SoA content for ALL 20 jobs...

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we're at a point where every single job must be the exact same or you get some being selected over others

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Are you seriously not seeing the difference between "Make classes identical" and "Make it so that a more popular job isn't doing 50% more DPS than a less popular one"?

You're making a serious straw man argument here. It isn't annoying because it isn't perfect. It's annoying because it truly is horribly balanced.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

A very poor target to use is high level endgame monsters, which are pretty much the only place people care about your damage output enough to bar people? Uh huh. Are you actually going somewhere with that point, or are you just being picky for the sake of being picky? You even yourself point out that it's a flawed system so I'm not even sure what you're trying to say- my exact goal was to prove that it's a flawed system.

If I was to heavily push things in favor of the NIN by giving them 0 buffs aside from white magic haste against a target like a DC Nightmare monster, those same characters would be doing:

Shamash WAR: 234.354 DPS
Kannagi NIN: 307.998 DPS

Hurray, the NIN is winning right? Oh wait, I forgot, I gave the Warrior a mediocre weapon. Let's try giving him a Ukonvasara 99 instead:

Ukon WAR: 303.969 DPS

Well dang, that sure killed that whole "one handers greatly win in low buffs" myth pretty quickly.

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Where the hell did I say that? I only mentioned that 1H can outpace 2H when the target is EM~T. You can stack on multiple buffs and the 1H stays slightly ahead due to how fSTR works when combined with DW. That changes when you approach capped haste though, so toss in a SV march BRD or embrava and the 2H jumps ahead. This is due to the delay floor being 20% and the advantage from DW goes away once you hit that.

High end targets are a bad comparison because right now only three jobs can deal reasonable amounts of damage to them. WAR, DRK and SAM are you only real choices and only with specific setups. If a DRG has a mythic then they can get on that list. Those fights cater specifically to high DPS jobs as we pile on insane amounts of buffs and send them off with infinite fanatics spam or SCH stun locking / PD (if used). Horribly unbalanced content that SE expected us to lose to repeatedly.

The point is to illustrate how your complaining about the damage formula without understanding why it's the way it is. Making demands without understanding that ends up being rather childish (mommy why can't I have a pony for christmas!). Prior to the 2H update the 1H DW peeps were crushing everyone. I was there when WAR's and DRK's would go /NIN and use Axe's. The damage formula heavily favors fast hitting weapons due to the nature of fSTR. The change in the Ratio caps was done to balance out 1H and 2H damage, and it did exactly that. What SE failed to realize was that the players would take it to the extreme and seek to exploit the 12.5% higher cap for 2H's on targets with higher LCF.

2.25 vs 2.0 isn't much of a difference. 1.7 vs 1.45 (level 110 monster) is a bit more and the biggest crotch kicker is 1.2 vs 0.95 (level 120 monster). The solution isn't to rearrange the damage formula which will almost certainly result in an overall nerf to 2H instead of a boost to 1H (remember we weren't supposed to be killing those NM's anyway). It's to stop making level 120 NMs for us to fight.

We should just stop complaining, build Rags and level WAR. Maybe then the devs will nerf it in the hopes that we'll use the "snowflakes".

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Originally Posted by Kincard

Are you seriously not seeing the difference between "Make classes identical" and "Make it so that a more popular job isn't doing 50% more DPS than a less popular one"?

You're making a serious straw man argument here. It isn't annoying because it isn't perfect. It's annoying because it truly is horribly balanced.

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People are demanding that SE create content that "values" all 20 (soon 22) jobs without resorting to "gimmicks" like weakness procs. That is impossible unless all jobs of a given category are functionally equal. I have several examples of events starting with six players and going down to two ~ three players (with a dual box or two). Nothing is stopping you from doing events with slightly larger groups so that you can bring your PUP or RDM along. Of course you won't do it because like those you lambast you too are greedy and want maximum loot. There option is there whether you take it or not.

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The point is to illustrate how your complaining about the damage formula without understanding why it's the way it is.

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Hurr durr:

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Originally Posted by Kincard

1. Ratio handicap on 1Hers

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That includes level correction penalties on ratio. You're just being hostile for no reason. Get over yourself.

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Nothing is stopping you from doing events with slightly larger groups so that you can bring your PUP or RDM along.

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Are you just being dense on purpose? If I need to bring a larger group because a specific job is dead weight then obviously there's a balance problem.

I'm not even sure what your point is. You're basically agreeing that the game is horribly balanced, but you come in here being combative against people you technically agree with because you feel the need to white knight the dev team. Hate to break it to you, but these forums were created for the specific purpose of discussing flaws of the game in the hopes that they can be fixed in some way.

Wow did 5 ppl really post in the time it took for me to write that? grrr i hate when I get stuck at the end of a page...

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That is impossible unless all jobs of a given category are functionally equal.

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No. You don't get it. Jobs don't have to be 100% identical/equal to be valued. We're not asking for perfection, we're asking for reasonable effort in balance. right now the game isn't even close to being within the realm of remotely balanced.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

We should just stop complaining, build Rags and level WAR. Maybe then the devs will nerf it in the hopes that we'll use the "snowflakes".

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Strawman, there are several jobs that are viable. There are only a few that are viable in every situation and these predictably are the specialist jobs. The specialist healer (WHM), the specialist DD's (WAR/DRK/SAM/MNK) and the specialist buffers (BRD). THF gets a special mention as it's the "get moar loot" specialist. Outside of that many jobs will fit in based on different situations, and there is were we have the sticking point. People want to play their chosen job on all content, which is impossible with 20(22) jobs. I tend to use my BLU over 99 Rag WAR in Salvage II as we already have a pure DD (the MNK) and the additional utility of the BLU outweighs the additional damage I would get from being a pure DD. In a similar situation someone soloing or douing something large and dangerous might want to bring that same PUP or BST that was earlier not allowed into the voidwatch shout. Those jobs while having less damage output then the specialist's have pets which can aid in tanking and overall survivability. Same with the previously mentioned Kanagi NIN. A specialist DD may have more damage potential but the NIN will stay alive longer and has better defensive abilities, there are situations where you want those defensive abilities and can afford to sacrifice potential damage output.


Everyone here is taking an incredibly narrow point of view that the only thing that matters is potential damage output. This is only true in a few events, problem being that SE seems to have preferred these events for the last year or so and thus anyone not a DD specialist was left on the side. Prior to that was Abyssea, an event that potential damage output was largely ignored and the only thing that mattered was getting procs for "moar loot". Proc jobs became favored, WAR's were wanted for their diverse skills not their damage output.

In old-style MMOs like this, it'll ultimately still break down to how well your job fills in one of the roles of the holy trinity (Well, I guess a fourth is support so CORs and BRDs get some piece of the pie). That is what needs to be fixed, IMO. The easiest role to fill (and the one you need most of anyway) is DPS. Like I said earlier, you need to look at the utility function (TH, Proccing, etc) as separate entities to core gameplay roles (Tank, DPS, Heal). As long as a job can fill one of these roles very well, it'll basically be acceptable (not best) in any large-scale event. After all, people arn't picky in DRK vs WAR. Nobody takes WARs to Legion so they can Fell Cleave and nobody takes DRKs to Legion so they can dread spikes.

This is why I think equalizing DPS across many classes isn't really a bad thing, because you can still have unique utilities between jobs, but you won't have a situation where you have filled in all your required utility slots and you go, "Well, we need a generic DPS job, now we have to pick one of the three jobs out of 22 that can actually fill that 'generic' role."

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Originally Posted by Kincard

Hurr durr:



That includes level correction penalties on ratio. You're just being hostile for no reason. Get over yourself.



Are you just being dense on purpose? If I need to bring a larger group because a specific job is dead weight then obviously there's a balance problem.

I'm not even sure what your point is. You're basically agreeing that the game is horribly balanced, but you come in here being combative against people you technically agree with because you feel the need to white knight the dev team. Hate to break it to you, but these forums were created for the specific purpose of discussing flaws of the game in the hopes that they can be fixed in some way.

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I broke your argument down (along with others) and now you guys just pissed. Your basically asking SE to "bring PUP's to Legion" which would require that damage output be no longer a factor. At that point it's no longer FFXI and some flash based web FTP MMO. As long as your fighting level 120 NMs then you will be using the highest damage jobs available to you, even if the damage lead is only 10~20%.

My point is to illustrate the incredible childishness that people are demonstrating. You essentially asking for the impossible (make all 22 jobs relevant) then getting angry when that impossibility doesn't happen. It sounds awfully lot like the grade school kid demanding a pony for Christmas

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I broke your argument down (along with others) and now you guys just pissed.

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Misinterpreting an argument and breaking it down are two very different things, unfortunately for you. You still haven't explained in the least why this is "impossible" other than just stating it ad nauseum. If you are going to continue to make thinly veiled ad hominem attacks instead of making actual points like the actual child here, then I think we're done.

(By the way, awesome use of the 'u mad' argument, clearly you are putting your intellect on full display)

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you will be using the highest damage jobs available to you, even if the damage lead is only 10~20%

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If people seriously cared that much they would bar Ukon WARs from Legion and demand to take only Ragnarok WARs instead (~5% difference, decently large).

The only thing making it not possible to play all content with one job is the "terrible imbalance" aspect of the game we've been talking about. We have 20 jobs Saevel, and you listed 6 as being viable for events. 6 out of 20 is absolutely terrible, and it can be done better. All you've done so far is insist that there's no way to balance the game when you yourself don't know that for sure, you just have an incredibly biased opinion. I understand that you're still bitter about RDM, but you're making insulting comments and all we're trying to do is have a discussion. Cut it out. Or better yet, please enlighten us snowflakes as to exactly why it's not possible to balance the game and why I should just shut up and level a meathead DD job.

Saevel's clearly not interested in an actual discussion, he has proved here and elsewhere multiple times that he never bothers completely reading/comprehending a post before he posts in response to it. I suppose it's just as likely he's incapable of doing that, though.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

Misinterpreting an argument and breaking it down are two very different things, unfortunately for you. You still haven't explained in the least why this is "impossible" other than just stating it ad nauseum. If you are going to continue to make thinly veiled ad hominem attacks instead of making actual points like the actual child here, then I think we're done.

(By the way, awesome use of the 'u mad' argument, clearly you are putting your intellect on full display)



If people seriously cared that much they would bar Ukon WARs from Legion and demand to take only Ragnarok WARs instead (~5% difference, decently large).

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Demonstrates you don't know much about Legion. The difference between them is much greater then 5% due to Legion NMs have critical defense bonus that nerfs Ukon. Legion is about throwing as many Rag's against the targets as possible while having three SCH/BLM's cycle stun to prevent it from acting.

I've stated it several times that balancing is impossible as each job would have to be identical to the others. Otherwise you get winners and losers based on who has access to what exploitable combo. Raise NIN's damge to 90% of a Rag WAR's damage and suddenly you have a DD who not only has high DPS but also increased survivability, why bring a Rag WAR when a Kanagi NIN (theoretically) would do 90% the damage while taking less damage overall. Won't change anything like Legion as damage intake isn't a concern but on anything else it would make Ninja broken.

Thus you haven't changed the primary complaint (not bringing NIN / PUP's to Legion) while breaking both jobs in everything else. On top of that a system wide change to make 1H on the same level as 2H vs level 120 NM's would then make 1H crushingly overpowered on anything 100~105.

See not as easy as you thought, law of unintended consequences being what it is. There was a time when 1H and 2H damage used the exact same damage formula and 1H pretty much won every time. Apoc's higher haste cap (prior to haste gear being so easy to cap) being one of the few exceptions to that rule. Now the true culprit to all this is LCF's static penalty to your damage, it becomes obscenely noticeable at higher levels. Changing that would fundamentally alter the balance across the entire game and I would bet that it would be for the worse not the better.

Ultimately asking for all jobs to be relevant to all content is silly and childish. Most MMO's struggle with four to six class combos and your asking SE's developers to balance out twenty two. Mind as well expect world peace first.

Now what you guys should be asking for, and I was hoping the light bulb would eventually go on (my expectations are too high I know), is that SE implement a wide variety of content that doesn't penalize slightly larger group setups. Salvage 2 was a decent start, it doesn't require a super specific setup though you want (WHM + THF + Pure DD) as a minimum. The unlock system kinda favors smaller groups for the first two floors and the loot system definitely favors smaller groups, but otherwise the event is pretty non-discriminatory. Of course this goes back to what I said earlier, any event that could be cleared by a relaxed 5~6 player group can be cleared by a min/maxed three player group. If they implement 120 super NM's then it'll be Rag WAR spammage, if they implement meebles / salvage II type content then it'll be groups of three to four players doing it.

Not much room outside of that, welcome to modern MMO's so glad you could join us after ten years.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

The only thing making it not possible to play all content with one job is the "terrible imbalance" aspect of the game we've been talking about. We have 20 jobs Saevel, and you listed 6 as being viable for events. 6 out of 20 is absolutely terrible, and it can be done better. All you've done so far is insist that there's no way to balance the game when you yourself don't know that for sure, you just have an incredibly biased opinion. I understand that you're still bitter about RDM, but you're making insulting comments and all we're trying to do is have a discussion. Cut it out. Or better yet, please enlighten us snowflakes as to exactly why it's not possible to balance the game and why I should just shut up and level a meathead DD job.

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I'm being honest and frank with all of you. You've put blinders on and refused to acknowledge that there really is only a few ways to go about doing anything without getting "gimmicky". In all honestly you can really only have five to six jobs in any game before you run into balance issues. You have "Healer Specialist", "DD Specialist", "Tank Specialist" and then room for one or two Hybrids, you could also tack in "Magic DD Specialist" if the game's engine allows for that. That is why in FFXI you see the exact same specialist jobs over and over again. It's not some great developmental failure on SE's part as every MMO ever made has to deal with this.

There are only so many ways to "kill stuff, get loot".

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Demonstrates you don't know much about Legion. The difference between them is much greater then 5% due to Legion NMs have critical defense bonus that nerfs Ukon.

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I'm perfectly aware of the crit penalty, thanks. There have been numerous parses and I have read several parses that had Ukon WARs parsing about 5% behind Rag WARs. It's a large amount to be sure, but most leaders simply don't care about the little things as long as the run goes well. If you play to win as much as you can, good for you, that's not what the discussion is about.

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Legion is about throwing as many Rag's against the targets as possible

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Once again, missing the point. Rag does better but no LS leader is going to tell someone they can't come on WAR because they have an Ukon instead of a Rag. After a certain point people just don't care as much about he differences in DPS as long as they can win the event decently reliably.

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Raise NIN's damge to 90% of a Rag WAR's damage and suddenly you have a DD who not only has high DPS but also increased survivability, why bring a Rag WAR when a Kanagi NIN (theoretically) would do 90% the damage while taking less damage overall. Won't change anything like Legion as damage intake isn't a concern but on anything else it would make Ninja broken.

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You are contradicting yourself. On the one hand, you are saying that you should maximize your DPS as much as possible by taking as many Rags as possible, then you are saying that raising another job that trades DPS for some survivability (Really not that much anyway since most of the stuff in Legion has tons of AoEs and Migawari has a long cast/recast) is preferable. Isn't that what class balance is? I trade some offense for defense. Yes, there would be intricacies in the game mechanics to be ironed out, but you're proposing that they just lazily leave the system in its flawed state. That's just...what?

If it "doesn't matter" in your view, how does that make it broken?

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On top of that a system wide change to make 1H on the same level as 2H vs level 120 NM's would then make 1H crushingly overpowered on anything 100~105.

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Because they couldn't possible change the game in a way so that one-handers arn't as heavily punished on really high level monsters but only slightly change the way mid-level monsters are handled?

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Ultimately asking for all jobs to be relevant to all content is silly and childish.

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Once again you have missed the point. Nobody is saying all 20 jobs have to be the best at everything in every event. We're simply asking that all 20 jobs can fill some kind of role in all events, even if it's not ideal, without basically being dead weight. There's something called a middle ground, and there isn't one. That is what needs to be fixed. How you continuously miss this point when it's been stated in almost every response to you is baffling indeed.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

I'm perfectly aware of the crit penalty, thanks. There have been numerous parses and I have read several parses that had Ukon WARs parsing about 5% behind Rag WARs. It's a large amount to be sure, but most leaders simply don't care about the little things as long as the run goes well. If you play to win as much as you can, good for you, that's not what the discussion is about.



Once again, missing the point. Rag does better but no LS leader is going to tell someone they can't come on WAR because they have an Ukon instead of a Rag. After a certain point people just don't care as much about he differences in DPS as long as they can win the event decently reliably.



You are contradicting yourself. On the one hand, you are saying that you should maximize your DPS as much as possible by taking as many Rags as possible, then you are saying that raising another job that trades DPS for some survivability (Really not that much anyway since most of the stuff in Legion has tons of AoEs and Migawari has a long cast/recast) is preferable. Isn't that what class balance is? I trade some offense for defense. Yes, there would be intricacies in the game mechanics to be ironed out, but you're proposing that they just lazily leave the system in its flawed state. That's just...what?

If it "doesn't matter" in your view, how does that make it broken?

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Your evading the issue about Legion, it's a whole helluva lot higher then 5%. Mathed out it's more like 15% or more. Also you've entered into the mode where you refuse to see the other persons point because it'll directly conflict with your own, so this conversation can't go any further. I used Ninja as a perfect example, "fixing" it's damage to be 90% of a "Pure DD" doesn't alleviate your primary concern (taking your NIN or PUP into Mul and killing third wave) while unbalancing everything that's not fighting level 120 NMs.

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Because they couldn't possible change the game in a way so that one-handers arn't as heavily punished on really high level monsters but only slightly change the way mid-level monsters are handled?

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Your refusing to see the game outside of "Damage ONRY!!!! MAKE MY NIN HIT HARDERER!!!", there are various types of events and low man events places more focus on survivability then damage. Enhancing a single aspect of a job without taking into consideration other aspects is how you get a broken game to begin with.

But lets go deeper into this rabbit hole. There was once a time when LCF didn't exist, at least for one particular type of damage. Ranged attacks used to hit IT the exact same as EM and the result was RNG spam for everything. RNG was the bandwagon job of choice, until SE nerfed it into the ground. What you just asked for was altering LCF which is one of the foundations of the games current balance. The only difference between a level 99, 110 and 120 monster is the amount of LCF it receives. Basically your now asking for SE to alter LCF to favor 1H at higher numbers which would result in a trickle down effect of making everything stupid easy. Legion would suddenly become a joke as would most content, this would result in SE nerfing it and we'd be in a worse situation then currently. Everyone's damage would suck equally not just 1h's.

Have you actually attempted to run math and see what could be changed or are you, like most others, just poping your mouth off and asking for more ponys? I know I have and the results are no matter what you do, 2H always stays ahead of 1H and by a far enough margin to be significant for strategy. You make it insignificant and things become stupid easy to the point of abyssea levels. The only way to arrive at a happy medium is to simply not include stupid level 120 NMs and then to lighten the LCF above 5 to 0.03 such that a monster 11 levels above would have 0.43 penalty instead of 0.55, it's not much but it evens things out a bit. This change would make Legion, PW and anything 110~120 easy though.

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Once again you have missed the point. Nobody is saying all 20 jobs have to be the best at everything in every event. We're simply asking that all 20 jobs can fill some kind of role in all events, even if it's not ideal, without basically being dead weight. There's something called a middle ground, and there isn't one. That is what needs to be fixed. How you continuously miss this point when it's been stated in almost every response to you is baffling indeed.

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No such thing as a "middle ground" in a MMO. That's like saying there is "middle ground" for a WS or TP gear item, it's either best in slot or it's not. A job is either the best for it's slot or it's not, period. Voidwatch is the place where "everyone can be useful" as procs matter, otherwise your either the best choice or not (out of whats available).

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Quote Originally Posted by Calatilla View Post
No it isnt

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Originally Posted by Keyln

Yes it is.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

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Your evading the issue about Legion, it's a whole helluva lot higher then 5%. Mathed out it's more like 15% or more.

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When you math out Kogarasumaru it supposedly crushes all sorts of competition but in application players that have parsed their mythics have found that to be false. The number crunching will only take you so far, especially since you're in turtling gear half the time in Legion and that screws up a bunch of calculations anyway. Parses have shown Ukon WARs parsing within 5% of Rag WARs. Call them crappy players or whatever you want, that doesn't make it less valid.

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Also you've entered into the mode where you refuse to see the other persons point because it'll directly conflict with your own, so this conversation can't go any further.

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I don't think I need to point out how hypocritical this statement is when you've been unbudging on your stance without a single time even suggesting you're comprehending any of the posts you are reading.

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there are various types of events and low man events places more focus on survivability then damage

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If we're just going to focus on one job specifically, outside of Migawari blocking very specific types of attacks there is almost nothing a NIN can tank that a WAR can't at this point in the game. You don't seem to realize that WAR is a very powerful job even if you played it defensively because of retaliation.

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Have you actually attempted to run math and see what could be changed or are you, like most others, just poping your mouth off and asking for more ponys? I know I have and the results are no matter what you do

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I wasn't aware that you were privy to the game's source code and could eliminate every possibility of ways they could alter the game so that greater job balance could be achieved. It doesn't matter if the changes cannot fit into the game's current formulas/framework. They have altered formulas in the past. If it is unfeasible, then let them be the judge of that, they don't need you to speak for them. You're just being an alarmist and suggesting that any attempt at balancing would result in a catastrophe in the game's balance.

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No such thing as a "middle ground" in a MMO. That's like saying there is "middle ground" for a WS or TP gear item, it's either best in slot or it's not.

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I thought there was a limit on how much someone could miss the point. The "middle ground" is where I can take someone on a job that isn't ideal to an event without crippling the run, similar to how I can take a Ukon WAR instead of a Rag WAR to Legion without ruining the run. How are you having this much trouble comprehending this concept? Even taking your ridiculous claim of 15% advantage to Rag, that's still a lot less than the 30%+ advantage WARs and DRKs have over other jobs like DRG, NIN, THF, BLU or MNK.

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Originally Posted by saevel

I'm being honest and frank with all of you. You've put blinders on and refused to acknowledge that there really is only a few ways to go about doing anything without getting "gimmicky". In all honestly you can really only have five to six jobs in any game before you run into balance issues. You have "Healer Specialist", "DD Specialist", "Tank Specialist" and then room for one or two Hybrids, you could also tack in "Magic DD Specialist" if the game's engine allows for that. That is why in FFXI you see the exact same specialist jobs over and over again. It's not some great developmental failure on SE's part as every MMO ever made has to deal with this.

There are only so many ways to "kill stuff, get loot".

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Repeating "It's not going to work, balance is unpossible, just trust me on this" over and over isn't proving your point. Also, the imbalance here is a developmental failure on SE's part for deciding to create oodles of content focusing on doing as much damage as possible in a short time and then loading down a few jobs with abilities and weapon proficiencies/skills that do huge damage, while at the same time decreeing that all others shall suck it.

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My point is to illustrate the incredible childishness that people are demonstrating. You essentially asking for the impossible (make all 22 jobs relevant) then getting angry when that impossibility doesn't happen

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Making every job relevant to a majority of content (not necessarily all) is not impossible. Nobody here is looking for perfection- only improvements.

Also, +1 to above post.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You're missing the point. All jobs should be valued in a balanced manner. there shouldn't even BE "mainstream" and non-mainstream jobs. That person who wants to do voidwatch in PUP should be able to particpate in it and do a perfectly fine job- not because someone feels sorry and wants to invite someone who isn't "mainstream," but because they are actually effective enough to contribute. The whole point of this thread is that all jobs should be wanted- not just have 5 that are "mainstream" and the rest used only as filler.

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Nobody stops you from inviting a PUP to VW, and it is effective enough on things like T3. BUT if you put a PUP v.s another WAR or DRK, WAR or DRK probably gonna parse higher.

And unless they make PUP and WAR DRK have identical DPS(which isn't possbile), the one parse highest will get invite. The reason why X job doesn't get invite over Y job, is mostly because using Y job makes the mob die a bit faster. That's why job balance will never be adjusted, there's always someone stay at the top, someone falls behind. Some jobs don't get invited, is the result of min-maxing and human nature(you want more efficent event) to begin with.

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Nobody stops you from inviting a PUP to VW, and it is effective enough on things like T3. BUT if you put a PUP v.s another WAR or DRK, WAR or DRK probably gonna parse higher.

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That's not in dispute, but people shouldn't refuse to invite them and regard them as trash just because someone else can parse better numbers. If you can beat the NM and get the job done and it doesn't have a drastic impact on the time it takes then there isn't any reason not to let a ready and able competent player skilled in his job play.

Parses can suck a *$&%. In the end, voidwatch is *somewhat* friendly to letting all jobs play because the more people that participate the more loot is generated (unlike most content where people play with as few people as possible because they don't want to have to share the loot)- which is Voidwatch's one saving grace for me personally.

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That's why job balance will never be adjusted, there's always someone stay at the top, someone falls behind.

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This is only partially true. Yes, there will always be a best and worst. The key to good balance is to minimize the difference without simultaneously taking away from what makes each one unique. You can balance jobs to the point where the difference isn't enough for most people to notice, then you can invite any of those jobs, because as long as theyre playing their job correctly, it won't matter much which one you choose, they will all be capable of contributing.

A lot of people don't seem to understand what is being asked for isn't for jobs to have identical damage, and say that's impossible. Uh, yeah, we know that. Look at almost any other MMO on the market with proper balance, they usually have tons of different classes for Tank/DPS/Heal as well, but in the ones that are well balanced if your only goal is to get someone to fill a generic role, it won't matter which one of the classes you get because the differences are small. This is why the people that seem to insist that it's somehow impossible to balance classes in terms of damage are either lacking in imagination or intelligence.

If, on the other hand, you are looking for a specific ability, you would look for one class in particular.

This is how XI's class balance should be considered. If I want a DPS class in general, it shouldn't matter if I want a WAR, DRK, SAM, PUP, DRG or THF. If on, the other hand, I want to debuff the monster's AGI to increase the party's crit rate, I would get a DRK. If I want someone who can debuff dragons, I'd get a DRG, or I'd get a WAR if I expect to run into many crowds of monsters that can be easily group-tanked. This isn't that hard of a concept to grasp. Jobs do not lose all unique function just because things can deal the close to the same amount of damage as them.

Yes, there will always be people who will want the absolute best DPS in any situation. That has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation, because the problem isn't that these jobs arn't the best, it's that they don't even function tolerably as these roles at all.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

That's not in dispute, but people shouldn't refuse to invite them and regard them as trash just because someone else can parse better numbers. If you can beat the NM and get the job done and it doesn't have a drastic impact on the time it takes then there isn't any reason not to let a ready and able competent player skilled in his job play.

Parses can suck a *$&%. In the end, voidwatch is *somewhat* friendly to letting all jobs play because the more people that participate the more loot is generated (unlike most content where people play with as few people as possible because they don't want to have to share the loot)- which is Voidwatch's one saving grace for me personally.

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Since you don't care about the minor difference in killing speed, why don't you invite a PUP already? PUP is completely capable of getting VW done just fine. The only difference is killing speed, which you don't care. So what's so need fix about job balance when you don't care about the kill speed already?

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Originally Posted by Afania

Since you don't care about the minor difference in killing speed, why don't you invite a PUP already? PUP is completely capable of getting VW done just fine. The only difference is killing speed, which you don't care. So what's so need fix about job balance when you don't care about the kill speed already?

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He already said that wasn't the point. Hurr durr.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

That's not in dispute, but people shouldn't refuse to invite them and regard them as trash just because someone else can parse better numbers. If you can beat the NM and get the job done and it doesn't have a drastic impact on the time it takes then there isn't any reason not to let a ready and able competent player skilled in his job play.

Parses can suck a *$&%. In the end, voidwatch is *somewhat* friendly to letting all jobs play because the more people that participate the more loot is generated (unlike most content where people play with as few people as possible because they don't want to have to share the loot)- which is Voidwatch's one saving grace for me personally.

This is only partially true. Yes, there will always be a best and worst. The key to good balance is to minimize the difference without simultaneously taking away from what makes each one unique. You can balance jobs to the point where the difference isn't enough for most people to notice, then you can invite any of those jobs, because as long as theyre playing their job correctly, it won't matter much which one you choose, they will all be capable of contributing.

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Just to add on to this it also wouldn't hurt if these "proc" systems they've become so fond of were more inclusive, instead of exclusive. Jobs like RDM, who have nothing unique to them to proc with, and THFs who can't compete with the mainstream jobs have a hard time earning place in a Voidwatchter alliance because of this.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

SoA content for ALL 20 jobs...

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So, which 2 are you excluding? o.0


As for inviting jobs for VW, I'm more than happy to invite anyone on any job whether they have a r/m/e or not, as long as there's a nice even spread of jobs to cover most procs.

9 times out of 10, the proc party gets all the magic procs required to cap red and keep the fanatics flowing, but 1/10 this doesn't happen, and this is when the 'average' player is generally better than the e-peen 99 r/m/e war/drk/sam. The reason being, the average player sees 'H2H 5' in his chat log and switches to H2H (if on a job that wasn't mnk or pup) and shouts out the procs he/she can do and has done.

Mr E-peen on the other hand is spamming tachi: shoha/resolution/ukko's fury and doesn't even realise that red is only on 150. Eventually realising something is wrong, they start shouting 'no more temps, I need cures!' until either they die, or the mob dies. I've seen this more times than I care to remember, and after the fight the reason is usually "I can't see what procs are because I have no filters on so that I can parse".

If only the parse had a menu for who was the biggest idiot in that fight :)

So yeah, I'm not saying everyone with a pimped out DD job is like that, but certainly the people with less-well geared jobs tend to proc more so that they feel like they're doing something. I even started asking ukon wars if they have all their other weapons available to proc, should we need it, and I'll kick them if they don't own an axe.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

So, which 2 are you excluding? o.0


As for inviting jobs for VW, I'm more than happy to invite anyone on any job whether they have a r/m/e or not, as long as there's a nice even spread of jobs to cover most procs.

9 times out of 10, the proc party gets all the magic procs required to cap red and keep the fanatics flowing, but 1/10 this doesn't happen, and this is when the 'average' player is generally better than the e-peen 99 r/m/e war/drk/sam. The reason being, the average player sees 'H2H 5' in his chat log and switches to H2H (if on a job that wasn't mnk or pup) and shouts out the procs he/she can do and has done.

Mr E-peen on the other hand is spamming tachi: shoha/resolution/ukko's fury and doesn't even realise that red is only on 150. Eventually realising something is wrong, they start shouting 'no more temps, I need cures!' until either they die, or the mob dies. I've seen this more times than I care to remember, and after the fight the reason is usually "I can't see what procs are because I have no filters on so that I can parse".

If only the parse had a menu for who was the biggest idiot in that fight :)

So yeah, I'm not saying everyone with a pimped out DD job is like that, but certainly the people with less-well geared jobs tend to proc more so that they feel like they're doing something. I even started asking ukon wars if they have all their other weapons available to proc, should we need it, and I'll kick them if they don't own an axe.

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It seems that you're biased toward parsing, and I can't help but to clarify a couple of points a bit. Although not sure if this is legit discussion on official forum(I don't use 3rd pt tool myself, but many ppl I know that does use it so I guess I know a little bit about it)

1. Proc> dealing dmg?
Yes and no. Generally all VW, including higher tier one, should be dead in less than 2 min. If the fight last longer than 3 min, that's usually the main reason why VW pt wipe or ppl die.

I'm not saying proc isn't important, it is. But generally you only need 1~2 HQ/EV to cap red. If you need more than 1~2 proc, then your pt is killing too slow, and shouldn't sacrifice dmg for proc. Thus you shouldn't proc if you see mob HP at 5% and fana still have 30 sec left, and shouldn't sacrifice output to do NQ proc. The longer you kill a mob, the more proc you need, thus ideally you should lower the proc you need by killing faster.

The only VW that may have proc problem is T3, since they often die too fast, especially Akvan thanks to magic barrier if you didn't try to stun it. Everything else it's hard to imagine sacrifice dmg for proc is a good idea considering majority of PUG still takes longer than 3 min to kill T6+ prov NM.

Also, it is completely correct that lesser geared DDs focus on proc while strongest DD keep dealing dmg. If you ask stronger/better geared DD to work on proc or even NQ proc, you're just prolonging the fight for no reason.

2. If you parse you can't see /p chat?
You should be able to, but again it's not something we should talk about on official forum XD Just go watch other ppl's youtube video and you'll see.


3. "If only the parse had a menu for who was the biggest idiot in that fight"

If you really parse, and if you really study parse result carefully, you can see who is the idiot, and vice versa: How do you know if a player is performing properly if you don't parse and have filter on?

Parse shows all the WS they do, the items they use, the acc they have, the magic they cast, so if your WAR only do 4 WS entire fight everyone else do 15, you know your WAR is slacking. If you see your WAR have 50% acc when everyone else at 95%, you know your WAR isn't skilled(thus unable to proc well too) If you see your WAR only uses Ukko and not procing, or only do all proc but not using any dmg WS, then you know you shouldn't invite him(a good WAR knows when to proc, when not to proc, instead of just DD and don't proc, nor just do proc and don't DD)

It is exactly the opposite, parse gives more clear info regarding your pt member's performance compare with eyeball.

#1. I don't parse. I see no benefit from it, especially since I'm usually BLM or BRD in VW anyway.

#2 if you re-read what I posted above, you'll see that I was saying 90% of the time, the procs flow, and so does the damage, and the fight is easy.

HOWEVER: on occasion, you see shit like EV axe ws, Automation 3, pet ability 3, ice avatar 3, nin dark 3 (on a mob immune to dark enfeebs >.>). In this situation you'll have to agree, that you need that EV axe proc, and no amount of ukko's furys is going to help to cap red if you don't get it. (I'm assuming no smn bst or pup in the group, of course)

I think the reason why the system isn't as balanced as people would like is that it's doing exactly what it was intended to. This isn't like WoW where once you picked a job that character is stuck on it forever and you have to reroll, necessitating some kind of "balance" between the matching class roles. If PUP is bad for legion, don't go PUP, seems to be the dev mentality.

The natural response to this is, "well WAR is useful for everything", or "but PUP isn't ever wanted." I think the problem with this statement is people tend to filter out everything that isn't endgame events, and I don't think the dev team thinks this way. PUPs and BSTs can solo things, DNC has great utility in lowman, I wouldn't want to bring WAR to a duo dynamis, some people may and that's perfectly fine, but to me that just sounds like a pain.

Since they haven't done anything to balance their jobs for the last 8 years, I'm pretty confident that their opinion is if you think the job you are playing is not useful, level a new job or do something else.

Endgame events are generally done with a larger scale of people, so it makes far more sense to use "extremes" and balance out the setup by assigning different roles, then to use lukewarm jobs and potentially have 1 or more areas lacking at the end of the day.

That would be fine but storage limitations mean that you are going to be limited on how many jobs you can gear up to VW level.

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Since they haven't done anything to balance their jobs for the last 8 years, I'm pretty confident that their opinion is if you think the job you are playing is not useful, level a new job or do something else.

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Its less that they haven't (they have) and more that what they've done hasn't been especially effective in most cases.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

#1. I don't parse. I see no benefit from it, especially since I'm usually BLM or BRD in VW anyway.

#2 if you re-read what I posted above, you'll see that I was saying 90% of the time, the procs flow, and so does the damage, and the fight is easy.

HOWEVER: on occasion, you see shit like EV axe ws, Automation 3, pet ability 3, ice avatar 3, nin dark 3 (on a mob immune to dark enfeebs >.>). In this situation you'll have to agree, that you need that EV axe proc, and no amount of ukko's furys is going to help to cap red if you don't get it. (I'm assuming no smn bst or pup in the group, of course)

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And if you read what I said above, I disagree with your opinion regarding parsing and was saying that parse does help pt lead organize the run and estimate pt capability. You playing BRD or BLM is irrelevant, it's not about who wins and deal most %, but it's about being able to tell who is doing the job properly. I'm not against proc at all, you don't need to repeat that and tell me how important procs are.



It has nothing to do with jobs you play, and if you're not pt lead you probably won't get benefit from it. But for someone who makes /shout pt often, and often makes higher tier /shout pt, parse helps a lot. There are a lot of ppl I know that often complained that they joined prov /shout pt and wiped or takes hours to finish BCx3+dragon run, and when they joined mine(I don't invite more than 3 ppl who don't do very well, and always ensure there's enough output to deal 350k dmg in 1.5~3 min), they often praise how fast and smooth the runs are. Most players would rather join a pt that can end every KI BC in 2~3 min(although a bit harder to end 1 BC in 2~3 min now that buff lock is nerfed) and dragon zerg in 1.5 min, not spending 1+ hr for 3 BC+dragon.

There are still a lot of /shout pt that wiped in prov, or takes hours to get it done, or wipe to B.rex with weakening item, mainly because pt lead have no ability to identify who is doing the job properly who isn't. It's the same thing as running a company, if you hire ppl that don't do the job right, your company won't work very well. Do you hire just anyone in your company? Of course not, you hire ppl that fits the position and get the job done well.

And there's just no way I can tell who is good who isn't if I don't collect parse data. Pt lead knowing pt capability, and knows how much dmg the ally can do in 2~3 min, is the key to have a fast and smooth run in higher tier, probably irrelevant in T3 I agree, but T6+prov? I'm just gonna disagree with you.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

In FFT players tend to use the most efficient combination of abilities and then make like 8 copies of those across multiple characters so the actual jobs of those characters only dictate what the unit looks like, in the end the damage is the same. The problem in that game and this one is that there are some abilities that shit all over the other ones, so why would anyone waste their time with anything but the best possible combo? Why would you waste your time with the Summoner when you can invest in the Oracle or Samurai's ridiculously potent abilities?

The real issue here is that the game is hopelessly unbalanced and has been for a very long time. Adding new trinkets and novelty junk on top of already broken stuff isn't the answer either, it just creates a bigger mess. The fact that Embrava and PD were ever even considered to be added in the first place is amazing, but that was also after Doom auras, which are equally wtf. Why you would even add things like that to a game where you're forced to basically do nothing as "punishment" for death is beyond my comprehension. Add super weapons to this equation, which aren't actually needed but make the process of standing there and sighing heavily while your Elf beats on yet another reskinned NM named after a Mesopotamian demon that eats babies slightly faster, and the mess grows ever larger.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

3 months for an average player to make a relic? If I do Dynamis every single day sure- you might say 2 hours a day isn't very much, but that's only if you assume I do nothing but play Dynamis every single day. If you add in other events (If someone is only doing Dynamis then they have no real reason to require a relic to begin with- you don't need a relic to farm Dynamis), that's a playtime of well over 2 hours a day. Unless I'm on vacation I doubt the average person has the time (or the patience) to relic up a job they don't even like just so they can play a certain event.

Aside from that, I should be able to play a job I simply enjoy playing in any endgame without severely crippling my group. Whenever I make groups with my friends, I do everything I can to let people come on jobs they enjoy playing even if it results in slightly worse results, because at the end of the day, we're playing to have fun. You shouldn't do something dumb like making a party of 6 THFs and go whack on something with massive AoE damage but you shouldn't be severely punished for taking a DRG or PUP instead of a WAR to Legion, either.

They can't make every job's DPS identical, no, but they should make classes that fill that role have their differences reduced to insignificance. Even the craziest min-maxer playing the game isn't obsessing over whether they should take a DRK or a WAR because the difference is simply negligible in the grand scheme of things. The problem isn't that there is a gap between DPS jobs, but rather that the gap is so large that it would severely cripple your run if you took anything but the 2 or 3 jobs that regularly top the DPS charts (generally SAM, WAR, DRK). Other games generally do not run into this issue because when their devs say balance, they obviously know what the word actually means.

Like, WAR and DRK both get really high DPS numbers but obviously there are cases where one will beat the other. There are very few, if any, cases where you'll see someone looking for a DPS and then tell a DRK he needs to have WAR leveled to participate (Aside from procs which are tailored to make you bring a variety of jobs anyway). The same isn't true if I want to DPS on DNC, THF, NIN, DRG etc. A THF dual wielding a Mandau and Twashtar 99 geared in Hexed-1 and perfect gear shouldn't be being out-DPSed by a WAR wielding a Laceratrice or Dies Irae using AF3+2 and AH gear.

You could argue that those listed jobs have utility to make up for it, but that would be ignoring the "utility" the top DPS jobs bring too- WARs can swap between multiple weapon classes quite easily and are very effective at dealing area melee damage, DRKs provide absorb spells and have several unique spells of their own.

tl;dr, the philosophy should be "balance DPS, then add unique utility to every job" instead of "make utility take the place of having higher DPS".

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Repeating "It's not going to work, balance is unpossible, just trust me on this" over and over isn't proving your point. Also, the imbalance here is a developmental failure on SE's part for deciding to create oodles of content focusing on doing as much damage as possible in a short time and then loading down a few jobs with abilities and weapon proficiencies/skills that do huge damage, while at the same time decreeing that all others shall suck it.

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Well summed up and explained.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

We're not asking for perfection, we're asking for reasonable effort in balance. right now the game isn't even close to being within the realm of remotely balanced.

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And Tanaka was complained about for his brand of balance... now people are starting to miss it?

I highly doubt anyone is asking for more content with .1~.5% drop rates on high level NMs which require 6~18 people. Also doubt anyone is asking for NMs that nearly 1shot you with any attack, or give out 5 status ailments in 1 TP, have AoE 5-count doom+weakness, or anything else of the sort. So far as I know, that was part of his balance, and something no one I know, is asking to see again.

As many have said before, most, or all, of the content we have right now and have gotten recently has been influenced by Tanaka, so really its the same kinda balance we are talking about now that people hate. Zerg content is 90% of what we have at the moment, really all of it is, some things like Meebles are not always zerg, some are objectives, but many objectives are just zergs as well, kill all of this, kill these certain things, still zergs, just wrapped in an objective to make it look different.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

As many have said before, most, or all, of the content we have right now and have gotten recently has been influenced by Tanaka.

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I agree with you except for that sentence. He was just a puppethead for FFXI for the past year. It has been reveiled in many interviews that he claimed he let the dev staff "do their stuff" on both 11 and 14 while he was barely handling both due to illness and work overload.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Before the Developers even think of announcing the starting content for Seekers of Adoulin, I'd like to know whether or not they have acted positively in creating content and events that are proof against the exclusion of nearly 3/4 of the jobs in the game by "professional" forum sites and the sheep who parrot their talking points. This was the only aspect of Abyssea that rubbed me the wrong way and is what keeps me from even thinking about Voidwatch (anyone saying they haven't seen "R/M/E DD only" shouts is an unbelievably bad liar).

I want to see content that is accessible to any and every job, whether their weapons are Relic, Empyrean, Mythic, Magian, or just store-bought. Exclusionary content at this point will only accelerate the demise of this franchise.

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This issue is going to be made worse since it is not 20 jobs but 22 jobs or w/e with that out.

FFXI has too meany jobs and wow does fine with like 6?

a pt is 6 people, a full all is 18 people and the total job count is 22 .... I do not think it takes much thought why that is stupid.

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Originally Posted by Vyvian

I think the reason why the system isn't as balanced as people would like is that it's doing exactly what it was intended to. This isn't like WoW where once you picked a job that character is stuck on it forever and you have to reroll, necessitating some kind of "balance" between the matching class roles. If PUP is bad for legion, don't go PUP, seems to be the dev mentality.

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From a gameplay perspective, it makes sense to make certain jobs better for certain events for that reason in some ways, but I think they screwed up the way the reward structure works if they wanted it to work like that.

The problem is that if I was to play a single job, it means I have to eventually play content that the job is poor at running in in order to gear even that job properly, because they just stick items that are good for x job randomly between each event. I'm running an event a job is not good at on another job that IS good at it so I can gear the job that isn't good at just so it can continue being not good at it...wat.

For example, take the two pulse weapons in Legion (Without considering the fact that they're both mediocre for a second). Neither MNK nor NIN are particularly effective in Legion (MNK can do okayish, NIN is laughable). Let's say I only have MNK and NIN leveled...now I have to level WAR, skill it, then go around gearing it a lot just so I can get one more piece of gear for my MNK or NIN that won't even help me run said event better.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

And Tanaka was complained about for his brand of balance... now people are starting to miss it?

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I don't think anybody misses the balance attributed to Tanaka because I know I certainly wasn't satisfied back then either.

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Originally Posted by Vyvian

I think the reason why the system isn't as balanced as people would like is that it's doing exactly what it was intended to. This isn't like WoW where once you picked a job that character is stuck on it forever and you have to reroll, necessitating some kind of "balance" between the matching class roles. If PUP is bad for legion, don't go PUP, seems to be the dev mentality.

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My problem is with that mentality. I've never accepted "working as intended" as being synonymous with working as it should, and I definitely don't in this case.

To me, each job should be handled as if it's the only job available to someone's character. Does that mean every job should somehow be able to take on every possible role on its own? Of course not. BUT, when I utilize all that my job has to offer within its primary role, I should be on par with any other job performing the same role. That doesn't make all jobs the same. It just means they follow separate paths to reach the same goal. For hybrid jobs, I'll admit I don't have all the answers there, but it's obvious SE has never had the answers either. I think they definitely need to become more defined somehow.

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The natural response to this is, "well WAR is useful for everything", or "but PUP isn't ever wanted." I think the problem with this statement is people tend to filter out everything that isn't endgame events, and I don't think the dev team thinks this way. PUPs and BSTs can solo things, DNC has great utility in lowman, I wouldn't want to bring WAR to a duo dynamis, some people may and that's perfectly fine, but to me that just sounds like a pain.

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To anyone who came into the game wanting to play and master one specific job and do everything on that job, the system in place right now is a gigantic middle finger. I don't think it should be that way. If someone wants to play DNC and fight the biggest baddest NM in the hardest event around they should be able to do so. They should be able to contribute in a way that is considered valuable and certainly not detrimental. Combine their buffs/debuffs/healing/damage and you end up with a job that's just as welcome in that slot as one who just does damage or just buffs. I don't know why that would be so horrible.

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Since they haven't done anything to balance their jobs for the last 8 years, I'm pretty confident that their opinion is if you think the job you are playing is not useful, level a new job or do something else.

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And I'm sure that's great for the devs. People waste time leveling what turns out to be a generally useless job and then have to go back and level other jobs just to get through higher-end content. Now, at what point do they start thinking about what's good for the players?

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Endgame events are generally done with a larger scale of people, so it makes far more sense to use "extremes" and balance out the setup by assigning different roles, then to use lukewarm jobs and potentially have 1 or more areas lacking at the end of the day.

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It should be much harder to decide which jobs to take to an endgame event. The majority of jobs shouldn't be off the table from the outset. If you want to "foster skillful play" get a party leader's proverbial gears turning about what he prefers to take to the fight before he's even started shouting.