ATTN: Dev/Comm. Rep -Relic & Mythic Weapons Reborn {Yes, Please}- レリックとミシックの強化

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Originally Posted by Sama

Here it my SS right before server goes down:

SS ==> http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/s...8/lolMetsu.png

Laugh all you want...

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I dont find that funny I find that sad, if that doesn't say fix me i dont know what does

I have plenty of SS too that show mandau do mercy stroke again Easy Prey mob for 63 to 127 dmg, i just never gonna understand how that work.

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Dynamis outdate sky?

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Sky came out a short while before dynamis (the missions granting access that is), an amount of time that, in today's standards, would be a single version update , but not many people had access to it or uncovered all of its secrets until well after dynamis was out. Content within the same add-on disc does not usually obsolete eachother, but usually does obsolete some or more stuff from the previous one. Sky was out, but in it's infancy when dynamis was new. It took a much longer time between the last content developed for 75 (the story add-ons) and content for post 75 (abyssea). That said, only a couple of items from sky were better than anything in dynamis (basically kirin drops, which kirin wasn't really being fought much at the time of dynamis' release), and the Byakko's Haidate, which was stupidly good at the time and is still useful today.

2 things:

1) I've been playing since NA launch, 10/2003... Sky was available months before Dynamis
Sky proof: (Latest release had to be 12/6/2003) http://www.zam.com/wiki/December_16%...tes_%28FFXI%29
Dynamis proof: (Released 2/26/2004) http://www.zam.com/wiki/February_26%...tes_%28FFXI%29

2) I have a level 90 Tizona... it is so gimp compared to Almace in DD department... It's ONLY saving grace is the Double Attack proc rate for 300TP Expiacion; with my DA/TA build, I usually get 300TP back in <1:20, maximizing DMG->MP return (which still sucks at level IV). The ToAU and WotG jobs are doubly-screwed as they can't utilize any relics, limiting our choices even more. SE said they're saving the best for last @ lvl 99... I sure hope they follow through with that.

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Sky was available months before Dynamis

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A few months, yes, I already stated that. I personally consider sky and dynamis effectively concurrent. The two events mostly overlapped and were done concurrently by players (largely becuase of the restrictions on dynamis). Sky was not obsoleted by dynamis, but Sky also didn't have as much stuff and not everybody benefited from it. So let me rephrase: Most stuff *before the release of the Zilart expansion* was obsoleted by Dynamis. sky neither obsoleted nor was obsoleted by dynamis.

You also need to remember that not everybody had access to sky the moment it was released, in fact very few did. You had to complete most of the Zilart missions first. Dynamis on the other hand only required something that many people had completed already.

Why not just allow there to be a NPC or quest involved to somehow merge the relic, mythic, and empyreal weapons together to combine the stats and maybe give a random augmented boost on the side? When doing this merging of the weapons though you have to specialize in the relic becoming a weapon only for one specific job though to do this. There should also be a cooldown period but after the cooldown period you can pry apart your merged weapons to make them individual again if you want to re-merge them or use them individually. With tweaked merged weapons and all combined WSs on one weapon that might solve everyone's issue of relic vs empyreal conflicts?

It's just an idea and might sound unbalanced, but I'm sure SE can figure out a way around that as well.

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Originally Posted by Chronofantasy

Why not just allow there to be a NPC or quest involved to somehow merge the relic, mythic, and empyreal weapons together to combine the stats and maybe give a random augmented boost on the side? When doing this merging of the weapons though you have to specialize in the relic becoming a weapon only for one specific job though to do this. There should also be a cooldown period but after the cooldown period you can pry apart your merged weapons to make them individual again if you want to re-merge them or use them individually. With tweaked merged weapons and all combined WSs on one weapon that might solve everyone's issue of relic vs empyreal conflicts?

It's just an idea and might sound unbalanced, but I'm sure SE can figure out a way around that as well.

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There is a different thread talking about that idea, it is a nice idea, a fusion quest but here is the problems of it:

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Originally Posted by Rambus

Bow (RNG) > relic/ emp
Bow (SAM) > relic only
crossbow > mythic only
gun (COR)> mythic/ emp
gun (RNG)> Relic/emp
shield > relic/ emp
instruments> relic (horn)/ emp (string), not even the same type
BRD dagger > relic/ mythic/ emp
DNC dagger > Mythic / Emp
THF dagger > relic /mythic/ emp

point with dagger is that brd, dnc, thf use the weapons in different ways, thus how does that effect the result of the fusion? BRD using relic dagger does nothing for BRD's primary function.

Sword (BLU)> mythic/ emp
Sword (RDM/PLD) relic >mythic>emp

(like with dagger, sword fuction is way different for the jobs)

Great sword (war) > relic
Great sword (PLD/DRK) Relic/ emp
Axe ( bst) > relic /mythic/ emp
Axe ( War) > emp

Staff (BLM/SMN)> relic/ mythic/ emp
Staff (SCH) > mythic/ emp

I think thats all the conflits that exists for a fusion of weapons

This is why fusion quests can't work, there be too much left out ( like SAM using bow, war using axe) and so on. There is that issue or the fact some jobs might have OP issues ( like sam using a super, ultra bow)
sam with that relic bow is a fuzzy issue though, if SE makes that weapon strong again I guess it wouldn't matter. I still think there is too much conflict with weapons and job functions ( mythics where ment to be more job function then relics/ emps) relics and emps are just damage so emp club, emp staff are more appealing to magic casters then the other weapons.

I love the idea of fusion weapons like this thread suggests but stuff like i said needs to be work out. I think those problems would be overwhelming to implement such a thing.

Anddddd I am a bit offended you would make best brd instrument swring, strings suck and im sure the emp sucks if you marco, the only thing spechal about it is 3 songs.... ooooooooooooooh

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How would you solve such issues?

They even said they were lowering the drop rate for coins in dynamis.

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Originally Posted by Unctgtg

They even said they were lowering the drop rate for coins in dynamis.

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I pointed to hint that because someone told me that but I never found where they stated it.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

I pointed to hint that because someone told me that but I never found where they stated it.

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Check Dynamis reborn twitter

In that same post, they said they still expect the currency supply to increase, most likely because of increased participation and being able to visit more often.

Relics have already been updates through trials to the points of stupidly amazing.
Did they do trails for Mystic? I didn't notice.

Point still stands that its not the weapons that need any fixing for Relic side. It's the ws's that need to be fixed. Mythics, yes they need an upgrade on the job specific part. Making Relic weapons their self's stronger won't fix anything. Both Relic and Mythic ws's are really weak.

Might as well update every WS while you're at it. You're talking about a 75 WS needing to be stronger then a 90 one.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Might as well update every WS while you're at it. You're talking about a 75 WS needing to be stronger then a 90 one.

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Many relic WS aren't that great at 75 either. They are more about additional effects and level 3 skillchain attributes. What you got when you got a relic was mainly a super strong weapon. The WS is usually just a bonus.

The relic WS could have been better, even before level cap rise.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Many relic WS aren't that great at 75 either. They are more about additional effects and level 3 skillchain attributes. What you got when you got a relic was mainly a super strong weapon. The WS is usually just a bonus.

The relic WS could have been better, even before level cap rise.

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Exactly, I already siad that with the trials they are stupidly powerful. So there's no need for an update to the WS.

Currently this is how I see the weapons based off their Additional effects, WS aftermath, WS TP mods, and Stats:

Emp weapons:
Game-breakingly overpowered.
Hidden effect: No? (heard only speculation on this so not certain since occurrences of higher than expected damage has been reported on normal strikes even when taking into account aftermath effect)
Stats: 2nd best base dmg : Delay ratio, +10-15 stat varies by weapon
WS Number of hits: 1-4 depending on WS
TP Mods: Primarily geared towards DD potential (this includes the ones that only "ignore defense")
TP % Mods: Increases dmg potential rather noticably
Aftermath: doubles the damage potential and processes often.
Duration: Varies by TP
Conclusion: Primarily DD oriented

Relic Weapons:
Highest DoT potential and player buff
Hidden Effect: Yes Occasionally does 2.5-3x damage
Stats: Highest base damage : Delay ratio +20~35 att or accuracy depending on weapon.
WS Number of Hits: 1....regardless of animation appearance
TP Mods: Adds various buff to individual such as Accuracy, critical hit rate, Shock Spikes, STP, Haste (All of which become obsolete in abyssea due to atma/cuor buffs pretty much capping you out already
TP % Mod: Other than increased Aftermath duration...........serves no purpose to store beyond 100% when you can regain that before aftermath effect wears off.
Aftermath: Primarily buffs player
Duration: Varies by TP
Conclusion: Primarily DoT oriented with player buff the goal.

Mythic Weapons:
Primarily Job Ability Augmenting weapons
Hidden effect: No
Stats: 3rd Highest base damage : Delay + increases Macc/Mab or additional job oriented secondary support function
WS Number of Hits: 1-6 hit varies by WS
TP Mods: Varies by weapon. May be debuff, damage increase, or critical chance
TP % Mod: Increases in most cases based off WS, in other cases increases duration or critical chance.
Aftermath: Varies by TP %
Duration: Varies by type of aftermath
Conclusion: Primarily enhances aspects of the job

Now taking this all into account, and understanding this isn't the problem people are having. The problem most are having is the fact that the WS damage isn't just lower by a little, but extremely lower to the point it is being out performed by WS that don't require a special weapon to even use. Most who completed the weapon don't want to use the WS even for the aftermath effect in abyssea because it is hardly worth activating over using a non-relic WS to get better damage returns that would be equal or more worth while after factoring the gain from the aftermath effect. This leaves the only real saving grace of the weapon.....the fact that it has a Hidden effect and that it is the highest DoT weapon. Otherwise it is almost not worth using in comparison. Even some mythics would be worth using over the relic due to this rationale just because the mythic augments job abilities and is noticeable.....where as the relic...is just for DoT.

That is what has all the relic owners up in arms, not the fact that Emp. just out Dmg them, but that they just aren't really worth the effort put into them anymore because SE was too afraid of breaking the game balance back when they were first added. Now SE has thrown caution to the wind and some of these weapons are so unbalanced that the jobs can low-man (1-2) certain things that otherwise take more individuals (4-8) to fight. If that isn't unbalanced...I don't know what is.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Relics have already been updates through trials to the points of stupidly amazing.
Did they do trails for Mystic? I didn't notice.

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relic only gain base dmg though trials, and attack for one handed
2handed get more accuracy but since anybody cap acc in aby on most stuff with attack food, this boost does near to nothing for relics (allow to use attack food on the <5 monster where other use pizza?)

and MYTHIC (not mystic) got same kind of trial, get a new tier of "enhance JA" each new lvl cap,

Not all mythics are lowest in D, some weapon types they are tied with relics:

http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/8/83/Trial2339.png
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/1/15/Trial2667.png
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/b/b1/Trial2669.png
course BLU and RDM are less:
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/7/75/Trial2670.png
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/5/5a/Trial2668.png

just one exmaple, dont really wanna fill this thread with pics though

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Originally Posted by hiko

and MYTHIC (not mystic) got same kind of trial, get a new tier of "enhance JA" each new lvl cap,

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just some. see sword ^

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See that the next problem in all this: 多芸は無芸 [Too Many Accomplishments Make No Accomplishments]

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The game needs more options.

1. Relics, Mythics, Empyreans should be "accomplishment" weapons, taking time and effort.
2. Augment weapons should take little time, and allow you to combine any stats you want to make them your own style.

This would allow you to either put effort into a Nirvana, getting aftermath, pet MAB, -perpetuation, +accuracy. Or make your own -perpetuation and accuracy staff if you want one. 5 stats and really rare, or 2 stats of your choice out of these super weapons, so you can enjoy the game, but not enjoy being special.

Everyone would be happy, and nothing would be needed to be done easier. (Just add more "pick augments" quests)

/waves at Camate again
plz look at this thread (^ ^ ; )/

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Originally Posted by Kiba

/waves at Camate again
plz look at this thread (^ ^ ; )/

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bump for the sake of Camate seeing it again

Who is Camate?

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Originally Posted by Rambus

Who is Camate?

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One of the MODs.

Screw the WS damage the ODD is what really makes Emps >>>> then relics. Anyone that says the Relic WS kill trials are easier then any 90 emp is on crack. Killing 8k+ mobs at 60/hr is borderline tortore, yes the mobs are easy but the task was gruling, mind numbing and tedious. I pumped out a 90 Emp 30ish hours if that and for the most part it was fun.

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Originally Posted by Unctgtg

bump for the sake of Camate seeing it again

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yeah he was browsing forums for 4 hours this afternoon, was hoping to catch his attention. oh well ^^;

The ODD on emps applying on all hits? is this correct? like it can proc on all 7 barrage arrows? or all rounds of H2H attack and kick attack? that part is OP yes but emp still deserve aftereffect.

Is Camate the person that posted on gym fourm? I do like they took interest in that but I really think this thread/issue is very big esp with older players

I have a Mandau which is still pretty competitive. There are relics however that got completely destroyed. Kikoku Spharai and Bravura are probably the most outclassed. So much so that the WoE version with just the Empyrean WS will out parse them. Relics should be competitive. They don't need to be hands down the best available but they should at least be in the running.

Mythics have always been about utility. Put things like "Enhances Refresh" on the rdm sword and put Meteor on the BLM staff. Add more damage enhancements to the DD weapons. THF and DRG are the only DD mythics I can think of that aren't 100% pointless.

ALMOST everyone who has a relic or mythic put months of time into it in one way or another. Just cause you can spend 90-200mil and buy one of these in a few days doesn't mean you didn't work your ass off for that gil. Relic and Mythics should be on equal standing with Empyreans. That way the masses can be appeased and those of us who put in the foot work can still be happy with the effort we put forth and not feel like it was wasted time.

If you off hand a relic, do you still get the WS?

No, Tsukino. You only get the DMG/Delay from it(not the Attack or WS).

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Originally Posted by Futan

No, Tsukino. You only get the DMG/Delay from it(not the Attack or WS).

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^ You also don't get the Add Effect or hidden 2/3x mod. 100% vanilla.

Now that there is official information on when the servers will be back online, I would like to touch base on this topic by bumping. Community Team Representatives please give attention and review. The first post is a compilation of threads addressing issue with balance between relic, mythics, and empyreal weapons, suggesting adjustments made to relic and mythic weapons. The decision to take action or give a response on the validity of this issue lies in the hands of the development team, so we hope on behalf of players concerned with this issue that the community team can relay this to the development team for review. Thank you.

I suggest not trying to balance the 3

None of the weapons adequately represent eliteness people so desire

None are challenging to acquire anymore and will be even less so at lvl 99


They just need w/e new endgame is released to have new ultimate weapon paths..

have upgrades via magian trials for relic / mythic / empyrean to 99.. not to make them the best.. but still make them all decent second place pure DPS weapons

any balancing they try to do will just cause more anguish because there is no way to make 3 weapons of exactly equal stature.

The thing to keep in mind here is that Square made Emps so easy to get that they can simple take the mindset that if your sad about the state of your relic just go get an Emp and be happy. As for that guy posting the relic WS doing low numbers, seen that on emps too, I think it happens when you miss the WS but the 2nd attack hits (from dual wield offhand weapon)

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Community Team Representatives please give attention and review.

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Square only take notice of the JP forums, better off trying to translate it (with babelfish or something) and put it there if you seriously want something read. Any other forum apart from the JP ones are just for spamming, they serve no use in terms of devs reading any of it.

Parity between mythic, relic and empyrean weapons would be nice but a current generation development cycle would be nicer. I want to see this thread crammed down a developer's throat so they understand that adding dumb new crap every 3 months isn't going to win over as many people as hard scrutiny and reworking of old and broken systems.

Well since magian trials make more powerful versions think of some way to get the 75 relic or mythic ezier. I couldnt say how thats a whole other topic.

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Originally Posted by Catsby

Parity between mythic, relic and empyrean weapons would be nice but a current generation development cycle would be nicer. I want to see this thread crammed down a developer's throat so they understand that adding dumb new crap every 3 months isn't going to win over as many people as hard scrutiny and reworking of old and broken systems.

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Agreed...tho it seems they're making relic aquisition easier by allowing dynamis entrance daily along with the one time KI aquisition purchase. As far as Mythics are concerned, the only thing i think needs fixing is the alex requirement. 10k or even 5k please is far more reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Runespider

Square only take notice of the JP forums, better off trying to translate it (with babelfish or something) and put it there if you seriously want something read. Any other forum apart from the JP ones are just for spamming, they serve no use in terms of devs reading any of it.

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The jp threads listed are from these forums, I had to use the bit shortened service since the jp character in url's was not working when posting.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...B7%A9%E5%92%8C

sorry just testing, works for me ><

try copy and paste in firefox

Dear SE, I'm tired of being jealous of emp weapons. Please change this.

Love,
Relic holdrs