DRK is 3x more OP than vanilla WAR's Ukko's Fury

[wish12oz]

Legion is 30 mins

And you do not fight the mobs back to back (except when your trying to get PD to last 2 mobs)

30/6 = 5

On average you kill 6 + boss 7 mobs so getting 3-4 Souleater's off is not a bad estimate (well i've done it lol)

I look at it more as:

Do rolls/songs: get SMN for PD, use PD, run to first pulled mob > use souleater, fight mob, this fight lasts 1 min~ > relock, get new smn, use PD, run to fight next mob thats pulled, this takes 1 min (2 min since used SE)> kill mob, 1 min (3 min since SE) > get new smn, relock, pd, run to next mob, 1 min (4 min since SE)> kill mob, 1 min. (5 min since SE) > redo rolls/songs and this is when souleater is up for use again.

If you're slow, sure you can get 2 souleaters in 1 wave, but thats not going to happen with a good group since it's 6 minute recast. even if fights last 1.5 minutes, and you spend the full 1 min to get a new SMN and pull, you're still not to 6 minutes til the third mob is half dead.

so yea souleater every 2 mobs a decent estimate since you do this

Ya, its not that bad of an estimate if your group is sorta bad and all your DRKs want to SE the same mobs.

if you would tho i'd like to see you math workings for ukkos and resolution since what i get is Resolution is higher tho mine is very simple so wanna see if i missed something.

Resolution will come out a bit ahead, unless attack is low, but its a 7 hit attacking faster VS Ukons 6 hit with higher damage per hit, higher extra attack rate, higher WS frequency, and I think Im forgetting something else.

Ukkos Fury in Legion will look something like this, assuming decently high fSTR and 2.0 pDIF, which shouldn't be to far off:
[{(270*2.2)*1.1}*{(3*.75)*1.22}+{2*.25}]+[(270*1.48)*{(3*.75)*1.22}+{2*.25}]
Which google says is 2892~

[{(270 base damage*2.2 fTP of first hit)*1.1 7% WSD of Phorcys body and 3% of Ogiers legs}*{(3*.75 cirt pDIF and Crit rate)*1.22 crit damage}+{2*.25 non crit pDIF and non crit rate}]+[(270 base damage*1.48 fTP of second hit and extra attacks)*{(3*.75 crit pDIF and Crit rate)*1.22 crit damage}+{2*.25 non crit pDIF and non crit rate}

If I knew what DRKs were suppose to be using I could give a real answer on this, but all my resolution figuring comes in around 3k, given the same parameters of decently high/capped fSTR and 2.0 pDIF. So unless attack is suffering, Resolution will barley win for WS average, but as I said, Ukkos should have a higher WS rate which makes up for this. Once the DRKs pDIF stops being capped during WSs Ukkos will start to pull even/win, since crit hits become more powerful and Resolution will basically have a -8% damage mod from the attack penalty.

Doesn't work that way.

Yes, it does work that way. Everything can be factored in, and everything can be proven one way or the other with math. And since we're speaking specifically about legion at this point, you will always have buffs like berserk, last resort, etc. The only ones you wont have is Blood rage without a WAR group, and Souleater.



EDIT: Didn't post Resolution stuff.
(((300*.94)*1.07)*2)+(300*4.16)*2)=
It should look something like this for 2.0 pDIF, which is 3100~ damage
Add in -8% pDIF (1.84 instead of 2) and it drops to 2852~ Slightly below Ukkos.

[Rezeak]

Technically war would be on a 5 hit and drk a 6 hit if ya consider your getting 2 embrava ticks most of the time (sometimes you won't cause of da or ta or qa).

Now to the point all my clac's where are equal attack but the thing is either DRK will be at capped pdif in WS (meaning enough attack so the -8% attack has no effect) or it will be 15%-30% more attack than than the WARs which will mean Resolution should be stronger if i really want to get into depth.

Then you can factor in +900-1k DMG per WS for 33%-50% of the the time since 1 Souleater will last one fight.

Also i have found 5 min recast on Souleater is better than +10% attack on Last Resort for the above reason and usually LR + Berserk + Endark will cap out Attack. (30/5 = 6 so 4-5 souleater for 7-9 mobs so it's up 40-70% of the time)

The point i'm getting to is this i believe WAR and DRK is about equal when all is capped but the reason i put DRK ahead is this
When acc matters DRK pulls ahead since it has more.
When attack matters DRK pulls ahead again it has more.
When dDex for crit is low DRK pulls ahead cause Resolution isn't reliant on crits to boost it's WS DMG.

As for all the DRK Souleatering the first mob being a bad thing if killing the first mob as fast as possible so PD lasts 2 mob is a bad thing then /shrug or if pulling the strongest mob first so DRKs souleating and killing it before PD wears of is a bad thing?

you really can't prove this fully w/ just math that why i don't say DRK > WAR from the math i've done and my experience cause i don't have access to mobs Def, lvl, VIT, DEX ect

[Babekeke]

I look at it more as:

Do rolls/songs: get SMN for PD, use PD, run to first pulled mob > use souleater, fight mob, this fight lasts 1 min~ > relock, get new smn, use PD, run to fight next mob thats pulled, this takes 1 min (2 min since used SE)> kill mob, 1 min (3 min since SE) > get new smn, relock, pd, run to next mob, 1 min (4 min since SE)> kill mob, 1 min. (5 min since SE) > redo rolls/songs and this is when souleater is up for use again.

Recasts keep on ticking whilst you are locked on to hold your buffs.

[Rezeak]

Recasts keep on ticking whilst you are locked on to hold your buffs.

Whoooosh

Thats what we've been talking about for prolly the last 3 pages lol why else would you lock buffs if it wasn't to hold them as the recast keep ticking.


Edit : guess i missed the point more lol

[Babekeke]

Whoooosh

Thats what we've been talking about for prolly the last 3 pages lol why else would you lock buffs if it wasn't to hold them as the recast keep ticking.

lol thanks for that. What I was getting at is that Wish is completely ignoring any time locked in her timeline.

[wish12oz]

lol thanks for that. What I was getting at is that Wish is completely ignoring any time locked in her timeline.

Yes, I was counting the time since souleater was used, that is me completely ignoring it's recast. Or perhaps it's the complete opposite and it's me proving my point that you only get 1 souleater per wave of 3 mobs in a good group.

Fight #   Enemy                   Killed?   Killed By           Start Time   End Time   Fight Length   Exp   Chain
1         Veiled Sandworm         True      Strify                10:34 PM   10:35 PM       00:00:32     0       0
2         Veiled Ixion            True      Strify                10:34 PM   10:37 PM       00:02:38     0       0
3         Veiled Amphiptere       True      Kaerin                10:36 PM   10:38 PM       00:01:58     0       0
4         Veiled Alicorn          True      Firalexys             10:39 PM   10:40 PM       00:01:04     0       0
5         Veiled Sanguiptere      True      Firalexys             10:40 PM   10:42 PM       00:01:46     0       0
6         Veiled Gigaworm         True      Kaerin                10:46 PM   10:47 PM       00:00:47     0       0
7         Veiled Ironclad         True      Kaerin                10:48 PM   10:49 PM       00:01:06     0       0
8         Veiled Alicorn          True      Kuzuri                10:48 PM   10:53 PM       00:04:09     0       0
9         Veiled Amphiptere       True      Kaerin                10:49 PM   10:50 PM       00:01:21     0       0
10        Veiled Ironclad         True      Firalexys             10:56 PM   10:57 PM       00:01:17     0       0
11        Veiled Sanguiptere      True      Kaerin                10:59 PM   11:01 PM       00:01:11     0       0
12        Veiled Sandworm         True      Kaerin                11:00 PM   11:02 PM       00:01:04   840       0

Lets look at this real quick, real numbers from an 18 man Legion run with my LS.

10:34 -> 10;38 first wave of 3 mobs.

10:39 -> 10:47 second wave of 3 mobs.

10:48 -> 10:53 third wave of 3 mobs.

10:56 -> 11:02 fourth wave of 3 mobs.

The second wave, where we quit in the middle to redo rolls before the worm, is the only time that 2 souleaters could of been used on a single group of mobs.

This was caused by our bad setup as we didn't have everyone around we normally do for the event, and had to replace some of our 12~ members with more mules than we normally bring. We even brought a random person who isn't even in our LS. As a consequence we ended up bringing WARx3, SAM and MNK, which isn't our normal setup, and only 2 of the WARs (Strify and I) are normally on melees, we had to make substitutions for the best we had left over after other jobs were filled, so our damage was actually gimped. Or the other possibility is that we should of redone rolls before starting the second wave. Either way, the only reason you get more than 1 SE per wave is a result of player error. (Buffing between waves is ideal since you have 1-2 minutes of forced downtime after each wave before the next wave spawns.)

So anyway, if you used souleater then, you would not have gotten to use souleater on the 3rd group til the last mob, and same with the fourth. One souleater per group of 3 is the norm, not the exception. Unless your group is bad or something. BTW I just happened to have saved this as it was an accuracy test on the Ixions, but Im posting the relevant portion of it to this this thread. There is an error though, the 4 minute Ailcorn we didnt actually fight til 51 or 52. I'm not sure why it says we started sooner than that honestly.

So in this set of runs we can see that because of player error, you get 1 extra souleater, but its generally 1 per wave, exactly as I was saying it is. it's not really something I think is worth debating. Screw up and you get more souleaters, dont screw up and you get one. Full time Bloodrage beats 1 souleater per mob wave.

Sorry for the long delay from my last post too, forgot this thread was here, I probably won't reply again either, my point has been made.

EDIT: Ixions/Alicorns like to run around, and Amphipteres like to do AOE knockback, which extends their fight time a little to a lot.

[wish12oz]

Fight #   Enemy                     Fight Length   Exp   Chain
1         Soaring Vampyr               00:00:45     0       0
2         Soaring Vampyr               00:10:00     0       0
3         Soaring Dvergr                00:00:36     0       0
4         Soaring Corse                00:00:36     0       0
5         Soaring Strigoi               00:00:50     0       0
6         Soaring Dweorg               00:00:35     0       0
7         Soaring Kumakatok            00:00:53     0       0
8         Soaring Naraka                00:01:32     0       0
9         Soaring Dweorg               00:00:45     0       0

Stuff is out of order, no PD at the end for the last Vampire, ended up not being able to kill it and leaving the chamber. Check out those fight times though, SE = once per wave.

[Rezeak]

30/6 = 5 with 6 mins to spare

So drk will get 5 souleaters off most legion runs

Either let me say again

we have both prioved as long as DRK has 8% more attack than WAR or both are capped in WS then Resolution is stronger than Ukko w/ Blood rage up.
using ur no. 3100/2892 = 1.07 = +7% WS dmg

Now Factor in Souleater using ur 1 SE per wave then 33% of the time Souleater will add 1-950 per WS but call it 900 to be safe.

so 4000*0.33 + 3100*0.66 =
1320 + 2077 = 3397

3397/2892 = 17% more WS DMG over ukkos

482 X 4 X 0.2125 = 409.7/60 = 6.828 + 1(Ws delay) = 7.8 sec per WS

431 X 5 X 0.2 = 431/60 = 7.18 + 1 = 8.18

8.18/7.8 = +5% more WSs for Ukkos

2892*1.05 = 3037

3397/3037 = 1.12

So DRK will do 12% more WS DMG than War if both jobs are at capped attack, dDex and accuracy

Will WAR make up some of that via Ukon's Aftermath yes maybe all of it but one thing to say is by no mean Blood rage makes WAR >>>> DRK infact it prolly weakens WAR if you can't keep Blood rage up full time cause you lack WAR or Good WARs it's Safer to have DRKs.

Now to the point and please read this.

*1 Me and You have proven there is very little difference in WAR vs DRK at capped attack, dDex and accuracy but heres the reason i put DRK above WAR

When Accuracy matters which it does DRK has +40 (Ragna) over WAR at least and another 20 from Diabolic Eye when needed and Souleater grants +25 Accuracy

Meaning DRK at least has 60 Accuracy over WAR meaning when accuracy matters DRK will do 1%-30% more Damage than WAR going by point 1.

When attack matters persumming the -8% attack for Resolution is there LR and Bersrk Alone will push DRK to 17% more attack than WAR but it doesn't end there.

From attack bonuses DRK has + 62 more attack which is about +10% before buffs are added

Meaning when attack matters DRK will out DMG WAR by 1%-27% before u even consider endarks + 60ish Attack bonus as well.going by point 1.

Finally dDEX to get 75% crit rate in ukkos you need to be high up on the dDEX rating mean when it isn't Ukko DMG will drop off vs Resolution even more and no your not gonna stack DEX for STR in ukkos agian going by point 1.

So to the point if you can prove you can keep Attack, Acc and dDex at all times then you may have a real case for WAR being better than DRK (but not by much and well outside the area you can prove) but since these do matter DRK is prolly better than WAR.

And lets not get to the point on certain mob you can stack -dt/pdt gear over using PD or if it wear off DRK can gear more cause they only need 14% haste in gear to keep haste capped

[wish12oz]

30/6 = 5 with 6 mins to spare

4 waves, 1 SE per wave, unless you mess up, or your group is bad. Thats all you get.

So drk will get 5 souleaters off most legion runs

No, it gets four, unless youre bad, or you mess up. I'm sorry your group is bad at Legion, but you only get 4.

So DRK will do 12% more WS DMG than War if both jobs are at capped attack, dDex and accuracy

28%~ from TP/moonshade, 5% merits, 5% base, 20% blood rage, 11% items, 73%~ Base crit without counting DEX, which can go up to +15%. I simply figured DEX could be worth 3-4%~ easy and went with 75, cause it's a nice number. I wasn't saying with capped dDEX it's 75%. 90%~ is what you use for capped dDEX. And according to the parses I see, on a lot of mobs, your crit rate is actually capped or really close. gogo TEAMcat.

And using this TP set:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/255456
you acc is capped, according to parses, on everything. My attack appears to always be capped according to melee averages and estimated mob lvl as well, but without knowing mob stats I can't say this for sure.

If nothing else though, it looks like it should be. (Ignore the base DEX value, DEX merits arent capped yet cause I've been lazy.)

Will WAR make up some of that via Ukon's Aftermath yes maybe all of it but one thing to say is by no mean Blood rage makes WAR >>>> DRK infact it prolly weakens WAR if you can't keep Blood rage up full time cause you lack WAR or Good WARs it's Safer to have DRKs.

Full timing blood rage puts Ukon WARs on even footing with DRKs as far as overall damage over the whole event goes. But WARs superior 2 hour is why they're better. DRKs shine for their ability to cast stun and have it actually land, repeatedly a lot, and their ability to add extra damage to a certain mob if needed, every wave, but overall the damage is the same, unless the WAR uses Mighty Strikes, then they win.

Now to the point and please read this.

*1 Me and You have proven there is very little difference in WAR vs DRK at capped attack, dDex and accuracy but heres the reason i put DRK above WAR

When Accuracy matters which it does DRK has +40 (Ragna) over WAR at least and another 20 from Diabolic Eye when needed and Souleater grants +25 Accuracy

Meaning DRK at least has 60 Accuracy over WAR meaning when accuracy matters DRK will do 1%-30% more Damage than WAR going by point 1.

The above set = capped ACC on everything on WAR.

When attack matters persumming the -8% attack for Resolution is there LR and Bersrk Alone will push DRK to 17% more attack than WAR but it doesn't end there.

From attack bonuses DRK has + 62 more attack which is about +10% before buffs are added

Meaning when attack matters DRK will out DMG WAR by 1%-27% before u even consider endarks + 60ish Attack bonus as well.going by point 1.

Im sure DRK caps attack and get that slight edge in WS damage.

Finally dDEX to get 75% crit rate in ukkos you need to be high up on the dDEX rating mean when it isn't Ukko DMG will drop off vs Resolution even more and no your not gonna stack DEX for STR in ukkos agian going by point 1.

Again, 75%~ is normal, 90%~ crit rate is what it would be for capped dDEX.

So to the point if you can prove you can keep Attack, Acc and dDex at all times then you may have a real case for WAR being better than DRK

If I can show parses as evidence for capped acc/att/what crit rate is then I can do that. Mind you I dont have many, and small sample sizes, etc.

(but not by much and well outside the area you can prove) but since these do matter DRK is prolly better than WAR.

ACC and ATT don't matter as much in Legion as people think they do, you just need the right buffs.

And lets not get to the point on certain mob you can stack -dt/pdt gear over using PD or if it wear off DRK can gear more cause they only need 14% haste in gear to keep haste capped

Mobs last 1 min~ PD lasts 1.5~ minutes, it wont wear off if you're not in a bad group.

EDIT::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Looking at those numbers again:
Given what I know about Legion now due to parses, I can safely say this what the real WS numbers should look like.

My melee average (with 99 Ukon, AM1 only) over 7 parse is in the 325~ range, this leads me to believe my attack is capped, since my attack varies by a few hundred points lol, and that cratio is around 1.5 to 1.8 with capped attack. 1.8 is really the absolute max I can see it being, so I'm going to use 1.7, since thats on the high side and will push things into Ragnaroks favor.

Base crit rate Ukkos
(((270*2.2)*1.1)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))+((270*1.48)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))
2602

Capped dDEX Ukkos
(((270*2.2)*1.1)*((2.7*.9)*1.22)+(1.7*.1))+((270*1.48)*((2.7*.9)*1.22)+(1.7*.1))
3122

Resolution
(((300*.94)*1.07)*1.7)+(300*4.16)*1.7)
2634

As you can see, even giving Resolution the advantage and assuming pDIF is higher than it probably is, Resolution actually doesnt have an advantage over Ukkos Fury when we account for level correction, and thats at minimum crit rate possible for TEAMwar inside Legion. Add in some extra crit rate from DEX, and Ukkos crushes Resolution. Plus the Ukon is going to get more WS's in the same amount of time, and hit harder, and maybe more, I'm not real sure about what DRK TP sets for Legion look like. But if you would like to inform me, I can do an accurate comparison for white damage and ws frequency too.

[saevel]

Wish will figure out where they messed up eventually.

On a different note

There is no way in hell a WAR is going to be capping dDex during Ukko's on anything that we would be having this discussion over. That's 50 DEX over the targets AGI, meaning 160+ during WS for a NM with 110+ AGI. Also the last 10 points are the most important, so if your at 160 then you'll cap on a 110 AGI mob, if it's a 120 AGI NM then you might as well not even bothered. Seeing as we don't know the exact AGI for most of the NM's we'd be having this conversation over, then it would be impossible for our theoretical WAR to have capped dDex on them all, or even most of them.

Attack / Accuracy are things we're much better at pegging down and thus able to alter builds around. When your stacking Berserk / LR / Min x 2~3 and food then -8% on Res ends up meaning nothing as you tend to soar right past the Ratio cap. Attack bonus / penalty's are applied before Ratio cap, thus enough attack can compensate for it. This is something we learned from Gekko and Ground Strike testing.