[Suggestion] How to reintroduce HNMLS gameplay in FFXI Lv99‏

I respect the OP for his well formed, and thought out Post. However, I don't think HNMs are going to bring back what you're really after. Emotions.

Think of it like this, You're remembering how much excitement you felt back when you got the Rare item you wanted, or what have you. In a sense, You're trying to recapture the excitement of that first victory, or the first rare item you got.

I remember the first piece of Sky gear i got, Hecatomb Feet, Loved them to death, Was so happy. Only later masked by Valor Surcoat, and Valor Cape.

But you have to remember, What you're doing is essentially trying to relive your best moments. its like when people try to play new MMOs, basically trying to recapture that feeling of awe they felt when they played their first MMO.

Its like your first real girlfriend/relationship. Sure other relationships are nice, but none will quite match that mystery, or excitement, of that first real intimate relationship.

Basically, what you're asking for won't bring you want you're seeking, Excitement or Emotion. Its really quite simple, Its like an Old man dreaming of his youth, You're wanting something you can't have.

Even if they brought back world spawn HNMs, It won't give you the excitement you felt back then. Nothing will. Its only natural :|.

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I want people to push hard, so sure. Kill new players easily, but make them understand that it was easy. Got to make the game feel natural, like something that anyone can do.

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Actually quite true, but it's sad at the same time that the primary source of enjoyment was not from the HNM itself but what was done to pass the time waiting for it to pop.

I ahve to agree, that even if the old HNM scene suddenly returned, you would not get the same emotional attachment to it now that you did then. I'ts just something that happens as time goes on.

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Originally Posted by Lafaiel

The problem with world HNM and this game though Hercule, this game is old, and many players that started long ago do not have the time to camp HNM anymore, most that were in college or young at the time now have wives and children, homes and bills to pay. Most of the older players cannot do that anymore but they are also the ones that stay around because of friends and time invested.

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I keep hearing this argument in several threads, and I completely understand it. Here's the thing, though, if people have grown up and won't stay up until 4AM anymore, wouldn't that make HNM camping better? The way HNMs were intended was to cycle through different timezones, so every region would get a shot at claiming it (hence the 21h-24h repop window). If the window got to early, you had two choices: either screw over your schedule to camp it, or leave it to the guys in the respective timezone. And in older days, people would always choose the first option. However, if now people start being more casual about it and not give a crap, wouldn't that system start to work out? People would camp it when it's in their timezone, and others would camp it in their timezones. Effectively the rate at which your schedule agrees with the NM window will be smaller (say from 6PM to 12AM instead of 4PM to 4AM), however, since that will likely affect people from all over the globe, the competition in that smaller personal window will also be less. Sure, there will be some people who do have more free time, and they'll still show up in your HNM window, but some also won't.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Sure, just like I don't have to go to work, or pay my bills. But guess what? Nobody likes partying with a smelly homeless scrub. In game or out.

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I also hear this argument over and over, and I completely agree with it. However, there are ways to counter that, ways that SE employed for the last few years: make alternate routes to obtain said gear. Abjurations could be obtained from Einherjar, Black Belt items from KS99, most other things were not exclusive and could be bought. So in the end doing HNM camping wasn't as much about obtaining items as it was about selling them and making money. There were only a handful of notable HNM drops and even they became money items after a while (Ridill and Hauteclaire) and the only item I remember that no LS would sell was Defending Ring. And none of them were required in any way or even gave a significant edge over other items (again, excluding Defending Ring). I don't remember a single time hearing a WAR wouldn't get invited without a Ridill (or Adaberk, for that matter, but that's another story) or a PLD without a Hauteclaire (or Defending Ring).

Could you agree with a system that doesn't force you to participate, but only offers you additional ways to get to new content? It feels to me like most people will simply want to be part of endgame, but don't want to be part of the HNM scene, which is why they're against it. Which is something I can agree with, but if the game indeed offers alternate routes and if people are indeed more mature and casual these days, it shouldn't be hard to find people who simply don't do HNMs (or just casual HNMs), but still everything else endgame.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Even if they brought back world spawn HNMs, It won't give you the excitement you felt back then. Nothing will. Its only natural :|.

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Very nice post. Very sad too, but very true. Even I don't believe HNMs will ever be what they used to be (or, for that matter, FFXI itself). I just don't see anything wrong with adding something optional that people used to enjoy (if it is indeed optional, SE would have to make an effort to design a good system for it). I have to admit, I was also more attached to the emotion that came with the experience of camping HNMs than HNM camping itself. Your post was a bit of an (maybe unwanted) eye-opener. I'm starting to wonder whether I'd enjoy HNMs as much if it was new again.

Well, I think part of that is though, if they released new HNMs and an alternative route to getting tthe items they drop (einherjar, BCNM), most people will prob just do the alternative route so while others will be able to camp HNMs again, they wont get that same excitement since there wouldn't be as much competition for them and creating that drama they seem to like.

Also, with the way the game has gone (not needed large LS to get things done, even something like VW is done more so through shouting and seeing up runs though seacom), I don't think many people would be willing to join a larger LS again to fight such nms (after all, more people = more chance to claim)

I do understand what you mean, but I think in the end, adding HNMs along with alternate routes to getting their drops, won't accomplish what people really want when it comes to HNMs.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I also hear this argument over and over, and I completely agree with it. However, there are ways to counter that, ways that SE employed for the last few years: make alternate routes to obtain said gear. Abjurations could be obtained from Einherjar, Black Belt items from KS99, most other things were not exclusive and could be bought. So in the end doing HNM camping wasn't as much about obtaining items as it was about selling them and making money. There were only a handful of notable HNM drops and even they became money items after a while (Ridill and Hauteclaire) and the only item I remember that no LS would sell was Defending Ring. And none of them were required in any way or even gave a significant edge over other items (again, excluding Defending Ring). I don't remember a single time hearing a WAR wouldn't get invited without a Ridill (or Adaberk, for that matter, but that's another story) or a PLD without a Hauteclaire (or Defending Ring).

Could you agree with a system that doesn't force you to participate, but only offers you additional ways to get to new content? It feels to me like most people will simply want to be part of endgame, but don't want to be part of the HNM scene, which is why they're against it. Which is something I can agree with, but if the game indeed offers alternate routes and if people are indeed more mature and casual these days, it shouldn't be hard to find people who simply don't do HNMs (or just casual HNMs), but still everything else endgame.

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There's really no way around the fact that they would be botted. It's a terrible idea, regardless of how it's implemented.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

There's really no way around the fact that they would be botted. It's a terrible idea, regardless of how it's implemented.

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If it's implemented in a traditional sense, yes. Something like what the OP suggested would make botting impossible.

Regardless, my point was that if there was an alternate route, people wouldn't have to put up with botting (or not botting, whatever the case my be). People could ignore it altogether if they didn't wanna be a part of it.

Funny story, the other HNM proponents don't like HNMs for the battles. They like it for the drama, the botting, and the trash talk.

You can't say "They can implement world spawns without those!" because they wouldn't be world spawns. Random claims wouldn't make most of these people truly happy either unless they were one of the shells that couldn't afford (or were too slow to buy) NASA.

Besides, random claims just puts emphasis on the number of bodies you have present rather than any sort of skill. That's the single worst facet of HNMs and hardly needs to be extrapolated even further.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

If it's implemented in a traditional sense, yes. Something like what the OP suggested would make botting impossible.

Regardless, my point was that if there was an alternate route, people wouldn't have to put up with botting (or not botting, whatever the case my be). People could ignore it altogether if they didn't wanna be a part of it.

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The only way people could avoid it entirely is if it had nothing worth doing it for. In his system, people would just use bots to cap valor points or w/e currency they use for it on 1,000 mule accounts.

Even if no one found a way to cheat, that claim system is almost completely random once everyone has points, meaning people could do it forever and never get the drop no matter how good they are. There seriously is no way to make a cheat free lottery / timed spawn NM system. The whole concept of Timed and lottery spawns is poor. If people want to waste hours / days / weeks camping an NM, Argus still has a good drop. Have fun.

Chram was outdated when Visions of Abyssea was released.

HNMs= so many tears. Can you imagine the outrage? It was be.. chaos on these forums. The rivers of tears would be epic.
It would be down right cruel.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

The only way people could avoid it entirely is if it had nothing worth doing it for. In his system, people would just use bots to cap valor points or w/e currency they use for it on 1,000 mule accounts.

Even if no one found a way to cheat, that claim system is almost completely random once everyone has points, meaning people could do it forever and never get the drop no matter how good they are. There seriously is no way to make a cheat free lottery / timed spawn NM system. The whole concept of Timed and lottery spawns is poor. If people want to waste hours / days / weeks camping an NM, Argus still has a good drop. Have fun.

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You forgot some points on my system,

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Each player in range when an VHNM pop, will lost a Valor Enmity point even if he dont claim you or your team, if you are already @ 0/50 "Valor Enmity" you will loose nothing.

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So this mean the mule with 50/50 Valor pts will lost 1 pts on each pop in her range, if the guy dont go farm new valor point to buy new valor enmity point, his mule will become 0/50 and claim 0,01% of pop over the people with 50/50~, and this should be long to get one enmity valor point (idk maybe 3 hours of exp farm for 1 Valor enmity pts, so this mean about 150 hours of farming for the 50 Valor Enmity pts~ this even should avoid people to camp everyday, and monopolize camp, and made a natural turn over).

And this in the context of 6 man Exp pt mandatory to farm Valor pts, no SMN burn, no leech possible, only a real pt of 6 real guy should be able to farm thoses "Valor exp" properly.

And there is another point i thinked to avoid abusive mule claim:

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Any player should be able to join or leave the party after the claim, but only players that was in the party/alliance during the claim will be able to get their Key Item that boost drop rate used when the VHNM die. (without the Key Item the drop rate shoud be realy low for personnal treasure, like a VoidWatch without cell, so better to not change the party setup after claim).

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So this mean what it mean, better not change the setup exept if its vital to get the win.

problem solved TBH:, must be lv99, sky,sea,all expansion packs complete and mini expansion packs complete , and one player per alliance/account/credit card to get these whatever-you-call-em points.

if someone wants to go through the trouble of trying to bring 20 mules in this case, well then, that dude can have it because that is sad tbh.

The only ones that "miss" the old HNM days are the botters & those who paid loads of money for bots. I don't miss that one bit, now if only SE would do more to get rid of botters & RMT rather then sweep it under the rug...

I only miss "old school" parties, made many friends...sure you can in GoV burns & Dom ops...if no ones sleeping or leeching, I remember if someone leeched in a party they where kicked lol, even if gone for more then...idk 10 mins "that person is leeching, kick him." now its "that persons the sync...so kick him when hes lvl 26" (I know you don't level sync in Dom ops...>_>)

Well see, the thing is, SE implemented new world HNMs. It's called voidwatch. I'm not quite sure why this goes over so many heads. So, I'll sound like a broken record here and repeat myself once more: They already gave us voidwatch as the new world HNM. It's obvious by now VW is what they meant when they commented ages ago that new HNMs were in the works. Considering the direction it took, I would not hold my breathe for "old HNM" to make a return. Not when they are also talking about fafhogging the remaining ground HNM in the game(so like if you missed that little tidbit you better start bleeping killing the hell out of anything you need to kill before it's too late and they make a system worse than what they did to faf/behe/adaman to try to "fix" the complaints last time around. Right now, more or less these f'ers are up and bored of not being killed 24/7 except for DI and Sandworm maybe, depending on your server and whether or not someone is wasting their time with farming them for gil)

ya..... or we could ask for fun content!?

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And this in the context of 6 man Exp pt mandatory to farm Valor pts, no SMN burn, no leech possible, only a real pt of 6 real guy should be able to farm thoses "Valor exp" properly

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There is no way to prevent people from using <insert strategy here> to kill monsters. You can limit the number of people, but that's about it. You are very anti-SMN for some reason that I don't know why, but there is no way to prevent "SMN burns" (Which no one does any more anyway) without nerfing SMN into the ground, which it doesn't need because it's already an unpopular job to begin with.

Basically, you're against any way people might concieveably think of to make something easier than you personally want it to be. That's kind of selfish. Why should everyone else have to suffer because *you* enjoy things a certain way that other people don't?

If people want to throw pets at a monster, there's nothing wrong with that. If they want to kite, there's nothing wrong with that. If people want ot use their 2-hours, be it astral flow or any other, there's nothing wrong with that. They're all allowed, legitimate tactics in the game. If you don't like a tactic, you don't have to use it, just like you told me. But who are you to say other people shouldn't be allowed to do it? If you want something to be a challenge in this game, you have the power to choose challenge. No matter what you come up with, people will find some ideal way of doing it that requires less effort. It's human nature to find the path of least resistance.

TL;DR: If you don't want to read all that, then just know that like everyone else here has said, The only people that truly enjoyed the HNM scene were the ones that had the power to claim whatever they wanted (or wipe whoever did claim it so they can steal it) whenever they wanted. Anybody else doesn't miss any part of it except the experience of fighting the monster itself.

I dont have any problem with SMN, i have only problem with some "glitch" that make a team become "half of the PT afk leeching something"
We are in a videogame right? the gameplay is everything, why would you like to stay sit AFK and win everything like that, where is the pleasure in that?
when i said:

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And this in the context of 6 man Exp pt mandatory to farm Valor pts, no SMN burn, no leech possible, only a real pt of 6 real guy should be able to farm thoses "Valor exp" properly

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I mean this should be impossible to get 1 or multi player afk/leeching doing nothing here without loosing anything.

I dont know who is selfish here, the guy that want a game with a solid gameplay/logic and teamwork, or the guy that want a game where you can afk and look the game working alone while you doing something else?

Yes, because I want to sit around for 10 hours waiting for LoO to pop. So I can out claim the RMT bots with steal, just so we can CFH before we whipe, because the main healer had to go mow the lawn.

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i have only problem with some "glitch" that make a team become "half of the PT afk leeching something"

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It's not a glitch, it's an allowed, legitimate tactic within the rules. It's also not really even used anymore.

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We are in a videogame right? the gameplay is everything, why would you like to stay sit AFK and win everything like that, where is the pleasure in that?

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I wouldn't call the EXP grinding the best part of FFXI's gameplay. These people simply want to get to the more fun parts sooner. Some people love EXPing, others don't and would prefer their game time to be content-driven instead.

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I dont know who is selfish here, the guy that want a game with a solid gameplay/logic and teamwork, or the guy that want a game where you can afk and look the game working alone while you doing something else?

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1) the gameplay mechanic you proposed is not solid and does not solve the inherent problems of world spawn HNMs.
2) You can't win any real fight by being AFK, and very few people are actually AFK as much as you imply. These people simply enjoy other parts of the game more than the EXP grinding. None of them are going to go AFK while fighting bahamut, or Pandy warden, or what-have-you. What's really so wrong with that? It's the sole reason SE doesn't take more actions to restrict power leveling. It almost sounds to me more like you're jealous that someone else leveled up faster than you did.
3) HNM camping is not fun at all. Only the fight itself is, and that's if you can deal with the annoyance, stress and frustration of competing against 30 other people also vying for the same thing you are. How is it fun when the "winner" is whoever is lucky enough to be given claim, or who has the fastest bot. Really, what part of that is fun? The thing I liked about HNM was the epic battles. I HATED the waiting, the competition, the different groups triyng to make eachother wipe, the 7 hour BST LS tiamats.
4) The HNM system actually causes a lot of AFKing. Think about it. When you spend most of the time at an HNM camp playing iSketch because there's absolutely nothing to do while you're waiting for the pop window, isn't that a sign of a badly designed mechanic? Be honest here. When you camp old-school HNMs, you spend more time not playing the game than actually playing it.

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Yes, because I want to sit around for 10 hours waiting for LoO to pop. So I can out claim the RMT bots with steal, just so we can CFH before we whipe, because the main healer had to go mow the lawn.

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Wins the thread.

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Originally Posted by Hercule

I dont know who is selfish here, the guy that want a game with a solid gameplay/logic and teamwork, or the guy that want a game where you can afk and look the game working alone while you doing something else?

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The latter is exactly what HNM camping was!

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Originally Posted by Camiie

The latter is exactly what HNM camping was!

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Yes you right for the camping part it was a little borring but i talk about the fact that you should not be able to win something in the game while leeching afk or something like that, about world pop HNM if SE could reintroduce new HNM like a single window "force pop" 23h~(To slowly get a change in the time zone) after time of dead should be perfect!

So you just know exactly when he will pop = no camping

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Originally Posted by Hercule

Yes you right for the camping part it was a little borring but i talk about the fast that you should cant win something in the game while leeching afk or something like that, about world pop HNM if SE could reintroduce new HNM like a single window "force pop" 23h~(To slowly get a change in the time zone) after time of dead should be perfect!

So you just know exactly when he will pop = no camping

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Whats the point again?

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Originally Posted by Hercule

Yes you right for the camping part it was a little borring but i talk about the fact that you should not be able to win something in the game while leeching afk or something like that, about world pop HNM if SE could reintroduce new HNM like a single window "force pop" 23h~(To slowly get a change in the time zone) after time of dead should be perfect!

So you just know exactly when he will pop = no camping

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So in otherwords, you hate with a passion and seek to go after anyone who wants to or gets something for less effort than you took, that's what this thread is really about.

Well, that's what the botters were doing essentially... turn on your bot and stare at the screen, don't gotta do a damn thing.

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So you just know exactly when he will pop = no camping

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knowing when something will pop doesn't eliminate camping. We've been able to know when many NMs will pop next since the game's inception- that doesn't stop camping, in fact it makes it worse. The only difference is the amount of time you have to wait. You also seem to love competition, in which case I would suggest a more PvP oriented game. Most people in this game DON'T like competition- they want to play the game on their own terms and not by the luck of whether you get to fight something or not (And it's only even luck if nobody is botting or nobody else is there).

Look, I really hate to tell you, but what you want isn't something many people want. Give me complex, fun, challenging fights. I want that. What I don't want is to fight with other players over who gets the chance to face that challenge.

I can't with this thread.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2mn5hxf.gif

I still miss world pop HNM alot! and i know a lot of people that miss them too, i just hope SE planning on something a day,
Would be cool to have any type of reply from SE staff

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Originally Posted by Hercule

-Most of the TOAU zone should be revamped for this since old exp mobs here are useless with Abyssea.

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No. Aht Urghan mobs make magic casting classes relatively useless outside of flans that were targets of manaburns. You'd be taking people out of abyssea where anyone can join the party and get something and thrusting them back into TP-burn onry colibri parties.

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-Theses mobs should be deseigned to be fight from old school 6 man Party.

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Ah, bringing back the "refresher" idiocy (because you know the devs would try to sneak it back in if they went with this idea). No thanks.

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Very few people want to keep traditional 6 man parties for anything other than battlefields/events. For EXP/similar activities, traditional parties tend to exclude many jobs and are very stressful and annoying to form.

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This.

necro bumping for the lose.

Do not want.

Do want. The more HNM the merrier.

I miss drama. It's a fucking MMORPG, a lack of drama is a lack of fun. You can say you hate drama, but we all know people love it. Drama isn't just the bad shit, it's like a story, good and bad. You will never see someone nearly as happy to get something today as they would have been years ago, and that's just sad. You'll never get to hear someone crying because they lost a drop or it got stolen, true, but it's in the same vein of, but not on the same level of, the US giving up major rights to protect themselves from the terrorists that want to put an end to their rights.

Teamwork and camaraderie is all but dead on a server-wide level. There's no social punishment for being a total douche, abyssea encourages low manning and stealing, and VW type drop systems remove LS government from events.

But it's okay, EVERYONE can get EVERYTHING, so it's okay right? That's so stupid. Everyone shouldn't be allowed the same things. If you can't/won't put in the work for a reward, then you shouldn't get the reward. It's like winning at the olympics, but then everyone who competed got a gold medal and a Wheaties cover. It's stupid.

Of course tjere will be some retards who will read my post the wrong way, there always are:

1) They'll say something about how I don't want everyone to be on equal footing and that's bad. That's not true, I want equal footing in game rules. I want equal rights for everyone, but the people who use and take advantage of those rights more should earn better rewards.

2) They'll say I want drama. You're damn straight I want drama. Just because you retards can't understand drama consists of more than bad things, and that the highs far outweigh the lows, doesn't mean everyone should suffer. It's the same as my example of giving up rights so your rights aren't taken. You're giving up more happiness so you don't have to deal with a blow to your happiness.

3) You want large groups! No shit I want large groups, it's an MMORPG. I'd rather need a group for everything thing than NIN/DNC or fire up a dual-boxed DD+WHM and profit. If you don't like groups, why don't you go get your ass on FFXII?

A lot of people complain about the old because they either never played the old game, or they're addicted to this new crack. Before they would work for long times and put actual effort in to get improvements to gear, and finally getting that gear would flood them with feel-goodness. Now they've been conditioned to get a constant flow of lesser feel-goodness, it's like a junkie constantly needing more to get the same high. The problem is, they can't increase how much more they get by playing more, they can only get more by SE lowering the standards and making it so they can get it faster. If this had continued, we'd eventually get to the point where all the good gear would be handed out by an NPC for free, and people would complain they needed to walk all the way to that NPC to get their items instead of it being d-boxed to them.

I think SE is taking the game in the right direction with the release of Legion. VW was a step in the right direction in an increase of difficulty, but the loot system and reliance on temps were both steps back. I like trials that involve sellable items, like the 99 Relic/Mythic/Emp line. Why? Because it puts everyone on even footing and gives you many ways to go about getting them. Seriously, you can buy 5 25mil marrows in a month of just Dyna farming, which isn't much for a large increase to some of the hands down most powerful weapons in the game. I like the idea of new nyzul, though I abhor the execution of a certain major point (Luck in climbing).

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Originally Posted by Return1

I miss drama. It's a fucking MMORPG, a lack of drama is a lack of fun. You can say you hate drama, but we all know people love it.

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Eh, I have a lot more fun without being yelled at by my own LS leadership and having to /blist everyone around who's not a member. While some people do probably love drama, I think you're just projecting your own ideas onto them.

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Drama isn't just the bad shit, it's like a story, good and bad. You will never see someone nearly as happy to get something today as they would have been years ago, and that's just sad. You'll never get to hear someone crying because they lost a drop or it got stolen, true, but it's in the same vein of, but not on the same level of, the US giving up major rights to protect themselves from the terrorists that want to put an end to their rights.

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I'll gladly sacrifice the occasional high to avoid the almost constant lows I felt before. There's nothing wrong with emotional BALANCE!! As far as terrorists and citizen's rights... I don't think this is the place for that discussion.

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Teamwork and camaraderie is all but dead on a server-wide level. There's no social punishment for being a total douche, abyssea encourages low manning and stealing, and VW type drop systems remove LS government from events.

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I've still seen people called out in Jeuno for scamming or other bad behaviors. My friends and I team up to do things just fine. I don't see a problem with encouraging low-manning, and I don't see how stealing is more promoted now than during the HNM days. My god back then people would pull out every dirty trick they could to get that Nidhogg off us, and we'd do the same to them. If you wiped all you got was laughed at. Nowadays while yes some people are still jerks about stealing, many more are likely to help you than were back in the old days. Just last night a duo wiped on an NM that we were also fighting. We claimed it before it depopped and allied them. They got their items and we got some +2s they didn't need. You think that would have happened in Dragon's Aery? I never saw it happen.

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But it's okay, EVERYONE can get EVERYTHING, so it's okay right? That's so stupid. Everyone shouldn't be allowed the same things. If you can't/won't put in the work for a reward, then you shouldn't get the reward. It's like winning at the olympics, but then everyone who competed got a gold medal and a Wheaties cover. It's stupid.

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Please. FFXI has never worked that way even during the height of Abyssea. You're grossly exaggerating and you know it. You think it's too easy, and that's fine but no one is being given a damn thing.

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Of course tjere will be some retards who will read my post the wrong way, there always are:

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Since what you typed below that line is meant only for "retards" I guess I'll just ignore it.

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Originally Posted by Return1

I miss drama. It's a fucking MMORPG, a lack of drama is a lack of fun. You can say you hate drama, but we all know people love it. Drama isn't just the bad shit, it's like a story, good and bad.

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So true. Competition added a lot to the game.

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Originally Posted by Return1

You will never see someone nearly as happy to get something today as they would have been years ago, and that's just sad.

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I don't know you, but I like you already.

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Originally Posted by Return1

You'll never get to hear someone crying because they lost a drop or it got stolen, true, but it's in the same vein of, but not on the same level of, the US giving up major rights to protect themselves from the terrorists that want to put an end to their rights.

Teamwork and camaraderie is all but dead on a server-wide level. There's no social punishment for being a total douche, abyssea encourages low manning and stealing, and VW type drop systems remove LS government from events.

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It removes the need for a Linkshell, period. However, there was also a lot of HNM stealing back in the day, so it's certainly not restricted to this era of the game.

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Originally Posted by Return1

But it's okay, EVERYONE can get EVERYTHING, so it's okay right?

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Depends who you ask, the casual crusaders seem to think so.

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Originally Posted by Return1

Everyone shouldn't be allowed the same things.

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They can if they are willing to earn/work for it.

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Originally Posted by Return1

If you can't/won't put in the work for a reward, then you shouldn't get the reward. It's like winning at the olympics, but then everyone who competed got a gold medal and a Wheaties cover. It's stupid.

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Doh, beat me to it.

Let me buy this man a beer.

I like Return1 to :)!



POWER TO THE HARDCORES!

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You will never see someone nearly as happy to get something today as they would have been years ago, and that's just sad.

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Not that i disagree or agree with the rest of your post, But thats simply called life.

Eventually things you enjoy you may come to no longer enjoy some day down the line. And doing something a second or third time will never be as exciting as doing it the first time.

Read my very first post in this thread, It fits for you as well. Bringing back HNMs and Drama won't bring back what you're looking for. You may think it will, But when you have it, You will come to find it was just a pipe-dream of recapturing what you felt early on in this games life.

I know sometimes i sit down and wish i could go back to the times of being level 50-55 on my THF, Leveling up in Aht-Urghan, but this time, not being terrible. Go back to the time of leveling jobs 1-10 (Which are my favorite levels). But nope...

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On one last point of Discussion. I know its an MMORPG, but large groups really hurt more than help. I can do low man events and still be on a linkshell with 40 people and get all the joy of Social interaction without being 29th in Line for the item i want. Thats why I enjoy Linkshells. They're for Social interaction!

Plus after reading your post closely, I'm 100% Positive you care nothing about HNMs or Legion, you just want exclusive/rare armor to afk in. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm seriously getting that vibe from you.

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Before they would work for long times and put actual effort in to get improvements to gear, and finally getting that gear would flood them with feel-goodness. Now they've been conditioned to get a constant flow of lesser feel-goodness,

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Have you even played since Abyssea? Tip: Say hi to Voidwatch. All the "fun" of HNM-Loot system, except everything you want is R/EX, you can't pool your items, and the drop you want is 0.5% and only goes to people who can't use it.

Again, You're wanting the excitement of getting a new item, like you felt back in the HNM Days. That will never happen. You will never recapture that excitement again. Personally i shat bricks when i got my THF AF Gloves, that shit was an achievement back when i got them. I was one of the first on server to own Ranparee Harness, It was awesome.

But I'll never recapture that excitement, Neither will you. I admire your dedication to thinking this will make everyone happier, but it won't. HNMs were a terrible system designed for an out-dated time. There was nothing positive about them. As you nicely pointed out for me, The best thing to come from them was reading the Drama on a Forum. Which while fun, gets old quick.

I know competition drives a lot of people, But they have first Person shooters for that. That, and FFXI may not be for you. Its not a Competitive game. They're moving away from that. If you don't like it, I say this truly, I'm sorry for you. But this game is going away from the HNM Camping times, and into an era the majority of the player-base can enjoy.

I applaud your enthusiasm, but like an update for RDM, its a pipe dream. I mean, i guess asking for it gives you something to do, so keep doing it, But It will likely never happen. But keep fighting the good fight. The second they bring back HNMs you may come to realize you're the only one camping it because 95% of the player base will have quit.

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Eh, I have a lot more fun without being yelled at by my own LS leadership and having to /blist everyone around who's not a member. While some people do probably love drama, I think you're just projecting your own ideas onto them.

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Then you had a pretty bad linkshell.

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I'll gladly sacrifice the occasional high to avoid the almost constant lows I felt before. There's nothing wrong with emotional BALANCE!! As far as terrorists and citizen's rights... I don't think this is the place for that discussion.

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If you had constant lows, why even play the game? If the lows were constant you wouldn't have played unless you're a masochist or an old addict. This is just my opinion, but not getting some kind of emotional high or attachment to your group or achievements in an MMO means you or the game was a failure. The sign of the game's success is that exact emotional high you're sacrificing.

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I've still seen people called out in Jeuno for scamming or other bad behaviors. My friends and I team up to do things just fine. I don't see a problem with encouraging low-manning, and I don't see how stealing is more promoted now than during the HNM days.

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You see those people called out in Jeuno for scamming, but then you join your VW shout and now you're groupped with said scammer because he has an Ukon. Odds are you aren't leaving because he's there. Before if someone ninja-lotted a drop, they'd be booted from their ls, have player warnings, and generally would have no option but the seediest shells on some other server, because nobody wanted to potentially have their E.Body/W.Legs/D.Chap/AA/etc ninja'd from them. They weren't nearly as tolerated or easily forgiven as they are today. No punishment, and a turn towards not needing a social structure/hierarchy to get things done, encourages stealing. There's a benefit to stealing with virtually 0 negatives, so if you're an unconscionable prick, it's to your advantage.

HNM was just a small section of 75 endgame, for a while post-75 Abyssea WAS endgame, hell it was most of non-endgame too. There's a bit of a difference in the scale in which they encouraged stealing/being a dick.

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Please. FFXI has never worked that way even during the height of Abyssea. You're grossly exaggerating and you know it. You think it's too easy, and that's fine but no one is being given a damn thing.

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Bullshit! They added an instant win button in Abyssea, and then made said instant win button piss easy to obtain. You could build an empyrean by being AFK 98% of the time. Seriously:

1) Go to a cleave.
2) Sit there while you aquire cruor/exp.
3) Take extra KIs.
4) Use cruor to buy Brew.
5) Kill NMs.
6) Repeat.

Hell you can join a FC, leech, and NPC cruor to buy anything you want in relatively short order, considering you were AFK the whole time.

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Eventually things you enjoy you may come to no longer enjoy some day down the line. And doing something a second or third time will never be as exciting as doing it the first time.
Read my very first post in this thread, It fits for you as well. Bringing back HNMs and Drama won't bring back what you're looking for. You may think it will, But when you have it, You will come to find it was just a pipe-dream of recapturing what you felt early on in this games life.

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There's quite a difference. The part I miss is the teamwork and strategy that went into events. My desire for those things never faded, they were removed from the game.

Oh boy, proc systems! Just a way to force a group to drag along extra people, on jobs no one cares about, and add mindless ways to cripple mobs.

Oh boy, massive Temps! Lets remove all difficulty from abyssea and add an instant win button, or on the other end of the spectrum, cover up flaws in monster difficulty by spamming fanatics and clerics to survive fights with constant, unbalanced aoe hate reset, charm, death moves.

Oh boy Cruor Buffs/Atma(cites)! Lets marginalize the importance of most gear, the obtaining of and knowledge of how and when to equip being one of the only gameplay factors players control, by adding superpowers!

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Plus after reading your post closely, I'm 100% Positive you care nothing about HNMs or Legion, you just want exclusive/rare armor to afk in. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm seriously getting that vibe from you.

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You're wrong. AFKing in badass gear is nice and all, but the best parts of the game are doing my job as best as I can, gear enabling that, and that feeling you get when you lead a group with a plan and you see the plan come together in the fight.

I hated HNMs and still do. Imho, Limbus/Einherjar/Assault/Nyzul is how all FFXI endgame should be modeled. They all offered great rewards, had a tiered progression, rewarded you based on performance, and everyone benefited. They could be low-manned, but required a plan and teamwork. SE seriously needs to look at those events and learn when coming out with new content.

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Have you even played since Abyssea? Tip: Say hi to Voidwatch. All the "fun" of HNM-Loot system, except everything you want is R/EX, you can't pool your items, and the drop you want is 0.5% and only goes to people who can't use it.

I know competition drives a lot of people, But they have first Person shooters for that. That, and FFXI may not be for you. Its not a Competitive game. They're moving away from that. If you don't like it, I say this truly, I'm sorry for you. But this game is going away from the HNM Camping times, and into an era the majority of the player-base can enjoy.

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You must not have read any of my posts that I've ever made. I care nothing for HNM, and I specifically called out VW's loot system as garbage as it removes ls government. All of the content I've mentioned as "good" involves the avoidance of direct competition, promotes players choosing when to start an event, and a benefit for everyone based on performance.

HNMs can die in a fire fueled by unwanted children in an orphanage. I want the 8-18+ Endgame LSes back though, and I want more content based off the same principles of Limbus/Einherjar/Assault/Nyzul to support said shells.

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Originally Posted by Return1

Then you had a pretty bad linkshell.

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From talking to the people I used to have to /blist but don't anymore (very nice people by the way), they put up with a lot of the same crap. Bad? In some ways maybe. Uncommon? Not really. Slim chances at claiming, low droprates, and people trying to validate themselves by their success in a video game tended to add stress and vitriol to situations where it never should have existed. Type A personalities, performance anxiety, and internet anonymity doesn't tend to make for the friendliest environments.

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If you had constant lows, why even play the game? If the lows were constant you wouldn't have played unless you're a masochist or an old addict. This is just my opinion, but not getting some kind of emotional high or attachment to your group or achievements in an MMO means you or the game was a failure. The sign of the game's success is that exact emotional high you're sacrificing.

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I had attachment to plenty of people. I still do. Outside of HNM there was fun to be had. HNM itself was more a means to an end. Back then you either did HNM or you stopped progressing. I wanted to play with my friends and progress so I did it. Was it always a nightmare? No. Was it as fun and joyous as a game should be? No. Am I a failure? I'm not someone with that high an opinion of myself, but I know I'm not a failure. I'm far from perfect, and I'll never measure among the elite. Is the game a failure? Partially yes. It's Final Fantasy, it should be as big as any MMO ever.

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You see those people called out in Jeuno for scamming, but then you join your VW shout and now you're groupped with said scammer because he has an Ukon. Odds are you aren't leaving because he's there. Before if someone ninja-lotted a drop, they'd be booted from their ls, have player warnings, and generally would have no option but the seediest shells on some other server, because nobody wanted to potentially have their E.Body/W.Legs/D.Chap/AA/etc ninja'd from them. They weren't nearly as tolerated or easily forgiven as they are today. No punishment, and a turn towards not needing a social structure/hierarchy to get things done, encourages stealing. There's a benefit to stealing with virtually 0 negatives, so if you're an unconscionable prick, it's to your advantage.

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How do you steal drops in VW? I didn't think there was anyone who knew less about it than I do.

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HNM was just a small section of 75 endgame, for a while post-75 Abyssea WAS endgame, hell it was most of non-endgame too. There's a bit of a difference in the scale in which they encouraged stealing/being a dick.

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That's the problem with SE. Whatever is new is the only game in town. They can't or won't support progression for different "levels" of players all at the same time.

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Bullshit! They added an instant win button in Abyssea, and then made said instant win button piss easy to obtain. You could build an empyrean by being AFK 98% of the time.

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Trust me, procing and brewing doesn't guarantee you'll get what you want when you want it which is what you're suggesting Abyssea is. Oh the mob will die for sure if you brew it, but the R.N.G. can still screw you over. Maybe you always get what you're after every time. You're definitely the exception.

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How do you steal drops in VW? I didn't think there was anyone who knew less about it than I do.

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I never said they'd steal VW drops. VW does play a role in killing social hierarchy and punishment for those that do steal though.

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That's the problem with SE. Whatever is new is the only game in town. They can't or won't support progression for different "levels" of players all at the same time.

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What? At 75 cap we had a ton of different "games in town", and they all supported different "levels" of players. Quests, Missions, BCNM, KSNM, ENM, ISNM, Assaults, Nyzul, Sky, Sea, HNM, Dynamis, Limbus, Garrison, Einherjar, Salvage, Campaign, Campaign Ops, SCNMs, etc. Every one of those events had something to offer as well.

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Trust me, procing and brewing doesn't guarantee you'll get what you want when you want it which is what you're suggesting Abyssea is. Oh the mob will die for sure if you brew it, but the R.N.G. can still screw you over. Maybe you always get what you're after every time. You're definitely the exception.

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The point was it was an instant win button, removing any work you needed to do. For Emp items, they were guaranteed to at least drop at least one. On top of that, you could just leech cruor/gil and just buy any Empyrean Armor/Weapon drop you wanted.

I'm 300% agree with everything Return1 said

Well its good you guys got hardcore Nostalgia goggles, I wish i could look back and pretend FFXI used to take skill or planning. All i remember is a trip to wiki, and after 1 run, You had it down to the letter.

FFXI Past and present are only different in one way. Present, the HNMs can be spawned, Past, they could not. Same Difficulty, Same everything. Its easy. Voidwatch is basically HNMs without the respawn timers. the Loot system sucks, But thats what we now have Legion for as well. HNMs with their old loot system intact.

Edit: It also seems that the final Voidwatch battlefield can only be entered once every 24 hours. You can just arrive 3 hours early and stare at the crystal, afk with bots on, and pretend your HNM Camping before you re-enter. Simulate the entire experience.

Yah, I'm bringing the sarcasm on real strong today, not sure why. You guys seem nice enough :D

much as I would like all the old HNMLS types to pack up and take it elsewhere (they sort-of have with Voidwatch already) I don't really care for the reintroduction of this kind of content. If they DO decide we need HNMs make them force-pop, and make getting the pops difficult. One of the worst elements of the old HNM crap was having to be ready for battle at 4:00 am because that's when pop window opened. I'm an insomniac, so once I've gotten to sleep I want to stay that way, plus I have to get up to get ready for work at 6:00 am. Force-pop I can plan for. And let's face it, the HNM should not go to "he who has the better alarm clock"