Fulad's not a TP piece, it's a WS piece. I know it's best in slot for PLD CdC.
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Fulad's not a TP piece, it's a WS piece. I know it's best in slot for PLD CdC.
I agree, but a somewhat less impossible task would be to create events that demand jobs other than the flavor of the month/year. WoE sorta did this where any of the pet jobs make it much easier. this is true to a lesser extent with reives (can win easily with pet jobs, but "winning" doesn't necessarily earn you rewards, especially if there isn't anyone else around, forcing you to sic a pet on the main target while you hide in the corner), but often the problem is just player mentality, where no matter how easy it is to beat some event with X job, if you can do it faster with Y or Z job, everyone will go Y or Z and X will get left in the cold even if X makes things easier.Quote:
The new director has the right mindset when he told us that its unreasonable and impossible to balance all 22 jobs to be useful in every single event,
I'm curious as to your definition of successful, since your set-up sounds unorthodox. Were you only barely clearing wave #3 or were you going farther? Were you often winning mul and with how many kills?
I ask because I'm not sure how you even had a stun rotation with only two schs. Speaking specifically about sch I know I had to make an additional macc set separate from my haste and fast cast set even WITH apamajas II due to how resistant some of them are (i.e mantis). And no stunning really wasn't a common occurrence on sch before Prov / Legion. I had a set beforehand, but it was not nearly as intricate as it is now. So it's not too difficult to imagine that some schs wouldn't have that sort of gear.
And hint: no the group I played were not idiots :rolleyes:
Successful = Clearing Wave 3+ Consistently. I think in one instance i remember getting to wave 5, I think this was the one with the Harpy/4Swordguy? While I'm sure other groups have done better, for our group, it was more "We have good-to-great geared and skilled players, heres the plan, lets follow through".
Our first few runs were atrocious, but once we got into the swing of things, its when we began clearing more easily. the Second shell had most of the first shell, it was just under new leadership and had new faces.
Legion is really not that hard. It just takes open cooperation and everyone needs to know what they're doing. Mantis i admit was a bit difficult to stun, and at time even with the PAJAMAS II, can resist... Him, we didn't really try to rely heavily on Stun, and more tried to kill it before it killed us (Also utilizing available Weapon Bash to assist on he off chance...), Having our SCH have/build M.acc sets wasn't rough, and APAJAMAS would have been nice, but I don't think either had one. While i can't go into the intricacy of strategy, what you described is what all Legion groups have some trouble with, those particularly cheap mobs that are just plain annoying, and there is no skilling around cheap and bad design :|, which Legion does have a few of.
Now, if you have everything you listed, and still didn't quite clear 3+, I do have to apologize and say it was lack of cooperation or player understanding, not the event. However with a set up like you described, it would definitely make the event more easy-mode.
I think the second shell is still active, though i haven't been with them for a bit because of other matters :|
This is one of the reason I feel the game serve no purpose at the moment and might as well not participate on anything new till the end game is defined. At this point I am just probably looking for a good story line gladder than gear to be honest. So we most proceed in this order ? Empy +2 > VW armor > Meeble > neo Salvage, > neo Nysul > ?????
So you had no Arises for the worst cast scenario, only 2 stunners who didn't have macc staff (and have to rely on wild card to keep embrava up full time), and level 90 empy geared melee? Well color me impressed, cause my group probably couldn't do what your group did.
it was a LS i was in, not mine. cant take credit for their victories... just had good people and good leaders.
that and like any group we did not have a perfect record
Yes we won with consistency, this is why I'm listing the sort of equipment I've observed.
That's why I'm skeptical. I mean that could probably work in one of the lesser halls, but I doubt Mul was cleared consistently with the listed set-up when mobs like Gallu are factored in.
Mul was a pain in the but5. sorry cant explain in super detail cause im posting from a 3ds and its a pain
Where do you think arise and meteor comes from? That = the best drops from legion, not to mention the ormolu ingots.
If not for people doing legion arise and meteor would cost you 50m or whatever unless you were somehow lucky and got it from prov.
Learn some teamwork and get stuff done, and don't complain its too hard.
Because they would've gotten curb stomped. The "ungimped" legion was fun. Some of the rewards are nice. The abjuration gear was not thought out very well however.
It's not a very shout friendly event since there are roles that have to be played and minimum gear requirements. As to how the majority of the player base is mediocre, you sooner end up with a waste of time than a success. It was an event aimed at long time players that wanted a new challenge.
No. Not at all for ego issues. It's because some of us have had Empyrean +2 Armor for 3 years and cleared voidwatch and legion a long time ago. That is why new challenges and new gear come out. Because there are players who play for a long time and have obtained "good gear" and need an appropriate challenge. My question is why are you guys bitching about harder content? Why MUST you do THIS content just because it's there? Why MUST you skip over other things like getting an empyrean weapon, or nyzul gear, or salvage gear, or einherjar, or voidwatch, or legion but yet you MUST do Adoulin and Delve?
The cycle is: grow to obtain something. When you have obtained it, don't you need something worthy of using it on. At the same time, This something worthy needs to give a reward suitible for the effort put in to be able to triumph over this feat. With that reward you seek a challenge worthy of using it on...
In Mul, more than 2 deaths shouldn't be happening. Elemental seal on the Mantis for stuns. I dunno, we don't normally have a problem with it. I've always gone with groups similar to Krabnuckle's and on Mul we've reached up to 5th wave multiple times. I'm sch and my stun macro consists of Chatoyant, Hyaline Hate, Nares Saio, Sweven Slacks +1, Nares Clogs, Repartie Gloves, and a few other +1/2 pieces. I don't have any problems.
Oh, oh, I'll take this one. Because you don't want to seem like an elitist ass?
You are allowed to hold your linkshell to certain standards, but expecting your legion whms to already have the one big prize legion has for whms is... dumb. It's like refusing a sch from your nyzul static because they don't already have full nares. That's the whole freaking reason they're willing to come along.
Wait... it's elitist to expect WHMs to have a 4m spell for probably the most demanding event in the game at the moment? And we're acting like WHM is their only job and Arise is the whole reason that any WHM would want to do Legion? I don't even want to start this argument because we're obviously too far apart to come to any sort of agreement.
I took this from the Alla forums to illustrate my point more clearly. Draw your own conclusions.
The underlying thinking of this post is about as offensive as it can get--I won't even get too deep into the "American entitlement" BS. Even worse is that this mentality is being applied to a game.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBarrister
I see Arise as "If you have it, I love you, but if you don't, Whatev's we'll just have to prepare for the 5min weakness like we've done for the other 9 years it didnt exist". I can't expect it, cause as yinnyth said, Its pretty much the only reason a WHM only would do Legion >_>;, But I mean, Its very nice to have, but I'm not booting a WHM for not having it so long as they're competent in other regards.
Again, really nice to have, and a real help, but nots win or lose or boot worthy IMO, though I understand how some groups would need/expect that net, mistakes happen
They aren't exempt. Their standards are "Better Reaction speeds than a carrot" and more gear sets than Full Emp+2. Obviously everyone has different standards, but the convenience of shaving 2 minutes of weakness is not worth taking a moron who doesn't play the job well over a WHM without Arise who is competent and gear aplenty and knowledge to use it.
If you can find a great WHM with Arise? f**king Bonus, But I'll sooner invite a WHM who remembers how to Erase and does the job well over one who has Arise. My Standards are all on reaction speed and knowing how to use the gear you got, not a 4mil spell that drops from the event I'm inviting them for (and thus they will likely get it in time)
Basically, I don't think Having Arise is akin to having an Empyrean. The Level of performance in a DD with an emp/Rel/mythic95-99 vs one without is worlds apart, the difference between a WHM with or without Arise is a convenience of 2 minutes. One could of course argue that 2 minutes worth of DPS lost could equate to the difference in a 99RME vs a non, But that hypothetical person would not be me, as It would have to assume every DD dies at least once or some crap and I'm not willing to get into that kind of hypothetical debate >_> too much work lol.
BASICALLY FK YA ARISE BUT NOT WORTH WEEDING OUT OTHERWISE GOOD MAGES FOR IT. 'MURICA.
Oh absolutely. Of course I agree that a terrible WHM will do terribly, Arise or no. I've seen them.
But let me ask you this. Is it so unreasonable to ask someone to buy the scroll? Is 4m so excessive in this day and age, where the vast majority of WHM gear is r/ex? Also, if you find a WHM you are comfortable with, what's wrong with asking him to purchase the scroll to improve himself?
4mil is actually quite out of reach of most players these days still. Even a great WHM might not be able to make money like most, soloing Dynamis, or Salvage, so forth. While I won't pretend 4 Mil is unreasonable for anyone to get, I'm personally saving my gil for Skirmish items, which offer better rewards than Legion by about a thousand miles... so if i got invited to a Legion on WHM and was asked to shell out 4 mil for Arise, I'd politely decline and instead buy another Rala Visage or Faithful Leg/torso.
Basically, the rewards from that event are pretty downright crap or sidegrades outside of 2-3 Pieces tops, outside of Arise itself, WHM's have no real reason to bother, so asking them to purchase the item they're probably at the event to get Isn't making any friends and a little unreasonable.
What it boils down to is I feel Arise is a convenience, a d*mn good one, but not required for me to win, so I wouldn't weed out a WHM for not having it. If i felt it was necessary to win the event, I'd hold the same standard as you.
Well if we disagree on the difficulty of making 4m to buy your job's ultimate spell (I don't really mean this but it sort is the trophy spell) then I guess we will just have to disagree on that.
I also think it's illogical to assume that a WHM would have no other jobs leveled and therefore have no interest in any other drops. Why would this particular WHM with only one job want to buy a skirmish item? Are the WHM augments awesome?
Yes. It is, because while its great, it doesn't actually "improve" the person as much as it affords them a nice little "hey, look at this!" trick. Arise isn't really a game changer, its an awesome spell, but it's not going to be a deciding factor. (I kind of wish Arise was a merit and the scroll was for Arise-ga <-- THAT would be something I'd demand people get)
It's a luxury spell. Hell, some people would even consider Raise III a luxury spell with how expensive that can get -- but I'm of the mind set that R3 is part of the base set a WHM should have. It's like when I randomly hop on BLM, a job I have no real interest or concern for using beyond for procs in abyssea while working on seals/+2 items for jobs I actually like and people get on my case for not having Warp II.
I carry a warp scroll and two warp clubs on my person at all times, even when I'm on BLM I have them because I never take them out of my inventory. It is cheap and simple to facilitate your own transportation around in the game and the idea that people feel justified in hassling someone for not dropping half a mil or hours of their own time to save you 15 seconds and 10 conquest points seems incredibly silly to me.
Comparatively, Arise -- even though it is 10 times more useful -- is just one of those great things that helps, but will never be the difference between a win or a loss in any event. It's just a nice, bonus thing that makes life a bit easier in certain pressure situations, but a good WHM should be able to function just as well without it. Never has the phrase been uttered "we would have won if that damn WHM had Arise."
That's just my opinion though, personally I'd be afraid if a WHM was like "Don't worry, I have Arise."
My gut response would be: "...you expect to need it?"
Oh i know a WHM might have other jobs, which is why a specified a "WHM Only" in one of my posts. Still, as i said, I see where you're coming from, but I don't feel on the semi-rare occasion an important DD is murdered, shaving off 2 minutes is worth saying "no you can't come WHM".
Basically good players are in short supply, If i had ready access to good WHM's with Arise, they'd be on WHM, But given the choice, I'd chose a good WHM without arise over a bad one with it, or even an average one with it. It does just boil down to preference really, as its not an insane standard, just one that, if i had like you did, I'd probably break or bend it quite often ;p
Yeah, if you find a great WHM without who can't afford, just buy it for him. It's not worth losing a good healer over something like that. I'm well aware of how valuable a good WHM is (and why are the ones with the best reflexes always poor).
I think people underestimate how beneficial it is to get a DD up and running quicker. Sometimes it's more than one. Sometimes you wipe. My group is very imperfect. We've gotten almost all the gear we need out of Legion but I don't consider us to be exceptional. There have been time where we had a full wipe. It happens. When it does, you need to be able to recover as quickly as possible. That's where Arise (and multiple WHMs with Arise) are very beneficial. We've timed out on Botulus and Gallu for many reasons, and sometimes it's been the inability to recover from a wipe.
Maybe you don't NEED it. Maybe it is a luxury. But when the situation calls for it, you'll be very happy to have it.
Also Karbuncle, the reason I picked up on the single job thing is because you specified that a Skirmish piece would be a more worthwhile purchase, but that didn't seem to make sense for a person with only WHM leveled. Realistically, people have many jobs today. I think we can generally assume that our WHM in question has multiple jobs leveled. Arise would be nice but nowhere near the only draw, drop-wise.
Not disagreeing with the utility of it, just saying that there are some things you still, no matter how useful, hold over people's heads.
Again, just my opinion. Personally I think I'm moving towards avoiding most end-game events in this game (lack of good people to do them with, and way....waaaaay tired of random think-for-yourself'er LSs and PUGs), so it isn't really any of my concern.
I like how you make it sound like a WHM doesn't spend the same amount of time farming gear that any other job does, like our gear just rains from the sky or something. Well you're right, it does rain from the sky, along with gil and all of the scrolls. That's right, all of the scrolls. All of them.
I feel like you are trying to start a fight with your posting style. It would be difficult to put jobs side by side and figure out who has to farm more for their gear. While a melee might have to make an empyrean or relic weapon, a WHM might be expected to have a good idle set, capped cure potency, and good reactions. Wouldn't you say that for WHM, you don't need to spend a lot of gil on gear to get it up and running?
Strictly from a gil standpoint, only Raise III and Arise come to mind as expensive scrolls. Arise may represent a few Dynamis farming runs, but like I said earlier, Legion is currently the most challenging content in the game. It's not like I'm saying that Arise is required for VW or something.
Time and Gil are representative of the same thing. Either you spend Gil to buy things or farm yourself, either way effort was expended to achieve the same end. As a WHM you can show up to events looking like a clown and be completely functional in each category, or put forth the effort and obtain some "quality of life" upgrades, of which Arise is not very high priorities-wise. Every time I have the Gil lying around to buy it I think "I'm about to pay to be reminded that we're doing it wrong every time I cast this spell.", and thus have resolved to just do Legion runs with some friends until it drops. If that gets me booted from pickups, then oh well.
I agree with you, time and gil are essentially the same thing. Every minute you spend online has its worth. I disagree with your claim that you can look like a clown and be completely functional. Since you did say this after all.
I agree that WHM is less gear dependent than many jobs (you can have the absolute pinnacle of WHM gear and still be terrible). However, gear still makes you better. Just like Arise makes you better.
My Legion group is probably similar to yours. We have ups and downs. We have catastrophic wipes, we have runs where an additional mob could have been killed if we had more time or we had performed a little better that day. We have had runs where almost everything has gone right. People die sometimes.
Yeah, every time you cast Arise, it represents something bad happening. But you have to recover from that and move on. You try to do the best you can the rest of the run. Chances are, the person who died is important to the run's success. Therefore, getting him up and running as quickly as possible so he can do his job should be a priority.
Keep in mind that functional is not optimal, and can even be far less than optimal and still work in some cases. For example, capping cure potency gives us a huge variety of options (this is how to look like a clown) with varying degrees of performance. A WHM using Orison bliaud +2 with capped cures will have a different gearset than a WHM that uses the body slot to cap cures, both are at cap for potency but one is more efficient at mitigating damage.
As for gear dependancy it's really about what you're willing to put in, just like with every other job. Do I want to spend 4m on Arise? No. Will I? If I absolutely must, but I'm hoping to get it in a drop.
This is better. I think the back and forth has been more constructive than your original comment. Your view is a fair one. Functional WHM builds are straightforward to construct and can be very effective in the hands of a good player.
It's gotten lost a bit, but the original comment was about what was viewed as necessary to succeed at Legion. I still think that in order to do well, you have to have minimal standards/expectations of players. These standards should be higher than something like pickup voidwatch because Legion is more challenging and require more coordination for the entirety of a run. I understand that a group just starting out shouldn't expect to have all these things in place. We didn't when we started.
However, now that good working strategies have been developed within Legion, even people who haven't participated (but would like to) can have a good understanding of how to win with a little research. You'll need good stunners, good healing and support, exceptional DDs (your definition of exceptional may vary), and a good PLD who can hold the mobs you aren't fighting. So I think it's fair to have a certain expectation from each participant, because everybody has to pitch in to make the run successful. I view Arise as something that WHMs can bring to the table that makes the group better in a real way. I still think somebody who wants to participate in Legion should be willing to purchase Arise because it is no longer an exorbitant price, but obviously not everybody agrees. That is okay, even if I don't understand it. Although I guess it makes me an elitist ass as Yinnyth says.
I've never met an elitist open to conversation about anything, so you're doing it right as far as I can tell.
Most of the high-level players in the game are all about sharing information - actually! If you show a willingness to learn and a desire to improve you'll be accepted just about anywhere
I don't mind them trying to add in difficult events, but personally I wish they'd stick more to ~6 man events because gathering and managing 18 people is honestly more difficult than the event itself. That's how I feel about it, at least. I did Legion a few times and I honestly would've loved doing it a lot more if it wasn't so bothersome to even get that many people together at all.
I hope Delve will be like Salvage 2.0 in the sense that it doesn't require you to bring the maximum people it can hold, but I don't want it to be like Salvage 2.0 where it punishes you for bringing more people. I guess something like Meebles would work, where you get a significant increase in your points if you bring lots of people, with the addition of maybe having more drops slots if people come. I want to be able to play the content without having to worry too much about having my schedule happen to sync up with 17 other people.