So is delve for new lvl 99 players?

Fulad's not a TP piece, it's a WS piece. I know it's best in slot for PLD CdC.

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The new director has the right mindset when he told us that its unreasonable and impossible to balance all 22 jobs to be useful in every single event,

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I agree, but a somewhat less impossible task would be to create events that demand jobs other than the flavor of the month/year. WoE sorta did this where any of the pet jobs make it much easier. this is true to a lesser extent with reives (can win easily with pet jobs, but "winning" doesn't necessarily earn you rewards, especially if there isn't anyone else around, forcing you to sic a pet on the main target while you hide in the corner), but often the problem is just player mentality, where no matter how easy it is to beat some event with X job, if you can do it faster with Y or Z job, everyone will go Y or Z and X will get left in the cold even if X makes things easier.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Challenge Accepted. Been in 2 (two) Successful Legion Shells, Pre-Nerf and Post-Nerf. So shall we?

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-Do all of your whms have arise?

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Not a single one.

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-Do you have two DHarp bards?

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Nope, Think one had Ghorn, had more COR's though, I think on a run or two we may have picked up a BRD with a Daurd.

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-Do you have three apamajas II + stunset schs?

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Had 2 SCH's who were there for various reason that had Stun Sets, though I don't see how being able to play your job made this bullet point, as any respectable SCH should have a Stun set, and APDKPAJAMAS isn't required, only helpful.

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-Do you have two parties of R/E/M DD?

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Kinda, I know we had some 90 EMPs, Think a single 99 Mythic SAM joined us most often, had an Apoc DRK... Not much else.

Not like an 85-90 Empyrean is super hard to obtain, But Yah, Thats the one thing most of them had, though i think there was a DD or two with the WoE weapon.

and a Relic can be solo'd to 95 by even the most casual of casuals, just takes time, investment, work, effort... Those things.

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-Do you have an ochain PLD?

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Another Yes, We had one holding the mobs. But you could shout and find an Ochain PLD in probably 5 minutes or less, they're insanely common cause Ochain, while harder than some Empy's, are still lulz easy... If you're not lazy (like i am), You could probably get one in 2-3 Weeks if you've got liberal playtime and motivation, 2-3 Months if you're sooper-dooper lazy.

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Having all these at the same time can be quite the challenge, when previously the game pretty much required a party or less, and if it required 18 (i.e VW) the gear didn't have top notch on practically every party member with a high amount of party coordination.

This is all pre embrava nerf, I'm not sure how the event has changed afterwards.

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I will however break to say, I agree that this event is a little absurd, while not as hard as people constantly describe it (hint: most of the time its not your gear, its the level of idiots you play with... Sorry), Its still a bit of crazy for the path the game was going in at the time.

HOWEVER< i think the biggest reason Legion was a failure was that most of the rewards were just rediculous sidegrades, and even a bigger handful of them were just pure sh*t, half the drops looked like they could easily have come from Tier 1 Abyssea NMs or Walk of Echoes... the other half was so situational it was mediocre. The rewards just flat sucked except for maybe 1-2 pieces for SMN.

Again, You don't need all of the above, and difficulty is directly proportional to the intelligence of the group, while there is a gear check (Hint: DESIGN ASPECT OF MMOS), its not as severe if your players know what they're doing. stun sets, etc etc etc. :)

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I'm curious as to your definition of successful, since your set-up sounds unorthodox. Were you only barely clearing wave #3 or were you going farther? Were you often winning mul and with how many kills?

I ask because I'm not sure how you even had a stun rotation with only two schs. Speaking specifically about sch I know I had to make an additional macc set separate from my haste and fast cast set even WITH apamajas II due to how resistant some of them are (i.e mantis). And no stunning really wasn't a common occurrence on sch before Prov / Legion. I had a set beforehand, but it was not nearly as intricate as it is now. So it's not too difficult to imagine that some schs wouldn't have that sort of gear.

And hint: no the group I played were not idiots :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Dantedmc

I'm curious as to your definition of successful, since your set-up sounds unorthodox. Were you only barely clearing wave #3 or were you going farther? Were you often winning mul and with how many kills?

I ask because I'm not sure how you even had a stun rotation with only two schs. Speaking specifically about sch I know I had to make an additional macc set separate from my haste and fast cast set even WITH apamajas II due to how resistant some of them are (i.e mantis). And no stunning really wasn't a common occurrence on sch before Prov / Legion. I had a set beforehand, but it was not nearly as intricate as it is now. So it's not too difficult to imagine that some schs wouldn't have that sort of gear.

And hint: no the group I played were not idiots :rolleyes:

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Successful = Clearing Wave 3+ Consistently. I think in one instance i remember getting to wave 5, I think this was the one with the Harpy/4Swordguy? While I'm sure other groups have done better, for our group, it was more "We have good-to-great geared and skilled players, heres the plan, lets follow through".

Our first few runs were atrocious, but once we got into the swing of things, its when we began clearing more easily. the Second shell had most of the first shell, it was just under new leadership and had new faces.

Legion is really not that hard. It just takes open cooperation and everyone needs to know what they're doing. Mantis i admit was a bit difficult to stun, and at time even with the PAJAMAS II, can resist... Him, we didn't really try to rely heavily on Stun, and more tried to kill it before it killed us (Also utilizing available Weapon Bash to assist on he off chance...), Having our SCH have/build M.acc sets wasn't rough, and APAJAMAS would have been nice, but I don't think either had one. While i can't go into the intricacy of strategy, what you described is what all Legion groups have some trouble with, those particularly cheap mobs that are just plain annoying, and there is no skilling around cheap and bad design :|, which Legion does have a few of.

Now, if you have everything you listed, and still didn't quite clear 3+, I do have to apologize and say it was lack of cooperation or player understanding, not the event. However with a set up like you described, it would definitely make the event more easy-mode.

I think the second shell is still active, though i haven't been with them for a bit because of other matters :|

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Originally Posted by Caketime

No matter how much I try to think about gear progression via events logically, I still cannot get past the fact that we're collecting pants in order to collect slightly better pants later, or in the case of many sets of gear, pants that are somewhat better than these other pants on Tuesday, but not Thursday or Saturday.

Too many pairs of pants if you ask me.

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This is one of the reason I feel the game serve no purpose at the moment and might as well not participate on anything new till the end game is defined. At this point I am just probably looking for a good story line gladder than gear to be honest. So we most proceed in this order ? Empy +2 > VW armor > Meeble > neo Salvage, > neo Nysul > ?????

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

This is the same exact racism that should be eradicated from this game.

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lol wut? How is having crappy gear/being lazy denoting racism?

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Originally Posted by Sfchakan

Fulad's not a TP piece, it's a WS piece. I know it's best in slot for PLD CdC.

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I was pretty sure Kariyah Hauberk kinda won over Fulad's or I could be wrong I dunno.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Successful = Clearing Wave 3+ Consistently. I think in one instance i remember getting to wave 5, I think this was the one with the Harpy/4Swordguy? While I'm sure other groups have done better, for our group, it was more "We have good-to-great geared and skilled players, heres the plan, lets follow through".

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So you had no Arises for the worst cast scenario, only 2 stunners who didn't have macc staff (and have to rely on wild card to keep embrava up full time), and level 90 empy geared melee? Well color me impressed, cause my group probably couldn't do what your group did.

it was a LS i was in, not mine. cant take credit for their victories... just had good people and good leaders.

that and like any group we did not have a perfect record

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Now, if you have everything you listed, and still didn't quite clear 3+, I do have to apologize and say it was lack of cooperation or player understanding, not the event. However with a set up like you described, it would definitely make the event more easy-mode.

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Yes we won with consistency, this is why I'm listing the sort of equipment I've observed.

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Originally Posted by detlef

So you had no Arises for the worst cast scenario, only 2 stunners who didn't have macc staff (and have to rely on wild card to keep embrava up full time), and level 90 empy geared melee? Well color me impressed, cause my group probably couldn't do what your group did.

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That's why I'm skeptical. I mean that could probably work in one of the lesser halls, but I doubt Mul was cleared consistently with the listed set-up when mobs like Gallu are factored in.

Mul was a pain in the but5. sorry cant explain in super detail cause im posting from a 3ds and its a pain

Where do you think arise and meteor comes from? That = the best drops from legion, not to mention the ormolu ingots.
If not for people doing legion arise and meteor would cost you 50m or whatever unless you were somehow lucky and got it from prov.

Learn some teamwork and get stuff done, and don't complain its too hard.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

About legion though, the FFXI community doesn't really like it very much. You rarely see shouts for it. I seen maybe like 10 or so shouts ever for it. I always wanted to try it but every time I saw a shout for it I was already committed to doing something else usually joined a VW or NNI shout.

I am not even sure why people don't want to do legion.

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Because they would've gotten curb stomped. The "ungimped" legion was fun. Some of the rewards are nice. The abjuration gear was not thought out very well however.

It's not a very shout friendly event since there are roles that have to be played and minimum gear requirements. As to how the majority of the player base is mediocre, you sooner end up with a waste of time than a success. It was an event aimed at long time players that wanted a new challenge.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Looks like this is a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" in the case of the development team. Accessible gear (Empyrean +2 Armor, for example) just is not acceptable to some people who feel the need to look down on everyone else and the devs cater to these insecure gaming geeks with content that locks out anyone who doesn't have Relic/Empyrean/ Mythic weapons, VoidWatch gear, or New Nyzul gear. In some cases, the content is made practically unwinnable with most jobs (see New Nyzul, Legion, etc.).

One question the developers need to ask themselves: What point is there to making gear drops in content that doesn't allow most jobs to take advantage of it?

Edit: The above post makes my point for me before I could even post this. Too many people seem to want Empyrean +2 armor to become as meaningless as Relic Armor became at 75...and for what? To inflate their already out-of-control egos?

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No. Not at all for ego issues. It's because some of us have had Empyrean +2 Armor for 3 years and cleared voidwatch and legion a long time ago. That is why new challenges and new gear come out. Because there are players who play for a long time and have obtained "good gear" and need an appropriate challenge. My question is why are you guys bitching about harder content? Why MUST you do THIS content just because it's there? Why MUST you skip over other things like getting an empyrean weapon, or nyzul gear, or salvage gear, or einherjar, or voidwatch, or legion but yet you MUST do Adoulin and Delve?

The cycle is: grow to obtain something. When you have obtained it, don't you need something worthy of using it on. At the same time, This something worthy needs to give a reward suitible for the effort put in to be able to triumph over this feat. With that reward you seek a challenge worthy of using it on...

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Originally Posted by detlef

So you had no Arises for the worst cast scenario, only 2 stunners who didn't have macc staff (and have to rely on wild card to keep embrava up full time), and level 90 empy geared melee? Well color me impressed, cause my group probably couldn't do what your group did.

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In Mul, more than 2 deaths shouldn't be happening. Elemental seal on the Mantis for stuns. I dunno, we don't normally have a problem with it. I've always gone with groups similar to Krabnuckle's and on Mul we've reached up to 5th wave multiple times. I'm sch and my stun macro consists of Chatoyant, Hyaline Hate, Nares Saio, Sweven Slacks +1, Nares Clogs, Repartie Gloves, and a few other +1/2 pieces. I don't have any problems.

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Originally Posted by Miiyo

In Mul, more than 2 deaths shouldn't be happening. Elemental seal on the Mantis for stuns. I dunno, we don't normally have a problem with it. I've always gone with groups similar to Krabnuckle's and on Mul we've reached up to 5th wave multiple times. I'm sch and my stun macro consists of Chatoyant, Hyaline Hate, Nares Saio, Sweven Slacks +1, Nares Clogs, Repartie Gloves, and a few other +1/2 pieces. I don't have any problems.

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Sure death shouldn't happen but sometimes things get through. And when they do it's helpful to have a 3 minute weakness. Why *shouldn't* you expect your WHMs to have Arise?

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Originally Posted by detlef

Sure death shouldn't happen but sometimes things get through. And when they do it's helpful to have a 3 minute weakness. Why *shouldn't* you expect your WHMs to have Arise?

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Oh, oh, I'll take this one. Because you don't want to seem like an elitist ass?

You are allowed to hold your linkshell to certain standards, but expecting your legion whms to already have the one big prize legion has for whms is... dumb. It's like refusing a sch from your nyzul static because they don't already have full nares. That's the whole freaking reason they're willing to come along.

Wait... it's elitist to expect WHMs to have a 4m spell for probably the most demanding event in the game at the moment? And we're acting like WHM is their only job and Arise is the whole reason that any WHM would want to do Legion? I don't even want to start this argument because we're obviously too far apart to come to any sort of agreement.

I took this from the Alla forums to illustrate my point more clearly. Draw your own conclusions.

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Originally Posted by TheBarrister

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Originally Posted by Professor Shock Vlorsutes

They need content that's fun but challenging, with a difficulty level high enough to appeal to those more veteran players. There's a lot of content out for the more casual ones, but there's nothing I'd consider difficult content wise right now. Sure, how they said it probably wasn't the most eloquent way of putting it, but I understand the reasons behind them saying that.

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I think it was perfectly eloquent if you understand the Japanese way of thinking, which in this case has a lot more common sense than the American way of thinking of entitlement. In their culture, it's okay to cut your teeth, and they would rather risk making it harder on newcomers (if not outright condone this) than offending their loyal, dues paying, members. This is the way practically all memberships work in Japan.

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The underlying thinking of this post is about as offensive as it can get--I won't even get too deep into the "American entitlement" BS. Even worse is that this mentality is being applied to a game.

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Originally Posted by detlef

Wait... it's elitist to expect WHMs to have a 4m spell for probably the most demanding event in the game at the moment? And we're acting like WHM is their only job and Arise is the whole reason that any WHM would want to do Legion? I don't even want to start this argument because we're obviously too far apart to come to any sort of agreement.

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HEY NEW LEGION WHM, Y U NO HAVE ARISE ALREADY?!

I'm hoping that by being obnoxious you see the point very clearly.

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Originally Posted by detlef

Sure death shouldn't happen but sometimes things get through. And when they do it's helpful to have a 3 minute weakness. Why *shouldn't* you expect your WHMs to have Arise?

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I see Arise as "If you have it, I love you, but if you don't, Whatev's we'll just have to prepare for the 5min weakness like we've done for the other 9 years it didnt exist". I can't expect it, cause as yinnyth said, Its pretty much the only reason a WHM only would do Legion >_>;, But I mean, Its very nice to have, but I'm not booting a WHM for not having it so long as they're competent in other regards.

Again, really nice to have, and a real help, but nots win or lose or boot worthy IMO, though I understand how some groups would need/expect that net, mistakes happen

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Originally Posted by Caketime

HEY NEW LEGION WHM, Y U NO HAVE ARISE ALREADY?!

I'm hoping that by being obnoxious you see the point very clearly.

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You needn't post in that style. It's not necessary.

I don't know, don't we have standards for DDs? Don't we have standards for PLDs? Why are healers exempt from this? Do people consider paying 4m for a scroll to be excessive?

They aren't exempt. Their standards are "Better Reaction speeds than a carrot" and more gear sets than Full Emp+2. Obviously everyone has different standards, but the convenience of shaving 2 minutes of weakness is not worth taking a moron who doesn't play the job well over a WHM without Arise who is competent and gear aplenty and knowledge to use it.

If you can find a great WHM with Arise? f**king Bonus, But I'll sooner invite a WHM who remembers how to Erase and does the job well over one who has Arise. My Standards are all on reaction speed and knowing how to use the gear you got, not a 4mil spell that drops from the event I'm inviting them for (and thus they will likely get it in time)

Basically, I don't think Having Arise is akin to having an Empyrean. The Level of performance in a DD with an emp/Rel/mythic95-99 vs one without is worlds apart, the difference between a WHM with or without Arise is a convenience of 2 minutes. One could of course argue that 2 minutes worth of DPS lost could equate to the difference in a 99RME vs a non, But that hypothetical person would not be me, as It would have to assume every DD dies at least once or some crap and I'm not willing to get into that kind of hypothetical debate >_> too much work lol.

BASICALLY FK YA ARISE BUT NOT WORTH WEEDING OUT OTHERWISE GOOD MAGES FOR IT. 'MURICA.

Oh absolutely. Of course I agree that a terrible WHM will do terribly, Arise or no. I've seen them.

But let me ask you this. Is it so unreasonable to ask someone to buy the scroll? Is 4m so excessive in this day and age, where the vast majority of WHM gear is r/ex? Also, if you find a WHM you are comfortable with, what's wrong with asking him to purchase the scroll to improve himself?

4mil is actually quite out of reach of most players these days still. Even a great WHM might not be able to make money like most, soloing Dynamis, or Salvage, so forth. While I won't pretend 4 Mil is unreasonable for anyone to get, I'm personally saving my gil for Skirmish items, which offer better rewards than Legion by about a thousand miles... so if i got invited to a Legion on WHM and was asked to shell out 4 mil for Arise, I'd politely decline and instead buy another Rala Visage or Faithful Leg/torso.

Basically, the rewards from that event are pretty downright crap or sidegrades outside of 2-3 Pieces tops, outside of Arise itself, WHM's have no real reason to bother, so asking them to purchase the item they're probably at the event to get Isn't making any friends and a little unreasonable.

What it boils down to is I feel Arise is a convenience, a d*mn good one, but not required for me to win, so I wouldn't weed out a WHM for not having it. If i felt it was necessary to win the event, I'd hold the same standard as you.

Well if we disagree on the difficulty of making 4m to buy your job's ultimate spell (I don't really mean this but it sort is the trophy spell) then I guess we will just have to disagree on that.

I also think it's illogical to assume that a WHM would have no other jobs leveled and therefore have no interest in any other drops. Why would this particular WHM with only one job want to buy a skirmish item? Are the WHM augments awesome?

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Originally Posted by detlef

Oh absolutely. Of course I agree that a terrible WHM will do terribly, Arise or no. I've seen them.

But let me ask you this. Is it so unreasonable to ask someone to buy the scroll? Is 4m so excessive in this day and age, where the vast majority of WHM gear is r/ex? Also, if you find a WHM you are comfortable with, what's wrong with asking him to purchase the scroll to improve himself?

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Yes. It is, because while its great, it doesn't actually "improve" the person as much as it affords them a nice little "hey, look at this!" trick. Arise isn't really a game changer, its an awesome spell, but it's not going to be a deciding factor. (I kind of wish Arise was a merit and the scroll was for Arise-ga <-- THAT would be something I'd demand people get)

It's a luxury spell. Hell, some people would even consider Raise III a luxury spell with how expensive that can get -- but I'm of the mind set that R3 is part of the base set a WHM should have. It's like when I randomly hop on BLM, a job I have no real interest or concern for using beyond for procs in abyssea while working on seals/+2 items for jobs I actually like and people get on my case for not having Warp II.

I carry a warp scroll and two warp clubs on my person at all times, even when I'm on BLM I have them because I never take them out of my inventory. It is cheap and simple to facilitate your own transportation around in the game and the idea that people feel justified in hassling someone for not dropping half a mil or hours of their own time to save you 15 seconds and 10 conquest points seems incredibly silly to me.

Comparatively, Arise -- even though it is 10 times more useful -- is just one of those great things that helps, but will never be the difference between a win or a loss in any event. It's just a nice, bonus thing that makes life a bit easier in certain pressure situations, but a good WHM should be able to function just as well without it. Never has the phrase been uttered "we would have won if that damn WHM had Arise."

That's just my opinion though, personally I'd be afraid if a WHM was like "Don't worry, I have Arise."

My gut response would be: "...you expect to need it?"

Oh i know a WHM might have other jobs, which is why a specified a "WHM Only" in one of my posts. Still, as i said, I see where you're coming from, but I don't feel on the semi-rare occasion an important DD is murdered, shaving off 2 minutes is worth saying "no you can't come WHM".

Basically good players are in short supply, If i had ready access to good WHM's with Arise, they'd be on WHM, But given the choice, I'd chose a good WHM without arise over a bad one with it, or even an average one with it. It does just boil down to preference really, as its not an insane standard, just one that, if i had like you did, I'd probably break or bend it quite often ;p

Yeah, if you find a great WHM without who can't afford, just buy it for him. It's not worth losing a good healer over something like that. I'm well aware of how valuable a good WHM is (and why are the ones with the best reflexes always poor).

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Originally Posted by Horadrim

Never has the phrase been uttered "we would have won if that damn WHM had Arise."

That's just my opinion though, personally I'd be afraid if a WHM was like "Don't worry, I have Arise."

My gut response would be: "...you expect to need it?"

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I think people underestimate how beneficial it is to get a DD up and running quicker. Sometimes it's more than one. Sometimes you wipe. My group is very imperfect. We've gotten almost all the gear we need out of Legion but I don't consider us to be exceptional. There have been time where we had a full wipe. It happens. When it does, you need to be able to recover as quickly as possible. That's where Arise (and multiple WHMs with Arise) are very beneficial. We've timed out on Botulus and Gallu for many reasons, and sometimes it's been the inability to recover from a wipe.

Maybe you don't NEED it. Maybe it is a luxury. But when the situation calls for it, you'll be very happy to have it.

Also Karbuncle, the reason I picked up on the single job thing is because you specified that a Skirmish piece would be a more worthwhile purchase, but that didn't seem to make sense for a person with only WHM leveled. Realistically, people have many jobs today. I think we can generally assume that our WHM in question has multiple jobs leveled. Arise would be nice but nowhere near the only draw, drop-wise.

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Originally Posted by detlef

Yeah, if you find a great WHM without who can't afford, just buy it for him. It's not worth losing a good healer over something like that. I'm well aware of how valuable a good WHM is (and why are the ones with the best reflexes always poor).

I think people underestimate how beneficial it is to get a DD up and running quicker. Sometimes it's more than one. Sometimes you wipe. My group is very imperfect. We've gotten almost all the gear we need out of Legion but I don't consider us to be exceptional. There have been time where we had a full wipe. It happens. When it does, you need to be able to recover as quickly as possible. That's where Arise (and multiple WHMs with Arise) are very beneficial. We've timed out on Botulus and Gallu for many reasons, and sometimes it's been the inability to recover from a wipe.

Maybe you don't NEED it. Maybe it is a luxury. But when the situation calls for it, you'll be very happy to have it.

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Not disagreeing with the utility of it, just saying that there are some things you still, no matter how useful, hold over people's heads.

Again, just my opinion. Personally I think I'm moving towards avoiding most end-game events in this game (lack of good people to do them with, and way....waaaaay tired of random think-for-yourself'er LSs and PUGs), so it isn't really any of my concern.

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Originally Posted by detlef

You needn't post in that style. It's not necessary.

I don't know, don't we have standards for DDs? Don't we have standards for PLDs? Why are healers exempt from this? Do people consider paying 4m for a scroll to be excessive?

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I like how you make it sound like a WHM doesn't spend the same amount of time farming gear that any other job does, like our gear just rains from the sky or something. Well you're right, it does rain from the sky, along with gil and all of the scrolls. That's right, all of the scrolls. All of them.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

I like how you make it sound like a WHM doesn't spend the same amount of time farming gear that any other job does, like our gear just rains from the sky or something. Well you're right, it does rain from the sky, along with gil and all of the scrolls. That's right, all of the scrolls. All of them.

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I feel like you are trying to start a fight with your posting style. It would be difficult to put jobs side by side and figure out who has to farm more for their gear. While a melee might have to make an empyrean or relic weapon, a WHM might be expected to have a good idle set, capped cure potency, and good reactions. Wouldn't you say that for WHM, you don't need to spend a lot of gil on gear to get it up and running?

Strictly from a gil standpoint, only Raise III and Arise come to mind as expensive scrolls. Arise may represent a few Dynamis farming runs, but like I said earlier, Legion is currently the most challenging content in the game. It's not like I'm saying that Arise is required for VW or something.

Time and Gil are representative of the same thing. Either you spend Gil to buy things or farm yourself, either way effort was expended to achieve the same end. As a WHM you can show up to events looking like a clown and be completely functional in each category, or put forth the effort and obtain some "quality of life" upgrades, of which Arise is not very high priorities-wise. Every time I have the Gil lying around to buy it I think "I'm about to pay to be reminded that we're doing it wrong every time I cast this spell.", and thus have resolved to just do Legion runs with some friends until it drops. If that gets me booted from pickups, then oh well.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Time and Gil are representative of the same thing. Either you spend Gil to buy things or farm yourself, either way effort was expended to achieve the same end. As a WHM you can show up to events looking like a clown and be completely functional in each category, or put forth the effort and obtain some "quality of life" upgrades, of which Arise is not very high priorities-wise.

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I agree with you, time and gil are essentially the same thing. Every minute you spend online has its worth. I disagree with your claim that you can look like a clown and be completely functional. Since you did say this after all.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

I like how you make it sound like a WHM doesn't spend the same amount of time farming gear that any other job does

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I agree that WHM is less gear dependent than many jobs (you can have the absolute pinnacle of WHM gear and still be terrible). However, gear still makes you better. Just like Arise makes you better.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Every time I have the Gil lying around to buy it I think "I'm about to pay to be reminded that we're doing it wrong every time I cast this spell.", and thus have resolved to just do Legion runs with some friends until it drops. If that gets me booted from pickups, then oh well.

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My Legion group is probably similar to yours. We have ups and downs. We have catastrophic wipes, we have runs where an additional mob could have been killed if we had more time or we had performed a little better that day. We have had runs where almost everything has gone right. People die sometimes.

Yeah, every time you cast Arise, it represents something bad happening. But you have to recover from that and move on. You try to do the best you can the rest of the run. Chances are, the person who died is important to the run's success. Therefore, getting him up and running as quickly as possible so he can do his job should be a priority.

Keep in mind that functional is not optimal, and can even be far less than optimal and still work in some cases. For example, capping cure potency gives us a huge variety of options (this is how to look like a clown) with varying degrees of performance. A WHM using Orison bliaud +2 with capped cures will have a different gearset than a WHM that uses the body slot to cap cures, both are at cap for potency but one is more efficient at mitigating damage.

As for gear dependancy it's really about what you're willing to put in, just like with every other job. Do I want to spend 4m on Arise? No. Will I? If I absolutely must, but I'm hoping to get it in a drop.

This is better. I think the back and forth has been more constructive than your original comment. Your view is a fair one. Functional WHM builds are straightforward to construct and can be very effective in the hands of a good player.

It's gotten lost a bit, but the original comment was about what was viewed as necessary to succeed at Legion. I still think that in order to do well, you have to have minimal standards/expectations of players. These standards should be higher than something like pickup voidwatch because Legion is more challenging and require more coordination for the entirety of a run. I understand that a group just starting out shouldn't expect to have all these things in place. We didn't when we started.

However, now that good working strategies have been developed within Legion, even people who haven't participated (but would like to) can have a good understanding of how to win with a little research. You'll need good stunners, good healing and support, exceptional DDs (your definition of exceptional may vary), and a good PLD who can hold the mobs you aren't fighting. So I think it's fair to have a certain expectation from each participant, because everybody has to pitch in to make the run successful. I view Arise as something that WHMs can bring to the table that makes the group better in a real way. I still think somebody who wants to participate in Legion should be willing to purchase Arise because it is no longer an exorbitant price, but obviously not everybody agrees. That is okay, even if I don't understand it. Although I guess it makes me an elitist ass as Yinnyth says.

I've never met an elitist open to conversation about anything, so you're doing it right as far as I can tell.

Most of the high-level players in the game are all about sharing information - actually! If you show a willingness to learn and a desire to improve you'll be accepted just about anywhere

I don't mind them trying to add in difficult events, but personally I wish they'd stick more to ~6 man events because gathering and managing 18 people is honestly more difficult than the event itself. That's how I feel about it, at least. I did Legion a few times and I honestly would've loved doing it a lot more if it wasn't so bothersome to even get that many people together at all.

I hope Delve will be like Salvage 2.0 in the sense that it doesn't require you to bring the maximum people it can hold, but I don't want it to be like Salvage 2.0 where it punishes you for bringing more people. I guess something like Meebles would work, where you get a significant increase in your points if you bring lots of people, with the addition of maybe having more drops slots if people come. I want to be able to play the content without having to worry too much about having my schedule happen to sync up with 17 other people.