Legion still sucks.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Remember all those people who were like "I want a challenge. I don't care about the drops. I just want a challenge. FFXI is too easy now..."

Thanks guys. Have fun.

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What they should have said was, "Everyone has good gear now and I don't feel special. Please make events that only people who derive too much pride from having better gear in ffxi will do." since that's what they really meant. Maybe SE would have ignored that.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

What they should have said was, "Everyone has good gear now and I don't feel special. Please make events that only people who derive too much pride from having better gear in ffxi will do." since that's what they really meant. Maybe SE would have ignored that.

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No MMO will make it far if there isn't pride in getting uberleet awesome gear that acts as elevated status. It's one of the major drawing points to MMOs. The trials and tribulations, the stories, the drama, and the legends are what make an MMO good, once you take that away, you've got a dying game. MMOs are mainly interactive soap operas. Once you take the drama out, it's just a lame waste of time.

There's no epic feats in this game anymore. SE is trying to cater to easymode play, and when they try to go back to give actual MMOers a challenge, they don't know how to do it, so they just slap an unrealistic time limit on the event. This is a really shitty practice too.

No one's cleared Neo-Nyzul without third party apps, because of randomness and a retarded time limit. No one will clear Legion without PD/Embrava rotations and 2hr zergs, because of the retarded time limit.

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Originally Posted by Return1

There's no epic feats in this game anymore. SE is trying to cater to easymode play, and when they try to go back to give actual MMOers a challenge, they don't know how to do it, so they just slap an unrealistic time limit on the event. This is a really shitty practice too.

No one's cleared Neo-Nyzul without third party apps, because of randomness and a retarded time limit. No one will clear Legion without PD/Embrava rotations and 2hr zergs, because of the retarded time limit.

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You know, this kinda reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Lisa goes to military school because she finds she isn't being challenged at Springfield Elementary. When she finds out has to do the hand-over-hand climb over the Eliminator, she tells Bart that it's too hard. Bart replies that he thought she wanted a challenge and she says, "Duh, a challenge I could do!"

You complaining about easy mode and then whining about what you consider an "unfair" challenge (which is what you're basically doing) is just lolworthy.

I think the only real problem with legion is that there's little incentive to actually do it. I'm inclined to say throw some OMGuberLEETJesusAllahBuddha loot in and keep the difficulty just as it is and just let people throw themselves at it again and again. Maybe then I wouldn't have to put up with with people constantly sneering that this game is easysauce.

They didn't ask her to climb the eliminator in 30 seconds with 500lbs strapped to her waist. There's a difference between a challenge and impossible. It's impossible to clear Neo-Nyzul without third party tools and outside communication. To my knowledge no one has fully cleared any Legion run. Not because the mobs are hard, but because there's an unrealistic time limit.

There's a difference, and that's why your statement makes you look like a jackass, jackass.

If legion was what it should of been it would of worked imo

and by that all the gear (good stuff too) was buy able by points then everyone would enter and it would cater to both the elitliest and casual gamers. (WIN OR LOSE you'd get closer to your Personal goal and iy could be as difficult as SE wanted it to be).

The clears could add KI that reduce cost or give access to higher scoring teirs.

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Originally Posted by Return1

No MMO will make it far if there isn't pride in getting uberleet awesome gear that acts as elevated status.

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You're maybe half right. People need something to aspire too but most players will never reach the elite level and they know it so by your logic they would all just quit. Most people just play to achieve their personal goals. The problem comes in when these goals become unrealistic and beyond what a casual to moderately hardcore player is willing to put themselves through. See legion, neo-nyzul, level 110 crafting, stage 2 relic weapons, getting that perfect augment on your adaberk, paying 40 mil for new -1 abj gear, ect. If people want these tasks to exist just so they can feel better about themselves then they need zoloft a lot more than they need "Challenging" ffxi content.

Don't really see how by his logic they would quit. Just because there are existing elite levels that Player X knows he cannot get to (e.g., idiotic things like stage 2 relic weapons), does not mean automatically mean that he will quit because of that knowledge. Nor would it prevent Player X from trying to elevate his status up to that point. Hell, I know players who think they are hot shit, elevated status, etc. just because they bought 5 Umbral Marrows from a bazaar in PJ...

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Originally Posted by Return1

No MMO will make it far if there isn't pride in getting uberleet awesome gear that acts as elevated status. It's one of the major drawing points to MMOs. The trials and tribulations, the stories, the drama, and the legends are what make an MMO good, once you take that away, you've got a dying game. MMOs are mainly interactive soap operas. Once you take the drama out, it's just a lame waste of time.

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And all SE had to do was reward amazing pieces of gear at the highest point values that'd keep the hardcores grinding for the next 3-4 months while the casual/less hardcore individuals shot for realistic rewards that would be set to moderately high or low point values to make Legion something everyone could do.

You want pride? Obtain all 5 pieces of the Badass set of Badassery from the top Legion points or snag yourself some glowing weapons from the top tier point drops or risk it all in the crap droprates off mobs.

This idea that things must be either stupid 'brew-easy' or 'Brava all the things!' is a false argument because things can have sliding difficulty levels or cater to different types of people. The main argument to levy against SE at this point is just not giving a shit about what gets put out so long as they have something to show come update time. You'd think in an even just recycling old HNMs you'd get some gear themed from those former HNMs or just better versions of what the old HNMs used to drop like:

-From the makers of OAT2-3x Ridill - an OAT2-6x RidillX!
-Ixion dropped 12% Movement shoes, Ixion mk. II drops 18% movement shoes.
-Alicorn drops a light aura spear since it's signature attack is... a giant light spear.
-Vampyr drops a weapon that steals HP/MP/TP.

Weapons that aren't only good but also say to others "yo, you beat Cerberus II and here is your awesome badass flaming Algol variant!" It's the little things like this that'd grab your old endgamer wanting the "new Ridillz" right up the line to people joining runs just cause because the event is fun.

Of course though SE can't be arsed to make anything appealing so you end up with garbage like Triplus Subligar. Hold the phone, we're gonna send 36 people into a zone for gear with:

DEF:40 Accuracy-20 Attack-10 "Subtle Blow"+10"Triple Attack"+5%

or

Damage taken +2% Enemy critical hit rate -5%

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...g-laughing.gif

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You're maybe half right. People need something to aspire too but most players will never reach the elite level and they know it so by your logic they would all just quit. Most people just play to achieve their personal goals. The problem comes in when these goals become unrealistic and beyond what a casual to moderately hardcore player is willing to put themselves through. See legion, neo-nyzul, level 110 crafting, stage 2 relic weapons, getting that perfect augment on your adaberk, paying 40 mil for new -1 abj gear, ect. If people want these tasks to exist just so they can feel better about themselves then they need zoloft a lot more than they need "Challenging" ffxi content.

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That's the thing about personal goals. You get to pick your own goals. There should be different levels of commitment and different levels of achievement. I think there should be epic challenges for those that want to pursue them, why shouldn't there be? Because not everyone can do them, players who find them interesting shouldn't be allowed to have goals that cater to them? Just because some people perceive it as too hard, like an old school relic, doesn't mean it's out of their reach either.

There's also a huge gap between options you listed:

Legion: Currently retarded zerg fest that requires no strategy but PD/Embrava rotations. To my knowledge no one can make a full clear, but people have cleared first waves.

Neo-Nyzul: Not one single person has even whiffed floor 100 without their group using third party tools, dat modding lamps to show order, and out of game communication like skype/ts/vent.

110 Crafting: This is actually reasonably doable and it's a reasonable personal goal you can achieve all by yourself.

Afterglow weapons: These are just ridiculous time sinks and need some adjustments. The mythic one is actually pretty reasonable because of the changes to the zeni system and the fact PW was designed as 75 content. The ADL trial is stupid because he can just decide you're going to die, and it requires other people waste their runs to help you out, unless they're mercing them for you. Empyrean wouldn't be so bad if they increased drop rates by a hefty margin for plates/cinder/dross.

And sparth idk why you're coming off so aggressive when I really agree with you on almost everything.

There needs to be a sliding scale of difficulty. There needs to be a wider range of events for different play styles as well, like there was at 75.

There needs to be a refocus on enemy design as well. The focus of battles and rewards from said battles should be decided by if you can defeat these monsters, not if you can do these tasks with an arbitrary time limit that severely cripples all your options for strategies, demands specific jobs, and forces you to shun less desirable jobs because they don't fit with the ONLY viable strategy.

Not everything is SE's fault either though. Players need to have a paradigm shift as well. Players really have a sense of entitlement today compared to say, 2006. They are entitled to certain things, but they take it way too far these days, thinking that just because they pay for the right to play the game, everything should be theirs regardless of how well they actually play the game. They don't pick a personal goal anymore, they just assume they should have everything.

Players should first pick a role that fits their style of play. Back in the day there were several type of clearly defined players, but these days it's blurred. Are you a social player, just in it for meeting new people? An explorer? A Roleplayer (I know, lolrpfags in and mmoRPG)? Are you a crafter? Do you garden/HELM? Farmer? Endgame player? Leader? A WAR? A MNK? A WHM? A <insertjobhere>? What are you? What is your in game CAREER?

Well, the game shifted towards everyone playing various roles, killed a lot of old roles, merged some together, and changed the playerbase. Many quit and left. Now SE admits they changed to much and unbalanced the game, and they say they want to rebalance it. Now we got people who don't fall into clearly defined roles and everyone thinks they're more important and shouldn't have to pick a role. They need to try and meet SE half way, but SE needs to start be getting their heads out their asses and releasing content they doesn't suck (mostly due to artificial difficulty like time limits and RNG).

Just thought I'd point out at no point was I intending to be aggressive.

Also should point out that 'careers' in this job are finished given the sub75 market is gone, HELM items are practically worthless, crafts to 110 need more gil than a relic and you can't farm the craft items yourself (on some crafts) which is a huge issue. This is a game in its decline phase and things like exploration just don't cut it when most of the base has at the least had some experience with FFXI in the past.

FFXI right now is a game of 'pick your event' and with the choices SE is offering, a failure like Legion severely restricts what people can do and thus harms the long term viability of the game.

Abyssea - Empyrean Weaps/Armor
Dynamis
Walk of Echoes
Magian Trials
Voidwatch
Voidwatch - Provenence Watcher
EXP
Neo-Nyzul
Legion

These are the major choices and two of them present issues for a huge portion of the base.

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Originally Posted by Return1

That's the thing about personal goals. You get to pick your own goals. There should be different levels of commitment and different levels of achievement. I think there should be epic challenges for those that want to pursue them, why shouldn't there be? Because not everyone can do them, players who find them interesting shouldn't be allowed to have goals that cater to them? Just because some people perceive it as too hard, like an old school relic, doesn't mean it's out of their reach either.

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My problem right now is that I don't see much of anything as obtainable, nothing I want anyway, other than maybe Magian trials. I've pretty much gotten what I want out of Abyssea. I can't seem to get anywhere in VW, as I'm well behind the curve and can't seem to find enough people to backtrack and help me get the clears and temps I need. I don't really want or need a relic for the jobs I have. I'm just totally at a loss right now except for the Magian trials which aren't exactly an enjoyable experience. That's my experience in my little corner of the FFXI universe. YMMV and all that.

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There's also a huge gap between options you listed:

Legion: Currently retarded zerg fest that requires no strategy but PD/Embrava rotations. To my knowledge no one can make a full clear, but people have cleared first waves.

Neo-Nyzul: Not one single person has even whiffed floor 100 without their group using third party tools, dat modding lamps to show order, and out of game communication like skype/ts/vent.

110 Crafting: This is actually reasonably doable and it's a reasonable personal goal you can achieve all by yourself.

Afterglow weapons: These are just ridiculous time sinks and need some adjustments. The mythic one is actually pretty reasonable because of the changes to the zeni system and the fact PW was designed as 75 content. The ADL trial is stupid because he can just decide you're going to die, and it requires other people waste their runs to help you out, unless they're mercing them for you. Empyrean wouldn't be so bad if they increased drop rates by a hefty margin for plates/cinder/dross.

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Good analysis of current events. Except for crafting which I find horrendously boring and painful, none of these are accessible for someone like me, and so for anyone like me all this work SE has put in is wasted. The community as I see it in general just doesn't want these sorts of things. Also, and most importantly, it isn't structured in way to do these sorts of events anymore. A small minority are willing and able to perhaps, but it seems as though that's all that's being catered to right now. Where do the rest of us come in? Are we supposed to realign our lives to fit SE's vision of Vana'diel? Shouldn't it be more like the other way around?

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There needs to be a sliding scale of difficulty. There needs to be a wider range of events for different play styles as well, like there was at 75.

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They at least need to ripoff WoW and have Normal and Heroic difficulties for every event and give us casual "dungeons" to go alongside the hardcore "raids" they seem to be fond of.

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Not everything is SE's fault either though. Players need to have a paradigm shift as well. Players really have a sense of entitlement today compared to say, 2006. They are entitled to certain things, but they take it way too far these days, thinking that just because they pay for the right to play the game, everything should be theirs regardless of how well they actually play the game. They don't pick a personal goal anymore, they just assume they should have everything.

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Most players aren't like that. They have no problem having to earn their keep, it's just I think many of us are running out of things we feel we can realistically earn.

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Players should first pick a role that fits their style of play. Back in the day there were several type of clearly defined players, but these days it's blurred. Are you a social player, just in it for meeting new people? An explorer? A Roleplayer (I know, lolrpfags in and mmoRPG)? Are you a crafter? Do you garden/HELM? Farmer? Endgame player? Leader? A WAR? A MNK? A WHM? A <insertjobhere>? What are you? What is your in game CAREER?

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That's true, although my experience pre-Abyssea didn't really involve being allowed to choose what role I wanted to play. In my heart I was and am a MNK and BST. Guess how far I would have gotten in endgame with those roles? I wouldn't even have made it through the application process. Now, though things are better in that regard, except for the ever piss poor job balance (or lack thereof).

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Well, the game shifted towards everyone playing various roles, killed a lot of old roles, merged some together, and changed the playerbase. Many quit and left. Now SE admits they changed to much and unbalanced the game, and they say they want to rebalance it.

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It's never been balanced. Ever. And people have been quitting the whole time the game has existed for one reason or another.

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Now we got people who don't fall into clearly defined roles and everyone thinks they're more important and shouldn't have to pick a role.

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I chose DD! That's mah role. Now what?

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They need to try and meet SE half way, but SE needs to start be getting their heads out their asses and releasing content they doesn't suck (mostly due to artificial difficulty like time limits and RNG).

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I agree with you on the SE part, but I think we players have compromised more than enough. It's SE's turn and it will be for some time to come.

Thank you for clearing that up sparth.

While most helm items are worthless, for harvesting at least, there's a pretty decent market for 100-110 items like Walnuts, Date, Dragon Fruits, and Reishi Mushrooms. AH history on Dates and Walnuts are crap but they bazaar way more in Windurst Waters, and you can probably get more since no one else is supplying them, at least not on my server. Is it profitable? It can be. It's just not the most profitable. Some people do enjoy it though.

People may find crafting horribly boring, but I knew/know people whose only real activity in this game is crafting or farming for crafting. Whatever floats their boat. If you got a craft to 100, I'm pretty sure you can get it to 110 with little to no trouble, at your own pace.

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It's never been balanced. Ever. And people have been quitting the whole time the game has existed for one reason or another.

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There was balance enough to have many roles and an economy that wasn't 100% for the top levels. There was life before maxed levels. And people quit all the time for various reasons, but there hasn't been any other period in the game where so many quit in such a narrow span of time. Abyssea really altered the game on a massive scale that has been bad for it from a larger perspective.

Now if I were to make some suggestions on rebalancing, I'd say add more incentives to CP and IS purchases. The easy to obtain nature of AN and the addition of Voidstones, really got a lot more people doing a dead event like campaign. With some creative uses of CP/IS and the new EXP values for outside zones and books, you could really make it worth people's time to EXP outside and to have participation in parties.

Actually, I have a few ideas that I think are pretty awesome, but since this is getting so far out of the legion subject, I'll just start a new thread.

On Legion:
I truly think that if they simply made the time limit 2 hours, the event would be a real success as is and a boon for linkshell based content. It's a very simple fix. It has some really good rewards amongst the lolworthy trophies, and the difficulty would be perfect if not for the retarded time limit forcing players into a zerg-or-don't-even-bother setup.

And a side not on VW, I think the ticket system will actually be a huge success if they're implementing it how I'm reading it. I'm all for having alternative ways to obtain rare drops for all events as long as they require a title showing you actually participated and the RNG just crapped on you.

I'm not saying there should be 0 "difficult" content. Just saying MMOs can exist without god mode battles and super elite gear that only a few people have. They can certainly exist without content that is unbeatable by 99% of the player base but we seem to agree about legion being terrible so I'll leave it at that.

Let it be a reminder for you guys, if SE cannot even created a good solid 6 person group activities via Neo Nyzul, don't hold your breath about them fixing Legion. That is a disaster in the making. There is no challenge, all they been making is hamster wheel of death for us to run over and over. At the very least they are making effort on Voidwatch, and Walk of Echoes. As for Neo Nyzul, Legion and the upcoming Neo Limbus, Neo Salvage.... just ignore these, give it a year when they finally get to it and actually make it so that you do not need cheat programs or jobs xyz to clear it.

Warning, not on the subject of Legion at all.

I didn't mind the idea of the level shift. The overall goal was for everyone to be able to do everything they already did, in smaller groups. Less group management. But everything needed an overhaul if they were going to do that, and for some reason they didn't think about that. Instead of changing current gear, most of which was at least moderately situationally balanced (Even those +15 mind boots from sky still had at least one use, light bolts or something, right?), they decided to add new, only mildly difficult to obtain gear that came in the form of AF3 that rendered almost all previous content useless. Thats why everyone quit.

Take sky. Leave the bosses the same or roughly the same so they are easier. But change their drops to have a 99 requirement (or start with 80, then 85, etc). Change the stats to still be moderately situationally balanced. Change all the current existing drops to match. People will get over all of a sudden a stack of their gear becoming onwearable for a couple levels. They'll buy some cheap crap to level in.

Dynamis. Feel free to change the flow to make it more interesting. Then, instead of additional upgrades through a moogle, continue the relic storyline. Maybe not so many requirements. Not another 10000 piece or anything, maybe offer a new currency piece from ADL that the goblins wont trade for lesser values (to keep them from becoming instant-relics) in order to buy the upgrade and continue the story. The moogle stuff is super lame, lets be honest. "I know you spent 2 years in a netherworld working to obtain this end-all weapon... But go kill a few spiders. I got a better one in my backpack you can have when you're done."

Salvage. Add a 4th piece to each upgrade. Add new and interesting ways to obtain this last piece. Done. Break everyones 75 "finals", send them all 3 pieces and the materials to the delivery box. Thats just database space. It'd work fine.

Continue mythic quest line for final upgrades. Done.

Just ranting. I hate magian trials. So lame.

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Instead of changing current gear, most of which was at least moderately situationally balanced (Even those +15 mind boots from sky still had at least one use, light bolts or something, right?), they decided to add new, only mildly difficult to obtain gear that came in the form of AF3 that rendered almost all previous content useless. Thats why everyone quit.

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Umm no, just ... no. Not even close.

People quit because the develop team stopped caring after their A team got sent to FFXIV which left FFXI with a skeleton crew and an absolutely HORRIBLE guy calling the shots. During Abyssea era there was an actual increase in subscriptions, people came back and started playing again because the game moved forward, newer gear, newer things to do, more shinys and so forth. There were actual upgrades, not stuff that was inferior to the gear you got in 2005. People want better gear, they want better content, they want more stuff not sidegrades. Look at legion, prime example of a failed event. Entirety too hard for the crap it drops, crap gear that is sidegrade / downgrade from what we got in abyssea. Magian's is fine for upgrading gear and for providing a baseline set of gear that everyone can obtain without needing to give oral ministrations to a LS leader.

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During Abyssea era there was an actual increase in subscriptions

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That's actually a false. A shit ton of people quit because of the server mergers and 99cap announcement. Then handful rage quit over the gayness of abyssea (I only get to play 30minutes once per day WTF I QUIT!!1!). Subs picked up after Abyssea started to be understood, but after that, people have steadily left BECAUSE of abyssea.

Obsoleted years of hard work for many. Killed most big linkshells. Removed most of the teamwork and group dynamics people liked. Dumbed down playing. Could be blown through in a week or two and leave you with nothing to do. No worthwhile alternatives.

SE said they considered Abyssea a flop because it unbalanced things. Translation: People are jumping shit left and right because we pretty much obsoleted all endgame but one thing, and now people have nothing to do.

Now we get shit like Voidwatch, which is meant to take up more time than any other event ever, with the lowest drop rates the game has ever seen in an attempt to keep the addicted busy.

What's really sad is that Legion and Neo-Nyzul would have been great boons to this game if not for the stupid time limits on them.

People have been steadily leaving throughout the years before and after abyssea was released, this is nothing new nor is it exclusive to Abyssea.

Why is this conversation still going on again?

So, what method of magical divination are people on both side of this pointless argument using to objectively determine the total number of people who left, exactly when they left, and why they left?

Honest question. I'll be out and about for a week, and I'm trying to determine if I should pack stuff for inclement weather or not. I just can't get a definitive reading from slaughtering these goats that I might gaze upon their blood splatter and entrails, and worse yet, I'm running out of places to store disemboweled goat corpses and buckets of mildly mystic goat blood.

Back to the topic on topic, I agree that Legion (and Neo-Nyzul Isle) are ridiculous with the current time limits. Legion briefly seemed fixed by the HP reduction adjustment, but after one or two groups announcing they had cleared it, I haven't heard much. More waves apparently just keep appearing after a "clear", so I doubt even the few groups who clear the Legion bosses at present would be unhappy with a longer time limit.

On one hand, most end-game content since at least Treasures of Aht Urhgan stuff has started out fairly unrewarding for one reason or another but improved with time. I assume they're fiddling with Legion somehow as I'm typing this, but...

On the other hand, their adjustments to Voidwatch have been akin to propping up a corpse with two sticks and announcing to a six-year-old child that "Grandpa is all better!" They barely even acknowledge the reason it's unrewarding, a reason which has nothing to do with the difficulty of the monsters. Also, Uncle Bertrand, I knew that old people don't smell that bad even when I was six.

I'm not sure how pessimistic to feel. Someone help me feel the correct amount of pessimism.

I don't see what Abyssea itself has to do with the change of attitude that occurred during the time that Abyssea was the centerpiece content of this game. We can wage verbal war over what Abyssea did to XI but there was a distinct change in company attitude that led to speedy fixes, player-centered problem resolution and steady improvements that ceased once Heroes concluded and we got to Voidwatch.

At one point I started to say to myself "wow this is overkill on the issue fixes" and that may have been true or false but what mattered is that SE was doing something and doing it quickly.

If that same behavior were displayed with Legion or Voidwatch, this thread wouldn't exist and people would be enjoying the content rather than picking it apart or ignoring it.

Abyssea is the crack that keeps on giving, made the game super fun to solo, trio, small groups or dual box. Gives you tons of stuffs to do. Great resources of gill. Overall grade A+++ in terms of crack addictiveness, accessibility, and fun. Big LS dead right and left? Good riddance!!! Never really like big end game LS of yesteryears where only small handful of members get special treatment, and if you don't like to brown nosing, you get zero. I like what abyssea did, you can log in, go play, absolutely ZERO waiting on stuffs you want to do. Unless you want to do post abyssea content, in which case wait for shouts, and pray your jobs is XYZ or sorry, party is full, or go back level xyz jobs and not some LOLs jobs.

People complained that abyssea breed lazy players.... I am sorry, don't blame the content, blame the people, lazy players are just that, lazy people who never take the time or effort to try learning the intricacy of their jobs - no matter how fast or slow they get their level. They exist in 2003 and they still exist now.

I've never said Abyssea is the reason people are bad at the game. I'm just saying it helps facilitate it. Why?

It removes a lot of the danger and learning you had before.

It's extremely beneficial to leech or accept gimps into your group. With the way groups for exp are set up you'll benefit more by adding that gimp to your group than by competing with them. Also, you can leech millions of gil a day in Abyssea EXP groups. Just show up and get into a giant alliance as a low level job with empty space in your inventory. Each cruor is just over 2.6 gil each, and you can AH or NPC the crap load of drops you'll wake up to.

By making it beneficial for players to team up with competition and adding superpowers that matter far more than your gear ever did, Abyssea has helped gimps become far more prevalent since people no longer boot them from parties en masse and they aren't hindered as much by their own crappiness.

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Big LS dead right and left? Good riddance!!! Never really like big end game LS of yesteryears where only small handful of members get special treatment, and if you don't like to brown nosing, you get zero.

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Spoken like a person that either had a crappy ls or couldn't get into a decent one. Just curious as to your gear, as from what I've seen in your posts around this forum, you seem to hate people having a little something I like to call "Reasonable standards".

I don't hate reasonable standards, I do not care about elitism however, it is a game, you play for fun. Again, blame the player mentality. As for danger and learning, old xp party is pretty much doing the same. You don't really learn much via abyssea alliance or normal xp party of the old yesteryear. Their main goals is to get xp as fast as possible in the most efficient ways. SE helped us with abyssea and pretty much removed that one hamster wheel. You learn a lot more about your jobs by doing a low man NMs contents, since you really have to understand your job well to survive and need to work together as a group. There is a huge difference with well run small groups vs a group with a bunch of clueless people. Big LS are dead because the game has changed, you no longer need them for the majority of the contents. I am happy where the game is going, it is not perfect, there are a few issues, but overall hopefully going to the right direction. The ability to log and play with minimal waiting is the best thing that ever happened to this game. And the various options to do things are amazing now. Old school play style never really go away to be honest, but the majority of players pretty much shun it and go with the new school, but there are others who still want the good old days. Well, they are still here, just find others who have similar needs. OPTIONS, FREEDOM, LOG and PLAY :) no more waiting.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Abyssea is the crack that keeps on giving, made the game super fun to solo, trio, small groups or dual box. Gives you tons of stuffs to do. Great resources of gill. Overall grade A+++ in terms of crack addictiveness, accessibility, and fun. Big LS dead right and left? Good riddance!!! Never really like big end game LS of yesteryears where only small handful of members get special treatment, and if you don't like to brown nosing, you get zero. \

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Grossly exaggerated, and actually dangerously discriminatory in its rationale: "LS A had shitty rules that people could bypass through brown-nosing or sexual favors. Therefore, all LSs have shitty rules that people can bypass through brown-nosing or sexual favors." Strange to see this argument echoed in 2012.

That being said, I agree that Abyssea was a great injection of gameplay for FFXI, but after awhile even that great event gets boring and people want to move on to different things. There have been times during Abyssea activities that I literally have found my eyes fluttering down to close out of boredom since the content is so toothlessly easy now.

Not all LSs are bad, but in general they always have their own little groups of people who are higher in the food chain than everyone else. No waiting apply mostly to abyssea contents, all the post abyssea ones require some sort of waiting unless you have a LS that do weekly void watch where they only add 6-8 people as needed etc.. And yeah once you get tired with Abyssea, there are those other options of new activities, with very low drop rates on gears, designed to keep you spinning the wheel over and over. Voidwatch is not as bad though and they are improving it with each updates, more so than Neo Nyzul and Legion.

Fair enough. See, it's only when people talk in absolutes that makes me cringe. I mostly agree with your last post though. Although even in my LS, while there are a few more popular or skillful players with the shell, the points system is blind to it and treats everyone equally.

I think the game now has more options than before. There are enough contents for small or large Ls to do. A tons of stuffs for hardcore or casual players to consume. Tons of magian trials to do. Just so many contents, while not all are great, at the very least they still update and improve some of them with each updates. At the end of the day, people need to stop blaming too much on the game, yeah it can add to the cause, but most of the problems are caused by the player base. Big LS die because people get tired of waiting, or members jump LS when they don't see their needs being met, it's people problem. If you happen to be in one where such problems don't exist, then congratulations, since those LS still do exist, though not that many anymore.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Some of the lower-wave items are indeed stinky ;; Looks like they backloaded all the good stuff in the final waves and final chamber.

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Still dreaming on legion gear not sucking I see.

@ sparthos

It's funny, I've said that legion sucked the day it was released ( was known to suck the day it was released on the test server), I've also said that its drops where garbage one week after release by deduction. It's ok it's going to be Nyzul III. I'm surprised noone mentions how Nyzul is an entire pile of crap too, maybe cos the drop arent awful ; you never see anyone do Nyzul, I swear I see more people doing assault. Gathering 6 persons to win the lottery and hope you roll 9 10 times in a row, hoping those people aren't too bad and that the NM drops what you want and that you don't get outlotted .. Oh wait I think I know why nobody wants to do it !

Ok now look at legion, it's the same crap but you need 3x more, you need to outlot 3x more people, for a gear 3xworse, and this time you need specific jobs like an army of SMN (also called it one week after release :D) .. and you have to pay for it lol !

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

-If you're going to require 18 people then make the rewards worth it. Heavy Metal, Currency, Rare synthesis materials amongst other valuable loot or no one will care. This event has been dead since day1.

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Lol, atcually it was dead by the time the first person entered it on the test server and insta died, then it died a little more when they "organized" a couple of runs on the test server.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Of course though SE can't be arsed to make anything appealing so you end up with garbage like Triplus Subligar. Hold the phone, we're gonna send 36 people into a zone for gear with:

DEF:40 Accuracy-20 Attack-10 "Subtle Blow"+10"Triple Attack"+5%

or

Damage taken +2% Enemy critical hit rate -5%

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Sorry for being late to the thread, but this confirms my initial thought that legion is so cheaply designed that they made it in an afternoon. One more stuff that people will forget just like

- VNM
- Walk of echoes (anyone remember? lol)
- The evolith system
- Nyzul II
- and now legion

I'm probably forgetting some

edit : ok anyone remember the NM system from the Past Beastmen HQs ? The pixies fight from several past zones where you have 5 chances per day at augmenting a weapon that a best equals the best AH gear ? Hey guyz let's put a gob outside of Jeuno that randomly gives you crap with 99.99% chance ?

as far as battle content goes, add:

-fomor NMs ( than spawn in [S] dungeons) but I guess that's linked to evolith
-FoV and ASA/MKD/etc augments (so random..)
-Sea NMs that they always refused to touch
- GoV (didnt see a lot of complaints here, but the only time I tried it you had to kill mobs with 15mn repop timer for hours). GoV is good for one thing: speed power-levelling a job 1~30 in 2hours.

The things they did "ok" after abyssea was: dynamis, fafnir/dadamantoise/behemoth, ZNM (the zeni update), sky augments, VW.

I think the only thing they did right is dynamis, but even dynamis is unbalance, like only 4 zones get used pretty much or the proc system that sucks. But as far as fun/reward/ratio goes it wins hands done ([planable]relic for everyone or money for everyone even solo)

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Still dreaming on legion gear not sucking I see.

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Still misinterpreting what people say and talking in absolutes I see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Grossly exaggerated, and actually dangerously discriminatory in its rationale: "LS A had shitty rules that people could bypass through brown-nosing or sexual favors. Therefore, all LSs have shitty rules that people can bypass through brown-nosing or sexual favors." Strange to see this argument echoed in 2012.

That being said, I agree that Abyssea was a great injection of gameplay for FFXI, but after awhile even that great event gets boring and people want to move on to different things. There have been times during Abyssea activities that I literally have found my eyes fluttering down to close out of boredom since the content is so toothlessly easy now.

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Honestly people give abyssea the "easy mode" but do they really know what their saying? We out leveled Abyssea so fast that we never actually played it at it's designed difficulty. Visions was for level 80 players, Scars for 85 and hero's for 90. Abyssite of Discernment did not exist for the first two expansions which made "procing" vastly more difficult. 200K brews didn't exist until after you beat Shinryu which is supposed to be one of the "final" boss's. Apadamek is a PITA at level 99, at 90 he was one hell of an annoying NM, so annoying that you just brewed him rather then deal with his BS. We still brew him at 99 so we don't have to deal with his aoe moves. So yeah abyssea is "easy" now for the same reasons AV because "easy" once they raised the level cap. If someone wants "challenge' then go and fight Apadamek with a group of 6 and no Atma / Crour / Brews buffs and tell us about how "easy mode" it was.

Mahoro I know there are a few good EGLS's out there, but the vast majority of them exist for the purpose of enriching and gearing their leaders and leaders friends. If your not inside the "in crowd" then your not getting priority on any gear and will be last in line for everything. Once the leader and his friends have acquired everything they want, suddenly they'll have the desire for a "break" or whatever and the shell will dissolve.

And I understand those LS existed, but I would venture to say they were never the "vast" majority (which by the way you underlined it, you likely mean 75% or more). And the ones that have actually survived to 2012 have survived in great part because they are not like that, or if some are, they are in the vast minority now.

Re Abyssea: I completely agree. I actually preferred it at level 80 cap. In fact, my favorite was Visions, before the RR/Minikin dozefests began (speaking from a WHM lv. 90 perspective btw). I am not sure we can say with certainty whether Abyssea's "designed difficulty" was lv 80 cap, or whether they always intended to introduce the overpowered Atma and Abyssites. You are assuming content that was introduced in installments was also designed in installments. I do know it is possible not to design an event as "challenging" as Legion or as arbitrary as Neo-Nyzul, yet not as neutered as Abyssea became at lv. 90.

I am aware I could render any event as challenging as I want it by level syncing or going without buffs. However, that does not ultimately serve as an excuse for designing it as such. As for not doing Abyssea with atma, I already do. It's essentially called Voidwatch. Where the atmacite aren't nearly as good as the atma, yet I have most of the temps from Abyssea.

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I think the only thing they did right is dynamis, but even dynamis is unbalance, like only 4 zones get used pretty much or the proc system that sucks. But as far as fun/reward/ratio goes it wins hands done ([planable]relic for everyone or money for everyone even solo)

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I'd say Limbus was their best event. Tiered progression, some nice upgrades for almost everyone, coins that could be split up and used to purchased some strong gear, and Homam was awesome (Nashira had some good pieces but the comparison isn't even close).

I really hope they don't mess up New Limbus.


As for old EGLSs being bad. Most of them got big because they were good and got people stuff. Most people who claim their EGLS experience was crap is simply because they probably chose very wrong. One of those "we accept anyone stupid enough to join" shells instead of a shell with a proper list of requirements.

Dynamis balanced?

Yes, the event is far superior to the old style dungeon crawl in terms of individual rewards but in terms of things to do outside farm currency? The NMs are all over the place in difficulty. You have alot of Arch NMs that were useless from day 1, Arch DL and Diabolos' both involve zerging for your life (terror and deathspam lol), anything outside JA procs are a waste of time, EXP trials for augmented gear totally shit on certain jobs and the arch boss rewards are about deep as a kiddie pool.

Issues of congestion in COP zones have been met with no changes leaving cities completely desolate outside the odd flag run. Relics have gotten easier but the new content in Dynamis is largely trash.

Also, Abyssea with a few things scaled back would be exactly the challenge everyone desires but believes could only exist without Abyssea. The devs are fools for simply throwing away an idea that worked simply because it got out of hand towards the tail end of the expansion.

Limit things to one Atma, drop the cruor buff potency, leave brews at 2m cruor per use, keep the ??? pop NMs, maintain the key item and treasure system, require more items for the magian trial rewards, randomize procs and you'd have an event that completely blows anything away we've got since Heroes.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

I'm not sure how pessimistic to feel. Someone help me feel the correct amount of pessimism.

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you could always be a career DRK asking for escape.

This event is only for the more High elite player base.

For success in legion you need something only 5% of the player base have.

Not is enough have good gear
Not is enough play Well your job.
Not is enough have knowedge.

This 3 things are only a part of what is necesary. For success in legion you need 18 or 36 players EXCELING in their jobs.

Elite players show they are the kings "Playing". When i mean playing. Not in a forum shuting mouths, not in jueno standing with Shiny gear, not playing "Pretty". I repeat you need show you EXCEL your job.

DDS have years parsing their events and doing MASSIVE damage in every event they play. You need speed, timing and brain for excel using DD job. Not everyone can be a Elite DD.

Healers with bionic fast fingers and give a total calm when you know x person is your healer.

Dedicated Tanks give calm the entire ally.


Probably with the Legion nerf then this event will become more accesible for majority the player base.

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Originally Posted by CrAZYVIC

This event is only for the more High elite player base.

For success in legion you need something only 5% of the player base have.

Not is enough have good gear
Not is enough play Well your job.
Not is enough have knowedge.

This 3 things are only a part of what is necesary. For success in legion you need 18 or 36 players EXCELING in their jobs.

Elite players show they are the kings "Playing". When i mean playing. Not in a forum shuting mouths, not in jueno standing with Shiny gear, not playing "Pretty". I repeat you need show you EXCEL your job.

DDS have years parsing their events and doing MASSIVE damage in every event they play. You need speed, timing and brain for excel using DD job. Not everyone can be a Elite DD.

Healers with bionic fast fingers and give a total calm when you know x person is your healer.

Dedicated Tanks give calm the entire ally.


Probably with the Legion nerf then this event will become more accesible for majority the player base.

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what the? i can't.