Small Request to Raise Dagger's Base Damage a tad.

And as expected, we agree on 99% of thf stuff. All of the points about enmity being broken, TH being very hit or miss (ie you need it and its super valuable, or its 100% useless) etc are entirely true. The other 'aspects' of thf are broke. I doubt you will find many thf that feel their contributions in non-DD ways are very robust at the moment regarding large personnel events (VW etc).

Im not saying thf has no problems. It does. And there need to be some very strong adjustments made to core game systems like enmity if they want thf to focus on that system, otherwise they should scrap the idea of enmity management and take thf somewhere else. Thats a whole other conversation.

I have complaints about thf. Damage isnt one of them. I pull my weight with the big boys and when i Thf/War they better be on their A-game or get trounced by lolThf and should feel ashamed. I do not see thfs current damage standing as anything to be embarassed about or needs 'fixing'. How much damage is enough? Everyones opinion is different, but i say we have 'enough'. Once the saveTP nerf hits, I will be quite content on my ability to put out damage with the rest of the DDs. DW3 was frankly all the upgrade to Potential Damage i ever wanted. An enhancement like "SA works from any side" wouldnt increase actual damage potential, so there is still room to expand on the bully concept because it makes SA less frustrating without making any BARANCE issues on damage or whatnot. But as far as raw power increases, DW3 was it for me combined with a toning down of 2handers WS frequency which was frankly getting really out of hand with 40-60-80 TP returns I can get on drg and rng.

Thf has problems and, on most of you other ideas, i think you got something. I just dont feel that damage is the answer to those issues anymore than a sword boost would fix rdm functions or a sword boost would make pld tanking more viable. Similarly I dont see how more damage fixes a job with 'hate control' in a game that doesnt need it or TH when most of the events now it has, literally, no effect. Im fine with thfs current damage level. I am not fine with other poor mechanics of the job so I cant get behind a damage buff I dont think we need when we have bigger fish to fry.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

VW is ending

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Theres still 1-2 more Voidwatch updates coming. and just because they stop adding to it doesn't mean suddenly the gear from it is going to stop being useful. Legion is going to be something that brings some light to TH. How much is up for grabs.

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and it's going back to drop rates so TH will be needed

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Mmmm, The only 2 Endgame events right now are Voidwatch, and Neo-Nyzul. Voidwatch TH is useless, Neo-Nyzul, With the upcoming update, is going to make THF a giant liability. Why bring a THF and risk slow kill speed and only hitting floor 80, When you can replace it with a real DD or BRD/COR and shoot for Floor 100 and have 100% Chance at a floor 100 Piece with our without THF?

Even for groups who shoot for Floor 80, It'd be more useful to have your Support job come /THF Than it would be to bring an actual THF.

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whether only a small increase or not it's still an increase.

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An increase the majority of players realize is not worth wasting a space for THF that could have been a Stronger DD, or a BRD/THF or some support job. Which is the right realization.

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That said TH4+ needs to receive a bigger increase especially 9+ but not in the form of increased damage.

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I'd agree, But it'd be like agreeing that our Sun needs to stop rising. SE will never adjust TH to be more useful than some mysterious effect they won't explain to us. Though i wouldn't object it, and in fact would welcome it. but that wouldn't solve the problem that THF is useless for any event where TH isn't useful, Which is most of the current endgame scene.

MOAR TH isn't the solution to fix THF, It'd just be more of the same, and never really fix the core problem of the job. It would be a nice step in the staircase i mentioned earlier though.

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I have complaints about thf. Damage isnt one of them. I pull my weight with the big boys and when i Thf/War they better be on their A-game or get trounced by lolThf and should feel ashamed

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I out DD pretty much every pick-up DD i do voidwatch with, Generally Parsing 1st or 2nd even when I'm not in the BRD/COR party because I can play the job, and most people are idiots.

But when i combat a real WAR, i get stomped lol. Still, With Save TP being nerfed I'm sure they'll go from 30% to 25% and i might get bumped up 4% in the mean while...

IDK, I just always felt like THF should be a combination of a few things that make it great, including DD. If THF has nothing else for it as a DD, It should have Spike Damage. We don't even have that, a good WAR can spike 2x Higher with an Ukko's than a Good THF could with any WS they have, with SA and TA.

THF WS could use a serious Boost at the very least. Or SA and TA need to be adjusted to have a strong effect on WS. Maybe a JT level 95+, Or even Merited That gives a 15% Boost to Attack and WS Damage when stacked with the next SA or TA. Seems like a lot, But Its not. Spike Damage once per minute isn't as amazing as it used to be. Most DD can pump our Insane numbers without relying on a 1min timer.

Theres so much that could be done to THF, It'd take forever to talk about it. Theres a lot we need to fix about the job, Hopefully SE Addresses the fact TH is becoming more obsolete as time passes.

Id like to pretend that as TH usefulness is lessened, the reason why we didnt get subtle blow "Thf already has TH so we decided not to give thf SB in combination with DW" also wanes. Im tired of the "Thf has TH so you cant have nice things" BARANCE SE has gone for lately. I kinda wish TH gets even more useless if it means it will stop being a roadblock to enhancing the job in active (as opposed to a passive TH) ways.

But this is SE, so ill get my head out of the clouds :P

Ill need to start parsing thf more often, but so far, i havent really been trounced badly on thf even by 'real' players, but ive been mostly on drg lately living up my flashy mythic :P Ill give thf a go a little more often against the guys I compare my super drg against and see if I just have a rosy memory or if im actually doin as well as i think i am.

I gotta say though, culverin last stand builds on Thf/War are REALLY impressive. Ive beaten more than a couple 'good' DDs in VW using that. It fixes our weak WS issue when you can plast off a culverin/cannon shell powered last stand without the need for SATA whenever you want from any angle, or even from range :P But thats a niche (albeit expensive) build I made because it sounded fun, and boy is it xD

I usually parse top 3 In Voidwatch Pick up groups, Even against Ukon Wars, Made me pretty happy. but then i parsed myself against a real DD on Ig-Alima. 2 WAR From my LS, They both parsed around 28%, I parsed about 8%, Sure, i came in 3rd, But still. The power difference was noticeable.

Then again they were in the DD party (COR/BRD buffs), and i wasn't... and Ig-alima is particularly annoying, but still!

Just shows what a real good Fully buffed WAR can do against an unbuffed THF :p

I do see the merit for the want to increase damage on dagger based weapons. For a job that is about swinging (mostly) as their main source of damage, a buff to dps would be the acceptable route. Higher base dmg, higher critical damage, higher wses (to manage hate) =win.

I don't play thf btw, but this thread is probably the most intelligently thought out one I've seen so far. Very good arguments for the merits for this increase. And great ideas when it comes to new enmity tools as well as how to make TH useful for events that don't have drop rates affected by them.

I would really love to know exactly how TH works though. Maybe a dev will release some info soon.

We don't need it lol. We do enough with all the delay down and double/triple attack we get.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Id like to pretend that as TH usefulness is lessened, the reason why we didnt get subtle blow "Thf already has TH so we decided not to give thf SB in combination with DW" also wanes. Im tired of the "Thf has TH so you cant have nice things" BARANCE SE has gone for lately. I kinda wish TH gets even more useless if it means it will stop being a roadblock to enhancing the job in active (as opposed to a passive TH) ways.

But this is SE, so ill get my head out of the clouds :P

Ill need to start parsing thf more often, but so far, i havent really been trounced badly on thf even by 'real' players, but ive been mostly on drg lately living up my flashy mythic :P Ill give thf a go a little more often against the guys I compare my super drg against and see if I just have a rosy memory or if im actually doin as well as i think i am.

I gotta say though, culverin last stand builds on Thf/War are REALLY impressive. Ive beaten more than a couple 'good' DDs in VW using that. It fixes our weak WS issue when you can plast off a culverin/cannon shell powered last stand without the need for SATA whenever you want from any angle, or even from range :P But thats a niche (albeit expensive) build I made because it sounded fun, and boy is it xD

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Thf does need some damage boosts or something lol. DNC just poops all over thf damage and I have proven that through killspeed in a month of dynamis lol. If they could get a little bit more triple attack or something >.<

thf is already the job that multi hits the most. Adding more triple attack won't really help unless it's something meaningful, and given our history we will never have something like that. A recent example i can think of is triple attack damage. A very interesting stat for us, but still, SE keeps giving us stuff with silly values (3%, 2%).

Dancer? My attack speed on dancer makes thf look just silly. Thf i think needs just weaponskill damage bonus or something to encourage using stacked ws.

I like this idea, but don't think it's the best idea. I think there could be more creative ways for Dagger users to produce additional damage.

Why not, give the thieves and dancers the ability to make me bleed.

UP WITH DAGGERS.

I also don't have any issues with THF dmg and I still have plenty of gear yet to acquire. You just might be doing it wrong?

Also never have an issue getting to come on THF, despite having multiple other jobs at 99 from mages to 2h dd to tanks.

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Originally Posted by Sfchakan

I also don't have any issues with THF dmg and I still have plenty of gear yet to acquire. You just might be doing it wrong?

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That wasn't really the point of this thread. And define "not having an issue". Are you saying your THF is on par with your WAR?

All I'm reading is "make my job on par with DDing with every other job, yet get TH, hate tools, superior evasion, and moar! GIMME MOAR!"

Come on guys, get real. Playing THF is the best it's been for years.

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Originally Posted by Sfchakan

All I'm reading is [..]

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I see, so the mistake is on your end. Learn to read, then come back to comment.

More damage on daggers would help, but I think that a greater adjustment to one-handed weapons and dual wield needs to be looked into to become more competitive with two-handed weapons. I am not saying that dual-wield should be more powerful than two-handed weapons like the olden days, but they could be more balanced equalized in strength so that dual-wielding is close to on-par with two-handed weapons.

Oh, I can see your problem. You're an idiot. Lets review, shall we?

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Originally Posted by Sfchakan

All I'm reading is "make my job on par with DDing with every other job

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Nowhere, In any post in this thread, have those words been uttered or even hinted at by anyone but you. In fact, In many posts, Its distinctly spelled out that that is not what is wanted.

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yet get TH

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Pointless. But for arguments Sake. About 14 Jobs can get TH3, BST has TH3 now (Soon to be TH1~2), and TH7+, Which is obtainable by THF, is such an indistinguishably low difference between TH3, what you can obtain from subjob + item, Is completely meaningless as a valid argument for the job.

While TH7 does have a difference over TH3, Its value is so low its almost unnoticeable, to the point, Its just not special anymore. it would be like if WAR got Berserk with 25.0003% Attack Boost, and DRK only had 25%, then DRK Get Accuracy+15% Added to last resort, and you say "God WAR, You guys get .00003% More attack, Shut up"

Yes, Thats my hypothetical difference in drop rate from TH7, and TH4, 0.0003%.

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hate tools

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............. What? If you're talking about Coll/Acomp and Trick Attack, euthanize yourself. When has anyone needed those ever in any endgame event ever created since 75 cap? Hate cap is so easily reached its a laughable band-aid placed on the spot your arm used to be.

They'e meaningless abilities, TA is nothing more than an additional Hate tool, I'll Trick attack anyone infront of me in Voidwatch because they're probably already capped on hate anyway, and Coll/Accomp don't do enough to be benefit anyone with their timer restrictions.

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superior evasion

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PUP Has about 30 less base Evasion than THF, and they have a Pocket WHM on them at all times, NIN has less Evasion by a good margin, But get 5/4 Shadows, and can sub DNC to heal, DNC has less evasion by a small amount, but gets a Strong -PDT JA, Sambas, and Waltzes to keep themselves alive, as well as the ability to sub NIN for further protection.

Pure Evasion is not all its cooped up to be, especially when solo. THF has to chose between more shadows, or Healing itself. PUP, DNC, and NIN all have more survivability than a THF.

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and moar! GIMME MOAR!"

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I bet you scream the same thing to starving children, "oh, You already had 3 peas little johny, You're such a greedy c*nt". I admit, thats a bit stretching it, I just wanted to call Johny a little C*nt.

but THF is a starved job, none of what you described even remotely makes THF useful for anything. their Tanking abilities at best are useful if you can't find any other job to tank.

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Originally Posted by Septimus

More damage on daggers would help, but I think that a greater adjustment to one-handed weapons and dual wield needs to be looked into to become more competitive with two-handed weapons. I am not saying that dual-wield should be more powerful than two-handed weapons like the olden days, but they could be more balanced equalized in strength so that dual-wielding is close to on-par with two-handed weapons.

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I agree :)

Are you accounting for fSTR and delays with this changes?

Something ~everyone~ always seems to forget is that fSTR vastly favors lower DMG / Delay weapons over the higher DMG / Delay weapons.

EX.
Mandau D55 Delay 174 ATK +40 DPS:18.96 fSTR (Rank 6) cap: 14, STR required to cap: 56 over VIT
DMG at cap: 69, new DPS: 23.79, gain from fSTR: 25.45% (69/55)

Excalibur D73 Delay 233 ATK +40 DPS: 18.79 fSTR (Rank 8) cap: 16, STR required to cap: 64 over VIT
DMG at cap: 89, new DPS: 22.9, gain from fSTR: 21.91% (89/73)

Apocalypse D167 Delay 513 ACC +40 DPS: 19.53 fSTR (Rank 18) cap: 26, STR required to cap: 104 over VIT
DMG at cap: 193 new DPS: 22.57, gain from fSTR: 15.5% (192/167)

Now unless your inside abyssea getting more then 50~60 STR over the target's VIT is ridiculously hard in TP gear, if your WS is highly STR based then it's more likely during WS. If you were to just stick with an fSTR value of 12~14 (48~56 over VIT) then the Mandau crush's everything else in melee DPS. Of course other things come into play like Excal's bonus damage and such. The only times a lower DMG weapon hurts is if you have a WS with a small WSC mod (Evis). With Exten being 100% AGI and those jobs that wield daggers (THF/DNC) having access to ridiculous amounts of AGI, the low base DMG of your weapon is are important during WS.

This also means that STR in TP gear is more important for THF / NIN / DNC's then it is for WAR / DRK / SAM.

You kids are cute.

Thing is, for most non-VW stuff, I can duo my THF with my WHM alt just fine. The mob dies quicker than a DNC soloing it, my droprates are better, and she never dies due to hate.

In lowman stuff, I more than hold my own against SAMs, WARs, etc. I improve droprates, open/close skillchains often, proc in dyna often, can tank, can pull, etc. Sure, I may be an idiot, but you suck at playing THF if you think the job is really so poor in potential right now.


I guess the official THF forums are full of morons. Back to elsewhere! *WHOOOSH*

If you are happy with the way you play thf, good for you.

I'm certainly not happy.

VW is the current endgame, and it completely excludes thf. Out of idk, 70 runs, i was only able to use thf 4 times. My love for the job was what kept me going throughout all these years of FF, and i can't even play it right now. Guess what? i quit the game (again). I was not having fun, why stay? I would even bear not getting drops on VW, and i can count the stuff i did get with 1 hand, but not being able to play thf was simply too much.

You're making me sound mean ):< not cool.

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Thing is, for most non-VW stuff, I can duo my THF with my WHM alt just fine.

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So can i and every other THF Worth their damn. Does that mean THF is fine? no, a f**king RDM and WHM Could duo just fine. Anything + a WHM Can "duo just fine".

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The mob dies quicker than a DNC soloing it

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A Duo killing faster than someone solo? Youdontsay.jpg. Plus, this is plain wrong unless you're rocking a Mandau and comparing yourself to a full pink DNC. Equally geared and buffed point for point DNC has better DPS than THF Due to having a higher Dual Wield Trait and Haste Samba, Only thing that would mix it up is if the THF Had Mandau, which DNC Can't wear, But Thwast comes close.

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my droprates are better

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better than what? No Thf? Of course. Better than a /thf? yah. no one denies that, ever. Its just the difference is so negligible only people so deep in denial act like it does anything worth mentioning.

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and she never dies due to hate.

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Again, Anyone with a fourth of a brain can Duo WHM + ???. This doesn't make THF Good.

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In lowman stuff, I more than hold my own against SAMs, WARs, etc.

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Then they suck, Plain and simple. This is just facts, SAMs and WARs are far superior in damage than a THF. THF Isn't left so far in the dust they can't make out the WAR's shoes, But they aren't catching up anytime.

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I improve droprates

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So does a /THF.

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open/close skillchains often

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Who can't? This is called a weaponskill function, not a job function. How is this relevant?

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proc in dyna often

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So can every other job.

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can tank

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So can any DD-hybrid Job. Most of them much better.

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can pull

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So can everyone.

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Sure, I may be an idiot, but you suck at playing THF if you think the job is really so poor in potential right now.

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I'm a better Thief than you can ever hope to be. A good Thief isn't about comparing yourself to mediocre DD and acting like you're top dog. Its about recognizing all flaws and strengths of the job, and knowing where you fall short, and where improvement is due.

You're a bad THF because you're too blinded by what i can only assume is the sh*t you're so full of to see Thief may be 'Acceptable' at the same tasks most jobs in the game can perform, but they themselves have nothing truly unique enough to keep them useful.

Thief is a dying job, and Its relevance is fading out. SE needs to stop trying to "fix" TH and give Thief more uses than being a one trick pony. TH is nice, But focus on other aspects of the job would be nice too.

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I guess the official THF forums are full of morons. Back to elsewhere! *WHOOOSH*

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And you open by saying "you kids are cute"? You're acting like a 13 year old, Or one of those 20-something people who think they're "All grown up" because they can buy alcohol now.

No, No I think you're being defensive right now. You're attempting to hide your embarrassment by using humor, or acting like its not effecting you. Basic defense and cop-out mechanism, Especially when one knows they have no footing to stand on.

I see it all the time, Someone goes in somewhere, spouts something stupid, gets called out, then they run away calling everyone else dumb. Shouldn't be ashamed of the fact you're simply reacting how any upset person would.

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Originally Posted by Sfchakan

Thing is, for most non-VW stuff, I can duo my THF with my WHM alt just fine. The mob dies quicker than a DNC soloing it, my droprates are better, and she never dies due to hate.

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Of course a Thief is going to kill faster than a Dancer when there's someone in white pants around to cast Dia II and Haste. You know what would kill even faster and get statistically comparable drops? A Dancer/Warrior able to full-time Saber Dance and Haste Samba and never use Waltzes because of a White Mage/Thief's presence.

Your comparison of solo to duo conditions is like comparing one orange to two oranges and noting that the two oranges have more orange-ness.

Saying that a job meant to be in a party situation should be on par with dnc and nin or heavy DD jobs is just silly. That's like saying brd should be able to do the same. Thf is reliant on part situations to do well over and over...not just spike damage once every 3 minutes. And if you look at thf in a party situation, like duo dynamis or abyssea, they are superior when they can abuse trick attack and sneak attack. The job doesn't need anything really. Maybe add a little bit of triple attack or something? Even though thf gets 19% in a decent tp set >.>

SE already tried to close the gap with passive traits. You'll notice a lot of single-handed weapon users get some sort of +crit trait, fencer, etc, nowadays. In addition, single-handed weapon users can get additional DPS by dual-wielding. As far as a DMG bonus on daggers, SE did that 5-6 years ago already.

I don't think this needs to be done at all.

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Originally Posted by Tinuviel

SE already tried to close the gap with passive traits. You'll notice a lot of single-handed weapon users get some sort of +crit trait, fencer, etc, nowadays. In addition, single-handed weapon users can get additional DPS by dual-wielding. As far as a DMG bonus on daggers, SE did that 5-6 years ago already.

I don't think this needs to be done at all.

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Just to correct you, Fencer only works when a person uses 1 weapon IE: Main hand...not when using Dual Wield. Of which war gets the highest tier of, bst 2nd highest tier, brd 3rd highest and anyone else only tier I when subbing /war. If you don't believe me then feel free to log on, get on your war and read the passive description for yourself.

Also, the +crit trait is a Crit Att Bonus. Yes thf gets highest, dnc 2nd highest, and war/drk with 3rd, but this depends on the jobs ability to reach the ideal cRatio to make sure their crit rate allows for them to crit often enough to make use for it in DoT while maintaining good pdif and acc rating also...something a 2hander can do better than 1hander. I believe the only reason why thf ended up with the highest iteration of the trait was so that SE wouldn't have to rework Sneak Attack/Trick Attack damage calculations to keep up with the increase of level cap or to avoid adding SAII/TAII with higher dex/agi conversion rates than SA/TA. Which still isn't that big of a gain on any of the endgame content to make anyone say "Hey, you know what we need that we don't have? A thf...can someone switch to thf?" Only time I ever go on thf to any vwnm is Pil to pull hate off tank for terror/doom move.....or cause someone has this superstition that TH actually affects what pops in their chest. Isn't cause I have a relic or my dmg output...obviously isn't for procs I bring to the table (oooh dagger WS procs that the dnc can do + bring ja procs over me and cure better than if I was /dnc).

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Originally Posted by Fupafighter

Saying that a job meant to be in a party situation should be on par with dnc and nin or heavy DD jobs is just silly.

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This imaginary person running around screaming at everyone for THF to be the best at everything ever is getting annoying, I need to shut this person up! >_>

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That's like saying brd should be able to do the same.

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No not really. BRD is clearly defined as a support role, It has some weapon prowess, but so does WHM, BLM, RDM, and SMN. THF is a Hybrid(TH/Enmity) DD.

THF has Traits and abilities that define it as a DD, SA, TA, Assassin, Triple Attack. While BRD has abilities designed to buff others.

Its an okay comparison, but its not as "Grey area" as you may it sound is all.

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Thf is reliant on part situations to do well over and over...not just spike damage once every 3 minutes.

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Yah, THF is a heavy party job, I'm actually okay with this to be honest. I wish i could use SA more, But Its not a big deal.

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And if you look at thf in a party situation, like duo dynamis or abyssea, they are superior when they can abuse trick attack and sneak attack.

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No they aren't unless you're comparing them to gimp DDs, No offense. They don't even come close. SA and TA at best make their WS's as Strong or almost as Strong as a Ukko or Shoha. sure, my SA Mercy can beat most Shoha/Ukko's in terms of consistancy, But Ukkos and shoha will peak higher because they have far more damage potential.

And don't rely on a JA To be active.

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The job doesn't need anything really.

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I firmly disagree, the only reason THF Can be called a job at this point is TH, Which as it goes higher, it gets less of a boost. If a NIN had TH3, or DNC had TH3, you think people would low-man with THF? Hell no.

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Maybe add a little bit of triple attack or something? Even though thf gets 19% in a decent tp set >.>

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More Triple attack would be nice... We got Triple Attack II but it was only +1%.... Like seriously. My general TP Set up puts me around 20% Triple Attack, Ring/Head/Feet/Merits/base.

I still think adding a buff to TH would be nice. Doesn't need to be anything insanse, But give us a Buff with increasing potency based on TH Level, Power up THF for doing a good part of its job (TH Whoring!)

To anyone who claims they 'hold their own vs a 2H DD.

In hate-capped situations, as a THF you'll be under the mis-interpretation that you're holding your own agains 2-handers because the mob turns to face you more often. The reason is simple though... you hit it more often^^

When you go up against a vere MNK, you'll understand that you suck. Especially when they /war and take less damage than you. It's sad, so sad, but my averagely geared (haste capped and no gear swaps) MNK would out DD my very well geared (and inv full of gear swapping equip) THF.

It's because my THF offers TH >.>

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

No they aren't unless you're comparing them to gimp DDs, No offense. They don't even come close. SA and TA at best make their WS's as Strong or almost as Strong as a Ukko or Shoha. sure, my SA Mercy can beat most Shoha/Ukko's in terms of consistancy, But Ukkos and shoha will peak higher because they have far more damage potential.

And don't rely on a JA To be active.

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This isn't my experience at all. I'm used to tie with good heavy DDs on low haste situations. If it's a lazy heavy dd i beat them so bad it's not even fun. I guess i could be biased tho. This experience comes mostly from new dyna at level 90 (only played for 1.5month at level 99 cap). There were certain aspects to being a mithra thf back then (mainly capping crits very easily - i don't think any other job could achieve it) that were overshadowed with new level caps.

Anyway, Idk if you remember, but Motenten and i posted some spreadsheet numbers on thf vs war a while back, and it really did show our competitiveness in this scenario.

SA/TA recast is a small bottleneck with haste spell only. We get tp in about 20 secs but we can only use a stacked WS every <30 secs. There is hardly time to put an evis/exen inbetween. It could make sense, but if it's an event like dyna, mobs die fast and SA/TA recast ticks between the pulls. Still, at super haste we get tp under 10 secs and we can actually use 2 ws between the stacked ones. This imo is where the problem is at. It really breaks our average ws damage and our damage as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Laphine

This isn't my experience at all. I'm used to tie with good heavy DDs on low haste situations.

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Not to sound rude, But if thats the case, Those DD's are slacking or aren't as good as they/you think they are. This shouldn't ever really be the case. They may simply not have known they were being parsed and didn't bother trying :P

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Anyway, Idk if you remember, but Motenten and i posted some spreadsheet numbers on thf vs war a while back, and it really did show our competitiveness in this scenario.

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I remember it, but not the specifics :X

Well, i won't say that's not what happened. Altough a bit too cloudy now and i can't really remember much (names/jobs/numbers), that whole server rep thing is usually my baseline. Someone that is known for being a good player will usually bring his game. Thing is, i don't remember ever being crushed on thf, and you are implying that's the only thing waiting for us no matter what.

K well most people don't bring their sam or warrior into dynamis lol. As far as "normal" dynamis setups, thf can push really good damage when they can abuse SA/TA. God if my samurai were more balanced in situations to handle decent challenge, I would say yeah, samurai > thf, but most people don't bring a whm to cure the 2 handers in Dynamis.

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Originally Posted by Laphine

Thing is, i don't remember ever being crushed on thf, and you are implying that's the only thing waiting for us no matter what.

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nay, Nuh-uh, Nope, Nyet, and the ever popular, Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo*splat*!

If you look back, I've said on multiple occasions, a THF Can crush a gimp ass DD, or even an Ukko WAR if that WAR doesn't take simple precaution like.. Trying, or using Gear swaps. My point is, if its a DD who actually knows what they're doing and plays well? Yah, THF is fudged.

You may be getting the impression that I'm saying "WERE BONED EVERYWHUR", but that's Likely because I don't bother bringing up meaningless facts like "I outparsed a full Perle WAR", or "I out-DD'd that one monk using Afflictors" or anything equally flimsy, not that you do, Just in general. In truth, I only compare myself to DD who posses some level of intelligence and gear standards.

its easy to feel like you're rocking hard when you look around and "Average" is one step above 'DURrrrrrrrrr', But when you crawl out of the cesspool of mediocrity into real players, You look around and realize your contributions are rather small. This is a general statement, not specifically in direction to you Laphine.

So I may come off as meaning we're SOL no matter what, But in reality, We're only SoL if we're up against a real DD of equal gear and intelligence. In reality, THF isn't a completely terrible DD in itself, and before i stray to far and someone else yet again runs their ignorant mouth(not specifically you) about "THF DOESNT ONRY DD", I'd like to once more mention, DD isn't the only area I'd like Thief to be improved on, nor is it the only one I've made suggestions in regards too, The job has some Aspects where it could really shine if its worked on a bit.

Its got a lot of things it does at an acceptable level,

DD
Tank
Enmity
TH

If SE expanded on those aspects of the job and really focused on what would make Thief interesting, or useful, Could have a good job on our hands. THF just needs some focus. Right now, They probably look at job updates and go, "Well, THF has TH, So lets pass on them this time around..." like they've been doing for years. Every 3 years or so they go "We've held off, Lets give them something tiny to shut them up".

Early on: Assassin
Then: Dagger Damage boost
Now: Bully

Noticeably, every meaningful boost THF has gotten, thats been regarding as a joyful event, Has been a boost that helped THF DD. Odd. I mean, TH upgrading everyone was like "YAY", then we realized TH4+ Is pretty much Going from 25% Drop rate with TH4, to 26% with TH12.

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Originally Posted by Fupafighter

K well most people don't bring their sam or warrior into dynamis lol. As far as "normal" dynamis setups, thf can push really good damage when they can abuse SA/TA. God if my samurai were more balanced in situations to handle decent challenge, I would say yeah, samurai > thf, but most people don't bring a whm to cure the 2 handers in Dynamis.

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Bad Fupa.

Bringing a WAR or not bringing a WAR to dynamis doesn't matter. Some people may no go WAR because THF has TH, But theres still groups out there who go WAR/DNC and WHM/THF. People generally bring what they feel more comfortable on, Going THF over XXX job in Dynamis isn't a matter of "THF is better" its a matter of "Its all i have".

People who have WAR or MNK and a WHM Mule, Will probably go MNK or WAR and bring the WHM /THF, Or just gear up BST >_>

I do agree that thf is lacking in damage output SOLO or in VOIDWATCH. But you throw that thf (mandau or twashtar) with a job to tank in abyssea, dynamis, basically every other event, and they will tear shit up and cause good drops, with no curing really required. Every job has it's place, thf's place is dynamis and abyssea atm sadly. Good hopes for legion for you thfs though, as there will be no procing and Th will probably make a difference :)

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Originally Posted by Fupafighter

I do agree that thf is lacking in damage output SOLO or in VOIDWATCH. But you throw that thf (mandau or twashtar) with a job to tank in abyssea, dynamis, basically every other event, and they will tear shit up and cause good drops, with no curing really required. Every job has it's place, thf's place is dynamis and abyssea atm sadly. Good hopes for legion for you thfs though, as there will be no procing and Th will probably make a difference :)

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Meh, THF Isn't a terrible DD, not the point I'm trying to make, Hell, This thread wasn't even about making THF an Excellent DD, it (as i explained to someone a few pages back), Is simply a little boost in an ocean of Boost i think would help THF.

Truthfully, I'd be more happy with this Idea:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ead-Contribute!
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...raps-and-Bombs.

Than anything really DD Related

K I do dynamis daily lol, I see a warrior every once and awhile, but 95% of the time, it's bst whm brd nin thf dnc pup. Maybe your comfortable with going on those jobs, but for the most part, people go what they enjoy. I know I made my twashtar for the reason of doing dynamis in a fun way. And me and my friend pull in good numbers DNC and THF. We are both well geared... I can guarentee you if i went samurai and thf or something stupid like that, I would spend 50% of my time curing my ass. Oh and NOT EVERYONE HAS A MULE WHM to sit there and cure them. I have a dual box, but I don't use it in dynamis because it's just pointless and unneeded.

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Originally Posted by Fupafighter

Maybe your comfortable with going on those jobs, but for the most part, people go what they enjoy.

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This is exactly my point. People don't go THF, BST, etc because its better than WAR, They do that for simple reason, They go with what they're comfortable with.

WAR/DNC is better than THF/DNC if you got a WHM Friend or Mule. WHM Friend/mule can sub THF, Dia II every mob for TH.

Its not a matter of THF > WAR in Dynamis, Its a matter of comfortability. You only see people on XX job likely because its the easiest or best geared one they have. I personally go THF to Dynamis cause i have mandau, If i had an Ukkonvasara? I'd be hitting it up on WAR, and having my WHM switch to /THF, Or i'd be losing coin.

BST is the best "Solo" Option for Dynamis. THF/DNC Is good, But better as a Duo. Same for DNC, DNC/WAR with a WHM/THF would be > THF/DNC with a WHM. Same goes for a WAR/DNC+WHM/THF Duo > THF + WHM.

Of course there always some situations where X job is better than X job. At 75 Cap, RDM was better at Soloing things like Ungur, But that doesn't mean RDM Was the best solo job, It just was better at some situations. So is THF, as i said Earlier, THF has its strong points, and its low points, But having a few select uses (I.E, Level 75 content: Read: Dynamis) Does not a good job make. It makes it an Acceptable alternative.

You can't compare a "DNC + THF" Duo to a "SAM + THF" Duo, Because its a Dynamic shift in the party, going from a full Support/DD job like DNC, to a Pure DD job like SAM. You may as well say "My THF with a BRD and COR Support out-DD'd a SAM/PUP", Its an unfair comparison.

Plus, You'd guys probably double your coin output if you both geared up BST well and went as that. You're clinging to an eyeballed comparison between yourself and nameless people you /sea in Dynamis in the only event that even remotely favors THF.

THF Can perform well, Its an okay job, Its just not great, at anything, it excels at nothing, Its the RDM of DDs. It needs help in a lot of Areas, Being able to kill Easy Prey mobs in Dynamis doesn't make the job good.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

If you look back, I've said on multiple occasions, a THF Can crush a gimp ass DD, or even an Ukko WAR if that WAR doesn't take simple precaution like.. Trying, or using Gear swaps. My point is, if its a DD who actually knows what they're doing and plays well? Yah, THF is fudged.

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Well my point is that what make thf get fudged is haste. The best of the best THF is very competitive with the best of the best war or w/e in a low haste scenario.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

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Originally Posted by Fupafighter

And if you look at thf in a party situation, like duo dynamis or abyssea, they are superior when they can abuse trick attack and sneak attack.

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No they aren't unless you're comparing them to gimp DDs, No offense. They don't even come close. SA and TA at best make their WS's as Strong or almost as Strong as a Ukko or Shoha. sure, my SA Mercy can beat most Shoha/Ukko's in terms of consistancy, But Ukkos and shoha will peak higher because they have far more damage potential.

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Difficult to compare, but here's a few parses I have.

1) Dynamis Bubu. I'm on thf/dnc, other DD is nin/dnc. I have str and agi Thokchas. He has 85 Kannagi.

Me: 59.51%
Him: 40.44%

So I did 50% more damage than he did.

Note: this is not to compare me directly to him, but to have a baseline to compare to my mnk in the next parse.

2) Another Dynamis Bubu, though different mobs. I'm on mnk/dnc (90 Vere), nin is the same nin/dnc, and we also have a thf/dnc (not thf main, primarily just TH).

Me: 46.32 %
Nin: 30.20 %
Thf: 23.22 %

In this case I do 53% more damage than he did. Caveat: I was working on augmented relic pants in this one, so my damage is a bit weaker here than it would normally be.

Now yes, parses have problems with objective value. I'm sure there were plenty of factors that could skew the results in amongst all that. However I consider my mnk -very- good (as in, most DDs in voidwatch don't even get within 10% of me, even discounting proc assignments). If my thf is doing even moderately comparable damage when compared against the same person, and while only using normal magian daggers (agi offhand dagger, at that), I'm inclined to think that there's not a lot lacking in thf's damage potential.

If you want to point at the other thf in the second parse, note that he was using Auric/Thief Knife as his weapons, does not have Exenterator, and has no intention on improving on that. He explicitly says that he only uses thf as a "TH whore".


3) Dynamis Valkurm. Me on thf (same setup), and a very aggressive sam with 90 Masa, Shoha and very good gear, and a whm/dnc that was meleeing a bit for fun. This sam is one of the few that can actually beat my mnk on some (not all) Voidwatch mobs.

Sam: 51.12 %
Me: 46.11 %
Whm: 2.76 %

In this case, I can also note that I was the one keeping Haste Samba up all the time, so that cut into my weaponskill damage. And of course weaponskill damage will favor the 1 and 2-hit weaponskills of sam over the 5+ hit weaponskills of thf, due to overkill.


So I would say that the assertion that thf "[doesn't] even come close" to other DDs in situations like that is false. There are certainly plenty of gimp thfs, but that doesn't mean the job itself is weak.


I'd also note that a 2 point increase in weapon base damage results in roughly a 2% increase in overall damage for a thf, not the 4%+ you might naively be expecting.

At some point in this Post you may feel I'm mentally choking you and watching you gasp as i laugh at you. but I'm not. I can't word things well, and sometimes it sounds like frustration when its really just me spewing my thoughts. So don't take anything personally.

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I'd also note that a 2 point increase in weapon base damage results in roughly a 2% increase in overall damage for a thf, not the 4%+ you might naively be expecting.

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I meant in Terms of Base Damage on the weapon, no in terms to the raw DPS output of THF. I rewrote that sentence a dozen times trying to get that out right but i guess the point was still missed to some.

Moving on. You know as well as anyone how Parses are skewed, You said so yourself. Over-kill Damage, Human Errors, etc. I don't understand how this conversation keeps going to me debunking the idea that I think THF is a terrible DD and sucks in all forms, to me slowly making 1 person understand, only to have someone else 3 posts later say the same shit i just got done explaining to someone else, but i'll try again, Only because I like you.

I have a funny way of showing it though. Its okay.

I think THF is a waning job. Its got its strong points, Every job has its use in something, But THF isn't really that strong. THF can perform adequately and TH is a bonus some people consider when they don't realize how much of a bonus it actually is past 4. But i ask you is that job security? Thief can perform well In Dynamis, and is popular as such, because everything in Dynamis Is so far below you in Level your Evasion is great and your Attack is easier to cap on them, helping THF pull ahead.

In Endgame events of consequence, Like Voidwatch and Soon-to-be Legion, Thief has a little more trouble keeping up when everyone can perform to their peak. Especially buffed up. Thief can perform in an adequate manner when both parties are hideously underbuffed, But once the enemies go above level 85, and gain some real DEF on THF, it gets a bit tougher.

Beyond that, A few parses of a THF not out-dding a 90Emp SAM isn't really shocking to me. I have mountains of Parses where me on THF has Out DD everything from a 95Ukon WAR, to a Bravura WAR, and further, ranging from me in the buff party, or me in the Proc party, But that didn't really mean much because Human Error, Voidwatch killing people, So much, etc.

The thing is, In Voidwatch, If you're invited on THF, its because 1) Your party leader is like 'Sure whatever', or your friends with the person. THF has no unique procs, and while it can DD Well, Replacing it with another DD is more favorable. Even a DNC, DNC provides more procs.

Now, before it gets too far gone, I'd like to repeat some words I've said in the past really quick:

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SAMs and WARs are far superior in damage than a THF. THF Isn't left so far in the dust they can't make out the WAR's shoes, But they aren't catching up anytime.

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THF Can perform well, Its an okay job, Its just not great, at anything, it excels at nothing, Its the RDM of DDs

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Meh, THF Isn't a terrible DD, not the point I'm trying to make, Hell, This thread wasn't even about making THF an Excellent DD,

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The job has some Aspects where it could really shine if its worked on a bit.

Its got a lot of things it does at an acceptable level,

DD
Tank
Enmity
TH

If SE expanded on those aspects of the job and really focused on what would make Thief interesting

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THF is behind in Damage, But its still a part of its job. THF is a TH, and a DD.

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In case the reasoning for these quotes is lost. its emphasis on the fact i feel THF Is no slouch as a DD, Its not so far gone its not even in the race, Its no slouch in a lot of Departments, It can hold its own, But its also a far gap between a Really good DD, and that the job has no really "strong" points, it has no real unique abilities that will make it useful.

Even dynamis as an Example, BST would be far better than THF in every way, Survivability and Damage output.

THF can tank, But so can WAR, NIN, DNC, MNK, and most of those jobs can kill faster, and have more survivability. Solo or Duo.

THF can DD, but so can (A lot), And THF is probably Near the bottom end of the DD Spectrum (not to say its bad, Just not up there).

THF can provide TH4+, But other jobs can Provide Up to TH3, BST, and /THF with a Sash, and TH4+ Really isn't that impressive in terms of improvement in drop rates. Its an Effect, But not a great one. Still an Effect so we must give it that.

THF has a lot of things it can do "Well", But it has nothing it truly Exceeds at. Thats the jobs problem, Its like RDM in the way its "good" at a lot of things, but "Great" at nothing.

You're keeping up with that SAM, But Theres a lot of factors we don't know, Did he Hold WS's when it looks like the mob was low on HP, or did you, Who melee'd the most, Did you turn around to proc, both of your Gear sets, so on, so forth. I wish this kind of thing suddenly meant THF would be invited to End-game, Or that THF Was suddenly fine, and I can log on, See a shout, and ask to go THF, and they don't have to sit there, think about it, and ask me if i have any other jobs.

On the topic of Voidwatch, Even when i Say the words "I can go, I have PUP, BST, THF, DRG, WAR, MNK, THF has Mandau" to a VW shout who's 10/18 and could look for any job, Know what answer i get 9/10? "Smn". Because Despite having a Relic, my SMN is more useful than my THF in Voidwatch. The only time i get to go THF is when its something like "Looking for DD" and the leader is just like "Sure whatever".

The job, While at its core has the ability to perform well I ask you, Does that make the job okay?

It Has no unique quality keeping it useful these days. THF is never a wanted job, TH is a Wanted Trait, and in most cases, a Trait that you can ascertain elsewhere, BST for instance, and /THF with a Certain Sash. TH4+ is a part of the job, But it needs to be re-evaluated outside of giving some undisclosed boost to drop rate.

THF only has TH, and with the mist on TH clearing, You realize the job is being replaced. Even in Dynamis, BST takes control. Its likely because BST is easy to get into if you're gimp, but at the same time, It just goes to show, THF Can be replaced, easily, When TH is spread. The Job is nothing except that trait, and even that trait just simply does not keep the job relevant.

I feel like i'm talking in circles, Maybe this one made it a lot clearer though. I tried to pour out every thought, THF is "Okay" In a lot of ways, but it excels at nothing, and is at great risk of becoming almost entirely obsolete.