Stuff like that is why i saidQuote:
Originally Posted by wish12oz
Because of the way it getsQuote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
(Die hard DRK) DRK is better
(Die hard WAR) WAR is better
and repeat x 100.
In my opinion and from experience
As far as I've seen w/ legion DRKs do more DMG than WARs and i don't think cycling blood rage would change that but maybe we have alot of bad WARs on my server either way we are clearing legion and honestly that all that matters.
If we are winning by choosing DRKs over WARs (or our ukon wars going ragna drk cause they do more dmg that way) then it's the way it'll stay for our group anyway and like saev said we'll still have 1 cause the fighters roll bonus is worth it and it's not like there dealing bad dmg anyway.
and after all that i still don't want to say DRK > WAR cause it could be the WARs suck or that pple on our server only know how to play DRK or Ragnarok has a hidden effect if ya on the Ragnarok server but at the end of the day pple should have an open mind try w/ lots of WAR then lots of DRK and pick whats best for the group. also not to mention i don't have a 99 ukon and 99 rag so my opinion will definitely be onesided anyway.
DRK is 3x more OP than vanilla WAR's Ukko's Fury
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08-02-2012, 06:17 AMRezeak
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08-02-2012, 10:00 PMwish12ozYou can prove which is better with math. Just determine average damage per hit, average hits per round, and WS average for both, then use their delays to determine damage per minute or 5 minutes or whatever, and then compare the two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
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08-02-2012, 10:36 PMDaniel_HatcherNot unless you evened it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by wish12oz
As it stands naked DRK would probably win, but who does it naked (alone they have more speed and more attack). -
08-02-2012, 10:39 PMwish12ozIm not even sure what youre implying here, or why you think what I said wouldnt work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
Unfortunately for DRK the best thing to do would be to compare the best possible sets with good buffs, meaning DRK would not win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
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08-02-2012, 11:45 PMDaniel_HatcherWell on a whole, it'd be hard to do so. How could you truly compare unless you got gear that matched perfectly. Comparing a DRK to WAR would only work when they matched in that.Quote:
Originally Posted by wish12oz
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08-03-2012, 06:20 AMRezeakexcept your "math" that your using may prove WAR is better but i'm sure it's not enough to take in account of errors like fSTR, WS Delay, Ja Delay, Souleater Calc ect ectQuote:
Originally Posted by wish12oz
Math is nice when you can prove say a WAR or DRK is better by like 10-20% but when it's as close as it is there is no way that simple models that you discribe prove anything.
I believe the reason DRK beats WAR in our run is prolly down to these reasons
First DRK attack 6% faster than WAR
Ukons are only lvl 90
Attack and ACC still matter in legion even w/ good buffs and DRK beats war on both
Also the mobs that dispel give a larger advantage to DRK
Then finally souleater on every other mob adds alot of DMG
The above reason are math but it's more logic than some rough model
If you could hold buffs WAR would stand a chance vs DRK i'm sure but since there is no down time on Berserk/Endark/Last Resort/Agg -
08-03-2012, 08:36 AMwish12ozThis cant be your real argument as the best gear for each job is different. All you would have to do is compare the best possible set for WAR vs best possible for DRK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
You would solve for variables and see if anything matters. You would compare then at capped fSTR, low fSTR, capped pDIF, lowest estimated pDIF, lowest estimated pDIF with low and capped fSTR, etc. Or you could just skew the test in DRKs favor and watch WAR win anyway by saying pDIF and fSTR are always capped, even under the -8% attack from Resolution, thereby increasing DRKs WS damage and reducing the gains from critical hits WAR would get from full time blood rage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
You can prove under which circumstances one is better than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
I love how youre trying to dispute that math wont tell you the answer, when it will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
If you have no down time on your buffs, like berserk, why would a WAR have any down time for them like you're implying? That's just bad common sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
When talking about legion, you keep all buffs all the time. Except for something like souleater with its 6 minute? recast that isnt AOE and only affects 1 person. You will only get 1 of those per (3 mob) wave, 2 if your group goes slow, but since we're talking about optimal performance, your group won't be slow, and youll get 1.
You would even keep Blood Rage the whole time since Im advocating 3 WARs 1 DRK vs your 3 DRKs 1 WAR. Each WAR can Blood Rage at the start of each mob each wave and it will be up 100% of the time. 4 people with Blood rage full time and 1 souleater should beat 3 people with souleater every 3rd mob and 4 with blood rage once a wave. Granted the DRK party has more ability to do massive damage to one single target each wave and take it down faster if they need it compared to WAR group, since all 3 could use souleater on a single mob and have blood rage for that mob if needed, but the WAR group should do more overall damage. I think this is the only spot where the DRK party really shines myself. -
08-03-2012, 08:38 AMsaevelQuote:
Originally Posted by wish12oz
Doesn't work that way. DD's don't fight brick walls with infinite HP pools.
WAR's and DRK's deal damage in phases based on their current buffs and the time until those buffs can be reapplied. If the NM dies before those buffs expire then the DD's would of dealt higher damage then the average your talking about. The longer the NM lives the more average those numbers look until the recast cycle is back up and the DD can rebuff themselves. Basically Berserk / Aggressor are only 3min with a recast greater then their duration.
The infinite HP brick wall method is a good way to find out X item being better then Y item in Z situation, it's a bad way to compare two different jobs. -
08-03-2012, 12:48 PMRezeakLegion is 30 minsQuote:
Originally Posted by wish12oz
And you do not fight the mobs back to back (except when your trying to get PD to last 2 mobs)
30/6 = 5
On average you kill 6 + boss 7 mobs so getting 3-4 Souleater's off is not a bad estimate (well i've done it lol)
so yea souleater every 2 mobs a decent estimate since you do this
Buff (2-3 min to get all buff on)
Then PD Kill 1-2 mobs then rebuff then PD so by the next mob u have SE up
if you would tho i'd like to see you math workings for ukkos and resolution since what i get is Resolution is higher tho mine is very simple so wanna see if i missed something.
at 1.8 pdif
180STR + 143 * 5(0.94) * 0.92(1.8)
323 * 4.7 * 1.66 = 2520 for Resolution
0.6(200)str + 153 * 3.2 * (0.3(1.8) + 1.1(0.7(2.8))
273*3.2*(0.54+2.16)
273*3.2*2.60 = 2271 For ukkos
at 1.3 pdif (uncapped attack for sure)
180STR + 143 * 5(0.94) * 0.92(1.8)
323 * 4.7 * 1.66 = 2520 for Resolution
0.6(200)str + 153 * 3.2 * (0.3(1.8) + 1.2(0.7(2.8))
273*3.2*(0.54+2.35)
273*3.2*2.89 = 2524 For ukkos
180STR + 143 * 5(0.94) * 0.92(1.3)
323 * 4.7 * 1.19 = 1806 for Resolution
0.6(200)str + 153 * 3.2 * (0.3(1.3) + 1.2(0.7(2.3))
273*3.2*(0.39+1.93)
273*3.2*2.32 = 2026 For ukkos
Ofc this is very rough i gave Ukkos a 70% crit rate and 10% crit DMG tho to me it shows me there around equal unlike ur claim of stronger WS
Souleater and DA isn't factored in and the number are still high but i havn't corrected for Acc anyway
As for Blood rage like i said before it still doesn't beat the 2% haste advatage when u consider Ragna has 11-14% crit rate and a stronger/equal WS w/ Blood rage up for ukkos.
Also i'm implying downtime is bad for DRK really bad last resort Down time pretty much halfs our DMG if not more in that 1 min and 10 secs war downtime on buff is less detrimental on the job as say a DRK -
08-03-2012, 04:30 PMMeldity
to be honest your gear only needs to be subpar and a high enough dark magic skill to stun legion mobs. the JP's practically just force all their melee into 5 drk's and 1 drg for angon+4-5 ramuh smns and a few cors. pretty much the only reason why drk is a big deal in every event is because of stun. also don't tell me anything about voidwatch, that event is for casuals only.
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08-05-2012, 11:17 AMwish12ozI look at it more as:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Do rolls/songs: get SMN for PD, use PD, run to first pulled mob > use souleater, fight mob, this fight lasts 1 min~ > relock, get new smn, use PD, run to fight next mob thats pulled, this takes 1 min (2 min since used SE)> kill mob, 1 min (3 min since SE) > get new smn, relock, pd, run to next mob, 1 min (4 min since SE)> kill mob, 1 min. (5 min since SE) > redo rolls/songs and this is when souleater is up for use again.
If you're slow, sure you can get 2 souleaters in 1 wave, but thats not going to happen with a good group since it's 6 minute recast. even if fights last 1.5 minutes, and you spend the full 1 min to get a new SMN and pull, you're still not to 6 minutes til the third mob is half dead.
Ya, its not that bad of an estimate if your group is sorta bad and all your DRKs want to SE the same mobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Resolution will come out a bit ahead, unless attack is low, but its a 7 hit attacking faster VS Ukons 6 hit with higher damage per hit, higher extra attack rate, higher WS frequency, and I think Im forgetting something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Ukkos Fury in Legion will look something like this, assuming decently high fSTR and 2.0 pDIF, which shouldn't be to far off:
[{(270*2.2)*1.1}*{(3*.75)*1.22}+{2*.25}]+[(270*1.48)*{(3*.75)*1.22}+{2*.25}]
Which google says is 2892~
[{(270 base damage*2.2 fTP of first hit)*1.1 7% WSD of Phorcys body and 3% of Ogiers legs}*{(3*.75 cirt pDIF and Crit rate)*1.22 crit damage}+{2*.25 non crit pDIF and non crit rate}]+[(270 base damage*1.48 fTP of second hit and extra attacks)*{(3*.75 crit pDIF and Crit rate)*1.22 crit damage}+{2*.25 non crit pDIF and non crit rate}
If I knew what DRKs were suppose to be using I could give a real answer on this, but all my resolution figuring comes in around 3k, given the same parameters of decently high/capped fSTR and 2.0 pDIF. So unless attack is suffering, Resolution will barley win for WS average, but as I said, Ukkos should have a higher WS rate which makes up for this. Once the DRKs pDIF stops being capped during WSs Ukkos will start to pull even/win, since crit hits become more powerful and Resolution will basically have a -8% damage mod from the attack penalty.
Yes, it does work that way. Everything can be factored in, and everything can be proven one way or the other with math. And since we're speaking specifically about legion at this point, you will always have buffs like berserk, last resort, etc. The only ones you wont have is Blood rage without a WAR group, and Souleater.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
EDIT: Didn't post Resolution stuff.
(((300*.94)*1.07)*2)+(300*4.16)*2)=
It should look something like this for 2.0 pDIF, which is 3100~ damage
Add in -8% pDIF (1.84 instead of 2) and it drops to 2852~ Slightly below Ukkos. -
08-07-2012, 11:43 AMRezeak
Technically war would be on a 5 hit and drk a 6 hit if ya consider your getting 2 embrava ticks most of the time (sometimes you won't cause of da or ta or qa).
Now to the point all my clac's where are equal attack but the thing is either DRK will be at capped pdif in WS (meaning enough attack so the -8% attack has no effect) or it will be 15%-30% more attack than than the WARs which will mean Resolution should be stronger if i really want to get into depth.
Then you can factor in +900-1k DMG per WS for 33%-50% of the the time since 1 Souleater will last one fight.
Also i have found 5 min recast on Souleater is better than +10% attack on Last Resort for the above reason and usually LR + Berserk + Endark will cap out Attack. (30/5 = 6 so 4-5 souleater for 7-9 mobs so it's up 40-70% of the time)
The point i'm getting to is this i believe WAR and DRK is about equal when all is capped but the reason i put DRK ahead is this
When acc matters DRK pulls ahead since it has more.
When attack matters DRK pulls ahead again it has more.
When dDex for crit is low DRK pulls ahead cause Resolution isn't reliant on crits to boost it's WS DMG.
As for all the DRK Souleatering the first mob being a bad thing if killing the first mob as fast as possible so PD lasts 2 mob is a bad thing then /shrug or if pulling the strongest mob first so DRKs souleating and killing it before PD wears of is a bad thing?
you really can't prove this fully w/ just math that why i don't say DRK > WAR from the math i've done and my experience cause i don't have access to mobs Def, lvl, VIT, DEX ect -
08-10-2012, 03:22 PMBabekekeRecasts keep on ticking whilst you are locked on to hold your buffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by wish12oz
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08-11-2012, 05:13 PMRezeakWhooooshQuote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
Thats what we've been talking about for prolly the last 3 pages lol why else would you lock buffs if it wasn't to hold them as the recast keep ticking.
Edit : guess i missed the point more lol -
08-13-2012, 03:02 PMBabekekelol thanks for that. What I was getting at is that Wish is completely ignoring any time locked in her timeline.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
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08-16-2012, 08:05 AMwish12ozYes, I was counting the time since souleater was used, that is me completely ignoring it's recast. Or perhaps it's the complete opposite and it's me proving my point that you only get 1 souleater per wave of 3 mobs in a good group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
Lets look at this real quick, real numbers from an 18 man Legion run with my LS.Code:Fight # Enemy Killed? Killed By Start Time End Time Fight Length Exp Chain
1 Veiled Sandworm True Strify 10:34 PM 10:35 PM 00:00:32 0 0
2 Veiled Ixion True Strify 10:34 PM 10:37 PM 00:02:38 0 0
3 Veiled Amphiptere True Kaerin 10:36 PM 10:38 PM 00:01:58 0 0
4 Veiled Alicorn True Firalexys 10:39 PM 10:40 PM 00:01:04 0 0
5 Veiled Sanguiptere True Firalexys 10:40 PM 10:42 PM 00:01:46 0 0
6 Veiled Gigaworm True Kaerin 10:46 PM 10:47 PM 00:00:47 0 0
7 Veiled Ironclad True Kaerin 10:48 PM 10:49 PM 00:01:06 0 0
8 Veiled Alicorn True Kuzuri 10:48 PM 10:53 PM 00:04:09 0 0
9 Veiled Amphiptere True Kaerin 10:49 PM 10:50 PM 00:01:21 0 0
10 Veiled Ironclad True Firalexys 10:56 PM 10:57 PM 00:01:17 0 0
11 Veiled Sanguiptere True Kaerin 10:59 PM 11:01 PM 00:01:11 0 0
12 Veiled Sandworm True Kaerin 11:00 PM 11:02 PM 00:01:04 840 0
10:34 -> 10;38 first wave of 3 mobs.
10:39 -> 10:47 second wave of 3 mobs.
10:48 -> 10:53 third wave of 3 mobs.
10:56 -> 11:02 fourth wave of 3 mobs.
The second wave, where we quit in the middle to redo rolls before the worm, is the only time that 2 souleaters could of been used on a single group of mobs.
This was caused by our bad setup as we didn't have everyone around we normally do for the event, and had to replace some of our 12~ members with more mules than we normally bring. We even brought a random person who isn't even in our LS. As a consequence we ended up bringing WARx3, SAM and MNK, which isn't our normal setup, and only 2 of the WARs (Strify and I) are normally on melees, we had to make substitutions for the best we had left over after other jobs were filled, so our damage was actually gimped. Or the other possibility is that we should of redone rolls before starting the second wave. Either way, the only reason you get more than 1 SE per wave is a result of player error. (Buffing between waves is ideal since you have 1-2 minutes of forced downtime after each wave before the next wave spawns.)
So anyway, if you used souleater then, you would not have gotten to use souleater on the 3rd group til the last mob, and same with the fourth. One souleater per group of 3 is the norm, not the exception. Unless your group is bad or something. BTW I just happened to have saved this as it was an accuracy test on the Ixions, but Im posting the relevant portion of it to this this thread. There is an error though, the 4 minute Ailcorn we didnt actually fight til 51 or 52. I'm not sure why it says we started sooner than that honestly.
So in this set of runs we can see that because of player error, you get 1 extra souleater, but its generally 1 per wave, exactly as I was saying it is. it's not really something I think is worth debating. Screw up and you get more souleaters, dont screw up and you get one. Full time Bloodrage beats 1 souleater per mob wave.
Sorry for the long delay from my last post too, forgot this thread was here, I probably won't reply again either, my point has been made.
EDIT: Ixions/Alicorns like to run around, and Amphipteres like to do AOE knockback, which extends their fight time a little to a lot. -
08-16-2012, 12:28 PMwish12ozStuff is out of order, no PD at the end for the last Vampire, ended up not being able to kill it and leaving the chamber. Check out those fight times though, SE = once per wave.Code:
Fight # Enemy Fight Length Exp Chain
1 Soaring Vampyr 00:00:45 0 0
2 Soaring Vampyr 00:10:00 0 0
3 Soaring Dvergr 00:00:36 0 0
4 Soaring Corse 00:00:36 0 0
5 Soaring Strigoi 00:00:50 0 0
6 Soaring Dweorg 00:00:35 0 0
7 Soaring Kumakatok 00:00:53 0 0
8 Soaring Naraka 00:01:32 0 0
9 Soaring Dweorg 00:00:45 0 0
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08-17-2012, 09:31 AMRezeak
30/6 = 5 with 6 mins to spare
So drk will get 5 souleaters off most legion runs
Either let me say again
we have both prioved as long as DRK has 8% more attack than WAR or both are capped in WS then Resolution is stronger than Ukko w/ Blood rage up.
using ur no. 3100/2892 = 1.07 = +7% WS dmg
Now Factor in Souleater using ur 1 SE per wave then 33% of the time Souleater will add 1-950 per WS but call it 900 to be safe.
so 4000*0.33 + 3100*0.66 =
1320 + 2077 = 3397
3397/2892 = 17% more WS DMG over ukkos
482 X 4 X 0.2125 = 409.7/60 = 6.828 + 1(Ws delay) = 7.8 sec per WS
431 X 5 X 0.2 = 431/60 = 7.18 + 1 = 8.18
8.18/7.8 = +5% more WSs for Ukkos
2892*1.05 = 3037
3397/3037 = 1.12
So DRK will do 12% more WS DMG than War if both jobs are at capped attack, dDex and accuracy
Will WAR make up some of that via Ukon's Aftermath yes maybe all of it but one thing to say is by no mean Blood rage makes WAR >>>> DRK infact it prolly weakens WAR if you can't keep Blood rage up full time cause you lack WAR or Good WARs it's Safer to have DRKs.
Now to the point and please read this.
*1 Me and You have proven there is very little difference in WAR vs DRK at capped attack, dDex and accuracy but heres the reason i put DRK above WAR
When Accuracy matters which it does DRK has +40 (Ragna) over WAR at least and another 20 from Diabolic Eye when needed and Souleater grants +25 Accuracy
Meaning DRK at least has 60 Accuracy over WAR meaning when accuracy matters DRK will do 1%-30% more Damage than WAR going by point 1.
When attack matters persumming the -8% attack for Resolution is there LR and Bersrk Alone will push DRK to 17% more attack than WAR but it doesn't end there.
From attack bonuses DRK has + 62 more attack which is about +10% before buffs are added
Meaning when attack matters DRK will out DMG WAR by 1%-27% before u even consider endarks + 60ish Attack bonus as well.going by point 1.
Finally dDEX to get 75% crit rate in ukkos you need to be high up on the dDEX rating mean when it isn't Ukko DMG will drop off vs Resolution even more and no your not gonna stack DEX for STR in ukkos agian going by point 1.
So to the point if you can prove you can keep Attack, Acc and dDex at all times then you may have a real case for WAR being better than DRK (but not by much and well outside the area you can prove) but since these do matter DRK is prolly better than WAR.
And lets not get to the point on certain mob you can stack -dt/pdt gear over using PD or if it wear off DRK can gear more cause they only need 14% haste in gear to keep haste capped -
08-17-2012, 03:25 PMwish12oz4 waves, 1 SE per wave, unless you mess up, or your group is bad. Thats all you get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
No, it gets four, unless youre bad, or you mess up. I'm sorry your group is bad at Legion, but you only get 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
28%~ from TP/moonshade, 5% merits, 5% base, 20% blood rage, 11% items, 73%~ Base crit without counting DEX, which can go up to +15%. I simply figured DEX could be worth 3-4%~ easy and went with 75, cause it's a nice number. I wasn't saying with capped dDEX it's 75%. 90%~ is what you use for capped dDEX. And according to the parses I see, on a lot of mobs, your crit rate is actually capped or really close. gogo TEAMcat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
And using this TP set:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/255456
you acc is capped, according to parses, on everything. My attack appears to always be capped according to melee averages and estimated mob lvl as well, but without knowing mob stats I can't say this for sure.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...20812_2246.jpg
If nothing else though, it looks like it should be. (Ignore the base DEX value, DEX merits arent capped yet cause I've been lazy.)
Full timing blood rage puts Ukon WARs on even footing with DRKs as far as overall damage over the whole event goes. But WARs superior 2 hour is why they're better. DRKs shine for their ability to cast stun and have it actually land, repeatedly a lot, and their ability to add extra damage to a certain mob if needed, every wave, but overall the damage is the same, unless the WAR uses Mighty Strikes, then they win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
The above set = capped ACC on everything on WAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Im sure DRK caps attack and get that slight edge in WS damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Again, 75%~ is normal, 90%~ crit rate is what it would be for capped dDEX.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
If I can show parses as evidence for capped acc/att/what crit rate is then I can do that. Mind you I dont have many, and small sample sizes, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
ACC and ATT don't matter as much in Legion as people think they do, you just need the right buffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Mobs last 1 min~ PD lasts 1.5~ minutes, it wont wear off if you're not in a bad group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
EDIT::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Looking at those numbers again:
Given what I know about Legion now due to parses, I can safely say this what the real WS numbers should look like.
My melee average (with 99 Ukon, AM1 only) over 7 parse is in the 325~ range, this leads me to believe my attack is capped, since my attack varies by a few hundred points lol, and that cratio is around 1.5 to 1.8 with capped attack. 1.8 is really the absolute max I can see it being, so I'm going to use 1.7, since thats on the high side and will push things into Ragnaroks favor.
Base crit rate Ukkos
(((270*2.2)*1.1)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))+((270*1.48)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))
2602
Capped dDEX Ukkos
(((270*2.2)*1.1)*((2.7*.9)*1.22)+(1.7*.1))+((270*1.48)*((2.7*.9)*1.22)+(1.7*.1))
3122
Resolution
(((300*.94)*1.07)*1.7)+(300*4.16)*1.7)
2634
As you can see, even giving Resolution the advantage and assuming pDIF is higher than it probably is, Resolution actually doesnt have an advantage over Ukkos Fury when we account for level correction, and thats at minimum crit rate possible for TEAMwar inside Legion. Add in some extra crit rate from DEX, and Ukkos crushes Resolution. Plus the Ukon is going to get more WS's in the same amount of time, and hit harder, and maybe more, I'm not real sure about what DRK TP sets for Legion look like. But if you would like to inform me, I can do an accurate comparison for white damage and ws frequency too. -
08-17-2012, 07:52 PMsaevel
Wish will figure out where they messed up eventually.
On a different note
There is no way in hell a WAR is going to be capping dDex during Ukko's on anything that we would be having this discussion over. That's 50 DEX over the targets AGI, meaning 160+ during WS for a NM with 110+ AGI. Also the last 10 points are the most important, so if your at 160 then you'll cap on a 110 AGI mob, if it's a 120 AGI NM then you might as well not even bothered. Seeing as we don't know the exact AGI for most of the NM's we'd be having this conversation over, then it would be impossible for our theoretical WAR to have capped dDex on them all, or even most of them.
Attack / Accuracy are things we're much better at pegging down and thus able to alter builds around. When your stacking Berserk / LR / Min x 2~3 and food then -8% on Res ends up meaning nothing as you tend to soar right past the Ratio cap. Attack bonus / penalty's are applied before Ratio cap, thus enough attack can compensate for it. This is something we learned from Gekko and Ground Strike testing. -
08-18-2012, 01:22 AMTaint2
No interest is supplying more napkin math but Ejiin one of the top DDs on any server and also part of one of the most successful NA Legion groups swears by WAR with Ragnarok. (he has 99 Ukon as well)
Saevel - agreed on the dDEX, you are going to be pretty much floored on 2nd tier+ Legion.
One thing nobody has mentioned is Tomahawk and how important that is on top tier mobs. -
08-18-2012, 03:50 AMwish12ozWhen we started Legion I just kind of assumed mobs would have around 130 AGL, but we saw some strange 'that looks way to high' crit rates around 140 DEX. Theres lots of reasons we could be seeing those numbers though, small sample sizes and all, but Im not convinced mobs in Legion even have 110 AGL anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
DRK should always be attack capped as long as you bring a COR and a BRD, even with 100 TP Resolutions.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taint2
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post344183Quote:
Originally Posted by wish12oz
Page 3
And thats the correct thing to do when all your other DDs are DRKs andf you're the token WAR for the COR roll. Since you dont have other WARs to cycle bloodrage, you cycle warcry and Resolution will end up being better. My arguement is that Ukon is better when you use 1 DRK and a bunch of WARs. And also that a setup of a bunch of WARs and 1 DRK is superior to lots of DRKs and 1 WAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taint2
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08-18-2012, 05:27 AMTaint2
His group uses atleast 2 WARs for Tomahawk. Sometimes you try too hard to justify Ukon. 5 WARs just to keep bloodrage up seems like a stretch when other DDs bring additional factors to the table.
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08-18-2012, 07:35 AMUrteilPraise the lord.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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08-18-2012, 07:53 AMRezeak
@30 secs = 1st Souleater
@7mins = 2nd Souleater
@13mins and 30 sec = 3rd Souleater
@20mins = 4th Souleater
@26 mins amd 30 secs = 5th Souleater
ur 12 fights took place 10:34-11:02 = 28 mins
28mins > 26 and 30 secs
soooooo
So you bad at legion?Quote:
Originally Posted by wish12oz
As for attack this is what it I've seen....
I have seen 90 ukon avg dmg per hit excluding SE hits and crits it hits for less than a 95 ragna DRK w/ the same buff which mathematically it shouldn't (it should do more w/ aftermath) if attack didn't matter.
Also I once used carbonara over red curry and my WS dmg dropped a noticeable amount on it's avg (about 400 odd) showing to me that even w/ LR Berserk Endark Chaos and Minuet X 2 i can still notice a difference of 90ish attack (and 4 STR)
Either way lets just say this ...
If infact Acc and attack is cappable w/ buffs then you could do this....
DRK/SAM and 5 hit w/ Ragnarok when embrava is up and increase it's WS DMG by +20%ish meaning ahead of WAR on WS DMG (and it would still have more acc and attack than WAR) but because it does matter it's just not true.
With the correct merits you can get 5 SE off in 20 mins (thats 5/5 SE recast and LR effect)
Even then you ignore it in ur calculations even at 1 per wave it adds 300+ avgerage to you WS
Also i love how
143 base DMG + 180str at 100% STR Weapon DMG = 300
(possible to have more)
Then when i look at your gear since ur calculation in belt oglers and gorget into dmg you have 71+103 STR = 174*0.6 = 104
104+260 = 260 base dmg maybe you accounting for fSTR but your not doing the same for DRK
apart from that i know you are very very detailed w/ the maths you use for WAR you missing ALOT out when you consider DRK and ofc you push WAR ahead cause of this.at 1.7 pdif
323*0.94*5*1.7*1.07 = 2855
then +300 avg from SE = 3155 (that's considering 1 SE per wave)
then 20% Da
0.2*0.94*1.7*1.07*323*2 = 221
So 3355 for resolution
You say Moonshade gives +8% crit when 100-200 tp is a 15% crit inc so
15*0.25 = 3.75
So from ur set 11(crit gear)+4(moon)+20(blood)+5(merits)+5(base)+20(ukko) = 65-70% varing on mobs AGI
ofc your 8 could be from tp overflow and we could go that direction just remember Resolution DMG increase about 4% for every 25 tp over you are.
For 8 u'd be WSing at 125 tp at least so ur losing 1 hit at least there.
@90% crit @ 1.7 ur avg cratio is
.1*1.7 + .9*2.7*1.22
0.17+2.96 = 3.13 (overall cratio for 90% crit rate)
260*3.13*3.2*1.1 = 2864
and +24% DA rate
0.24*260*3.13*1.1*2 = 429
So 3293 for Ukko @ 90% crit rate
0.25*1.7 + 0.75*2.7*1.22
0.43 + 2.47 = 2.9
260*2.9*3.2*1.1 = 2654
0.24*260*2.9*1.1*2 = 398
So 3052 for ukkos @ 75% crit rate
Fighters rolls closes the gap by about 100 dmg for every 10% DA
So yea it's not the resolution destroyer ya claim it to be
Hidden cause it's too long :(
Anyway i'll leave it there
As for white DMG DRK has 5% Quad + 2% triple + 16% Da before WAR sub It can have more but you kinda need the stp to hold the 6 hit
Then 99 ragna has +14% and occsonally does X2.5 dmg (not sure on rate tho i have read it's @13% and it only can proc on first hit if ya DA TA or QA)
Honestly i'm kinda done here for a few reasons best couple is you really can't grasp the concept of using SE when it's up and locking it w/ lee way for 30 sec for each SE (30 secs is alot)
Thing is this is what ur really saying
We can kill all 12 mobs in 27 mins and well even tho we have time to kill one more ... nahh we suck to fight after 27 mins cause u could use a 5th souleater..
Or if ya at 25 mins w/ the 12th mob up you shouldn't wait 30 secs for recast to make the fight easier cause you suck to make the most of the 30 mins given.... plz
Then this....
Fact is if your want to kill 12 mobs everytime you won't have pd up full time so you need to be able to kill mobs w/out it using shock squall order and what not.Quote:
Originally Posted by wish12oz
Either way in most halls we use prolly 2 and sometimes 1 PD a wave so we only need 6-8 SMNs a run -
08-18-2012, 09:53 AMwish12ozI specifically said that was a bad run, and that we messed up and had to do rolls in the middle of the second wave. I bet you wish you could say you messed up, only had 11 people and cleared 12 mobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
What you fail to comprehend is the basic strategy of using DRKs. With 4 DRKs, the idea is to have 2 of them souleater the hardest mob, which you pull first to alleviate strain on the kiter, and 1 on each of the other 2 mobs every wave. This way your WHM doesnt want to kill them self dealing with 4 SE's on a single mob repeatedly, and it spreads the damage out more so you dont lose SE time waiting for PD to wear so you can lock your buffs. This is the strategy for using lots of DRKs.
It looks like this: Pull first mob in a wave: 2 DRKs SE, mob dies in 1~ min (1 min since SE was used), then you spend 1 minute getting a new SMN, waiting for PD to wear, locking buffs, then getting a new PD, then running to the next mob (2 min since SE was used at this point), kill second mob, this takes 1 minute (3 min since SE was used) spend 1 min getting new smn/waiting on PD/locking buffs/getting new PD/running to the mob 3, this lasts 1 minute, (4 minutes since SE was used). Kill last mob of the wave, takes 1 minute (5 minutes since SE was used)
As you can see, each wave of fighting mobs lasts 5~ minutes. which means when you're done fighting the wave, the first 2 DRKs SE's are up. At this point you redo some buffs waiting for wave 2 to spawn, then repeat the process. Unless you want to use SE in the middle of getting buffs, then lock it so your timer is up sooner, you'll only be able to actually do 1 SE per wave. And since the strategy is to vary SE's on different mobs, this is pointless, because eventually you will have people SEing mobs when they shouldnt. Like lets say for instance you use SE as soon as its up during the buffing waiting for wave 2. Ok, 2 DRKs now have SE for the first mob, the third DRK who SE's the second mob every wave has SE up for the first mob too, so he uses it to maximize the amount of times you can use it, and now you have 3 DRKs SEing 1 mob, mob dies in 30~ seconds, and half your SE time is spent waiting for PD to wear so you can lock buffs. And now the 4th DRK SE's the second mob of the wave, and then no one has SE up for the third mob of the second wave, and all 4 DRKs SE the first mob of the third wave. Do you see why this is stupid and doesn't work the way you think it does now?
You get 1 SE per wave.
95 Ragnarok has higher base damage than 90 Ukon..... Empyrean level 1 aftermath is the same increase as the hidden extra damage procs on Relics also. Based simply on that, the Ragnarok should hit harder. And we're not talking about gimp level 90 Ukon vs gimp 95 Ragnarok. We're talking about 99 vs 99 witht he best gear. I'm sure your scrub WAR with the 90 Ukon had bad other gear to go with his 90 Ukon also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
So how much attack total did you have? 1200? 1300? 1400? Suck less. Legion is about completely Optimal setups or not doing very well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
All SAM sub gives you in Legion in some extra STP. You lose more than you gain. And rather than talk about all this amazing stuff DRK has over WAR, how about you post the set you use, so we can compare it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Which isn't short enough to be able to do SE twice in 1 wave of mobs unless youre bad/mess up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
180*.85=153Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
143+153=296
How much are you adding for fSTR? Everything I ever saw for Resolution puts the damage right around 300. How about you post the gear set you use and I will tell you the exact number.
The 270 is based on the gear I use for my 99 Ukon in Legion, and yes, it adds some fSTR. If I knew exactly what DRKs use I could give you a better number, but as far as I've seen, 300 is correct. Post your gear set, and base STR, and I'll determine what it should be, k?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
I am missing a lot for DRK, which is why I've asked repeatedly for gear sets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
This is just all kinds of wrong. Phorcys body is only counted on the first hit of a WS, and I'm not even going to pretend I understand how you're counting DA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Im counting TP overflow to put you at 125~ TP average for every WS, which is correct for WARs, and moonshade adding an extra 25 TP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
According to the DEVs, at 100 TP Ukkos is 20% crit rate, at 200 TP it's 35% crit rate.
35-20=15
15/2=7.5
7.5+20=27.5
so 27.5 is what Im really saying crit rate from TP is, I just used 28 cause it looks better. But again, dDEX adds at least 3 crit rate to Ukkos, and I only gave it 2. So as you can see, I round up and down to make nicer numbers, like the 75% base crit rate, it should actually be a bit more.
This isn't correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
If you want absolutes,
TP is going to be at least 27
Rancorus mantle is 5
AF3+2 mask is 3
Claymore grip is 3
base is 5
merits 5
bloodrage 20.
Bare minimum is 73.
And thats only if mobs have like 145 AGL.
Saying 75% crit rate is actually giving it less credit than it's actually worth. I was only using 75 because it's a nicer number to work with than 78 or 79, which is what I should be using. But I'm trying to tone Ukkos damage down a bit since I dont know exactly what Resolution WS sets are for Legion. How about you tell me, and then I will do exact math.
this is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
I'm not even going to try and understand thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Again, not going to pretend I understand I under how you're counting DA. But Ukkos is not a 1 hit WS, and it kinda looks like you're only counting DA once, when it should be twice, and you're also forgetting WAR's roll from the COR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Capped dDEX Ukkos is much higher than Resolution in legion, sorry to disappoint you, but you should recheck your math, I know it's wrong because your answers look nothing like mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
You 7 hit Ragnarok as far as I'm aware, and you also cant use Mala in Legion as far as I'm aware, and I dunno where you get Triple attack from. How about you post your gear set.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
SE duration is shorter than PD, you can't lock PD because PD doesn't overwrite PD, you have to let it wear off before you lock. I.E. you cannot lock SE and save it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
At that point pretty much all your buffs are down, you have no PDs, and you need to wait 1-2 minutes for the next wave to spawn, which means you're done. And again, only 2 DRKs would get that SE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
You right dawg, our 12 man Legions with 12 kills is pathetic, if only we were as good as your LS. What does your LS accomplish again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Only 6-8 SMNs? My group brings 5 and just hopes our CORs reset them. We really only 2 mobs without PD. And we always be sure to know which we're doing PDless, so we can get the end of one of our PDs at the beginning of the fight. We generally pick the squishiest target and pair it with the second squishiest right before, so we have PD for every mob. With our 12 kills and 5 SMNs. If it doesnt work out we just ditch the chamber, no big loss. Mul has the good drops anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
And seriously, you going with 36? You must be to bring that many SMNs.
3 is all you need to full time Blood rage, but it's a waste unless pretty much everyone is using Crit WS's. So optimal setup would be 4x WAR 1xDRK (for chaos roll) for the melee party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taint2
-
08-18-2012, 01:27 PMRezeakThats all fine as well but you not doing the same for DRK which agian is what you need to be doing to prove WAR > DRKQuote:
Originally Posted by wish12oz
I have 109+77 STR in gear = 186
186 + 143 = 329 also it possible to have more STR than what i use it's not hard lol
Difference between 95 Rag and 90 ukon is 2 base dmg and gear shouldn't matter (even tho they are geared well) so w/ All attack buff ukon should hit harder on none crits and none SE hits (ukkos aftermath is stronger than relic bonus to hit even at lvl 1)
Phorcys i'm sure apply to the entire WS but if it does work like gorgets then it applys to all of resolution since that's how the WS works.
btw i accounted for both hits in you notice the X2 at the end and i already said war roll gives +100 DMG more to ukkos for every 10% it adds as an estimate.
as for the nos i gave
.1*1.7 + .9*2.7*1.22
0.17+2.96(this is whats ABOVE) = 3.13 (overall cratio for 90% crit rate)
Or a better way to say it your Average cratio is 3.13
260(base dmg)*3.13*3.2(2.2ftp+1.0ftp)*1.1(Ws bonus) = 2864 (before DA)
then for da you remove the ftp mod and x2 xDa%
It's a much simpler way to calculate WS DMG since you can ater it quickly since each part is defined once.
3293 is what i got for 90% c/rate ukkos
and 3355 is what i got for resolution using 1 SE per wave
All the data i used was from your gear sets from FFXIah
So after fighters roll yea it would be stronger thing is you claiming your stacking near 150 dex and 206 str as well as gearing gorget+belt+oglers
we clear 12 w/ 18 and don't need to rely on wildcard /shrug not 100% of the time ofc btw
As for gear all my gears sets and working more stuff out nahhhh i wasted enough time on here alot is on FFXIah + i have like 3-5 different Tp sets and alot of varying gear and since you really arn't trying to discuss the stuff i post and rather get made and call me dumb so yea i'd rather play FFXI on FFXI than on a calc w/ you.
what have i done /shrug prolly all the same crap you've done a million times FFXI is easy and there no content that is impossible with decent groups and yea done legion and killed 9-13 on most run it's not that big of a deal the hardest part of legion is organization tho the final chamber is tough.
Edit: btw all i wanted to show was DRK is on the same level as WAR instead of the claim you making where WAR > DRK clearly cause you did the math yet... when it came down to it you havn't even worked out how my STR DRK has in WS before you made those claims soooo yea you were clearly saying WAR > DRK cause i said so before this.
Lets not get into error bars and crap since you also need to prove WAR is better by more than the margin of error the formulas that we have derivied at the end of the day your hours of work away from proving anything imo. -
08-18-2012, 06:07 PMwish12ozWSC modifiers at 99 are multiplied by .85 than whatever for WSC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
A 100% STR WS, with 186 STR and a 143 damage weapon is
(186*.85)+143
which is 158+143, or 301.
About the DRK fTP per hit thing, I was using your .94/hit number. I actually would of put it higher, because I assume moonshade goes in the WS set, but I dont really know, the last time I saw a set claiming to be the best, moonshade wasnt in it.
Whats the proc rate and damage multiplier on 99 Ragnarok again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Conclusive testing shows its first hit only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
There's no needs for estimates or guessing, you can just convert extra attacks to fTP and get solid numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Like if we look at Ukkos Fury, 3 fTP, 2 for the first hit, 1 for each additional, 2 hits base. With 24% DA, this changes the fTP to 3.48, since the first 2 hits of any WS can get the extra attacks added onto them, get it? This is the proper way to account for DA/TA/etc in WS's.
If we look at Ukkos numbers.
Base crit rate Ukkos
(((270*2.2)*1.1)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))+((270*1.48)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))
2602
Then add 10% DA.
(((270*2.2)*1.1)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))+((270*1.68)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))
2736 is the new average, which is 134 damage. You can't just "guess" 10% DA gives some random value, and hope its right.
Thats nice and all, but unfortunately, it's wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
You should of gotten 3122.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
How much HP do you have? 1500~? so an extra 150 damage/hit if youre capped, resolution is 5 hits, so an extra 750 damage when SE is up, and since it's up on one out of 3 mobs, we can take 33% of 750 and add it to Resolutions WS numbers and be pretty close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Resolution
(((300*.94)*1.07)*1.7)+(300*4.16)*1.7)
2634+(750*.33)
2881 Average Counting SE.
Again, your numbers are way off.
And which of the 30 item sets for WAR on my FFXIAH page did you look at to determine my Legion WS set? I only ask because my Legion WS set isn't posted there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/19...up/71/#1982332
But if you read this post, you will know what to do.
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/251374
You use this set with Heca hands+1, since you will always have more than base crit rate, and you would use Thunder belt and Ogiers pants since you need the ACC, and you would not switch on Mekira hat+1 ever since you need the ACC on the AF3+2 mask.
Speaking of sets, when will you tell me yours so I can tell you more precisely what your Resolution average is?
Not at all. Im saying I gear 200 STR (103 base, 68 gear, 7 hasso, 15 minuets, 7 food), 10% WSD, 11% Crit, 24% DA, and thunder gorget/belt with capped acc/att.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
(200*.85)*.60=102
Ukonvasara 99 is 156 base Damage, which gives it a weapon rank of 17, and means it's fSTR cap is 25.
If we figure Legion mobs have 130 ish VIT, this leaves me with 70~ STR to tally into fSTR, 70/4=17
102+156+17=275
So you're totally right, I should be using 275, instead of just guessing it to be 270 because I wanted to gimp it a little bit. I guess I should count boost STR also, and lower what the mobs VIT could potentially be too. Then I could cap my fSTR and be even better off. Lets go with that number. My new damage for all Ukko's calculations is going to be 295 instead of 270.
Originally I typed something mean here, but I deleted it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
You don't even know how to count WSC or fSTR, yet you accuse me of not knowing stuff? Why don't you tell me your gear set?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
I am hours away from proving to you that TEAMwar is better than TEAMdrk, but I would be a lot closer if you provided anything beyond random numbers and complaints that I was trying to make Ukko's seem better than it was, when I've been doing the exact opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
-
08-18-2012, 08:43 PMwish12oz
Note to self: Restraint
-
08-19-2012, 06:07 AMHelel
Considering RNG with annihilator/armageddon + adaman bullet completely destroys both of these jobs DD-wise, I'm not sure why we need 7-8 pages arguing which job is best when neither are. It was already easy enough to out-parse them before the update; now with the ranged attack delay reduction it's stupidly easy. This is assuming capped haste with embrava, 4x minuet, chaos, etc.
-
08-19-2012, 06:42 AMRezeak.... yea i didn't do it for both cause i was doing a rough comparsion but you know whats worse doing it for 1 then ignoring it on the other tho the way i accounted for fstr wasn't equal but it was much fairer than ignoring it on one.Quote:
Originally Posted by wish12oz
186+7(food)-130 = 63
63/4 = 15.75
and the 7 from food = 6 more dmg
which give 322ish
0.94 is w/ moonshade
it's 1.04 42% of the time but not worth talking about that.
My hp is @ 1675 w/ red curry which adds 837.5 a ws then u add in the da which is
167.5*2(2 chances)*0.2 = 67
67 + 837.5 = 904.5
Ragna proc rate is (approx) equal to 20% ODD but cause it's 2.5 X DMG it's a 13% rate also it can't proc anything but the first on Da ta or Qa were as emps can.
(none of this data i gained my self and i'm not gonna work it out too much of my free time to waste)
For WS i pretty much use this set http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/269691 except i use Bale +2 legs (12 STR and alot of acc and atk)
As for WSC my bad i usally ignore it to take account of fSTR on Resolution but it would seem doing it for ukkos was prolly not favorable (ignoring like 40% of fSTR)
Btw i dunno what you have done on ya Resolution no. so i can't comment on difference i do know the 4.16 is something to do w/ the 4 hits + double attack
As for Phorycs procing on first hit I've seen no evidence on it so i went by common sense that cause the Gorget and belt do it would be safe to assume that all Weapon skill dmg modifiers do. Saying that i'd like to see the post proving it only procs on first hit of the new WSes. -
08-19-2012, 06:51 AMwish12ozhttp://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j1...iled_troll.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Helel
-
08-19-2012, 08:32 AMwish12ozhttp://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108...=1#post5231047Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Since I view this as the most important thing, Im answering it first. All testing is in that thread, somewhere before that post, as far as Im aware. I Favorited that post since it has the different types of WSD listed and their effects for refference later if I ever needed to know/forgot.
I was using other peoples numbers, I didnt come up with any of those. I have no idea where the 300 came from. I thought I said this, but I guess I didn't since you keep bringing it up. I didnt come up with the 300 or the .94 ftp/hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Using the same rationale as I did for Ukkos, and looking up the fTP modifier based on TP, I'm going with .98 fTP/hit with moonshade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
That's only if you keep capped HP for every single attack round, the average will be lower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
1574 on second hit
1495 third
1420 fourth
1349 fifth
1281 sixth
1217 seventh
1256 HP is where the bar turns yellow, meaning 25% of HP is gone, I'm going to assume this is where the WHM notices your HP is low and cures you. Since you're going to also take some damage even with PD up, Im not going to assume you get seven his in between cures and use the middle number as the average. But, Resolution is 5 hits, which is a huge amount of HP to be missing, and youll need 3 rounds between WS's With Embrava and all the DA you have. Plus I'm assuming theres a WHM with cureskin casting on you, which will be good for a hit or two at capped HP, plus Embrava Regen, and maybe even the regen spell. Given all of these factors, I would say SE adding 150 damage/hit on average is a good number to use, as thats what your HP would give you when down 1 attack.
Diabolic Eye will also drop your HP to 1400~ So if you're using that would lower your average even more, but we'lll assume you dont need to use it.
The rest of your post Im not quoting or going over, but anyway, here's my new WS numbers, which should be completely accurate.
Resolution,
DRK/WAR, capped attack, Lucky Fighters roll w/ WAR, Boost STR, 3x Minuet, Moonshade earring, 125%~ base TP every WS, with Souleater used every 3rd mob.
1.5-1.6-1.7 pDIF
(((355*.98)*1.07)*pDIF)+((355*4.62)*pDIF)+((150*5.8)*.33)
3305-3507-3708
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/269691 <<<DRK AF3+2 Legs instead of Ogiers.
Ukko's Fury,
WAR/SAM, capped attack, Lucky Fighters roll w/ WAR, Boost STR, 3x Minuet, with full time Bloodrage, 2.5 rounds average between WS's w/ Restraint and AF3+2 hands, which should add 5% WS damage to the whole thing.
1.5 (2.5 Crit)-1.6 (2.6 Crit)-1.7 (2.7 Crit) pDIF
((((295*2.2)*1.1)*((Crit pDIF*.84)*1.22)+(pDIF*.16))+((295*1.84)*((Crit pDIF*.84)*1.22)+(pDIF*.16)))*1.05
3381-3516-3652
http://www.ffxiah.com/members/item-sets/?id=270010
As you can see, if cratio is around 1.5, Ukkos wins, if it's around 1.6, Ukkos wins, if it's around 1.7, Resolution wins, but Ukonvasara has a higher WS frequency, so it still wins. These are absolutely going to be the pDIF values you have in Legion, 1.6 is what I really think it is with capped attack, so I did 1.5-1.7.
If you want to post a TP set, I will be glad to compare those and tell you about white damage and why Ukon wins there as well, and how many more Ukkos Furys you get than Resolutions. -
08-19-2012, 04:09 PMsaevelNot exactly no. It was tested with a Ranged WS and Answig Salad +2%, the resulting numbers were not outside the error range of the test due to 2 and 3% items being so small. It also depends on the WS, it doesn't apply to both hits on Backhand blow yet it does apply to both hits on Atonement (yes atonement is calculated as two separate magic hits). The people in the BG thread basically just /shrug and moved on to testing avatar MAB. The JP test they were quoting was discussing the WSD+ weapons and the specific items that enhance certain WS's (Backhand blow +30% ect..). Seems "WSD+" items work differently based on the item and WS, going to make testing it to 100% one helluva nightmare.Quote:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108...=1#post5231047
Since I view this as the most important thing, Im answering it first. All testing is in that thread, somewhere before that post, as far as Im aware. I Favorited that post since it has the different types of WSD listed and their effects for refference later if I ever needed to know/forgot.
Personally tempted to go smack somethings with Res a few times and see where the damage split lands. 5 hits should be enough to detect +5% (use Phorcys body) vs +1%. -
08-20-2012, 03:12 AMRezeak
You use only D.eye when Souleater isn't up tho i only really use it for the Unicorn
As for hp loss it's not that big of issue if you have good SMN and WHM the DRK should be getting cure bombed and the solace stoneskin+embrava offsets alot of it then one of the 4 SE is offset totally by Bloodweapon
Outside of PD being down hp rarly drops below 1400
As for DRK 6 hit w/ 2 embrava ticks you get 12 tp (takes longer than 6 secs to get 5 hits off after a WS considering Ws delay)
then you get 17tp back from Res (in rose + raja)
so u need 71 tp back in 5 hits
71/5 = 14.2
14.2/11 = 29
This 5 hit isn't 100% cause of Qa Ta Da giving you the abilty to get 5 hits off in 3 attack rounds but most of the time it works and is definitively the best way to use the haste overflow
Ws delay + 4 attack rounds = about 6 secs on rag
Rose + Oglier + Raja + Tyrants + H.stone + phorcys legs = 32 store tp (DRK has more stp option so yea 6 hit is very possible w/ embrava and it's the reason why 5 hit is possible for WAR)
Then u can Bale+2 head+Enif body+Mala+Windbuffet+Atheling+Phroc feet+Brutal
For 14% Da + 5% QA and 2% Ta
Gear Haste total is 15%
15% + 25% + 43.75 = 83.75 so u still cap haste
This isn't my gear set atm since i'm messing around w/ a few stuff but it's prolly the best for you to play with atm.
On the P.Body WS dmg i still can't see that as being proof. I mean yea ok some WS DMG was proved to work on 1 hit which inculed Gorgets but the new WS it usually effects all hit either way w/out proper testing there in no way to be sure least it would still be the best body for WS w/ or w/out the WS DMG for DRK so it's not something i need test. -
08-22-2012, 01:08 AMTaint2
Phorcys Body is definitely 1st hit only.
I've tested with Resolution. Naked+16str WS low lvl mobs. (2000-3000hp) You don't get a 10% increase using Phorcys body and Ogiers. -
08-22-2012, 01:35 AMRezeak
thx Taint ^^ guess i should be using Twilight for Entropy then
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08-22-2012, 04:00 AMTaint2Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
I dumped Entropy. No real reason to have it with Rag. (I see you have both as well)
Its either Apoc for lowman stuff or Rag for damage. -
08-22-2012, 07:27 AMRezeak
I hardly use Entropy outside of needing mp Cata seems to be just as strong and it heals and when you self skillchain it's <3 and like you said if damage is important i'll get my Rag out.
i think if i do play SAM or RNG i'll switch Entropy once i get 99 apoc
the other WS i have is Ruinator and well that's a money make so that'll be there till dyna dies -
08-22-2012, 08:36 AMsaevel
Thanks Taint. All the testing I read was with too small a number to get a definite answer, 10% on a 5 hit WS should definitely allow for a 100% confidence result.