Enmity imbalance?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karah

Obviously, it was hyperbole, but not that far from accurate. I'm well aware of the values, and mechanics.

It's that the (umbrils in that post) take so little damage from melee, that ~2,000 damage wasn't enough to hold enmity over a single cast of auspice, or regen 4.

Obviously after being hit, as they have near perfect accuracy. (in a "standard" tp set)

Enmity needed adjusting, I just think they overshot it, by a little (lot).

---

2000 damage + the melee hits involved to get that TP should of been plenty, we're talking ~800 CE and another ~2400 VE.

The only part that is "broken" is they didn't adjust Cure V's CE/VE values to be in line with everything else, it's actually the worse heal by far to use for enmity now.

Not every job can "tank" something WHM + XXX like they used to unfortunately. Were you /DNC? Did you not build steps up for animated flourish? It'll provide the big early VE boost through it'll become useless after a min or two of fighting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Godofgods

yea, your right, its a lie. Everyone got together and decided to commutatively complain about this because we had nothing better to do. And there is nothing else going on in this game that was worthy enough of or time... -_-

---

What I'm saying isn't that what you're describing is impossible in the sense that it isn't occuring at all, but that there's a claim that you're playing reasonably and having problems with enmity. We know exactly how enmity works and the only reason cures outside of 5 and 6 are pulling hate is if you are playing completely recklessly. (Seriously, everything got reduced to 30% evenly, logically it would make 0 sense for you to be pulling hate more than you used to from doing cure 1-4) If you are full-timing berserk and counterstance and constantly taking thousand-damage hits that require curing back up, and you lose hate because of that, I think that's called "working properly". I have had 0 problems with hate outside of when I play completely recklessly and do nothing but facetank everything. This is exactly what they were trying to remove, and now people are complaining that taking massive damage and getting cured for it loses hate?

For the record, I do think they should adjust certain static-value enmity gains such as from buffs and status removal, etc, but people are talking about cures 1-4 which were reduced by the exact same value as damage, and complaints about something that is untrue from the basic facts of the game will just lead to them adjusting it so that the hate system is shallow again.

It's funny because a lot of people complained about Abyssea being "too easy", where any job can facetank anything as long as a back-up WHM spammed Cure VI over and over.

Now, they chanded it, and people think it sucks. There are a lot of enmity generating actions that were just forgotten because they were useless post-75. People just need to remember how you can really tank.

And by the way, what would you do if you had to fight a party ? Won't you go straight for the healer to stop him for saving the others ? And when fighting a summoner and his pet, won't you agree that the best strategy is shooting the summoner first ?

Theses changes are good because not only do they make monsters act a lot "smarter", but also because it revives one archetype that was totally forgotten: Tanks.

Enmity is just fine now. Smashing stuff up in abyssea or in new zones, WHMs aren't pulling hate. People just have to rmember that now def plays a bigger role. Let's take THF for example, as this job has been tanking all throughout abyssea, yet it was rare to see them tanking before, due to not having any real way of holding hate:

/NIN: Utsusemi gives a decent amount of hate, and with shadows up you're not taking much damage, so not losing hate, however, you need to utilise your natural JAs to help you to get some hate initially, namely Feint, Conspirator (hit as many ppl as possible with it), bully (if you're tanking wait until you have TP to utilise sneak attack too) and finally, no not accomplice. Any THF using Accomplice to hold hate is an idiot. I'm sorry but you are. Use Collaborator FFS.

/DNC: As many steps as you can, for constant flourish spam. Violent flourish is faster than animated, and means you aren't taking damage while it's stunned, but idk how the emnity values vary between it and animated, other than that with 2 FMs, animated gives more enmity. I prefer Violent. Again then keep using your THF JAs as well. Unless your curing waltz III does more than half what your WS do, you're not tanking efficiently by curing yourself.

/WAR: Provoke FFS! I can't believe how many ppl /WAR that forget that they even have this JA. Other than that, if you're tanking, Berserk should only really be used either towards the end of the fight, or for 1 WS then cancel it. Defender if you get adds or need to super tank for a bit, just rmember that the mob you're hitting isn't getting as much enmity from you from damage now, so your mage might pull hate on that 1 mob. Remember Warcry pulls a lot of hate too if you can hit several people in your pt with it.

Gear/Food: Eva gear for THF is just about worth it, especially if /NIN. -PDT tends to be better though. I hate to mention the food as the price of it is rising exponentially already, but Rabbit Pie FTW.

If you can't manage to do all of the above, then disband your PT, go back to your mog house, swap to your full perle BST and use falcor, like I see half of the people in zone doing right now. They seem fairly happy doing it.

Everyone complaining about it - consider what it was like in parties before without a tank and 5 dd, the healers would always have issues with hate. If you ask me the main issue you guys are having is that the mobs are hitting too hard for a Tough mob because, due to abyssea, you guys now think you can go out and easily take out every tough in your path duo. Most will be fine but when it comes to a couple, umbrils and rieve mobs etc, of course they're gonna hit like a brick cause that's what they were designed for. The only issue I have is in salvage, I got defence down from a fomor on floor 1 and was being hit a lot harder than before so had to get rid of it asap. Not sure if this was due to the update or gear choices but considering what they changed and the amount they were hitting for I'd say update.

Overall I really like the new enmity system but of course it's pretty clear there are a few things which they seriously underestimated. These things, sadly, make the whole thing pretty unenjoyable in the circumstances when they do occur.
They mentioned this was meant to be only the "first step" in the enmity adjustements, so I'm sure more tweaks will be coming very soon.

I'm more annoyed by the Att/Def caps change. I can understand its utility but I still wish they could have gone another way. As it stands now for the things I do in-game, I get hit harder by shitty mobs in old content, making things harder and less enjoyable for me.
Hope they will adjust it at least for mobs under level 90.

I like the new enmity and atk/def changes.

First off, we've all been spoiled by Abyssea. Popping every offensive buff (with no drawbacks), eating offensive food, and totally ignoring any sort of defense makes for a stupidly easy game. As a SCH, my cure IV does 1k+ and the recast is only 4 seconds, cure III is 550-600ish (can't remember off the top of my head) with a 3 second recast. When enmity was a non issue, it was virtually impossible to die (due to non-consequential cure spammage), unless 1 shotted or doomed or something equally cheesy. These enmity changes will allow for enemy strategies other than simply 1-shotting us. I'm sure we can all agree that that's a good thing.

If you're in this thread complaining, ask yourself, are you really trying to adapt, or just upset because the game isn't so easy anymore? If enmity is an issue for you, maybe you should evaluate yourself instead of blaming the system first. Get better hybrid, pdt/mdt sets. Change your food choices. Look at your subjob strategy. Pay closer attention to enmity + / - on gear. ENFEEBLE the mobs (they actually matter again). Basically, if you're in a duo, riding berserk / hasso, eating RCB and not doing anything defensively on an unfeebled mob, you deserve to get your face smashed in. Which as people have been trying to say, is the reason your healers are having a hard time with enmity.

On a personal note, I've been a Tank, DD and a healer post update. I've been adapting to the changes, and I haven't seen any of these horrible "one cure III and hate" situations being described by some.

Fermion I agree people are spoiled, refusing to adapt to changes and just being too overwhiny about a change that in the long run will only do good to the game.

But at the same time it's also pretty clear that a couple of things have been underestimated by SE and are not really working as they thought they would have been.
But that's why they said more changes are coming, I guess.
I don't agree with people who are over-reacting and overall I like this new direction, but still we can't deny there are a couple of things which rightfully generate concerns.

Quote:

---

But at the same time it's also pretty clear that a couple of things have been underestimated by SE and are not really working as they thought they would have been.

---

I'm not saying the system is perfect as-is, but I like starting at this baseline much more than what we had before.

The problem I have with the attack/defence update is that it is extremly unbalanced in 2 aspects as I see it.

The first aspect being the 100% increase to damage taken/recived if the attack/defense is double the opponent's. I find anytime you adjust a formula by 100%, it's never good. 25-50% would be idle, increase the challenge to the game without murdering everyone and breaking all the paladin's stones when they can't deal any damage at all now.

Lastly, The unbalance the attack update plays against strength based weapon skill users/attack bonus weapon skill users like asuran fists compared to ANY other stat modifying ws. Example, my pld's cdc has been effected greatly, while drg, sam, war, drk are still hitting for the same damage. lets face it, I have no problem with pld being the weakest dd, but now I'm down there with the whm in damage output harder mobs.

PLD has never ever been a DD and should never be considered a DD. It never did very good dmg and is nowhere near as bad as WHM even now. PLD is exclusively a tank job and always has been. I do agree that adjusting anything by 100% can be very bad though, and I do think SE should have spent more time working out a more complicated formula for hate rather than just adjusting it by a certain degree and "seeing how it goes". I don't think it's as bad as it could have been, it's mainly just people crying cause the games back to hard mode, which I personally find much more rewarding and entertaining.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oddwaffle

At the moment, I'm taking 600-800 damage per hit from the hydra boss in salvage on Monk with Whm taking 300-400 damage per hit and pull hate very often. This doesn't count the fact that the boss can hit multiple times that can instantly kill pretty much anyone not a tank now. The damage taken is too much for 1 Whm to cure without getting massive amount of enmity. We often do salvage with only 3-4 people to keep it easier to get unlocks. I think with a low-man content, 3-4 people is about right.

We normally do it with 2 DD 1 healer or 1 extra thf. We could do it with 1 pld 1 thf 1 healer and 1 DD but that will slow us down a lot. The update seems to restrict people from doing things without a certain kind of party config as well as make content harder than it was.

---

stop useing counterstance and berserk in conjunction, they lower your def tremendously if used together. The defense/attack and enmity update are fine (just some fix to cure V and VI needed). People just need to learn how to properly use their JAs and Abilitys. You see Vokeing at the beginning of a Fight actually is usefull if you dont want your mage to get hate right away with slow/para/dia. Thats what those JAs were designed for. Everything is fine in my eyes, people just need to adjust to it for gods sake, instead of just SMASH SMASH SMASH SMASH while being afk.

and for the record removeing those def. down debuffs a mob gives to you ACTUALLY helps you now and is needed.

Maybe they'll give avatars a voke. :D

You guys really don't understand how attack / defense work do you.

I'll give an example.

Level 99 Monster vs Level 99 Player

Player Defense: 500 (Protect V makes his easily possible)
With Berserk, Defense: 375

Monsters rarely have over ~600 attack, they don't eat meat, they don't get bard buffs and their not using leet end game gear. NM's rarely have over 700~750 attack, Ig-Alima is a LV120 ultra NM and is very rare to encounter that.

Regular Monster ratio = 600/500 = 1.2 (2.0 is cap)
Big NM ratio = 700/500 = 1.4, 750/500 = 1.5

*Poof* "ZOMG DEFENSE ADJUSTMENTS!!!!0101" ratio cap is now 4.0 and is has absolutely ZERO effect on the above damage numbers. None of them go over 2.0.

Now lets use Berserk for -25% defense.

Regular Monster ratio 600/375 = 1.6 <no change>
Big Nm ratio 700/375 = 1.86 <no change> 750/375 = 2.0 <no change>

After the update there still is no change to our zerked DD going hog wild with Protect V on. I mean he's just spamming that WS there and building all sorts of enmity and not taking a dime of extra damage.

Now for what WILL cause you to take more damage. Lets introduce Mr Troll, he's ugly and smells bad. While fighting Mr. Troll he use's Enervation for an aoe -50% defense effect. Lets see what that does to us.

Melee without Zerg = 500 * 0.5 = 250 Defense
Melee with Zerg = 375 * 0.5 = 187 Defense or even 125 (off top of my head can't remember if their additive or multiplicative so gonna do both)

Regular Monster = 600/250 = 2.4 which is now a 20% increase over the 2.0 cap.
Regular Monster vs DD zerked = 600/187 = 3.2 for a 60% increase in damage, or 600/125 = 4.8 (capped 4.0) for a full 100% increase in damage.

Big NM = 700/250 = 2.8 for a 40% increase in damage.
Big NM vs DD zerked = 700/187 = 3.74 for an 87% increase and I don't think I need to go any further for people to see how badly our melee is getting the sh!t smacked out of him.

BTW those -defense moves completely ignore your job class, PLD gets hit just as hard as WAR, MNK, THF, DRK and the rest. The only thing that would save a PLD's a$$ isn't his defense, he can completely ignore that, it's his shield blocks that negate a percentage damage.

In fact -DT sets just because the most important thing in the game, they were required to be a good DD but now their mandatory. Defense is nearly useless, always has and always will be, primarily due to the monsters ability to just take it from you. Flat percentage reductions always are in effect and outside of encumbrance the monsters can't take them away.

I warned SE that this would happen if they went with a 4.0 multiplier. And now we see the results, good luck if your not a WAR / DRK / SAM / BLU / PLD.

Ok just logged in the check my defense on WAR/SAM.

Full DD set puts me at 400 base defense for 575 with Protect(r) V, 431 with Protect V and Berserk up.

That means on anything with less then 862 attack I will receive absolutely no additional from the update.

*Caveat*
This is all non-SOA stuff. I have no idea what stats the monsters inside there have. SE stated their not following normal monster templates so all bets are off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saevel

YPlayer Defense: 500 (Protect V makes his easily possible)

---

Keep in mind that you don't always get Protect V when you're lowmanning or soloing content, especially old lv75 content.
This change wanted to address mainly the end-game part of the game and I'm allright with that, but it ended up playing a difference bigger than intended even in older content, and I'm not really sure this las part is a good thing.

It's pretty ridiculous to get hit by such high damage spikes (especially during TP moves or during certain crits) by lv75 or lower mobs.
Not really sure they really wanted this to happen, I still feel like they just slightly underestimated the consequences of such a huge change, while being focused a bit too much on end-game content.


Anyway, if something is not working as they intended, I'm sure within a couple of months we'll see some tweaks.
Overall I keep my stance of feeling satisfied with this new direction, if anything they showed to be knowing mechanics of this game much better than I gave them credit to, in spite of some silly mistakes/underestimations that they clearly did here and there during this last patch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zhronne

Keep in mind that you don't always get Protect V when you're lowmanning or soloing content, especially old lv75 content.
This change wanted to address mainly the end-game part of the game and I'm allright with that, but it ended up playing a difference bigger than intended even in older content, and I'm not really sure this las part is a good thing.

It's pretty ridiculous to get hit by such high damage spikes (especially during TP moves or during certain crits) by lv75 or lower mobs.
Not really sure they really wanted this to happen, I still feel like they just slightly underestimated the consequences of such a huge change, while being focused a bit too much on end-game content.


Anyway, if something is not working as they intended, I'm sure within a couple of months we'll see some tweaks.
Overall I keep my stance of feeling satisfied with this new direction, if anything they showed to be knowing mechanics of this game much better than I gave them credit to, in spite of some silly mistakes/underestimations that they clearly did here and there during this last patch.

---

This change was directed at DRK/WAR using LR and Berserk together to get enough attack to overcome their pet neo-AV's defense. They didn't take into account the sheer level of -defense moves they equipped all their failed AV attempts with.

Also on "75 content" you should have absolutely zero worried. Level 80-82 mobs rarely have more then 350 attack, 400 tops. And NM's back then didn't have stats much larger then regular mobs, they just wielded bigger swords (base D value). Old content should pose absolutely no problems to anyone.

The damage spikes your seeing are from TP moves with +attack bonus's. As BLU's can tell, many moves have innate attack bonus's and the mobs always get bigger / better versions then we do.

The defense adjustment is overkill pure and simple. They need to reduce the cap to 3.0 or dramatically reduce the effects of -defense ailments. Any formor now has the ability to hit the 4.0 cap on any player due to Aegis Schism's -90% reduction. And they weren't the only ones to get that.

As for Protect V, there are four jobs that have it (WHM, SCH, RDM, PLD), those jobs also happen to be good at keeping you alive. The only time you wouldn't have that is if your out soloing something and honestly I couldn't care less about that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saevel

Also on "75 content" you should have absolutely zero worried. Level 80-82 mobs rarely have more then 350 attack, 400 tops. And NM's back then didn't have stats much larger then regular mobs, they just wielded bigger swords (base D value). Old content should pose absolutely no problems to anyone.

---

Dunno, those 900+ Fluid Toss and 450+ Crits on floor 1 of Apollyon SE kinda made me go WTF.
But I still haven't experienced enough content to point my finger clearly in some direction.

I'm a bit worried about Dynamis on BST, that my pet will take way more damage than it did before, forcing me to get more Pet PDT gear (tbh I hardly had a lot to begin with) or use way more food for Reward.
Still haven't dared to try Dynamis yet, but heard silly things about Statues and DC mobs hitting for ridiculous amounts.

Quote:

---

I couldn't care less about that.

---

I respect that and I would go kinda mad at SE if they dared to put their main focus on solo content, would be a waste of resources.
But at the same time I think the "I couldn't care less" approach is not positive either.
Why not care for both? Not like it would cost them god knows how much time/money to "fix" that.
I guess the next months (and subsequent patches/fixes) will show us where things go.
But personally I do care about this small part of the game and it would make me a bit sad to see it "ruined" for the righteous (not being sarcastic here) greater good of fixing the rest of the game.

Not saying they shouldn't have fixed it at all, it clearly needed a fix. Just saying that *MAYBE* they could have found a way to fix that without ruining that small part of the game that you seem not to care at all about (which is a respectable stance) but at the same time I'm sure other users like me do care for instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saevel

*Poof* "ZOMG DEFENSE ADJUSTMENTS!!!!0101" ratio cap is now 4.0 and is has absolutely ZERO effect on the above damage numbers. None of them go over 2.0.

---

I'm sorry but I don't see any proof for the adjustment you describe. They only said that "attack-to-defense ratio has undergone adjustment".

Nothing on increasing the cap, or simply using (atk/def)², etc..., only that the level of the monster is much more important now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Damane

stop useing counterstance and berserk in conjunction, they lower your def tremendously if used together. The defense/attack and enmity update are fine (just some fix to cure V and VI needed). People just need to learn how to properly use their JAs and Abilitys. You see Vokeing at the beginning of a Fight actually is usefull if you dont want your mage to get hate right away with slow/para/dia. Thats what those JAs were designed for. Everything is fine in my eyes, people just need to adjust to it for gods sake, instead of just SMASH SMASH SMASH SMASH while being afk.

and for the record removeing those def. down debuffs a mob gives to you ACTUALLY helps you now and is needed.

---

Err.. no that is wrong. I still take similar damage without berserk by using counterstance. Unless you really really want SE to remove counterstance and put it with Footwork (rarely used and completely useless).

Also, Provoke wasn't use to grab hate at start of battle for paralyze/slow...etc. I have been playing since 2003 (before xbox) and it was used to keep hate from cures. Also, if you sub /Sam you can't use provoke. Forcing provoke as a requirement reduces flexibility and choices from players, encourages cookie cutters parties and increase alienation of jobs that aren't in the cookie cutter setup (bst, pup and smn was very marginal back then).

A lot of people seems to want to go back to the good-old-days. I remember those days! 6 hours waiting for a 1 Pld to seek so people could make a party. It was horrible. The harder the content becomes the more cookie cutter settings will be used. At the rate it's going. You will need a specific setup for most events. You'll need a Pld and a Whm for core and supports/DD. Without that setup, you'll have to wait or beg or just go fishing. Just like the horrible old days.

The direction will also make 3-man events difficult. There is a reason SE made certain events 3-man. It takes too much time looking for 5 other people. People wanted to log on, spend 15min of preparations and do what they want. If you make it so people have to get enough people for events (Voidwatch, Meebles, NNI) then you're looking at 15m-2hours of doing nothing but waiting for members to join. People with little time to play (less than 3hours a day) are forced into static PT.

If you had been following the forum for the last month, the producer had said along with the emmity increase, they would be adding x 2 more damage increase to players then before, so basiclly everyone will have to relly on true tanks again for content level 51+.

I think they feel realistically that your pet is a one time shot at killing something and should not provide unlimited tanking/solo'ing on mobs above the strength of your pet.

Sorry this happend, but it was comming sooner or later.

Might want to run to the Auction house and stack up on complete VIT gear, there was something about VIT affecting it greatly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oddwaffle

Forcing provoke as a requirement reduces flexibility and choices from players, encourages cookie cutters parties and increase alienation of jobs that aren't in the cookie cutter setup (bst, pup and smn was very marginal back then).

---

If you refuse to use a subjob designed to tank and your main job isn't a tank...well... you can't tank.
I don't see anything wrong here.

And by the way, Provoke always gives the same enmity boost, so it can be used at the beginning AND every 30 seconds after.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zhronne

It's pretty ridiculous to get hit by such high damage spikes (especially during TP moves or during certain crits) by lv75 or lower mobs.

Anyway, if something is not working as they intended, I'm sure within a couple of months we'll see some tweaks.
Overall I keep my stance of feeling satisfied with this new direction, if anything they showed to be knowing mechanics of this game much better than I gave them credit to, in spite of some silly mistakes/underestimations that they clearly did here and there during this last patch.

---

I'm seeing a lot of this. Listen, everyone. If these changes stay in place a few people might still stay but the others who've been going on easy street won't be able to enjoy the game anymore. THis in tern will cause them to LEAVE. Them leaving will make the game go downhill more.

Do you all want the game to be shutdown? That's what'll happen if people decide it's not FUN anymore. If people are forced back into hard mode they can't solo, low man or duo with second accounts. It's like this if people aren't happy they quit paying for the subscription. Any smart person knows these thing.

"If you make a babies milk sour it'll stop sucking the milk. In this case SE is selling the milk."

What I'm saying is the amount of subscribers may start to RAPIDLY drop if things aren't done soon. You can sit back and say "I like the new system it's okay" but, ultimately it may just make other people loath the game enough to stop playing or eventuality quit.

I'm not whining here about how bad the system is. I'm pointing out that people are fickle. When the game is thrown into hard core mode not everyone is going to take it well. It's no longer your ideals of a perfect game that matter to them when they pay to play. Players will either adapt or abandon these worlds beause of the developers choices.

Simply put, If it's not enjoyable they have their own wills to choose whats right for their person. This isn't your choice what they like or don't like and there's nothing you can do about it. This however, will impact you far more then you think if the reaction is to quit. So, Is holding stern to our own needs/wants worth it if our companions all leave for greener pastures?

If my gut feeling is right and it usually is. It's changes like these that can cause a rapid exodus of the subscription base. No, This isn't an "I'm QUITTING" ramble. It's a gut feeling I'm having that a lot of players won't take these changes well. You see, I've not been playing much and these changes don't give me any enthusiasm. After seeing all the negative sentiment I've come a harsh reality that the game is not going to be a happy place. It's my gut feeling it'll continue to collapse.

I'm heartbroken because of this news. I assume others feel the same but they haven't said anything. If others feel the same as me they may be already considering alternative entertainment routes. In this case it doesn't look good, it doesn't sound fun and It makes us think if we should invest our time elsewhere.

Something is very wrong with the changes of a large number of subscribers are upset. I'm on the fence right now waiting to see how well the player base handles the changes. If they don't take it well the amount of subscribers will fall rapidly. We shall see if making things "Hard Mode" keeps players coming back or makes them abandon this realm.

IF a lot of people, A LOT of people, were to leave this game in the end it would be way less enjoyable for all of us, altough they could still do another server merge blahblah, but I concur it's not a good thing to happen.

"IF". Because I get the feeling the great majority of people just claim they're gonna leave when something they don't like happens, but then either they keep playing or they come back shortly after.
So really, what are we talking of?


People (myself included) usually look reluctantly at changes and are unable to tell wether it's a better or worse situation. They just don't want to change the things they've been doing in a certain way, their habits.
It's a natural aspect of human beings.
Time will tell wether:
1) something was really wrong and SE will adjust things here and there
2) people will really keep whining or maybe they will slowly adapt to this new style and find that, maybe, things might be even better than before
3) things will stay like this and people will stop paying and game will die, end of the world, blahblah


Give it time, it's not even been a week yet, let us not make haste to draw up conclusions too fast.

Most of the super casual players won't leave right away since Abyssea apparently is still not dead yet, if ever going to die anytime soon. Between Voidwatch and Meeble (assuming they do it - since it requires a bit more coordination), and all the neo stuffs and dynamos - magian trial weapons, there are still tons of great content for solo-duo-dual boxing. But they will start their exodus soon once they see the game is going to the forced grouping activities and no longer fun log and play. So far SoA is somewhat of a letdown, great little ideas on some things, but bad implementation on the bigger things. The old ways are not great, a lot of you probably won't want to go back to the old ways, as much as many still have rose tinted glass memories of how great it used to be. Yes I agree with the sour milk analogy, you don't do big changes, you do small little changes gradually to ease up the transition. But perhaps it is their plan all along, a certain new game is around the corner, it bears the moniker of FF:ARR - maybe they want to move all the casuals there. It's a bit too early to say SoA is a failure, I am sure they will do tons of little updates within the next month or two. They should realize this by now, all those dual triple quadruple boxers are bringing nice extra income, why mess up success formula. The hardcore are fickle, they consume the content in a very rapid pace then complaint it is too easy. They are better off catering to the casual corners who digest content very slow and too busy chatting and socializing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zhronne

Give it time, it's not even been a week yet, let us not make haste to draw up conclusions too fast.

---

Give it time you say? Game changes are like first impressions do them wrong the first time and people may never look back. The faster they revert they better off they are at recovery. I think they severely broke the game. IMHO, They should to revert so they can reevaluate balance first. Much like the way an army falls back to regroup. I think the developers need to take a step back so they can pull things together before moving forward.

To me everything appears to be all out of whack. The game is totally unplayable for some people/jobs. This is a mass subscription service. Everyone who is serious about this game should reflect on the words in the two sentences below.

People pay for this game because they want to enjoyment out of it. If they can't enjoy it why would they want to pay for it?

Right now I think the only course is to revert so more testing can be done. Every second things are broken one more person who's playing thinks "Why am I paying for this?". If they're even remotely thinking these things it's not good at all. These changes could've avoided all this negative reaction if they where properly tested.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarick

Right now everything appears to be all out of whack. The game is totally unplayable for some people/jobs. People pay because they want to enjoy the game. If they can't enjoy it why would they want to pay? Every second things are broken one more person who's playing thinks "Why am I paying for this?". If they're even remotely thinking these things it's not good at all. These changes could've avoided all this negative reaction if they where properly tested.

---

It amazes me that they still do not understand that it takes a great deal to fix negative feeling than to reinforce positive feeling. Bad experience news spread faster than a good one. And judging from several threads in this forum, SoA is a bit lackluster, yes it is barely a week old, let's not be too harsh. But first impression is everything, and it is a lot tougher to recover from a bad first impression, at least they are listening (it seems like) - and hopefully more swift updates will happen to rectify these out of whack game mechanic. Your gut feeling is probably right though, if they are not reverting back - a lot of people may quit within the next few months, too late to regain them back. Though as we all know, they always come back, most of them do :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Most of the super casual players won't leave right away since Abyssea apparently is still not dead yet, if ever going to die anytime soon.

~they will start their exodus soon once they see the game is going to the forced grouping activities and no longer fun log and play. So far SoA is somewhat of a letdown, great little ideas on some things, but bad implementation on the bigger things. The old ways are not great, a lot of you probably won't want to go back to the old ways, as much as many still have rose tinted glass memories of how great it used to be.

Yes I agree with the sour milk analogy, you don't do big changes, you do small little changes gradually to ease up the transition. But perhaps it is their plan all along, a certain new game is around the corner, it bears the moniker of FF:ARR - maybe they want to move all the casuals there.

It's a bit too early to say SoA is a failure, I am sure they will do tons of little updates within the next month or two. They should realize this by now, all those dual triple quadruple boxers are bringing nice extra income, why mess up success formula. The hardcore are fickle, they consume the content in a very rapid pace then complaint it is too easy. They are better off catering to the casual corners who digest content very slow and too busy chatting and socializing.

---

Forgive me for cutting up editing parts of your quote. I agree with what you're saying and just had to quote you. I couldn't bare the WALL-O-TEXT format you made.

Unfortunately, we won't know until it's too late. Everyone doesn't come here to post "I'm quitting" they just quit. With that in mind it's like a cancer that eats at the body until it becomes terminal and can't be fixed. You won't initially notice the damage until after the symptoms start showing up full force. Once that happens it's to late. This is the severe consequences for our lack of awareness.

Like I said these changes don't make me happy. They've made me step back to evaluate my future. I'm sure others reading this are thinking the same. We can't be fooled by blind faith. Look around. We need to ask others what they think before making the ultimate choices. If the majority doesn't like the direction these changes went then the developers need to adjust them fast. As with cancer if you don't catch it in time it'll kill you in a horrible way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luvbunny

SoA is a bit lackluster, yes it is barely a week old, let's not be too harsh.

---

Bit rich coming from you...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaall

Bit rich coming from you...

---

A bitch quote coming from you...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Himrik

I'm sorry but I don't see any proof for the adjustment you describe. They only said that "attack-to-defense ratio has undergone adjustment".

Nothing on increasing the cap, or simply using (atk/def)², etc..., only that the level of the monster is much more important now.

---

It's explained right here. Note that I'm pretty sure "the player's level is vastly lower than the level of the monster attacking him" is used to describe a scenario in which the monster has a massive amount of Attack more than the player's Defense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Update Notes

The attack-to-defense ratio has undergone adjustment.
When a player's level is vastly lower than the level of the monster attacking him, there will now be times when he will take much more damage than before.

In the event that:
Attacker's DMG: 100
Attacker's attack power: 1000
Defender's DEF: 250

Amount of damage taken pre-adjustment: 200
Amount of damage taken post-adjustment: 400
* Simplified conditions have been used for the sake of explanation.

---

Pre-adjustment: It only did 200 damage because the cap was 2.
Post-adjustment: It now does 400 damage because the cap is 4.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kokorololi

Pre-adjustment: It only did 200 damage because the cap was 2.
Post-adjustment: It now does 400 damage because the cap is 4.

---

I wonder what would happen if they removed those caps entirely? Imho, it would show just how drastically broken the defense system is. Look at it like this if you play other games when an player vs enemy is severely mismatched you it'll show it with the weaker on getting one shotted for 999999 damage. Then again 999999 is still a CAP.

This is how I feel the defense changes have changed the game. They may still be caped but with enmity being broken and the new damage capacity it's suicidal to fight some enemies solo or as a multi-box player.

On a side note: Right now You can harrass someone soloing really bad if they don't use block aid. Simply give them a big cure 4 then and run off. The mob will chase you down as they scramble to get back hate.

How is this fun? Maybe teasing people is more fun then getting teased by the changes. See, I couldn't help myself. J/K

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarick

On a side note: Right now You can harrass someone soloing really bad if they don't use block aid. Simply give them a big cure 4 then and run off. The mob will chase you down as they scramble to get back hate. How is this fun? Maybe teasing people is more fun then getting teased by the changes. See, I couldn't help myself. J/K

---

Yes this happened to me as RDM trying to help a poor BST getting whacked by those nasty Umbril. Just one cure 4 is enough to send the mob to me. And I was not even in the party, just doing a drive by Protect + Shell and Cure 4 to the poor fellow. Hopefully they will fix it today since it is seriously whacked and render the game unplayable for most pet jobs and mages - I am sure melee would welcome a fix to the defense change as well.

What are you planning to solo? Ig-Alima?

For most content pre-existing content, the Attack/Defense changes changed very little. saevel already explained why.

The enmity changes do have an effect on solo/lowman. BST, SMN, DRG, and PUP are the jobs that are effected by solo. All I can say is learn to adapt. Enmity+/- still exists. Provoke and similar abilities are relatively (compared to damage) better than they used to be. Use them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kokorololi

It's explained right here. Note that I'm pretty sure "the player's level is vastly lower than the level of the monster attacking him" is used to describe a scenario in which the monster has a massive amount of Attack more than the player's Defense.

---

No, it's not.
Since a lot of parameters are used in the damage formula, and level difference is one of them, doubling the damage does not equal doubling the cap.

And doubling the cap should work for us too, but it doesn't seem to work that way since no ones clearly saw an increase in our damage output. And in the formula, the level difference ALWAYS benefits the monster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Concerned4FFxi

I'm no game designer, but if I add 100% more of an ingredient to any reciept that somewhat tasty before, I guaruntee it's coming out screwed up.

P.S. Where is this "balance" the DEV speak of? If there were balance, it wouldn't be increasing perimeters by 100%.

---

This depends on the ingredient. If it's sugar it might improve the sweetness its something like salt it could make you puke. I put powdered auger in my chicken spice to make things stick together and have a better flavor to counteract the spices. What i see is SE made a large chocolate + chocolate frosted cake and they mixed up 2 teaspoons of baking powder with 2 tablespoons!

The end result is a delicious looking cake that makes you GAG in agony after the first bite. This actually happened in real life. Even gave away the cake as pranks to unsuspecting douche bags. Looks can be deceiving. The programmers all put stuff on paper in their formulas. These don't always turn out as they wished.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Himrik

No, it's not.
Since a lot of parameters are used in the damage formula, and level difference is one of them, doubling the damage does not equal doubling the cap.

And doubling the cap should work for us too, but it doesn't seem to work that way since no ones clearly saw an increase in our damage output. And in the formula, the level difference ALWAYS benefits the monster.

---

So I suppose they just used those Attack/Defense values for no reason then?

Maybe you're right.
I just looked at the french forum and the level difference is not even mentionned, so maybe the only change is the range of the ratio. A simple case of blurry translation :p

Now, I wonder if the formula is changed only for monsters or for us, too. It would be pretty neat if the damage output skyrocket for those DD with great attack buffs.

By the way, there is another translation problem. The english forum mentions "an enmity reduction by approximately thirty percent" whereas the french one translates an "enmity reduction to 30% of what is was before", so, basically, 70% drop in enmity gain.

Yeah, I was confused about that, too. Based on values I've been seeing people use, I think the reduction is "to 30%". -70% enmity for damage/cures. Which is why we're seeing it have a pretty big effect on pet job solos and lowman. People are taking so much damage relative to the damage they're dealing that their net enmity is generally 0.

I actually like the idea behind the enmity adjustments. Moves us toward needing real tanks and strategy again. (might sux for those spamming low man emp weapons tho.) I just don't think after a couple ws, that a simple cure should be enough to take hate. It needs to be evened out in regards to the other adjustments.