Small Request to Raise Dagger's Base Damage a tad.

[Laphine]

Well, i won't say that's not what happened. Altough a bit too cloudy now and i can't really remember much (names/jobs/numbers), that whole server rep thing is usually my baseline. Someone that is known for being a good player will usually bring his game. Thing is, i don't remember ever being crushed on thf, and you are implying that's the only thing waiting for us no matter what.

[Fupafighter]

K well most people don't bring their sam or warrior into dynamis lol. As far as "normal" dynamis setups, thf can push really good damage when they can abuse SA/TA. God if my samurai were more balanced in situations to handle decent challenge, I would say yeah, samurai > thf, but most people don't bring a whm to cure the 2 handers in Dynamis.

[Karbuncle]

Thing is, i don't remember ever being crushed on thf, and you are implying that's the only thing waiting for us no matter what.

nay, Nuh-uh, Nope, Nyet, and the ever popular, Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo*splat*!

If you look back, I've said on multiple occasions, a THF Can crush a gimp ass DD, or even an Ukko WAR if that WAR doesn't take simple precaution like.. Trying, or using Gear swaps. My point is, if its a DD who actually knows what they're doing and plays well? Yah, THF is fudged.

You may be getting the impression that I'm saying "WERE BONED EVERYWHUR", but that's Likely because I don't bother bringing up meaningless facts like "I outparsed a full Perle WAR", or "I out-DD'd that one monk using Afflictors" or anything equally flimsy, not that you do, Just in general. In truth, I only compare myself to DD who posses some level of intelligence and gear standards.

its easy to feel like you're rocking hard when you look around and "Average" is one step above 'DURrrrrrrrrr', But when you crawl out of the cesspool of mediocrity into real players, You look around and realize your contributions are rather small. This is a general statement, not specifically in direction to you Laphine.

So I may come off as meaning we're SOL no matter what, But in reality, We're only SoL if we're up against a real DD of equal gear and intelligence. In reality, THF isn't a completely terrible DD in itself, and before i stray to far and someone else yet again runs their ignorant mouth(not specifically you) about "THF DOESNT ONRY DD", I'd like to once more mention, DD isn't the only area I'd like Thief to be improved on, nor is it the only one I've made suggestions in regards too, The job has some Aspects where it could really shine if its worked on a bit.

Its got a lot of things it does at an acceptable level,

DD
Tank
Enmity
TH

If SE expanded on those aspects of the job and really focused on what would make Thief interesting, or useful, Could have a good job on our hands. THF just needs some focus. Right now, They probably look at job updates and go, "Well, THF has TH, So lets pass on them this time around..." like they've been doing for years. Every 3 years or so they go "We've held off, Lets give them something tiny to shut them up".

Early on: Assassin
Then: Dagger Damage boost
Now: Bully

Noticeably, every meaningful boost THF has gotten, thats been regarding as a joyful event, Has been a boost that helped THF DD. Odd. I mean, TH upgrading everyone was like "YAY", then we realized TH4+ Is pretty much Going from 25% Drop rate with TH4, to 26% with TH12.

K well most people don't bring their sam or warrior into dynamis lol. As far as "normal" dynamis setups, thf can push really good damage when they can abuse SA/TA. God if my samurai were more balanced in situations to handle decent challenge, I would say yeah, samurai > thf, but most people don't bring a whm to cure the 2 handers in Dynamis.

Bad Fupa.

Bringing a WAR or not bringing a WAR to dynamis doesn't matter. Some people may no go WAR because THF has TH, But theres still groups out there who go WAR/DNC and WHM/THF. People generally bring what they feel more comfortable on, Going THF over XXX job in Dynamis isn't a matter of "THF is better" its a matter of "Its all i have".

People who have WAR or MNK and a WHM Mule, Will probably go MNK or WAR and bring the WHM /THF, Or just gear up BST >_>

[Fupafighter]

I do agree that thf is lacking in damage output SOLO or in VOIDWATCH. But you throw that thf (mandau or twashtar) with a job to tank in abyssea, dynamis, basically every other event, and they will tear shit up and cause good drops, with no curing really required. Every job has it's place, thf's place is dynamis and abyssea atm sadly. Good hopes for legion for you thfs though, as there will be no procing and Th will probably make a difference

[Karbuncle]

I do agree that thf is lacking in damage output SOLO or in VOIDWATCH. But you throw that thf (mandau or twashtar) with a job to tank in abyssea, dynamis, basically every other event, and they will tear shit up and cause good drops, with no curing really required. Every job has it's place, thf's place is dynamis and abyssea atm sadly. Good hopes for legion for you thfs though, as there will be no procing and Th will probably make a difference

Meh, THF Isn't a terrible DD, not the point I'm trying to make, Hell, This thread wasn't even about making THF an Excellent DD, it (as i explained to someone a few pages back), Is simply a little boost in an ocean of Boost i think would help THF.

Truthfully, I'd be more happy with this Idea:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ead-Contribute!
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...raps-and-Bombs.

Than anything really DD Related

[Fupafighter]

K I do dynamis daily lol, I see a warrior every once and awhile, but 95% of the time, it's bst whm brd nin thf dnc pup. Maybe your comfortable with going on those jobs, but for the most part, people go what they enjoy. I know I made my twashtar for the reason of doing dynamis in a fun way. And me and my friend pull in good numbers DNC and THF. We are both well geared... I can guarentee you if i went samurai and thf or something stupid like that, I would spend 50% of my time curing my ass. Oh and NOT EVERYONE HAS A MULE WHM to sit there and cure them. I have a dual box, but I don't use it in dynamis because it's just pointless and unneeded.

[Karbuncle]

Maybe your comfortable with going on those jobs, but for the most part, people go what they enjoy.

This is exactly my point. People don't go THF, BST, etc because its better than WAR, They do that for simple reason, They go with what they're comfortable with.

WAR/DNC is better than THF/DNC if you got a WHM Friend or Mule. WHM Friend/mule can sub THF, Dia II every mob for TH.

Its not a matter of THF > WAR in Dynamis, Its a matter of comfortability. You only see people on XX job likely because its the easiest or best geared one they have. I personally go THF to Dynamis cause i have mandau, If i had an Ukkonvasara? I'd be hitting it up on WAR, and having my WHM switch to /THF, Or i'd be losing coin.

BST is the best "Solo" Option for Dynamis. THF/DNC Is good, But better as a Duo. Same for DNC, DNC/WAR with a WHM/THF would be > THF/DNC with a WHM. Same goes for a WAR/DNC+WHM/THF Duo > THF + WHM.

Of course there always some situations where X job is better than X job. At 75 Cap, RDM was better at Soloing things like Ungur, But that doesn't mean RDM Was the best solo job, It just was better at some situations. So is THF, as i said Earlier, THF has its strong points, and its low points, But having a few select uses (I.E, Level 75 content: Read: Dynamis) Does not a good job make. It makes it an Acceptable alternative.

You can't compare a "DNC + THF" Duo to a "SAM + THF" Duo, Because its a Dynamic shift in the party, going from a full Support/DD job like DNC, to a Pure DD job like SAM. You may as well say "My THF with a BRD and COR Support out-DD'd a SAM/PUP", Its an unfair comparison.

Plus, You'd guys probably double your coin output if you both geared up BST well and went as that. You're clinging to an eyeballed comparison between yourself and nameless people you /sea in Dynamis in the only event that even remotely favors THF.

THF Can perform well, Its an okay job, Its just not great, at anything, it excels at nothing, Its the RDM of DDs. It needs help in a lot of Areas, Being able to kill Easy Prey mobs in Dynamis doesn't make the job good.

[Laphine]

If you look back, I've said on multiple occasions, a THF Can crush a gimp ass DD, or even an Ukko WAR if that WAR doesn't take simple precaution like.. Trying, or using Gear swaps. My point is, if its a DD who actually knows what they're doing and plays well? Yah, THF is fudged.

Well my point is that what make thf get fudged is haste. The best of the best THF is very competitive with the best of the best war or w/e in a low haste scenario.

[Motenten]

And if you look at thf in a party situation, like duo dynamis or abyssea, they are superior when they can abuse trick attack and sneak attack.

No they aren't unless you're comparing them to gimp DDs, No offense. They don't even come close. SA and TA at best make their WS's as Strong or almost as Strong as a Ukko or Shoha. sure, my SA Mercy can beat most Shoha/Ukko's in terms of consistancy, But Ukkos and shoha will peak higher because they have far more damage potential.

Difficult to compare, but here's a few parses I have.

1) Dynamis Bubu. I'm on thf/dnc, other DD is nin/dnc. I have str and agi Thokchas. He has 85 Kannagi.

Me: 59.51%
Him: 40.44%

So I did 50% more damage than he did.

Note: this is not to compare me directly to him, but to have a baseline to compare to my mnk in the next parse.

2) Another Dynamis Bubu, though different mobs. I'm on mnk/dnc (90 Vere), nin is the same nin/dnc, and we also have a thf/dnc (not thf main, primarily just TH).

Me: 46.32 %
Nin: 30.20 %
Thf: 23.22 %

In this case I do 53% more damage than he did. Caveat: I was working on augmented relic pants in this one, so my damage is a bit weaker here than it would normally be.

Now yes, parses have problems with objective value. I'm sure there were plenty of factors that could skew the results in amongst all that. However I consider my mnk -very- good (as in, most DDs in voidwatch don't even get within 10% of me, even discounting proc assignments). If my thf is doing even moderately comparable damage when compared against the same person, and while only using normal magian daggers (agi offhand dagger, at that), I'm inclined to think that there's not a lot lacking in thf's damage potential.

If you want to point at the other thf in the second parse, note that he was using Auric/Thief Knife as his weapons, does not have Exenterator, and has no intention on improving on that. He explicitly says that he only uses thf as a "TH whore".


3) Dynamis Valkurm. Me on thf (same setup), and a very aggressive sam with 90 Masa, Shoha and very good gear, and a whm/dnc that was meleeing a bit for fun. This sam is one of the few that can actually beat my mnk on some (not all) Voidwatch mobs.

Sam: 51.12 %
Me: 46.11 %
Whm: 2.76 %

In this case, I can also note that I was the one keeping Haste Samba up all the time, so that cut into my weaponskill damage. And of course weaponskill damage will favor the 1 and 2-hit weaponskills of sam over the 5+ hit weaponskills of thf, due to overkill.


So I would say that the assertion that thf "[doesn't] even come close" to other DDs in situations like that is false. There are certainly plenty of gimp thfs, but that doesn't mean the job itself is weak.


I'd also note that a 2 point increase in weapon base damage results in roughly a 2% increase in overall damage for a thf, not the 4%+ you might naively be expecting.

[Karbuncle]

At some point in this Post you may feel I'm mentally choking you and watching you gasp as i laugh at you. but I'm not. I can't word things well, and sometimes it sounds like frustration when its really just me spewing my thoughts. So don't take anything personally.

I'd also note that a 2 point increase in weapon base damage results in roughly a 2% increase in overall damage for a thf, not the 4%+ you might naively be expecting.

I meant in Terms of Base Damage on the weapon, no in terms to the raw DPS output of THF. I rewrote that sentence a dozen times trying to get that out right but i guess the point was still missed to some.

Moving on. You know as well as anyone how Parses are skewed, You said so yourself. Over-kill Damage, Human Errors, etc. I don't understand how this conversation keeps going to me debunking the idea that I think THF is a terrible DD and sucks in all forms, to me slowly making 1 person understand, only to have someone else 3 posts later say the same shit i just got done explaining to someone else, but i'll try again, Only because I like you.

I have a funny way of showing it though. Its okay.

I think THF is a waning job. Its got its strong points, Every job has its use in something, But THF isn't really that strong. THF can perform adequately and TH is a bonus some people consider when they don't realize how much of a bonus it actually is past 4. But i ask you is that job security? Thief can perform well In Dynamis, and is popular as such, because everything in Dynamis Is so far below you in Level your Evasion is great and your Attack is easier to cap on them, helping THF pull ahead.

In Endgame events of consequence, Like Voidwatch and Soon-to-be Legion, Thief has a little more trouble keeping up when everyone can perform to their peak. Especially buffed up. Thief can perform in an adequate manner when both parties are hideously underbuffed, But once the enemies go above level 85, and gain some real DEF on THF, it gets a bit tougher.

Beyond that, A few parses of a THF not out-dding a 90Emp SAM isn't really shocking to me. I have mountains of Parses where me on THF has Out DD everything from a 95Ukon WAR, to a Bravura WAR, and further, ranging from me in the buff party, or me in the Proc party, But that didn't really mean much because Human Error, Voidwatch killing people, So much, etc.

The thing is, In Voidwatch, If you're invited on THF, its because 1) Your party leader is like 'Sure whatever', or your friends with the person. THF has no unique procs, and while it can DD Well, Replacing it with another DD is more favorable. Even a DNC, DNC provides more procs.

Now, before it gets too far gone, I'd like to repeat some words I've said in the past really quick:

SAMs and WARs are far superior in damage than a THF. THF Isn't left so far in the dust they can't make out the WAR's shoes, But they aren't catching up anytime.

THF Can perform well, Its an okay job, Its just not great, at anything, it excels at nothing, Its the RDM of DDs

Meh, THF Isn't a terrible DD, not the point I'm trying to make, Hell, This thread wasn't even about making THF an Excellent DD,

The job has some Aspects where it could really shine if its worked on a bit.

Its got a lot of things it does at an acceptable level,

DD
Tank
Enmity
TH

If SE expanded on those aspects of the job and really focused on what would make Thief interesting

THF is behind in Damage, But its still a part of its job. THF is a TH, and a DD.

In case the reasoning for these quotes is lost. its emphasis on the fact i feel THF Is no slouch as a DD, Its not so far gone its not even in the race, Its no slouch in a lot of Departments, It can hold its own, But its also a far gap between a Really good DD, and that the job has no really "strong" points, it has no real unique abilities that will make it useful.

Even dynamis as an Example, BST would be far better than THF in every way, Survivability and Damage output.

THF can tank, But so can WAR, NIN, DNC, MNK, and most of those jobs can kill faster, and have more survivability. Solo or Duo.

THF can DD, but so can (A lot), And THF is probably Near the bottom end of the DD Spectrum (not to say its bad, Just not up there).

THF can provide TH4+, But other jobs can Provide Up to TH3, BST, and /THF with a Sash, and TH4+ Really isn't that impressive in terms of improvement in drop rates. Its an Effect, But not a great one. Still an Effect so we must give it that.

THF has a lot of things it can do "Well", But it has nothing it truly Exceeds at. Thats the jobs problem, Its like RDM in the way its "good" at a lot of things, but "Great" at nothing.

You're keeping up with that SAM, But Theres a lot of factors we don't know, Did he Hold WS's when it looks like the mob was low on HP, or did you, Who melee'd the most, Did you turn around to proc, both of your Gear sets, so on, so forth. I wish this kind of thing suddenly meant THF would be invited to End-game, Or that THF Was suddenly fine, and I can log on, See a shout, and ask to go THF, and they don't have to sit there, think about it, and ask me if i have any other jobs.

On the topic of Voidwatch, Even when i Say the words "I can go, I have PUP, BST, THF, DRG, WAR, MNK, THF has Mandau" to a VW shout who's 10/18 and could look for any job, Know what answer i get 9/10? "Smn". Because Despite having a Relic, my SMN is more useful than my THF in Voidwatch. The only time i get to go THF is when its something like "Looking for DD" and the leader is just like "Sure whatever".

The job, While at its core has the ability to perform well I ask you, Does that make the job okay?

It Has no unique quality keeping it useful these days. THF is never a wanted job, TH is a Wanted Trait, and in most cases, a Trait that you can ascertain elsewhere, BST for instance, and /THF with a Certain Sash. TH4+ is a part of the job, But it needs to be re-evaluated outside of giving some undisclosed boost to drop rate.

THF only has TH, and with the mist on TH clearing, You realize the job is being replaced. Even in Dynamis, BST takes control. Its likely because BST is easy to get into if you're gimp, but at the same time, It just goes to show, THF Can be replaced, easily, When TH is spread. The Job is nothing except that trait, and even that trait just simply does not keep the job relevant.

I feel like i'm talking in circles, Maybe this one made it a lot clearer though. I tried to pour out every thought, THF is "Okay" In a lot of ways, but it excels at nothing, and is at great risk of becoming almost entirely obsolete.