Small Request to Raise Dagger's Base Damage a tad.

[Karbuncle]

This might take a moment. So please bare with me. I easily lose my train of thought

Why does THF need more damage?

Because they suck at just about everything else thanks to SE not wanting to do anything with the job since TH keeps it 'useful'. Which is actually complete bull in voidwatch because TH is worthless to any group worth a damn.

THF is behind in Damage, But its still a part of its job. THF is a TH, and a DD. The Enmity control BS Barely holds water in a 2-man group, let alone an Alliance situation. SE Doesn't seem to realize just because we have Trick Attack and 2 JA's on a shared timer than grab a small amount of Enmity doesn't mean we're master of the flow of Enmity like they imagine.

So. Why do we need more Damage? its a function of the job. Just like Enmity control and Treasure Hunter. That and more Damage plays a credence to our Enmity control. More damage = Stronger Trick Attacks.

Is it going to change anything?

I'll kill quicker. What else is there to need in FFXI? I kill quicker means i Climb higher in Neo-Nyzul, I get more Currency in Dynamis, More Light-Bonus from Zerging in Voidwatch. More Damage changes a lot, Even if by a small amount, its by no means a trivial enhancement.

Give us a warm fuzzy feeling for 10 min after the update and forget that TH is why we cant have nice things?

Yes and the above.

It serves no purpose.

False. Serves plenty of purpose. Just read above.

What reason besides the universal "I like to hurt things more" is there?

What more reason do i need? Nay, What more reason does any person in this game need?

Why do you Get a relic? To hurt things more
Why do you do Voidwatch? To get gear to hurt things more.
Why do you do Neo-Nyzul? To get gear to hurt things more.

This entire game at its core is to hurt things more. So, You say it like its a bad thing, When in reality, Hurting things more is the only reason we bother to get out of Aurore Gear, The only reason we bother getting the hard stuff. Hurting things more is the core of this game.

2 points of dagger damage wont fucntionally change a dang thing.

4 points for Mandau. But thats besides the point. On a Thokcha, With a DMG of 47, An upgrade to 49 is about 3% more Damage. 4 points to Mandau is about ~6% more (base damage), and it would also put it back on the best DPS weapon.

We wont get invited more.

Who cares? I don't plan on this adjustment suddenly making 18 Man THF Zerg alliances the in thing, i plan on it making me more useful in the events i already go too, and being 1 step in the right direction for the job..

Neo Nyzul, Voidwatch, Dynamis, Abyssea. I've made a million THF suggestion, i have a compilation thread, IF you think I'm only suggesting Damage outputs, Read my other threads, I've made suggestions ranging from Enmity controlling to Pure Damage enhancements to TH buffs. This is just one of the many things that should be done to improve the job.

We wont be somehow more 'useful'.

No? Is a WAR with 90 Ukon more useful than a WAR with 85 ukon? Yes. Because it deals more damage, even by a small margin. More damage = more useful in the situations you're invited too.

Other peoples perception about the job wont change.

Irrelevant and I'm shocked you'd even bother bringing this up. People are stupid. Vehemently stupid. of course the ignorant masses will never change their sheepish opinion. But I and other THFs will take the buff and put it to its use for the events we're already invited too (named above)

What does it accomplish?

The same thing the entire game is driven by. More Damage.

All i see is we get an imaginary trophy that says "Mandau has the highest DPS of 20 relic weapons!!" which is a tittle that i really dont give a shit about

Sounds like a Personal problem. I can't change your point of view any more than i can turn the sky purple. Thats in your corner.

Plus, I've suggested more than this, and this suggestion in itself is a buff to all Daggers, not just Mandau.

If it doesnt change anything, then whats the point?

Think I answered this finely above. Its changes as much as getting that next piece of gear does. The driving point of the MMO, Getting the next thing to make you kill other things faster. Its increasing killspeed.

It changes what at the core is the reason for even playing an MMO. Killing things faster. Leveling up to kill faster, Getting gear to kill faster, Making friends who don't suck to kill faster!

Killing faster is quite frankly the best reason to want something, as its what drives people. That and looking cool in town i suppose. Always fun.

Aaaaannnddd I'm going to sleep - Give me something to do when i wake up ^_~

[Aana]

No i mean a REASON that is not "i wanna stab moar".

For example: 1st dagger damage boost
The game changed virtually overnight from a SC+MB+Hate set on the tank dynamic to a bounce-hate DD burn on mobs that people could hit. Thf went from super capable and needed job because it fit the dynamics flawlessly to the fat kid in dodgeball because thf was to constricted in its original design to fit the new burn world. The dagger update combined with assassin revolutionized thf play and took thf from a spike damage, position oriented hate setter in a SC+MB world to a DoT machine with a positional component. It made another style of play viable when the designed style became obsolete.

Dagger damage+assassin solved a gaping problem on a useless job and made it viable in a world that had made it obsolete.

The update was a clear answer to a clear problem. The only problem you have presented that would actually be solved is "Mandau would be retain its 'best raw DPS' number compared to other relics". Wow. A measurement of a weapon in a vacuum on paper as the 'strongest' weapon when not actually wielded by a character. Thats so useful to me. I can go onto FFXIAH.com and click 'sort by DPS' and mandau will be on top! OH YEAH BABY! Who cares. Thats just a matter of misplaced pride on a digital item, not even on your own character, just an item. Surely you can see why this is not a convincing show of 'need'? How else can I rehash that point? I guess we need to fix it so that the DPS and base damage rankings are identical across the board as they were at 75 because that is important at all? Status quo for the sake of the status quo? Poor, poor reasoning.

As to the rest of your responses, all i got was "SE isnt fixing thf how wed like so damage is all we can hope for". Im not willing to 'settle' for more damage because SE is stupid. Its not the solution to the problem of poor hate mechanics and poorly designed elements that had a cool concept but bad implementation. You are throwing up your hands and saying "well all we can POSSIBLY get now is damage because SE is to stupid to give us anything we want". Screw that. Make thf the concept it was supposed to be. Make tanking and hate control viable and therefore thf a strategic choice instead of just throwing damage at it.

Damage doesnt solve a single one of the problems you listed with thf and statements like "Damage is a part of the job" is just as viable a reason as a warrior saying "damage is part of the job. I want more DA." Same with "Ill kill quicker" or any other item that boils down to "i waann kill stuff faster". Why should a thf get more dagger damage when a warrior can make ALL the same 'arguments'. They should get it too. Why is thf 'deserving' of a damage boost when all your reasons are "i want to kill stuff better" over every single other job in the game? Rdm is farther down the totem pole and arguably more 'deserving' if you are using current DD potential rankings to justify an increase. If you arent using ranking then what are you using to justify it?

Im talking about a simple show of need. Justification. To what question is "more base damage" the answer that is actually thf specific and not every DD specific? Otherwise, just upe everyones base damage so EVERYONE can just kill stuff faster since thats the whole point! Just hand out an item called 'Primeval IV' that constantly drips right into your veins imbuing you with "killing faster POWA" since that fits all the requirements you listed that make an MMO fun and great.

Killing faster via obtaining gear and overcoming challenges and reaping the rewards is one thing. Getting stonger weapons because you asked the Devs nicely is something else.

[Karbuncle]

This might be tougher. But i'll give it a shot! Please read it all. I promise its not filled with anger and snarky attacks on you instead of arguments against and for the Opinions had.

No i mean a REASON that is not "i wanna stab moar".

For example: 1st dagger damage boost
The game changed virtually overnight from a SC+MB+Hate set on the tank dynamic to a bounce-hate DD burn on mobs that people could hit. Thf went from super capable and needed job because it fit the dynamics flawlessly to the fat kid in dodgeball because thf was to constricted in its original design to fit the new burn world. The dagger update combined with assassin revolutionized thf play and took thf from a spike damage, position oriented hate setter in a SC+MB world to a DoT machine with a positional component. It made another style of play viable when the designed style became obsolete.

I see. So The Dagger boost was originally introduced, in your opinion, because the game mechanics shifted and THF became obsolete due to the dynamic play-style shift?

This makes sense.

Dagger damage+assassin solved a gaping problem on a useless job and made it viable in a world that had made it obsolete

I can't quite agree with this. THF Sucked before that, and It just sucked slightly less after those updates... Kinda like what my adjustment would propose.

Assassin gave THF a new ability, to be able to Separate SA and TA effectively. This was a big boost. I concur. But they still weren't invited for anything other than TH. It was a Band-Aid on a Gun-shot.

Just like this would be. But if you put enough bandaids on it, Maybe you'll forget theres a bullet in your lungs? At least long enough to go to the hospital.

No? yah, I think we're dead already.

The update was a clear answer to a clear problem. The only problem you have presented that would actually be solved is "Mandau would be retain its 'best raw DPS' number compared to other relics".

Is it really such a bloody deal to want to regain something that was lost? I guess not, But at the same time. I Get where you're coming from. I can imagine my face if i saw a WAR thread asking for a Gaxe Damage boost.

Wow. A measurement of a weapon in a vacuum on paper as the 'strongest' weapon when not actually wielded by a character.

I can't imagine what you're trying to convey here. unless you're an idiot (you as in general public no "you're" as in specifically you), You realize DPS is only the foundation to a weapon potential.

but of course.

Thats just a matter of misplaced pride on a digital item not even on your own character, just an item.

I'm confused. Whats bad about having pride in something? Wrong. I'm very prideful in my character. I love my THF. I've grown attached to i over the years.

Surely you can see why this is not a convincing show of 'need'?

You've made your point clear. i get it. Surely you can see that I get your point, I just disagree with it some of it. Just like you disagree with my reason or needing or wanting this.

I guess we need to fix it so that the DPS and base damage rankings are identical across the board as they were at 75 because that is important at all? Status quo for the sake of the status quo? Poor, poor reasoning.

Oh wow, You must be a politician to get from "I would like Daggers to receive a small boost to improve their overall effectiveness and DPS, here let me cite an example." to "KEEP ALL THE WEAPONS THE SAME DPS RATIO OR ELSE".

Joking aside. Don't do that. Its beneath you. You can come up with something better than that based in reality.

As to the rest of your responses, all i got was "SE isnt fixing thf how wed like so damage is all we can hope for".

I've made countless others to boost THF in every aspect. Enmity Control, Damage output, Party Support/Debuffing point of view.

You seem to be narrowing your responses specifically to try and paint a picture of me that is completely inaccurate. I implore you to explore the venue. DD Is just one aspect of THF i would like to see receive a buff.

Im not willing to 'settle' for more damage because SE is stupid. Its not the solution to the problem of poor hate mechanics and poorly designed elements that had a cool concept but bad implementation. You are throwing up your hands and saying "well all we can POSSIBLY get now is damage because SE is to stupid to give us anything we want".

Also Wrong. Very very wrong. I won't lie, I know SE is incompetent, but I offer a lot of suggestions. Each one simple step in the right direction. Read; This is just 1 Suggestion in an ocean of suggestions that would make THF More competitive in endgame content

Its a Suggestion for a step in the right direction. You can't always have Improvements that go from "eh" to "WTF OMG THATS AWESOME" like say, Last resort. Sometimes Little buffs dished out over time can improve a job far more than one big FIREWORKS update.

Screw that. Make thf the concept it was supposed to be. Make tanking and hate control viable and therefore thf a strategic choice instead of just throwing damage at it.

This we can agree on. If only you knew...

Damage doesnt solve a single one of the problems you listed with thf and statements like "Damage is a part of the job" is just as viable a reason as a warrior saying "damage is part of the job. I want more DA." Same with "Ill kill quicker" or any other item that boils down to "i waann kill stuff faster". Why should a thf get more dagger damage when a warrior can make ALL the same 'arguments'. They should get it too. Why is thf 'deserving' of a damage boost when all your reasons are "i want to kill stuff better" over every single other job in the game? Rdm is farther down the totem pole and arguably more 'deserving' if you are using current DD potential rankings to justify an increase. If you arent using ranking then what are you using to justify it?

Not even going to break this one apart, Just going to tell you to read what i wrote above. Its 1 small Step for THF in the right direction. Of course becoming another Cookie-Cutter DD is not the solution, If you read my other threads, You'd know this too. But sometimes support isn't enough. Enmity control is nothing more than a faint vision of use in todays FFXI with their inability to raise the Enmity cap or rework enmity, its all kinda meh.

The type of improvement that would be required to really grasp fundamentals of Enmity would be an astronomical taking. But, Do a little searching, You may find a suggestion i made some time ago about Improvements to Enmity Control. To sum it up.

Split Timers of col/Acomp. Reduce Coll to 30s, Accomp to 2m
Add a JA that allows us to "Dump" 25% of our Enmity - 30min timer
Add a JA That allows us to Dump 50% of our Enmity - 2minmin
Add a JA That allows us to "Give" 25% of our Enmity - 30min
A JA that allows us to Give 50% of our Enmity - 2min

The "Dump" and "Give" Can share timers with their matching counter-part. This This would give THF the Ability to control the Enmity of battle a little more. Something SE wants.

Could also have a "Stored Enmity" - Enmity gained through "Collaborator" and "Accomplice" gives a kinda "Sublimation" effect of Stored Enmity. This Enmity could do something to the THF to buff it in some way as well, TO assist in their tanking. Maybe Dumping Enmity on someone could be enhanced through merits where, When Dumping your Enmity on someone, they gain like, +10 Enmity for 30 seconds or something, and Collaborator/accomp gives -10enmi or -20enmi for ~30 seconds to that person.

Im talking about a simple show of need. Justification. To what question is "more base damage" the answer that is actually thf specific and not every DD specific? Otherwise, just upe everyones base damage so EVERYONE can just kill stuff faster since thats the whole point! Just hand out an item called 'Primeval IV' that constantly drips right

Cutting it off here. You're taking it to the extreme. the Slippery Slope argument is the most flimsy "Cop out" Argument there is. No, Just because person does XXX doesn't mean suddenly the World is going to be over-run with Rape-Zombies marrying Pigs and Everyone getting Primeval Brew Dispensers.

Killing faster via obtaining gear and overcoming challenges and reaping the rewards is one thing. Getting stonger weapons because you asked the Devs nicely is something else.

I think this is the first truly reasonable thing I've seen you type that didn't have some subtle hint of "Hey! FK YOU BUDDY" in it. Then again. We're both guilty of that, no?

I admit. I skimmed. Also, You can Blame Zero Punctuation Game Reviews for keeping me awake long enough to respond to this.

Good show chap. This is getting more fun as it goes on. I do enjoy a good debate.

[Laphine]

The way i see it, we are already fighting over our cookie cut. TH was the only thing that gave us that cut without even the need to fight. Now, with the trait devalued, SE threw us among the rest of the DDs. And when we talk DD we talk damage, and the lack of damage is what excludes us from events. Surely, the lack of procs do not help at all. And what can we expect when we lack procs, damage and TH? THF is broken for the current FFXI. We need to have something. Hate control (that other thing we have...) wasn't needed ever since the burn style pts came to be.

So yeah, i'm completely in favor for a damage increase for THF. Increasing damage on daggers is quite cool, but it really is a small boost, and i would rather fight over something worth fighting for. Something groundbreaking like reducing SA/TA recast to 30 secs. The recast on SA/TA is the bottleneck to our performance on any haste value (that's what we get with DW3 and capped equip haste). With a lower recast, this bottleneck would still exist, but instead it would move to higher haste values. This essentially means that we would still not beat the heavy hitters on 80% haste, but at least, we would be competitive on lower values.

[Aana]

Most updates (not all) generally solve a problem or address an issue.

Back in ye olde days the entire world revolved around SATA. WS>SATAWS on tank SC>Tank has hate throws on Estaff+vit+prays>Blm MB. Mob dies. Repeat. This was the method in EXP. This was the method for HNM kills. It was the entirety of the playstyle for all DDs. Everyone come /thf and SATA the 2 opposing sides tanks. TP gain was slow. Melee damage was terrible and unimportant. The only goal was to land a big fat SATAWS every few MINUTES on a tank that was turtled up to hell and MB off it. Thf fit very nicely into that world. From VB distortions to SB lights from lv 30-75 and endgame, Thfs 1 min full SATA design was the standard. Thf was highly saught after in EXP parties. In endgame, other DDs could rival it for damage using the same SATA method (Sam/Thf), but we were still there for TH and fit into the dynamics anyway.

Then the burns came. Now you had to WS more than once a fight. Hate setting in large chunks via SATA actually became a liability to the even hate bounce all DD/nin design. Mobs spun like tops making a full SATA nigh impossible anyway. The focus became fight lower mobs DDs could hit and kill. HNMs focused on buffing DDs. In both cases melee damage became the main driver instead of skillchains. Thf with its horrendous daggers (yall remember when sirocco/hornet needle was considered 'viable'!?) could not participate in this. The mechanics and weapons literally prevented it from being a useful party member no matter how well you geared.

In comes assassin and dagger damage boost. Overnight we went from a full SATAWS once a fight SC Spike damage DD to a job whos damage primarily came from melee damage. We no longer needed the extreme positional requirements to full SATA because we could split them making us able to function in a tankless scenario and our multi hit WS became strong enough to stand alone (DE). Those changes completely turned thf on its head from an obsolete job that worked in a SC+MB world, but couldnt tie its own shoelaces in a burn world into a competent member of a party.

A second round of only minor dagger damage update wont have anything near this effect. Thats what i keep pushing. Previously there was a glaring and obvious problem (Thf's design no longer functioned in the game and needed a new direction)

With the loss of turtle tanking and the advent of DDtanking (atonement), SATAWS became an impractical hate tool for the 'hate control job'. And thus came Assassin combined with the accomplice. 5min timer was found insufficient for hate dynamics that change much faster than that, thus collaborator. Problem: Hate tools not capable of manipulating hate. Fix: Assassin+Accomplice. Accomplice found to be slow to provide active hate management: Collaborator.

Most changes are a response to a problem or issue and (hopefully) fix that problem/issue.

You can quote me from ages ago, the only DD related buffs for thf I have explicitly ever asked for was 2 things:

*DW 3 native: Reason-It would cut the umbilical cord for /nin as both the best offensive and defensive sub with the premise (opinion) that options and variety are an improvement. Now i have a choice between tradeoffs like /war vs /nin or /whatever. That single adjustment opens many doors.

*Easing of SATA positional requirements: Everything spins these days and SA in particular is a frustrating game element. Assassin fixed TA. When I often intentionally just DONT use the the jobs defining JA because its to much of a pain in the ass, I figure that is an issue that needs looking at. Seems that bully was SEs attempt at that. If that was 'good enough' or not is debatable, but it's certainly a good direction and a clear response to the issue of SA on spinning monsters.

And on down the line.

Your enmity ideas are an attempt to solve a problem. The (now heavily flawed) enmity system and in general I can easily get behind. Clear needs deserve clear solutions (or at least attempts at solutions). I still fail to see how minor bumps to DD solve any tangible issues. A small buff is going to be unnoticed and have virtually no impact on anything besides killing faster for the sake of killing from a handout. It doesnt achieve anything. A large DD buff changes our role into a top DD class (which i personally dont think is the 'direction' thf needs to go). The reasons for a DD buff (imo) are to:

*Bring up a sorely underpowered job class (see Thf post SC+MB days using sirocco+hornet needles in a TP burn world). We arent in this situation anymore. (though 'relative' DD power is always debatable because its relative. We certainly arent as bad off as we were then.)
*Redifine a jobs role. If you gave smns A+staff, a crapload of good melee gear and a personal super DD buff like zerk+DA when ifirit is out or soem other HUUUUGE DD buffs it would forceably be trying to change Smn to focus on a melee oriented role. Does thf need to be redefined into a heavier melee class? I dont think so, but matter of opinion and not quite the position your advocating anyway.

The dagger boost is similar to me as giving rdm 5 more damage on enspells. So what? It doesnt solve Rdms melee problems. It doesnt change their role. It doesnt give them more utility. (although it just occured to me it could subtly boost their party support via /sch and acession on a party but anyway). I fail to see a direct link between a (small) dagger boost and any of the issues that plague thf today. Its a dessert update when were starving for meat and potatoes.

[Karbuncle]

Think of it this way.

Treasure Hunter is given a bonus to where, The level of Treasure Hunter on an Enemy determines A buff on the THF.

TH1~3 - Acc+3% Attack+3% Critical hit Rate +2%
TH4~6 - Acc+5% Attack+5% Critical hit Rate +4%
TH7~9 - Acc+7% Attack+7% Critical hit Rate +6%
TH10~12 - Acc+9% Attack+9% Critical Hit Rate +8%
TH13+ - Acc+10% Attack+10% Critical Hit Rate +10%

This would be a big boost to THF DD on harder enemies. It gives TH a use in places its not normally useful, BCNMs, Voidwatch.

Now imagine we got the Enmity control updates I've mentioned in other Thread. Perhaps we also get Steal and Mug to deal damage modified by DEX and AGI respectively and based on the weapons base damage.

No we have all these updates fundamentally pushing THF in the right direction. A update to Dagger base damage would simply be a means to further increase THFs aspect of DD.

I'll repeat it again, I completely see your reasonings and logic. THF is in a bad place right now, With Voidwatch nearly completely obsoleting THF due to no THF Specific Procs, and TH Being useless, Wouldn't Now be a better time than ever to try and give the job a little Boost? IDC where we get the boost as long as its useful.

SE Keeps giving THF little pieces of half-useful half-meh junk (bully being the most recent, Its great for a once-per-3-min WS, But otherwise rather useless). Just once I would like them to look over THF updates. Look at the suggestion threads i create here as more of a Wishlist. A Wishlist that would put to use suggestions that hopefully eventually see the light of the day.

I don't expect a small boost to dagger to suddenly update the job to an unbelievable level, I spelled that out in every post, I expect it to be one step in a staircase of adjustments that help the situation of Thief. Thats all. If Daggers don't have DPS Going for them, What do they have? I guess you could say I'm mostly a little pissed at weapons like Oneiros Knife, that has a Base damage of fucking 30 for a level 85+ Dagger. SE is just getting stupid with it overall with the D: Ratings on daggers.

I always view DD as one part of the job. The game being almost entirely about Voidwatch and Killspeed(Neo-Nyzul), THF has gotten far behind in this department. Some groups in Nyzul don't even bring a THF and now, with the "Kill boss 25x, Get 1 piece of armor update, and Reach FLoor 100 and get a floor 100 Armor, Thf just became a MAJOR liability. Who's going to bring a THF To neo-Nyzul now that Reaching Floor 100 Guarantees a piece of floor 100 armor? They'll just pile on the DD And shoot for floor 100.

Some groups who shoot for floor 80 May still bring a THF, Or they may have someone come /THF. a WAR/THF or a SAM/THF is still a better DD Than a THF/WAR.

TH, THFs only true exclusive use in todays FFXI, is becoming functionally useless as a whole, In almost the same way SATAWS + SC Burns were becoming obsolete when our first boost came around. The fundamental part of the job is slowly being eaten away in endgame content because of updates making TH Less appealing. So if something isn't dont quick, THF will be completely dead in the water.

Being able to perform parlor tricks like Taking someones Enmity isn't going to get us invited to VW or N-Nyzul because in those Events Enmity isn't a problem, Ever. Fanatics and temp items as far as the eye can see. Enmity control is completely useless in FFXI Today, sad but true, Not one uses "Real" Tanks anymore and Enmity Reset happens on almost every other action with most mobs. If THF is to survive, It needs to do something useful, Or it needs to be a stronger DD.

I made a suggestion a while back about Bombs/Traps, a JA System similar to Quickshot, With charges and all, That Damages and Debuffs an Enemy based on a Type of Trap/Bomb Expended. This would add a support quality to THF.

- Also an Addendum to the above Coll/Acomp Adjustments. The Ability to Dump Enmity on someone could also be potentially useful for Enmity Reset situations. Perhaps Dumping the Enmity on Someone could give that someone a "Immunity to Enmity Reset" For 15s or so.

THF needs more uses outside TH, because TH is becoming completely worthless in most endgave events. SE needs to step up their game and take their head out of the sand on this one. What they really should do is like the above, Give THF some major boosts to DD, or Make that boost an AOE BUFF TO THE PARTY so THF has a reason to bother building TH on things TH Has no use on.

Give TH a use other than mysteriously working in the background. Give us a JT, "Treasure Hound", That increases the Party in a way equivalent to the level of TH on the mob. Like the Adjustment i suggested above, Except in AoE form.

Or hell, an Adjustment to TH THat each Level of TH on the mob debuffs it.

TH1~3 - Def-10% Mdef-10%
TH4~6 DEF/mdef-15%,
TH7~9 DEF/mDEF-20%
TH10+ DEF/mDEF-25%

A permanent Debuff effect. ON level with Angon later on, On level with Dia early on, With the bonus of MDEF down as well. This would significantly help the other DD and the THF.

So, Giving THF itself a DD boost won't completely fix it, But giving us ways to Support our Fellow DD That realies on Treasure Hunter falls in line with the job, And gives THF an over-all Effectiveness Boost.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

That's some OP shite. Especially to a job that will NEVER not be required.

[Karbuncle]

That's some OP shite. Especially to a job that will NEVER not be required.

What do you mean required? Did we timewarp at some point? THF isn't required for anything in FFXI right now. /THF offers pretty much the same level of TH effectiveness thanks to TH4+ Being very low increases, and TH is the only thing the job had going for it.

Plus, It really was quite literally numbers I pulled out of my Ass, Not expected values.

[Arcon]

That's some OP shite. Especially to a job that will NEVER not be required.

In addition to what Karby said, THF also has no role whatsoever in any event involving chest rewards, which is the majority of current content. The only exceptions to that are Dynamis, which isn't a group event anymore and hence THF is not required, and new Nyzul Isle.

Also, there is a slight but relevant difference between "THF required" and "TH required" and I'm not talking about the missing letter.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

What do you mean required? Did we timewarp at some point? THF isn't required for anything in FFXI right now. /THF offers pretty much the same level of TH effectiveness thanks to TH4+ Being very low increases, and TH is the only thing the job had going for it.

Plus, It really was quite literally numbers I pulled out of my Ass, Not expected values.

VW is ending and it's going back to drop rates so TH will be needed, whether only a small increase or not it's still an increase. That said TH4+ needs to receive a bigger increase especially 9+ but not in the form of increased damage.