead of maybe somehow differentiating themselves from the pact.

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They ARE generic FF player #4524 just as you are #4525 and I'm #4526. No weapon skill is going to change that.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

This isn't even a logical discussion. The whole thing on both sides is based on feelings and preferences. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem here is that you seem to think that an RPG can only be an RPG if it's based on a plus/minus system. That somehow if SE allows a player to unlock all weapon skills on a single character that FFXI is no longer an RPG.

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I never deny the fact that my argument is based on personal preference, so does everyone else's.

I don't MIND SE adding other RPG element if they remove merit point system, but as it stands now, this game is already lacking RPG element and removing them = even less.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

FFXI doesn't even have a plus/minus system in the first place as you've defined it. It has limits, but choosing to "plus" one thing doesn't cause another thing to "minus." My INT doesn't go down when I merit STR. My WAR doesn't delevel when I level my BLM. My ice potency doesn't decrease when I merit earth. So, your whole plus/minus argument is moot anyway. FFXI is already not an RPG by your rather strict definition.

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When you merit STR DEX, your INT merit is 0/12, this is essentially the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

It's a fantasy game. Asking for it to mimic real life in such a way is absurd.

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Even though it's a fantasy game, the game still has to follow certain "rule" that makes sense and related to rl. That'd create a feeling that we're in a virtual world, and immerse in it. Just because it's fantasy world, doesn't mean we can do anything we want.

I mean, why are there gravity? Why can't characters just fly and go through walls? Why do we have economy? Why can't we get free food/material? Why do we have arrows? Why can't we play this game like FFXIV that we just equip a bow and get free arrows?

Game dev can make any rule in a game because it's fantasy, but each rule must enhance the game playing experience to achieve the design goal. If the design goal is to create a world that simulate rl as much as possible in a fantasy world, then having arrows or having merit cap makes sense.

"Read a scroll and learn spell" is how this world works, so does "A pro BLM that spends entire life studying can't be the best RNG".

Personally, I think it's more interesting that way. This is, of course, personal preference. Since I like RPG or MMORPG closer to virtual life simulator.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Unlock the weapon skill categories and leave uniqueness in the hands of the players. That's my idea.

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The point is that current FFXI doesn't offer room for uniqueness without merit point. And I still don't agree with "I'm unique because I say different thing in /p"

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Again you have this very narrow view about what an RPG is. An RPG can still be an RPG with total freedom. As long as you're playing a role in a game setting that's all that's required. The actual game mechanics and methods of stat distribution are irrelevant.

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Except RPG has always been about stats and +/-, making decisions about skills and such for past 30+ years. Don't try to reinvent the genre and remove such element and claim it's still RPG. In fact for games like JRPG, which is often more linear, is often being viewed as "adventure game with levels" instead of real RPG.

I'm not the only one with this POV. Most players in RPG community do view linearity "not real RPG". This isn't narrow POV, this is just how this genre works for past 30+ years.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Deep down I think people who support merit caps on weapon skills are just afraid of having even competition on their favored jobs. They don't want to get shown up on their primary job by someone who just leveled that job as their 4th. That's why they want to convince everyone that you don't NEED that merited WS to play the job. They want to maintain the edge they gain by having it themselves. If it wasn't worth having then they wouldn't have bothered with it themselves.

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This is silly, I've been saying I agree the gap between merit point WS and the 2nd best option should be lowered, and certain job REALLY DON'T NEED IT. I'm against removing merit cap as a whole but I didn't say a thing about current WS hierarchy is doing right.

Also, after next WS update there's absolute 0 reason to complain about merit cap on WS anymore. Most of the jobs get better alternative.

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Originally Posted by Mefuki

The argument that uncapping merits will hurt uniqueness doesn't make sense to me, not only because, as Byrth has said, there's usually only one "right" way to merit but also because there's only so much time in a day. Even if you were to uncap merits people would still be distinct. I'm a BLU main, maybe Justin is a RDM main, Byrth is maybe a DNC main etc and we each have different secondary jobs and we only have so much time to devote to any job/jobs and getting gear for those jobs. Merits make no difference as far as uniqueness goes.

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Nah, I'm pretty sure a BLM main would merit INT instead of DEX. And I already explained the time spent issue in previous posts. Time spent on gearing a job doesn't make a player unique unless 1 job needs 10000 hours to complete. You certainly don't need 10000 hours to obtain very good gears in every slot in FFXI nowaday, more like 100 hrs.

If dev really make 1 job needing 10000 hours to master, players gonna cry too. Thus merit point system is a better option to create uniqueness, at least better than weekly gear cap in FFXIV, or super 10000hr grind fest.

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No one said that being unable to merit things is pushing them toward not logging in.

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It was said that being able to merit everything would push them toward logging in, so it makes total sense that the opposite is true if they do not uncap merits.

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I can't think of anything in this game really that limits you to one thing or another like merits do.

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Merits don't limit you, they give you choices for customization. Very little in the way of merits is truly necessary for gameplay. Merits are additions to what you already have, your job is not nonfunctional without them. Merits don't limit you to one thing or another, they simply give you a choice of favorite jobs to emphasize. Ive said time and time again, you don't have to have every merit wepon skill to play every job (even more so with the WS adjustmentes0, you don't have to have just the right attribute merits to play every job, you don't have to have just the right skill or Others merits to play every job; The rest of the categories are job specific and so don't really matter for this discussion.

Your statement implies jobs cannot be played without gearing merits just for htem, and that is simply completely not true. It is a player base issue, not a merit points issue, that players demand a far higher level of perfection than is really necessary to clear content.

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Unlock the weapon skill categories and leave uniqueness in the hands of the players. That's my idea.

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That only makes you "unique" until you have every merit WS. It makes people feel obligated to get them all just because they can, even though they probably don't need them all. Once the active playerbase has done this, there is no difference from one player to another and the merit system has failed at its originally intended function of offering customization options.

Remove merit caps and the only uniqueness from one player to the next will be whether they are haves or have nots, and their character appearance (which has so few options that everyone has at least a few lookalikes).

LOL really now. Ok so I show up as a drg to a delve boss run and say I don't have angon because I want to be as special snow flake how fast do you think the group would kick me. If you want to do group content you have to submit to what the group needs and wants. While yes it is a player issue it is also SE's issue to fix it, and changing the game is a whole lot easier then trying to change people.There is no harm AT ALL in uncapping the system. As so many people have pointed out there has always only been one right way to spend job merits if you wanted to do content on that job.

As the player base gets smaller people will remember the little snow flakes and not invite them, so those people too will relent and give up their crap merits to be useful. Also they have been upping the caps on the ones that used to really limit what jobs you can max out before the merited weapon skills were added. Combat, HP/MP, magic skills, attributes even the other cat have gotten increases that now limit you very little.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It was said that being able to merit everything would push them toward logging in, so it makes total sense that the opposite is true if they do not uncap merits.

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No. You see this is where we're misunderstanding one another I think.

Imagine on this chart the left is how little someone wants to log in due to something, while the right is how much people want to log in because of something.
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/...4236/Chart.png

Now, what we have right now is this...
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/...236/Chart1.png

This is neutral, people don't want to log in more, nor do they want to log in less necessarily, meaning this update has no impact by not being done. This is what I was saying is the case.

The way you originally worded your statement is "If not being able to max all weapon skills is pushing you towards not logging in, there is probably a lot more serious issues that have pushed you in that direction already." which would look more like...
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/...236/Chart3.png

Which is showing fewer people wanting to log in till this kind of update would be done. Regardless, it's not what is being said. What is being said is that right now we're at that neutral point up above but doing this...
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/...236/Chart2.png

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Merits don't limit you, they give you choices for customization.

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They only give you choices for customization via limiting you. So that's basically saying they don't limit you, they just limit you. It's a "one man's trash is another man's treasure" situation, call it what you like it's a limiting system either way.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

That only makes you "unique" until you have every merit WS. It makes people feel obligated to get them all just because they can, even though they probably don't need them all. Once the active playerbase has done this, there is no difference from one player to another and the merit system has failed at its originally intended function of offering customization options.

Remove merit caps and the only uniqueness from one player to the next will be whether they are haves or have nots, and their character appearance (which has so few options that everyone has at least a few lookalikes).

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I'll take freedom and full functionality over uniqueness any day.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You overstate the impact of the system immensely.

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Well that's a catch 22. If it doesn't make a significant difference, then it doesn't make you significantly unique. So find some other way to be unique. This one is unimportant.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

I'll take freedom and full functionality over uniqueness any day.

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Since you still have both freedom. full functionality, I'll take the uniqueness.

1) Your jobs are fully functional. Nothing is preventing you from using them,t hey are not "crippled" because you didn't optimize your merits for them. You can still beat content on them. Not Minmaxed != Not fully functional

2) Because you are still able to use any job at will, you are able to change your merits, and you are not crippled by them, you still have full freedom to use any job.

//Cues Camiie stating the moon is made of green cheese and getting 5-10 likes for it

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They only give you choices for customization via limiting you.

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You aren't limited. If you could prove that certain content was unbeatable when playing with <insert job here> in the group if their merits weren't optimized for that job, then I would agree with you completely. But, you can't do that, because it simply isn't true. You're still free to use any job and still beat content. You're free to change your merits at any time with (relatively) low difficulty.

Uncapping merits is popular because who doesn't want more stuff? Who cares about good game design, as long as I get MOAR STUFF!

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As the player base gets smaller people will remember the little snow flakes and not invite them, so those people too will relent and give up their crap merits to be useful.

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It's more likely those people will either 1) quit the game or 2) only do solo stuff. The elitist community is shooting themselves in the foot and reducing overall server populations further by trying to get people who want to play the game their way to "relent," if you ask me. So by "remembering the little snow flakes and not inviting them" you are in some ways contributing to the death of the game.

I've made up my mind on this subject, i stated well in advance I understand most people don't see this the way I do, but the replies to my comments sure seem hell bent on proving me wrong and/or making me look bad. This is a discussion forum. I discuss. I shared my opinion. You've shared yours. It's obvious whose is more popular, so why are you attacking me? Are you afraid they might listen to me and not you? If I'm really 1 of 2 people in the entire community with my line of thought, then you don't have anything to worry about...

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You aren't limited. If you could prove that certain content was unbeatable when playing with <insert job here> in the group if their merits weren't optimized for that job, then I would agree with you completely. But, you can't do that, because it simply isn't true.

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Your definition of limited seems to be vastly different than what nearly anyone else would consider limited.

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Uncapping merits is popular because who doesn't want more stuff? Who cares about good game design, as long as I get MOAR STUFF!

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No. Good game design would be each and every Job Merit being roughly equal in utility. That's obviously not the case, hence most jobs have a fairly straight forward "this is what you merit." Some have some uniqueness and options to them, and the one's that do, I'd back as being good design.

However, that's on a per job basis. When you branch out into stats, weapon skills, magic skills, HP/MP, even +/- enmity, the limiting nature of the caps hinder jobs. Does it cripple as you keep saying? No, but it hinders, and who doesn't want to max out their character the best way that they can? How are you able to look past that as "customization" when it applies to all jobs, rather than just your current job, like Job Merits do.

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So by "remembering the little snow flakes and not inviting them" you are in some ways contributing to the death of the game.

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Not specifically you, but typically the snow flake players I've met are just, for lack of a better phrase, straight up bad. They're the Whms that can't keep a haste rotation, that are oblivious to the uses of Boost-spells and Dia, the DDs who don't WS swap, the melee mages that get one shot, etc. Pick your poison. But once your taint ruins runs, that's that, ya know? Gone or not, I don't think many really care.

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I've made up my mind on this subject, i stated well in advance I understand most people don't see this the way I do, but the replies to my comments sure seem hell bent on proving me wrong and/or making me look bad. This is a discussion forum. I discuss. I shared my opinion. You've shared yours. It's obvious whose is more popular, so why are you attacking me? Are you afraid they might listen to me and not you? If I'm really 1 of 2 people in the entire community with my line of thought, then you don't have anything to worry about...

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Fair enough. I'd imagine most replies came at the obvious lack of logic, and the overzealous feels of "dat customization!"

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Originally Posted by Malithar

However, that's on a per job basis. When you branch out into stats, weapon skills, magic skills, HP/MP, even +/- enmity, the limiting nature of the caps hinder jobs. Does it cripple as you keep saying? No, but it hinders, and who doesn't want to max out their character the best way that they can? How are you able to look past that as "customization" when it applies to all jobs, rather than just your current job, like Job Merits do.

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You seem to be looking at the merit system differently than others of us. To me, merits are that little bit of extra for the jobs I truly enjoy. I max out sword merits and its "Now I'm a little bit better when using a sword". If I'm interpreting you right, if you don't put any merits in sword, you see it as your sword skill not being capped. The only thing I could see as a hinderence to another job is the emnity+/-, just because some jobs want the hate and others don't.

This is reminding me of when I played D&D. I pick a rough idea of what I wanted with my character, and would maybe end up with 2 or 3 classes. Other people would spend hours trying to min/max everything they did trying to take 1 or 2 levels from 10 different jobs, then complain to the DM that the experience penalty for multiclassing was unfair.

I understand that there might be tradeoffs to being strong in one area but having to become weaker in another and I'm O.K. with that. But not everybody thinks that way.

I figured it out. The reason for not simply unlocking all the merits, or all the weaponskills is purely a business decision. If they unlock all the weaponskills and people level and merit the appropriate weaponskills, what is to keep them logging in?

Let's look at this realistically. There is very little real endgame content compared to any time in the past. There is skirmish, (which is dying quickly)m there are WKRs, (which other than a random shout here and there, are pretty much dead), there's delve, and the high tier battlefields, (which keep you busy until you get the one piece you're after, but feel more like a grind than anything else), and that's about it.

What's to keep people playing once they've leveled and fully merited their chars out? The whole reason, (IMO), is for you to level a job lower merits in one place then go out and merit again so you can keep busy and keep logging in until next months update comes. If everyone were to suddenly be able to merit everything people would be grinding in aby for a month or so, then they'd go do there favorite endgame on a couple of different jobs, figure they'd beaten the game and you'd never see them again. I know people are going to say I'm wrong, but I'm not. I've seen alot of people come and go over the years, and the main reason I've seen people leave is they get bored, and with the little real endgame content we have, if people were fully merited what's to keep them from becoming bored in a great big hurry. Right now you have to go re-merit to play your job 100% so you keep busy on and off, what's to happen when you don't even have that to do anymore?

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Originally Posted by Malithar

Fair enough. I'd imagine most replies came at the obvious lack of logic, and the overzealous feels of "dat customization!"

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There's also the overzealous feel of "I'm being hindered" with merit point system, but in reality you are not.

NONE of the stat merit are required to play the job and beat the content. NONE of the stat merit are limiting your ability to play the job. A WAR without HP 15/15 and DEX 15/15 can still berserk/warcry/ukko like every other WAR. NONE of the game content is based on everyone with perfect merit for their job.

I also don't understand the logic behind "If you like merit point system and decision making, you don't have logic. If you don't like merit point system you have logic." If there's a flaw in merit point system, such as certain choices are more popular than another, the right fix is to balance it, not remove it.

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Originally Posted by Afania

NONE of the stat merit are required to play the job and beat the content. NONE of the stat merit are limiting your ability to play the job. A WAR without HP 15/15 and DEX 15/15 can still berserk/warcry/ukko like every other WAR. NONE of the game content is based on everyone with perfect merit for their job.

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SE caved in to complaints about Divinator and Seraphicaller being exclusively available from alliance content. Why would they do that, none of that gear is required to play the job and beat the content.