Practical Soultions to Issues with RDM.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I don't see people asking white mages to whip out their mauls just because Afflatus Misery and Cura are designed around being in melee range.

It's more like those spells and abilities are generally useless because they'd require a mage to be in melee range.

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White Mages that want to melee want to melee regardless of those spells/abilities.

But more importantly, both of those suck, but not because they require being in melee range, but instead because they just suck. Cura III doesn't heal enough to make up for the fact that you can just fulltime Solace and bust out a Penury'd Curaga V for free if the party gets significantly hurt, and even for White Mages that are meleeing, you have to swap into cure potency gear to even cure a decent amount with it.

The only saving graces of the abilities are that Afflatus Misery and Auspice allow you to get ungodly amounts of accuracy - oh wait they nerfed that and Auspice isn't worth casting outside of the Subtle Blow buff. Okay, the only saving graces of the abilities are that you can pop Misery with no penalty once a minute to unnerf Esuna, and Cura is a cheap and fast way to wake up a party.

I might not be articulating this perfectly at the moment, but basically, Afflatus Misery sucks, the effects it has on Auspice sucks, and Cura is underpowered. Afflatus Solace and Cura would be more useful for a Paladin (but would still suck), as would Dagan (why this WS isn't AoE at least on the HP part is beyond me), because they're pretty much tools for a tank. While I've heard of numerous cases of White Mages healing and White Mages doing damage, I've only heard a handful of cases of White Mages willingly tanking (and having to hold a mob because something bad happened doesn't count).

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With Enhancing magic we have to look at what RDM brings to the table VS. other support classes. Yes RDM can heal, haste, cast high level shell/protect, and Phalanx 2 but is this really worth a spot when you could get a WHM to pre-shell/protect and have a SMN,COR, or BRD not only support heal/DD but provide much better performance Enhancements?

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You need to look beyond the basic buffs you see at face value. Yes WHM can AoE the same buffs we have and no we are not capable of competing for a party spot based on that. What a WHM can not do however is provide individual buffs that can be job dependent. WHM can boost STR, we can gain DEX, WHM can boost INT, and we can in turn Gain MND them. Not everything in this game is cut and dry one buff fits all jobs equally. A COR or RNG for example would gain more from Gain AGI, then say boost STR, if they were in range of the buff at all.

To the second paragraph, this is why enhancing magic buffs (all of them including haste) need to scale with Enhancing magic skill, if a RDM can provide a 20% haste vs a WHM's 15% haste that is an automatic invite. Currently the enhancing magic skill boost is limited greatly to personal buffs only, there are some that can be AoE'd /SCH but the big one (haste) can not. It is in the same vein as healing magic is with /Cure IV base power being the same as a main jobs cure 4. The issue is compounded further when the best buff in the game is also granted via subjob at full potency, meaning BRD's and SMN's can cure as well as a RDM and provide its most useful buff at the same level.

Lastly I agree that RDM does need more diverse spells to use, but in retrospect we kind of already have the tools that most jobs have Dia III is a 17% attack increase Bio III is a 17% defense increase, Gravity II (if they ever let it land) is a 10% ACC increase, Blind II is a 15% evasion increase. These are similar effects to BRD and COR buffs (madrigal, minuet, mambo, minne, Chaos, Hunter's, Ninja.) and all of these stack with each other.

Again the issue is not that we don't have the tools it is that the tools are either severely limited in application (such as gravity) or are capable of being provided from /RDM (haste, DiaII + Light Shot, Bio II+Dark Shot) or equally represented by other jobs (which do not stack with us) such as NIN's level 44 Kuryami Ni.

So once again it comes back to making RDM the clear cut choice for providing these party wide buffs (or debuffs if you want) currently it is not. (with the exception of Dia III and Bio III which a COR can then extend further than Dia II or Bio II).

I do think RDM does need some other unique buffs, such as fast cast bonus, macc bonus (currently tied to Death Blossom however). But as i said earlier adding things to a shaky foundation is iffy at best.

Here is a comprehensive list of buffs and indirect buffs (debuffs) RDM has for comparison to other jobs

Dia - Attack +
Bio - Defense +
Blind - Evasion +
Gravity - Accuracy +
Haste - ATK speed up
Refresh - MP restoration
Phalanx II - Damage Reduction (magical and physical)
Gain Spells - Single Target Stat +
Temper- DA rate +

All of these stack with similar buffs that jobs like COR, BRD and SMN can provide, however until SE makes these spells work for the whole group, and on current content RDM is left with Refresh II, Dia III and Bio III, everything else can be replaced by another job.

(also just to touch on the AoE aspect, I feel Bar and Pro/Shell should remain WHM AoE only, they have to merit these spells to be better then a RDM and as such it would be sad to see WHM have 2 more useless merit options, It is a similar gripe I have against Kuryami being the same potency as a 5/5 Blind II merit spell.)

Id love to see new buffs/debuffs and secondary abilities (for healing/melee/nuking). But until the foundation of the job is fixed to the point where we are wanted for a group the toys people want to see are gimmicks, that will still likely not get us invites. As you said both go hand in hand, but you need to have the foundation poured before you can build the house.

Actually SMN kind of doesn't stack with a lot of stuff, but that is a SMN issue for the SMN boards. Although in my opinion these buffs should have had their own unique separation akin to COR and BRD. (their Aura's do though!)

Things RDM does need I think:

A magic defense debuff series (like dia and bio) 5/10/15% (akin to adding 17MAB)
LVL 10/50/90
A magic evasion debuff -25 and -40 (akin to adding 25 MACC, and 40 MACC)
lvl 45/95.

These abilities can be found on DNC, COR and SMN primarily.

Also because I feel rather saucy,
Regain, lvl 99 3TP/tic.

Hi2U COR Regain and Save TP.

Of course that is if you decide to let enfeebles work on mobs, and our buffs to work on allies again. Then again lots did ask to have our casting load dropped so they could swing their swords, you did a damn good job of it, now undo that because we are a Support Mage, and it is time we were allowed to support again. (ironic isn't it that addressing the concerns of the melee crowd to allow for more time to melee in groups actually removed RDM from being invited to groups all together.)

I said "Assuming double attack caps at 50%" and before posting that i had looked on numerous boards/community sites and was unable to see any extensive testing (usually in the under 200 hit test range) So i had just inserted the quite popular cap of 50% (50% PDT/MDT for example, and the cap of -50% recast/cast?) So it was fair for me to insert. If you have a source with substantial testing for double attack rate ranges known to exist, then please direct me toward it. But thats still somewhat irrelevent because a single doubleattack spell isnt ENOUGH of a reason to invite redmage alone, if it were, then you might see summoners actually asked to keep an aura up for their parties.

I like how Mageoholic talks like Gains are single party target instead of single target self only. You keep talking about things they already said no to and keep going like they are magically going to reverse their standing because you want it. You're still doing this all wrong. You want to work on a foundation, then do it by actually addressing the issue instead of working in some imaginary zone where SE is reasonable and RDM is definitely going to get fixed. Stop assuming things are coming to RDM. You seriously misleading yourself and wasting your time.

It just has me thinking WHMs will now get a Pianissimo-like JA that'll turn their AoE buffs into single-targets. That feels more like SE logic there since the AoE issue isn't unlike those BRDs have faced in getting varying buffs on party members.

I still hold out hope for a greater synergy between the abilities we have now to collectively create a better job than individually focusing on WHM, BLM, or WAR tactics to the -X degree for a given encounter, but that would also require greater effort than tweaking a recast timer or even some resist rates.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

I like how Mageoholic talks like Gains are single party target instead of single target self only. You keep talking about things they already said no to and keep going like they are magically going to reverse their standing because you want it. You're still doing this all wrong. You want to work on a foundation, then do it by actually addressing the issue instead of working in some imaginary zone where SE is reasonable and RDM is definitely going to get fixed. Stop assuming things are coming to RDM. You seriously misleading yourself and wasting your time.

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Mage is just RCD. He's messing with ya'll trying to stir up a debate.

My advice, add him to ignore list and move on, he'll eventually get bored and lurk in the General forum.

Best enfeeble RDM got is chainspell stunning - not really an enfeeble per-say, but it can make a mob gimp.

Do that one trick! Chainspell stun! Aw, who's a good boy.
owait-they build resistance eventually.

tldr; why rdm?

RDM needs to boost more things unique to them. Such as critical attack rate for themselves and herpaderp others.
Magic attack bonus so they can stack well with other mages. Blue has Plenilune, why can't RDM have something like that owaitusuck.

A Magic Barrier type buff that absorbs magic damage, or a phalanx type for magic damage.
And buffs that overwrite certain debuffs, a more different approach to WHM erase.
Haste II that isn't necessarily more potent in %tage given, but overall buff duration with the ability to overwrite slow/slow ii effects.
When I'm on BLU and a RDM hastes me, I feel dirty. Y u overwrite my 5min with your 3min. Even if you gotta extended duration it will still make me feel dirty and tainted.

And, while under the effect of Composure, Spontaneity should have a chance to be used again immediately.

Oand, gravity II - make it level 40 or someshit so we can use it in BCNMs and make actual good use of it.
"I herd yu like gravity so we put more gravity so you can keep a mob more gravitied".
Don't talk balance when the practical USE of these spells vs the time spent to implement the content itself is UNbalanced kthx.

Enspell II needs to be able to proc more than once per an attack round.
I'll even settle for a chance to proc more than once.

One last thing. Quick magic - ppl are more used to it by now with atma of apoc.
I really don't understand why ppl were against RDM having it as a job trait.

Cuz seriously.
You don't cast fast.

Unless you're talking about - Utsusemi stoneskin Utsusemi stoneskin.
Cuz that life, still sucks.

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

You need to look beyond the basic buffs you see at face value. Yes WHM can AoE the same buffs we have and no we are not capable of competing for a party spot based on that. What a WHM can not do however is provide individual buffs that can be job dependent. WHM can boost STR, we can gain DEX, WHM can boost INT, and we can in turn Gain MND them. Not everything in this game is cut and dry one buff fits all jobs equally. A COR or RNG for example would gain more from Gain AGI, then say boost STR, if they were in range of the buff at all.

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You have a really valid point here that I did not think about. If the design team was to remove the self-target + no Accession restriction on RDM gain spells it would allow him/her a lot more options on how to buff a group vs. a WHM's Boost-spells. Overall, RDM gains a unique feature with out becoming a lesser version of a WHM.

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

Things RDM does need I think:

A magic defense debuff series (like dia and bio) 5/10/15% (akin to adding 17MAB)
LVL 10/50/90
A magic evasion debuff -25 and -40 (akin to adding 25 MACC, and 40 MACC)
lvl 45/95.

These abilities can be found on DNC, COR and SMN primarily.

Also because I feel rather saucy,
Regain, lvl 99 3TP/tic.

Hi2U COR Regain and Save TP.

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I don't think a magic debuff series would be possible because of how strong a high tier Shell is. But if it was a low % like -5% with a decent Enfeebling skill gear set it might be possible. I'm still not sure how I feel about this one.

I see a magic evasion debuff as being fully possible and a really note worthy spell for RDM. I know DNC has stutter step but it seems very odd that DNC is the only job that can do this (I have no idea if BLU can so if I'm wrong please correct me), when RDM is designed to debuff. I think this spell would increase RDM's invite rate a lot since a RDM would not have to keep stacking it like a DNC.

As for a 3TP/tic Regain.... We can always dream. lol. This would be like refresh was during the 75 cap era. Let the spell stay off a melee for 2 seconds and they start to rage that you're not doing your job. lol

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I like how Mageoholic talks like Gains are single party target instead of single target self only.

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You must not know what italics represent in lists, or have read anything I typed earlier. We are talking about what allowing our spells to work allows for please keep up.

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I don't think a magic debuff series would be possible because of how strong a high tier Shell is. But if it was a low % like -5% with a decent Enfeebling skill gear set it might be possible. I'm still not sure how I feel about this one.

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Shell can be dispelled, all these would do is reduce a mobs resistance to spells (MACC/MEVA) and a jobs defense to spells (MDB). As for the MEVA reduction, there are other jobs who can apply this as well, infact RDM can apply this currently via Death Blossom and Enspell II's. So maybe we don't need an MEVA spell. (other ways to lower resistance are AMII's, Ninjitsu Ele wheel).

And at this point in the game I do not see why we can not have Regain, Cor has 2 different rolls it can provide that offer Regain from 1-5 TP/tick (Companions and Tacticians roll), and with Save TP roll it is clearly not an issue with balance the abilities to regain are in the game, and it would not hurt if another job got them, considering SE allows 25+ TP to be saved on every WS.

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Stop assuming things are coming to RDM. You seriously misleading yourself and wasting your time.

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Im not assuming things are coming to RDM, or really even asking for things to come to RDM. Everything I have suggested is something RDM already has, and are things other jobs can already do. I am asking SE fix what RDM currently has, I mentioned 2 new debuffs, 1 new buff simply because as I was going through the list of abilities other support jobs had those 3 jumped out at me as something that either several have, or that are currently limited.

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

Actually SMN kind of doesn't stack with a lot of stuff, but that is a SMN issue for the SMN boards. Although in my opinion these buffs should have had their own unique separation akin to COR and BRD. (their Aura's do though!)

Things RDM does need I think:

A magic defense debuff series (like dia and bio) 5/10/15% (akin to adding 17MAB)
LVL 10/50/90
A magic evasion debuff -25 and -40 (akin to adding 25 MACC, and 40 MACC)
lvl 45/95.

These abilities can be found on DNC, COR and SMN primarily.

Also because I feel rather saucy,
Regain, lvl 99 3TP/tic.

Hi2U COR Regain and Save TP.

Of course that is if you decide to let enfeebles work on mobs, and our buffs to work on allies again. Then again lots did ask to have our casting load dropped so they could swing their swords, you did a damn good job of it, now undo that because we are a Support Mage, and it is time we were allowed to support again. (ironic isn't it that addressing the concerns of the melee crowd to allow for more time to melee in groups actually removed RDM from being invited to groups all together.)

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I do think it's over due to see some Magical def down/evasion enfeebling spell's. To keep it simple tho I think combining them would be the way to go.

I'd be all about a Regain spell <targetable> as well. Not to concern about cycle's. Most buff's have decent duration these day's thanx to composure + gear. Hopefully in the future were see a bit more of it.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Mage is just RCD. He's messing with ya'll trying to stir up a debate.

My advice, add him to ignore list and move on, he'll eventually get bored and lurk in the General forum.

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Lol says the guy who has followed me around since he found out who I was dry humping my leg, hiding behind an ignore list. Grow up kid. Why don't you put on the big boy pants.

It could be because I am actually interested in seeing a job I played solely for 7 years get the help it needs. It needs to be defined, and it needs a role. The only realistic role is that of a SUPPORT MAGE.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

I like how Mageoholic talks like Gains are single party target instead of single target self only. .

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Actually he could have phrase it better by saying self targeted only. But than he probably didn't think some one would come behind him and take it out of context and try and make him look dum over it. We all know it's self targeted the only person you single out here is yourself trying to make something out of nothing.

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Originally Posted by Crimson_Slasher

I said "Assuming double attack caps at 50%" and before posting that i had looked on numerous boards/community sites and was unable to see any extensive testing (usually in the under 200 hit test range) So i had just inserted the quite popular cap of 50% (50% PDT/MDT for example, and the cap of -50% recast/cast?) So it was fair for me to insert. If you have a source with substantial testing for double attack rate ranges known to exist, then please direct me toward it. But thats still somewhat irrelevent because a single doubleattack spell isnt ENOUGH of a reason to invite redmage alone, if it were, then you might see summoners actually asked to keep an aura up for their parties.

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Except that:

1) PDT and MDT are the only stats that still cap at 50%, and offensive stats like Crit Rate never have to begin with.

2) Making shit up to use as premises for an argument is bad, mmkay?

3) Summoner Auras require keeping the same pet out for a long period of time without using blood pacts in order to reach max potency. Eg, they're utter shit.

4) Byrth has done plenty of DA testing and did the vast majority of Saber Dance testing (and a ton of Temper testing) as it is now. I'm sure if you shoot him a PM on BG he'll be able to link you to his data. Considering he has Saber Dance starting at 50% DA, I highly doubt he'd gloss over a total stat cap at 50%.

Having just read SE's recent announcements on PLD and DRK, it is pretty sad that they can't even stop by and say here is the direction we have in mind for RDM. Honestly updating Shield Bash and Weapon Bash was a priority? what with DNC having violent flourish on a short recast and BLU with their hand full of stuns already.

Would be nice to have some feedback SE. What is the jobs purpose, where do you see it going forward. 8 years of silence is pathetic.

I think the main problem with RDM as a job is that SE has no idea on what this job should be.

1. If Rdm should be master of enfeebler - this position is easily covered by many other mage jobs. As other posters have mentioned, WHM, SCH, and BLM can cast most of the spells that RDM can and do a good job at it.
2. If Rdm should be master of enhancing - WHM and SCH can do just as good, have access to better spells, and get a lot of AOE spells more so than RDM. Composure only works on RDM self casted spells...which negate the whole point about being a master of enhancing - that only benefits the said RDM but not to the party.
3. If Rdm should be a melee mage - sadly this position is already covered by Blue Mage with far far better spells, some party buffs AOE spells, and much better damage output.
4. If Rdm should be the jack of all trades - well I think SCH pretty much kill this with a rdm set as support job, plus SCH can cure and nuke better than Rdm.
5. If Rdm should be a support job - uhmm hello there, most of RDM spells are SELF casted only and for some spells you cannot even use accession to help the party, plus SCH makes a better support job that complement WHM better than RDM can ever hope. Why would you make a job as support when most of their spells are self target and do not benefit your party members. The day of Refresh and Haste monkey is over - it's time for SE to take a long hard look at this job.

So what is RDM suppose to be? Why SE is taking so long at actually do some tweaking on this job (and Summoner)???? Please stop giving all the good stuffs to Samurai... or White Mage...

Greatguardian

#1 Crit damage caps at 50% according to the ranger forums last i checked (while looking into jishnu builds) even if crit rate does not. PDT/MDT cap at 50% (excluding situations where pets are involved). Recasts cap at 50%, Fast cast used to cap at 50%, there is quite a few things that do cap at 50% so it was a fair assumption qualified with "Assuming" not "It does".

#2 STILL Nitpicking the information that is not fully understood by you or me? Sarcasm not appreciated as it does not contribute to your argument. Try some respect because your lack of it is rather tired and old.

#3 This is common knowledge, and while that would lower overall damage yeild, A summoner invited ONLY for double attack auraing and told not to pact would be on the scale of effect of a redmage only invited for temper. In which case again my argument is supported that it might be MORE useful to have a cor providing the double attack roll than a redmage and a corsair. Someone would need to do the math but i still think 3 good DD with more double attack wouldnt beat 4 DD and unless you are going to remove the whitemage from this specific party in that situation and make the redmage and cor double up for heal duty.

#4 This is more useful and thankyou for giving me someone to ask, however even in your statement here you show that you havent seen any information from this source that says a rate over 50% can be achieved. While i dont doubt there is a possability (especially post 75 cap) thats still no concrete evidence.

Additional note; Yes Twilight belt isnt good for monk, but its not exactly bad persay, i use a brown belt because they made it nigh-impossible to get a black belt these days. However if you are capping haste, stacking MORE haste over something that provides other benefits (double attack?) would be a bit of a waste. Not everyone has a blackbelt still and like i said, some monks use them, not all. If you leveled monk and didnt have a black belt, you could have reason to use a t-belt. Or if you do have one and dont need say your leg slot to be that 6% haste, again you could switch it out.

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Originally Posted by Crimson_Slasher

Greatguardian

#1 Crit damage caps at 50% according to the ranger forums last i checked (while looking into jishnu builds) even if crit rate does not. PDT/MDT cap at 50% (excluding situations where pets are involved). Recasts cap at 50%, Fast cast used to cap at 50%, there is quite a few things that do cap at 50% so it was a fair assumption qualified with "Assuming" not "It does".

#2 STILL Nitpicking the information that is not fully understood by you or me? Sarcasm not appreciated as it does not contribute to your argument. Try some respect because your lack of it is rather tired and old.

#3 This is common knowledge, and while that would lower overall damage yeild, A summoner invited ONLY for double attack auraing and told not to pact would be on the scale of effect of a redmage only invited for temper. In which case again my argument is supported that it might be MORE useful to have a cor providing the double attack roll than a redmage and a corsair. Someone would need to do the math but i still think 3 good DD with more double attack wouldnt beat 4 DD and unless you are going to remove the whitemage from this specific party in that situation and make the redmage and cor double up for heal duty.

#4 This is more useful and thankyou for giving me someone to ask, however even in your statement here you show that you havent seen any information from this source that says a rate over 50% can be achieved. While i dont doubt there is a possability (especially post 75 cap) thats still no concrete evidence.

Additional note; Yes Twilight belt isnt good for monk, but its not exactly bad persay, i use a brown belt because they made it nigh-impossible to get a black belt these days. However if you are capping haste, stacking MORE haste over something that provides other benefits (double attack?) would be a bit of a waste. Not everyone has a blackbelt still and like i said, some monks use them, not all. If you leveled monk and didnt have a black belt, you could have reason to use a t-belt. Or if you do have one and dont need say your leg slot to be that 6% haste, again you could switch it out.

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1) Crit damage caps at 100% and the Ranger forums are retarded. They removed the cap on this ages ago.

Recasts are uncapped as of the level 99 patch. Testing has shown that you can break -80% recast. No one's bothered to see if it's an 87.5% cap or not, though. I'm lazy and don't really care since 80%+ is nice enough.

Name the other "few things" that cap at 50%. Nothing does. PDT and MDT only.

2) Who says I don't "fully understand" jack shit? There is no known cap on Double Attack aside from 100%.

3) Nah. Red Mage can actually do its job while also casting Temper. A Summoner has to very specifically not do their job in order to give auras. Also, there is no reason why a Corsair would use Fighter's Roll in the current build of the game period.

4) Last time I read his findings it was pretty clear that DA could go over 50%. I simply don't care enough to go dig them up because someone who still thinks Recast and Crit Damage cap at 50% wants to conjecture about shit he obviously doesn't understand. If you want to make bullshit claims about DA caps, you do the work to back them up - not me.

If you're over-capping Haste with brown, adjust your other TP gear. Twilight is shit. Melee Gloves +2 and Ganesha's Mask are both far superior options to ditching the leg slot. Calmecac are shit. Don't make excuses for shit-tier gear.

Edit: Before I'm called rude one more time, how fair do you think it is to any casual observer reading this thread when you make up some stupid bullshit about DA capping at 50%? How many people do you think might skim this and get the wrong impression, leaving and re-reporting your out-of-nowhere assertion as if it were solid fact?

You yourself quote the "Ranger forums" as a place that told you that Crit Damage caps at 50%. It bloody doesn't. Don't pull shit out of your ass and expect to not get called on it post-haste. It's stupid shit like your "Supposition" that allowed bullshit rumors like "CHR enhances provoke" and "Moon phase affects HQ rate" to survive for so long.

You cannot substitute supposition for fact. When you post blatantly wrong information, you will get called out. Yes, it's your bloody job to prove it.

Looked it up, crit damage caps at 100%, my mistake, recast however according to wiki has not changed, unless you mean cast time.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Recast_Time

As for everything else, honestly, i just dont care about your opinion anymore. You're behaving like a child throwing a temper tantrum, detracting the thread once again, slinging insults and frankly, im done with your garbage personality. I think i will take a piece of advice and block you, not because you dissagree with me but id rather have someone who can dissagree with me without spitting all over themselves and getting into a keyboard pounding, gorilla rage.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

uMad to the nth degree. Take a few dozen chill pills and stop posting for a week or something.

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I couldnt have said it better. Thanks for providing the perfect quote to take out of context.

Lolwiki is lol. There's a reason it's updated infrequently and is missing new information.

Get your facts sorted then you won't get called out for posting wrong info.

Getting called out helps me learn new information that has changed or that i didnt know for sure. Getting called out and then treated like shit for it doesnt help me learn anything and just makes me lose faith in my peers on ffxi and the internet.

Should have abandoned hope a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

I think the main problem with RDM as a job is that SE has no idea on what this job should be.

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This is exactly the problem, and it stems in large part from the RDM community. Large in part to the fact that melee conversation eventually takes over every thread and delves into a no you can't yes I can pissing contest. (I am quite surprised this thread has managed to survive this long tbh) Our community lacks the ability to present a clear focus to the issues surrounding this job.

The issue I personally have and I think other RDM's should have is trying to ask for boosts in areas that are already clogged with jobs, namely melee and nuking. (SE has already stated that they are adjusting healing as a whole which while it does buff WHM, it will also give SCH and RDM that boost they need, if they do it properly).

This leaves Enfeebling and Enhancing, which really go hand in hand with each other, however both systems are broken currently. Enfeebling in general, and Enhancing with SE restricting our ability to buff.

This is why I made this thread because it is in my opinion the only place where RDM can truly be balanced in party play, and most importantly attain a party slot. By adjusting Enhancing and Enfeebling as suggested in the original post it puts RDM on a pedestal over WHM and BLM, (who are also on their own pedestals) and indirectly buffs SCH to move above these jobs in this regard as well. It also puts RDM on a pedestal over SCH, who in turn is better at healing and nuking.

Considering all of out abilities stack with other support it does not step on the toes of your COR's BRD's or DNC'
s, and to an extent SMN's (who have their own issues.)

As a community we have to get behind one solid idea and keep blasting SE with it, I have little faith in that occurring, and I am not saying my Idea is the one to go with. I just feel it is the best opportunity to see us wanted for group play again, because I am 99% sure we won't get that slot with better melee, nuking, or healing, and if we do get buffed to that point, you can bet your ass a shit storm will be brewing in the WHM, BLM, SCH, <insert other nuking class, healing class, melee class here> forums. Which will result in a nerf, or subsequent buffs to those classes that will put us back in the same spot.

A BRD or COR or DNC won't care if we can buff/debuff because our support spells stack with theirs, the only one who might take issue with it is SMN, but this adjustment I laid out doesn't really change the impact SMN already feels for the worse, SMN is in a shitty spot already and it won't change if RDM is more capable enhancer and debuffer since SMn doesn't stack currently anyway.

But ya, we need to give SE a clear idea of what we want, I feel making us the king of support mages is what we need.

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

You have a really valid point here that I did not think about. If the design team was to remove the self-target + no Accession restriction on RDM gain spells it would allow him/her a lot more options on how to buff a group vs. a WHM's Boost-spells. Overall, RDM gains a unique feature with out becoming a lesser version of a WHM.

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Yeah too bad that isn't going to happen. A lot of what if and not a lot of actual substance. You guys just don't read the Dev posts or something?

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

You must not know what italics represent in lists, or have read anything I typed earlier. We are talking about what allowing our spells to work allows for please keep up.

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Oh ok that makes everything more clear. You just don't want to look at what dev's are posting and only want to talk about what you think they should do. Excellent. So you just don't pay attention.

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

Having just read SE's recent announcements on PLD and DRK, it is pretty sad that they can't even stop by and say here is the direction we have in mind for RDM. Honestly updating Shield Bash and Weapon Bash was a priority? what with DNC having violent flourish on a short recast and BLU with their hand full of stuns already.

Would be nice to have some feedback SE. What is the jobs purpose, where do you see it going forward. 8 years of silence is pathetic.

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See you are starting to get it. Most of us have been here for the last year. Lots of crickets. Not a lot of updates. Lots of in-fighting.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Should have abandoned hope a long time ago.

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Love you <3

Well mage actually, a lot of people have gotten behind the "copy all active buffs on the rdm to a party member" idea, or have come to that conclusion on their own terms, that could be our driving force. It would force cycles, yet at the same time be less tedius because it would be 1 cycle that grants all the buffs, rather than cycling haste/temper/refresh/etc. It would also do away with the need to cast single aoe of each spell or single target versions, though it would be harder to offer specialized buff packages, when everyone gets regen II, refresh II, phalanx, stoneskin, aquaveil, a gainspell, temper, protect and shell (maybe) and enspell, haste, and possibly 2 barspells, its hard to complain. And if there was a buff that wasnt wanted (enspell?) They could remove it themselves.

I dunno who came up with it first, i know i was one of the earlier ones to suggest it back but someone likely beat me to it, but it seems like a lot of us like it. Maybe thats what we need to push for, and right now more than ever since theyre taking a look at each job and making changes.

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See you are starting to get it. Most of us have been here for the last year. Lots of crickets. Not a lot of updates. Lots of in-fighting.

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Well I guess its a good thing Ive been dealing with it for 7 years then isn't it...

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Well mage actually, a lot of people have gotten behind the "copy all active buffs on the rdm to a party member" idea, or have come to that conclusion on their own terms, that could be our driving force.

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I don't like this idea because again it carries with it the limitations of not buffing others. Not everyone benefits from the same spells, and an ability like this would hardly be on a short timer (at best 10 minute minimum akin to BLU AoE JA). I am not opposed to the idea of being able to AoE buffs, but we have a few great "buffs" that are AoE in nature.

Dia III is AoE ATK + for anyone able to attack the mob
BIO III is AoE DEF + for anyone able to be attacked by the mob
Gravity is AoE ACC + for anyone able to attack the mob
Blind is AoE evasion + for anyone able to be attacked by the mob
Enpell II's is AoE Meva - (elemental dependant) for anyone casting on the mob
Death Blosom is AoE Meva - (all elements) for anyone casting on the mob

I like the premise of the idea, but I just can't see it being introduced functionally. Especially considering the amount of benefit we already give on the mob, not just to the party, or ally, but to anyone who can attack it. (again providing SE fixes enfeebling, and enhancing.)

I would like to see Haste and Refresh I (at least) AoE'd, simply because SCH now has access to those, and it would leave the choice of Refresh II to the RDM, and TBH some jobs just don't benefit from Refresh like others, and could live with a refresh 1. It would allow WHM to benefit as well, and if SE did allow RDM to cap haste higher than other jobs then it would give us even more reason to be invited.

The only buffs we cycle are haste and refresh with potentially gain and temper looking at 8 seconds per specific party member, or around 48 seconds (worst case assuming 4 buffs per person) every 5 minutes or so. With 6 debuffs you are looking at about a minute casting ever 5 minutes, leaving you 4 minutes to do other things such as melee, nuke, heal.

4 minutes is a lot of time.

Agreed but its still a widely supported idea, something already a lot have gotten behind, and if we make it clear how we need/want it (perhaps make it into a charge system or something?) then we can have a better management of it. And yeah not all jobs need refresh, but not all jobs need temper in the same situation, but a war would get both as would a whm, so its kinda win/win, with the only hitch being when it comes to the gains needing to be personalized, but in some instances, those can be changed between casts. And even if the recast was long, i dunno, maybe being able to supercharge a DD or tank throughout the battle would be pretty handy, maybe earn us a slot in tank parties in events. Just brainstorming.

As long as this jazzed up idea of "Support Mage" involves no concept of melee integration, I will not be for it. Cry about derails, epeens, or how it always inevitably comes up, but when there is no incentive to be swinging with a party, the job is not matching its concept and can more easily be replaced by another job with their higher tiers on spells, AoEs, or spells/abilities RDM doesn't even get at all. Meanwhile, one should not be looking to BLUs as a sudden brick wall for RDM progression or even a RDM substitute. They're just different paths to the same goal in a combat caster like MNK and WAR are DDs of their own flavor.

Personally ive never been a fan of AoE on RDM, if it is allowed with enhancing then why can we not do it with enfeebling, or nuking or healing.

I actually thought of a charge based system at work today based on enfeebling but talked myself out of it simply because we already have such a system in place currently that SE is restricting. Like I said above the only spells that would really benefit from AoE are haste and refresh. I mean cor and brd have these...

But they are also limited to the buffs they can apply, the short list of AoE buffs we have is already larger then a standard BRD or COR, adding even more on I think is to much (asking for accession is probably to much). COR and BRD (the other primary support jobs are limited in the buffs they can cast. Considering we already have more secondary tools then either job, and require less upkeep then BRD, and that our buffs are able to be cancelled should we not want them (expcept debuff buff's) I just don't think that the idea is practical. I think Accession is the answer and limited to spells a SCH has access to (Haste Refresh I).

I don't mean to sound discouraging or pig headish, but I just can not see a reason to argue for something that has limited use or is impractical. Especially in the current BALANCE craze. BRD's and COR's would not be happy with us supplying 4+ AoE buffs when they can only only do 4 and 2 (respectively).

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As long as this jazzed up idea of "Support Mage" involves no concept of melee integration, I will not be for it.

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Then argue for melee improvements, and the join the list of SAM, WAR, MNK, DRG, DRK, THF, NIN, DNC, BST, PUP, RNG fighting for a party slot as a DD. Being a support mage opens up our access to secondary skills in the past this defaulted us to backline duties only, but RDM can easily cap haste, can cap ACC, can hit ATK levels similar to other one handers, has a much smaller casting load thanks to AFv3 and higher fast cast tier.

All of our secondary skill sets are supported by the support mage idea now, the most important aspect being, actually being invited to an event as a RDM. (and not just to proc bitch it.)

Being the best support mage id rather compete with a spot with nobody, and apply my secondary sklls (healing nuking melee) as I deem required from there.

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Originally Posted by Crimson_Slasher

Agreed but its still a widely supported idea, something already a lot have gotten behind, and if we make it clear how we need/want it (perhaps make it into a charge system or something?) then we can have a better management of it.

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Yeah, this is what I was getting at on page four. I'm in support of this and agree it might be an idea to thrash it out between the community to get it in a workable form (ie easy to implement and effective for the job).

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Originally Posted by Seriha

As long as this jazzed up idea of "Support Mage" involves no concept of melee integration, I will not be for it.

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How about then this proposed idea of "self-buff to single-target party member enhancement transfer" is activated with TP rather than a JA with an unsatisfactory cooldown timer or an additional Charges system? That way it's still something you can do if you're back-line and not changing your staff (only a limited restriction for a single TP build), but encourages the quicker TP building performed whilst meleeing.

I won't sit here and say there's a single way to pull it off, but a past idea of mine involved letting enspell damage build into a pool similar to Solace boosting divine nukes with Cures or even Cura being boosted by the WHM taking damage. In this case, I also wanted to create two styles, one pandering to a RDM wishing to be more offensive through boosting the potency of enfeebles and nukes, while the more defensive style would boost the potency and duration of all buffs.

For example, some people want Haste II. As a standalone spell, I don't want it because it does little to address RDM's overall issues. Would it be handy? Sure. Now, let's say with the above, having 75 points of Enspell damage built up would boost Haste to 20% potency with a 6 minute duration. That'll roughly translate to 3 good hits from a RDM with capped skill, be it T1s or T2s. From a grossly simplistic level, you could just have Enspell damage build points like DNC steps regardless of damage done. Either way, if you want the RDM's spells to make the party even better, the RDM can't just be chillin' in the back rarely exposing themselves to risk. Even if their hit-for-hit damage never competes with a WAR, they'll still want to be as best as possible while offering their supportive benefits brought about their engagement.

Now, the offensive end would function similarly, with a fully buffed Slow II being more like a Slow III if SE were to ever add it. My ideal when translating to nukes is to be close to a maxed magian staff in potency. As a result, the staves will still be better, but we're not so depressingly behind in damage if we opt to keep our TP generating weapon equipped, which also handles the problem of TP being lost when swapping that often cripples our hybrid style.

But the big point here is it has to be worth it. It has to do enough to offset arguments of poor damage and TP feed. It has to do enough to warrant a party slot. I still stand behind the belief the job needs gear better tailored for its diversity, and I'm not talking about watered down junk where you're better off having Uber Mage Armor and Uber Melee Armor anyway. If it's something a job needs to perform its role, don't hold back.

The only reason the above is likely to never happen is because it would require some genuine effort on SE's part to pull off. It while require them going through virtually every spell in RDM's arsenal and modify them to differ based on their "stance" chosen. I also noted increasing durations on the defensive side because once you're done doling out the buffs (even better with the +2 set), you can hop over to being more offensive until it comes time to rebuff.

Otherwise, I can go back in time and lament about how we wanted something similar to SCH's Immanence stratagem or Accession/Diffusion. Or how some of DNC's JAs would've been nice for us if the job didn't exist. But they do and they're not going anywhere. Overall, I have no interest in repeating RDM's old days as a pink mage, and become wary of that whenever backline adjustments are the sole point of interest with the assumption it would fix all the job's ills. RDM's melee game was an issue long before the cap increases. And while it's unfortunate it took other jobs growing more readily while RDM stagnated for people to share my sentiment that the job wasn't that awesome, some of the cards SE played (Enfeebling crashing as a consequence of solo abuse) were just salt on the wound.

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

but RDM can easily cap haste, can cap ACC, can hit ATK levels similar to other one handers, has a much smaller casting load thanks to AFv3 and higher fast cast tier.

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Where did you get similar levels of atk when we have Bs and everyone else has As?

I won't argue on easily capping haste, because it's really not hard to figure out how to do it. But compared to other jobs it is actual effort unless you are content with a Zelus Tiara...which I'm not since you are wasting a slot on nothing but haste. Head Brisk and Brego are both much nicer versions of head pieces but require an Ephemeron or Aug'd Blood Scale Mail to get a decent TP set.


If you want to make me happy, go look at Rubeus Spats and then make all of RDM follow that mold.

Calmecac Trousers beats Rubeus unless you're having accuracy issues.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

I won't argue on easily capping haste, because it's really not hard to figure out how to do it. But compared to other jobs it is actual effort unless you are content with a Zelus Tiara...which I'm not since you are wasting a slot on nothing but haste. Head Brisk and Brego are both much nicer versions of head pieces but require an Ephemeron or Aug'd Blood Scale Mail to get a decent TP set.


If you want to make me happy, go look at Rubeus Spats and then make all of RDM follow that mold.

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Wasting a slot on just haste... seriously did you just write that...

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How about then this proposed idea of "self-buff to single-target party member enhancement transfer" is activated with TP rather than a JA with an unsatisfactory cooldown timer or an additional Charges system? That way it's still something you can do if you're back-line and not changing your staff (only a limited restriction for a single TP build), but encourages the quicker TP building performed whilst meleeing.

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Thought about this TP thing today at work and I don't think it is a good idea, not the effect itself but horse shoeing the job into one role is restrictive. This would force people to melee a job, and not everyone likes to melee, in a sense it is a reverse of forcing people into a backline only role, instead it forces people into a front line only role in order to apply buffs.

Again it comes down to base principle, and at the root of it all is the fact we have some nice buffs that are unable to be cast, and some nice debuffs that are all or nothing or immune outright. In order to discuss new abilities or improved abilities RDM first needs its current abilities to work, when that happens more avenues will be open to the job, mostly because we will actually get a party slot based on preforming a role. From there we can find out what we need to be better in group play.

Getting invites based on the job being useful should be our first priority, streamlining that usefulness is something we do after, who knows there might not be a problem at all, at least from my number crunching we are looking at 1 minute every 5 spent casting buffs/debuffs, 20% is not that bad, it is a lot better then the 33% time spent at level 75, when we were still capable of providing healing, nuking and melee on top of buffing debuffing.

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Where did you get similar levels of atk when we have Bs and everyone else has As?

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Similar does not mean the same, it means it shares a likeness, I can break 600ATK on my RDM, I can also break 600 ATK on my PLD, I can cap haste on my RDM, I can cap haste on my PLD, I can cap ACC on my RDM I can cap ACC on my PLD. A skills are not that far ahead, 26 ATK is the difference from A+ to B, it is a marginal advantage.

But my PLD can't nuke, my PLD can barely heal, my PLD can't buff, my PLD can't debuff. So Ill happily call 398 Skill vs 424 skill balance, at least until my PLD can start shooting laser beams from its ass for 1.2K DMG.


Also Scat man...haste is statistically the best stat, and if gravity were to work on mobs we wouldn't have to worry about ACC basically ever. No job would really outside of natural skill, incidental dex and acc on gear, just the way it should be.

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

at least until my PLD can start shooting laser beams from its ass for 1.2K DMG

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Divine Emblem + Holy II.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Calmecac Trousers beats Rubeus unless you're having accuracy issues.




Wasting a slot on just haste... seriously did you just write that...

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The item itself has a large variety of different stats that aren't overpowered when you put them together because they don't mult each other but it still allows you to have a lot of what you want. I'm not giving up my 'cac Trousers just because they make me look like an indian, much less how awesome they are.

And yes I did say waste a slot on only haste, when you could cap haste with other equipment and get more stats, like STR, DEX, atk, acc, or Store TP.

RDM is already missing good equipment. No reason to waste even more equipment that you do have because you are wasting a slot on something you could have had more stats on.

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

Also Scat man...haste is statistically the best stat, and if gravity were to work on mobs we wouldn't have to worry about ACC basically ever. No job would really outside of natural skill, incidental dex and acc on gear, just the way it should be.

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Can't disagree on that, but I'm just saying that RDM has low Atk and Enspells don't work on WSs. Inferior by design isn't something I just say all the time, it's what's wrong with RDM right now. We don't have anything to make up for lack of higher tier spells or lower skill proficiency. They forgot to give us those. Thus why we are behind.

RDM attack is no different then other 1 handers, and our gearing options are very similar, we have the same ACC for the most part (a difference 11) which means we are either all eating Mear (or buns) all eating pizza, or all eating sushi. RDM is statistically identical for the most part to other 1 handers. The biggest issue is that for swords we are dependent on CDC (being left off Vorpal, and to an extent Sanguine hurts) and are limited in our choice of daggers (RDM caps off I think at 41 D dagger, while even BRD can get the 50DMG DGRs with STR and ATK on them.)

This isn't a job issue really, this is SE being retarded and forgetting the RDM has 2 primary melee choices. Of course they will probably tell you its balance. One weapon requires an EMP to be useful, and the other is useful but has no solid dagger options other than maybe Twilight.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, but a RDM doesn't need to gear any differently then other 1 handers, and we are all about the same place stat wise, and gear wise (sans weapons.)

and before you reply I mean to say when i type "no different" as arguing over a fraction of a % in damage increase is retarded. During the TP phase Enspell/Enspell II's put RDM over the top of other sword users and nearly on par with other dagger users, its in WSD we are limited (enspells not working, our access to stat specific equipment for WS mods on swords, and our daggers lacking the same base D as other users.) Then again we can technically gear swap to a 2K MB, if we bothered to skill chain at all anymore. Meaning we can technically do more damage over the course of a WS cycle than most jobs, but paper doesn't equal reality. Unfortunately SE knows that we have the ability to do this which is why you will likely not see RDM put on comparable gear and WS's to other sword users, or on daggers with other dagger users. It sucks, but its the direction we as a community chose.

But since SE has their Zerg hard on from ToAU still this will likely never change. Unless SE themselves make content require a steady methodical kill at which point SC's greatly increase kill speed (as seen in old distortion parties).

Also to clarify the OP some.

I don't think RDM is in a (terribly) bad spot (it is still a great job), and this isn't intended solely for RDM fixes. This as I mentioned is in the same vein as Healing Skill allowing jobs with native healing magic skill to surpass those who are using it as a subjob, a /WHM or /RDM healing for the same HP as a main WHM or RDM with C4 is stupid.

It is equally stupid that a /WHM or /RDM can buff or debuff (with enough MACC which is abundant on BRD for example) as well as these jobs (for the most part I understand that some spells are going to land a bit stronger but we are talking minimal % difference).

This is what this idea is meant to convey, the fact that a job casting spells with half the skill of a main job is matching (or nearly) matching the potential of the main job.

/SCH is fine, and should allow support jobs the ability to get higher skill, it is fine because /SCH doesn't really have any buffs/debuffs worth mentioning.

The fact that certain buffs and debuffs are restricted is just a slap in the face, the fact that these buffs/debuffs (indirect buffs in the case of Gravity) are available on other jobs (and can stack with RDM spells) is just a kick in the balls.