So is delve for new lvl 99 players?

[Karbuncle]

Sure death shouldn't happen but sometimes things get through. And when they do it's helpful to have a 3 minute weakness. Why *shouldn't* you expect your WHMs to have Arise?

I see Arise as "If you have it, I love you, but if you don't, Whatev's we'll just have to prepare for the 5min weakness like we've done for the other 9 years it didnt exist". I can't expect it, cause as yinnyth said, Its pretty much the only reason a WHM only would do Legion >_>;, But I mean, Its very nice to have, but I'm not booting a WHM for not having it so long as they're competent in other regards.

Again, really nice to have, and a real help, but nots win or lose or boot worthy IMO, though I understand how some groups would need/expect that net, mistakes happen

[detlef]

HEY NEW LEGION WHM, Y U NO HAVE ARISE ALREADY?!

I'm hoping that by being obnoxious you see the point very clearly.

You needn't post in that style. It's not necessary.

I don't know, don't we have standards for DDs? Don't we have standards for PLDs? Why are healers exempt from this? Do people consider paying 4m for a scroll to be excessive?

[Karbuncle]

They aren't exempt. Their standards are "Better Reaction speeds than a carrot" and more gear sets than Full Emp+2. Obviously everyone has different standards, but the convenience of shaving 2 minutes of weakness is not worth taking a moron who doesn't play the job well over a WHM without Arise who is competent and gear aplenty and knowledge to use it.

If you can find a great WHM with Arise? f**king Bonus, But I'll sooner invite a WHM who remembers how to Erase and does the job well over one who has Arise. My Standards are all on reaction speed and knowing how to use the gear you got, not a 4mil spell that drops from the event I'm inviting them for (and thus they will likely get it in time)

Basically, I don't think Having Arise is akin to having an Empyrean. The Level of performance in a DD with an emp/Rel/mythic95-99 vs one without is worlds apart, the difference between a WHM with or without Arise is a convenience of 2 minutes. One could of course argue that 2 minutes worth of DPS lost could equate to the difference in a 99RME vs a non, But that hypothetical person would not be me, as It would have to assume every DD dies at least once or some crap and I'm not willing to get into that kind of hypothetical debate >_> too much work lol.

BASICALLY FK YA ARISE BUT NOT WORTH WEEDING OUT OTHERWISE GOOD MAGES FOR IT. 'MURICA.

[detlef]

Oh absolutely. Of course I agree that a terrible WHM will do terribly, Arise or no. I've seen them.

But let me ask you this. Is it so unreasonable to ask someone to buy the scroll? Is 4m so excessive in this day and age, where the vast majority of WHM gear is r/ex? Also, if you find a WHM you are comfortable with, what's wrong with asking him to purchase the scroll to improve himself?

[Karbuncle]

4mil is actually quite out of reach of most players these days still. Even a great WHM might not be able to make money like most, soloing Dynamis, or Salvage, so forth. While I won't pretend 4 Mil is unreasonable for anyone to get, I'm personally saving my gil for Skirmish items, which offer better rewards than Legion by about a thousand miles... so if i got invited to a Legion on WHM and was asked to shell out 4 mil for Arise, I'd politely decline and instead buy another Rala Visage or Faithful Leg/torso.

Basically, the rewards from that event are pretty downright crap or sidegrades outside of 2-3 Pieces tops, outside of Arise itself, WHM's have no real reason to bother, so asking them to purchase the item they're probably at the event to get Isn't making any friends and a little unreasonable.

What it boils down to is I feel Arise is a convenience, a d*mn good one, but not required for me to win, so I wouldn't weed out a WHM for not having it. If i felt it was necessary to win the event, I'd hold the same standard as you.

[detlef]

Well if we disagree on the difficulty of making 4m to buy your job's ultimate spell (I don't really mean this but it sort is the trophy spell) then I guess we will just have to disagree on that.

I also think it's illogical to assume that a WHM would have no other jobs leveled and therefore have no interest in any other drops. Why would this particular WHM with only one job want to buy a skirmish item? Are the WHM augments awesome?

[Horadrim]

Oh absolutely. Of course I agree that a terrible WHM will do terribly, Arise or no. I've seen them.

But let me ask you this. Is it so unreasonable to ask someone to buy the scroll? Is 4m so excessive in this day and age, where the vast majority of WHM gear is r/ex? Also, if you find a WHM you are comfortable with, what's wrong with asking him to purchase the scroll to improve himself?

Yes. It is, because while its great, it doesn't actually "improve" the person as much as it affords them a nice little "hey, look at this!" trick. Arise isn't really a game changer, its an awesome spell, but it's not going to be a deciding factor. (I kind of wish Arise was a merit and the scroll was for Arise-ga <-- THAT would be something I'd demand people get)

It's a luxury spell. Hell, some people would even consider Raise III a luxury spell with how expensive that can get -- but I'm of the mind set that R3 is part of the base set a WHM should have. It's like when I randomly hop on BLM, a job I have no real interest or concern for using beyond for procs in abyssea while working on seals/+2 items for jobs I actually like and people get on my case for not having Warp II.

I carry a warp scroll and two warp clubs on my person at all times, even when I'm on BLM I have them because I never take them out of my inventory. It is cheap and simple to facilitate your own transportation around in the game and the idea that people feel justified in hassling someone for not dropping half a mil or hours of their own time to save you 15 seconds and 10 conquest points seems incredibly silly to me.

Comparatively, Arise -- even though it is 10 times more useful -- is just one of those great things that helps, but will never be the difference between a win or a loss in any event. It's just a nice, bonus thing that makes life a bit easier in certain pressure situations, but a good WHM should be able to function just as well without it. Never has the phrase been uttered "we would have won if that damn WHM had Arise."

That's just my opinion though, personally I'd be afraid if a WHM was like "Don't worry, I have Arise."

My gut response would be: "...you expect to need it?"

[Karbuncle]

Oh i know a WHM might have other jobs, which is why a specified a "WHM Only" in one of my posts. Still, as i said, I see where you're coming from, but I don't feel on the semi-rare occasion an important DD is murdered, shaving off 2 minutes is worth saying "no you can't come WHM".

Basically good players are in short supply, If i had ready access to good WHM's with Arise, they'd be on WHM, But given the choice, I'd chose a good WHM without arise over a bad one with it, or even an average one with it. It does just boil down to preference really, as its not an insane standard, just one that, if i had like you did, I'd probably break or bend it quite often ;p

[detlef]

Yeah, if you find a great WHM without who can't afford, just buy it for him. It's not worth losing a good healer over something like that. I'm well aware of how valuable a good WHM is (and why are the ones with the best reflexes always poor).

Never has the phrase been uttered "we would have won if that damn WHM had Arise."

That's just my opinion though, personally I'd be afraid if a WHM was like "Don't worry, I have Arise."

My gut response would be: "...you expect to need it?"

I think people underestimate how beneficial it is to get a DD up and running quicker. Sometimes it's more than one. Sometimes you wipe. My group is very imperfect. We've gotten almost all the gear we need out of Legion but I don't consider us to be exceptional. There have been time where we had a full wipe. It happens. When it does, you need to be able to recover as quickly as possible. That's where Arise (and multiple WHMs with Arise) are very beneficial. We've timed out on Botulus and Gallu for many reasons, and sometimes it's been the inability to recover from a wipe.

Maybe you don't NEED it. Maybe it is a luxury. But when the situation calls for it, you'll be very happy to have it.

[detlef]

Also Karbuncle, the reason I picked up on the single job thing is because you specified that a Skirmish piece would be a more worthwhile purchase, but that didn't seem to make sense for a person with only WHM leveled. Realistically, people have many jobs today. I think we can generally assume that our WHM in question has multiple jobs leveled. Arise would be nice but nowhere near the only draw, drop-wise.