Holy bananas it looks like you finally get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Blood Weapon is not a 2hr Camate, please help!
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11-07-2011, 05:20 AMSNK
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11-07-2011, 05:48 AMCljader1
With all the 2-hour abilities among the jobs, drk has a pretty bad one, a 2hr is surpose to save your ass and bloodweapon is not enough...I really like blood weapon but I just think it should be a regular Job Ability on a 15 min timer. Now I admit bloodweapon, souleater kraken club combo is very strong but there can be ways around this to increase drk's 2hr ability and reduce the effectiveness of the BW, SE kraken club madness.
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11-07-2011, 07:38 AMAlhanelemIt's fine for different jobs to be better at different fights. I don't dispute that. However, they CAN TOO make everything well balanced (not perfectly, that's expecting too much) such that each job has value at something within the game- not all at the same time, but for different things. I do not nor would I suggest that they attempt to make it so any combination of the 20 jobs can clear everything with the same difficulty and/or speed- only that each job has meaningful fights in the game that they are capable of shining in. Especially in major content events that consist of a large number of battles / NMs / etc, across all of them, each job should be acceptable by the playerbase for one or more of the individual fights. The seal/crest/empty BCNM system is about the only content area of the game that really achieves this right now, though a large amount of its content is no longer relevant to the playerbase at large.Quote:
Every job is generally better at another for any given situation. In a game where we have 20 different choices, you can not make everything perfectly balanced to where they're all equally useful.
As an example-
A handful of BCNMs have charmable monsters in them, making BST an excellent choice for them
A handful of BCNMs are easily cleared by a single summoner even though more players are allowed.
A handful of BCNMs and BCNM-like fights are built to adapt to whatever job the player happens to be using.
A handful of BCNMs cater to jobs whose method of attack is spike damage/nuking.
A handful of BCNMs cater to jobs whose method of attack is damage over time.
I would argue that abyssea comes next closest to achieving a variety of content that different jobs excel in, but the difficulty of abyssea is for the most part pretty low, and the current bandwagon jobs can dominate a lot of fights that might have been meant to be cleared ideally with other jobs.
Voidwatch achieves a semblance of job balance, but it's extremely forced- different jobs are brought not for their battle capabilities, but purely to improve the odds of procing for more treasure.
TL;DR: Major content arcs are capable of having a variety of content which in turn can allow a variety of jobs to shine. There should not be any "useless" jobs, nor should there be any jobs that can completely dominate the entirety of the content.
I've been preaching that for a while now, but at least this means other people get it as well. There is absolutely a balance problem in the game if players are expected to only use one of a few jobs to clear almost everything in the game in a reasonable timeframe.Quote:
Holy bananas it looks like you finally get it.
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11-07-2011, 08:24 AMGreatguardian
ITT: Some guy still honestly believes that there is a single job that dominates the entirety of content, and a corresponding useless job that has no use at all in the entirety of content.
You're strawmanning, son. Instead of actually responding to what those of us here are saying, you're applying ideas, views, and actions to this arbitrary "Elite Community" and then arguing with those ideas. -
11-07-2011, 09:01 AMMizuharu
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/2...9310987619.gif
About sums up how I feel after reading 5 pages of this.
Lesson learned; I'll never go to a DRK thread again. -
11-07-2011, 09:38 AMAlhanelemCan you get any more hypocritical?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
You're the one that's telling people who play PUP and SMN they need to play the popular jobs, and then you would have us believe that there isn't a minority of the jobs (It's not actually one, but a few) dominating the majority of content?
I am not straw-manning. Do you really even know what that is? I have responded to what you are saying with reasonable argument. In your responses, you twist what I said into a ridiculous extreme. I never said there was just one "useless job that has no use in any content whatsoever" nor that there was really only one job that dominated absolutely all content. YOU, yes YOU were the one who gave the bizarre absolute. YOU said "ninja" and suggested that doing things fast vs. doing things slow is a matter of picking one job vs picking any of the others. My recations are based on what YOU have said, and now you are backpedaling from that. -
11-07-2011, 09:49 AMSpankWustler
Urteil Posts about Dark Knight VI: The Unhappying - A less-than-harrowing tale of a young man lamenting the state of his Dark Knight that will make young and old alike want to just post a Friendship is Magic meme or something and quickly forget such a topic ever exists. Two stars, because the poorly scripted and rehashed plot is acted out very passionately by the lead.
You're missing the forest for the trees. If you look at Abyssea and Voidwatch together, you'll notice an almost completely different selection of jobs excels in the former compared to the latter and vice versa. While jobs are not infallibly balanced at the moment, I'd say it's better than it has ever been in the past due to the two extremes of Abyssea and Voidwatch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
In closing, here is a picture of a puppy dressed as a bumblebee to add some semblance of mirth to this thread.
http://hollywoodhatesme.files.wordpr...pg?w=300&h=199 -
11-07-2011, 09:56 AMKimbleNo, I believe he is telling people they should play the right job in the right situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
There is no way to make an event that will make use of all 20 jobs sadly. Thats why they give us the power to change jobs without penalty. -
11-07-2011, 10:02 AMUrteil
No idea what most of you guys are talking about. This thread is specifically and only about how Blood Weapon sucks in duration and is very lackluster, lots of 2hrs have this problem but I was specifically talking about BW.
If you feel another one sucks go make another thread.
DRK is useful in lots of places, you're all the emo ones, but Blood Weapon sucks make it last 2 minutes or at least the entire duration of souleater. -
11-07-2011, 10:05 AMAlhanelemIt's perfectly fair to say different jobs excel in voidwatch than Abyssea- that doesn't change the fact that job variation is forced by the proc system more than it is encouraged by the nature of the battle itself.Quote:
You're missing the forest for the trees. If you look at Abyssea and Voidwatch together, you'll notice an almost completely different selection of jobs excels in the former compared to the latter and vice versa.
I in fact agree that job balance is better than it has been in the past, though it's not a whole lot to do with those two events themselves.
We're largely talking about a tangent that the thread went off on.Quote:
No idea what most of you guys are talking about.
I'm pretty sure most people agree that BW is a sub-par 2-hour. However, all jobs are getting a new 2-hour soon. For now, I would just hold out hope that the new one is better. -
11-07-2011, 11:24 AMNynjaMarduk's Crackows 75 [Feet] All RacesQuote:
Originally Posted by Camiie
DEF:20 MP+3% MND+10 Enfeebling magic skill +5 String instrument skill +5 Summoning magic skill +5 Enmity-4 Set: Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
LV 75 WHM BRD SMN
Nashira came out WAY before and had the summoning skill +5, and if you were ghetto and didnt have sea, I guess that extra +2 summoning skill over the 40k Aurore boots is really game breaking.
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Marduk's Dastanas 75 [Hands] All Races
DEF:20 MP+2% MND+6 CHR+6 Adds "Regen" effect Enmity-4 Set: Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
LV 75 WHM BRD SMN
Nothing here is remotely useful, other than a regen idle piece.
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Marduk's Jubbah 75 [Body] All Races
DEF:40 HP+3% MP+3% MND+12 CHR+12 Enhances "Fast Cast" effect Adds "Refresh" effect Set: Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
LV 75 WHM BRD SMN
SMN allready had access to plenty of refresh bodies...hurray fast cast?
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Marduk's Shalwar 75 [Legs] All Races
DEF:32 MP+3% CHR+10 Healing magic skill +5 Wind instrument skill +5 Summoning magic skill +5 Enmity-4 Set: Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
LV 75 WHM BRD SMN
My mind is hazy on what came out first between ZNM and salvage...though my friends think it was salvage...anyways this offers another +2 smn skill over a pair of cheap austere slops. Once again, not game breaking, and were then obsoleted for smn to the Oracle Braconi with a similar skill+5.
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Marduk's Tiara 75 [Head] All Races
DEF:17 MP+4% MND+3 CHR+3 Divine magic skill +7 Singing skill +7 Summoning magic skill +7 Enmity-3 Set: Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
LV 75 WHM BRD SMN
Skill+7...yet another mere +2 skill over AF1 head.
so this wonderful gear, that you're dubbing "most useful" offered a mere skill+6 over what was available at the time, which amounts to a 1-3 extra seconds of ward duration and an extra 6 MP when siphoning. -
11-07-2011, 11:57 AMCamiieQuote:
Originally Posted by Nynja
Seems odd to be so stuck on the point that there was something useful to SMN in Salvage. Maybe you don't think any of it was worth having for your SMN. Maybe I thought a few points here and there along with the MP was useful to mine. Maybe most stuff back then was side grades or minor upgrades.
I still don't see the point of harping on it. Shall I rephrase it for you? Ok, here, see if this meets your approval because lord knows I sure want to make sure I get it.
SMN was considered useless in Salvage, an event that contained gear a SMN may want to obtain for some sidegrades or a few minor upgrades.
Happy now? Geez... I sure hope so... -
11-07-2011, 12:24 PMAlhanelemNot useLESS, but not especially useful either. And salvage offers a lot of work for such a marginal gain over existing summon magic skill pieces.Quote:
Seems odd to be so stuck on the point that there was something useful to SMN in Salvage.
Wait, what was this thread about again?
Oh. -
11-07-2011, 01:40 PMLeonlionheart
Aren't two hours kind of niceties and not something you should hinge your strategy on?
The only situations where you focus your strategy on using your two hour is ye olde time zergs. In which case BW is among the best.
I don't care about two hours enough to really want the dev team to work on them over new abilities that would actually fix jobs. -
11-07-2011, 01:45 PMAlhanelemnews for you: They're already working on 20 new abilities, all of them 2-hours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
The thing with BW is if you're using a 2H weapon, you attack too slow to get much out of it. The duration is just too short. Just changing the duration would already make it significantly better. -
11-07-2011, 03:27 PMNynjaall mages in salvage need magic to be useful...smn to be useful needed abil (which means another melee is being useless untill it drops) or SJ (backup cure) to justify their existance...Quote:
Originally Posted by Camiie
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11-07-2011, 03:28 PMNynjaHasso, Desperate Blows + Last Resort, March/march, haste...seems like you attack just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
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11-07-2011, 03:44 PMNynjaare you serious bro?Quote:
Originally Posted by Urteil
1-This thread
2- http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...oing-to-happen
3- http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...AWFUL-PETITION
4- http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...Feedback-Forum
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...Feedback-Forum
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...k-Knight-Magic
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...DRK-update-DEV
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...to-Weapon-Bash
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...c-Eye-not-suck
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...-Dark-Celerity
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ight-and-Magic
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...d-the-Dev-Team
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ob-Dark-Knight
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/442-Help.
What do all these threads have in common?
They were started by you, bitching about how drk sucks, how SE ignores drks because they love their bleeding hearts, and what YOU think would be proper fixes.
I tried to find a thread that you started that DOESNT pertain to how drk sucks and needs to be fixed...I couldnt find one. -
11-07-2011, 04:42 PMCljader1What are you talking about?? so to get those buff's mainly you'll announce to your party that you'll about too bloodweapon please march and haste me...thats idiotic, the reason why your even blood weaponing is because either you are about to die or the party going to shit, the bard or whm dont have time to march and haste you for a 30 sec blood weapon, your not even a priority...nor should you be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nynja
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11-07-2011, 04:46 PMNynjaIf you're in a party and your mage cant cast fking haste on you, your party was doomed well before you needed to 2hr...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cljader1
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11-07-2011, 04:49 PMCljader1I fail to see what you offer to this thread, actually you offer nothing but constant derails if you dont like this thread or other threads like it then gtfo, we can do without your derails, half the time most of us dont even know what you are talking about and why you are even posting in this threadQuote:
Originally Posted by Nynja
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11-07-2011, 04:59 PMNynjaPerhaps you should wipe the tears from your eyes and learn to read...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cljader1
I dont know what part of "Urteil should level a second job so they can stop posting about how drk sucks" followed up by him going "emo?no u, stfu"" and then me listing every damn thread he's started in the drk forums exemplifying that all he does is create threads about how he thinks drk sucks is so hard to comprehend. -
11-07-2011, 05:07 PMCljader1You offer nothing to the thread please talk about the topic of this thread or just leave...I'm not interested in your derailsQuote:
Originally Posted by Nynja
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11-07-2011, 05:09 PMZarabeth
I find it amusing that the OP mentions chainspell when SE has made RDM fairly useless now. They've given away all the stuff that made rdm unique while not giving us anything to compensate for the losses. As to BW I'm a DRK also (as well as RDM, WHM, THF, SMN, NIN) and I completely agree it needs an overhaul.
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11-07-2011, 05:16 PMDarkwizardzin.........Quote:
Originally Posted by Nynja
Urteil has every right to post what he feels about the job he loves to play... just like you have every right to say that it's your opinion that Urteil should level another job instead of whining about the one he always plays.
I'm siding with Cljader here if you don't like Urteil's posts then ignore them. Unless you somehow think that by posting your opinion your going to change how he feels... there is no point in even posting to begin with.
The reason Urteil posts this so much is because he feels that if he speaks out loud enough SE might listen. That being said... why do you feel the need to post your opinion about this? (I'm not trolling I'm really asking this question) because I don't see the point (Urteil isn't going to change because of it). -
11-07-2011, 05:28 PMCljader1
Another thing Blood Weapon is 100% useless against undead mobs, thats ridiculous! On a whole super family of mobs drk cannot use its 2hr or system of drain spells and dreadspikes, I'm just amazed at the limitations placed on drk overall.
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11-07-2011, 05:45 PMAlhanelemIt might be a 'derail' but he has a valid point. All you post is "make this or that about DRK not suck."Quote:
Originally Posted by Cljader1
The job is not as horribly flawed as you're making it out to be. There are a variety of things they can do to improve it, but come on, even I am positive once in a while. Try out another job just for kicks, it will help give you some perspective on the situation. -
11-07-2011, 05:48 PMCljader1Yep your right and I'm on topicQuote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
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11-07-2011, 06:06 PMDaniel_HatcherErm... As someone else said. It's the WHM's job to get Haste on at all times when engaged, and what's the point of having a BRD if to not do March?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cljader1
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11-07-2011, 07:44 PMArcon"On topic" doesn't mean it's good or productive. Attacking an author's credibility actually does serve a purpose, namely pointing out the lack of their objective judgment, which is applicable every time an issue is one of opinion, instead one of logic, which is the case here. There are no dislike buttons, and it's pointless arguing against an opinion, so the best thing to do if you disagree is to actually point out the bias of the author, so that the people reading it don't get mislead by their propaganda (especially SE). So in that case, yes, what Nynja said is on topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cljader1
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11-07-2011, 08:05 PMLeonlionheartI know, and I'm quite displeased.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Here's a tidbit:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
513 delay (Apoc) minimum time per attack round: 1.71 seconds
Monk95 delay (vere) minimum time per attack round (Not 100 fists, true delay reduction cap): 1.77 seconds
Just thought you should know
Also, 100 fists sucks. That's actually something over 2s? per attack round
So I guess you guys are right, if you're only taking it in context of solo. But then in that case WAR's 2hour sucks, WHM's 2hour sucks, RNG's 2hour sucks (well it sucks in parties too) NIN's 2hour sucks, BRD's 2hour sucks, etc. -
11-07-2011, 09:03 PMCljader1The bias, the bias of what...this is a drk 2hr thread, if you dont like what the topic is about then leave...we wont miss you, whenever it is logic or opinion (either one deosnt matter) drk 2hr is still sorely lacking in performance...hopefully camate can shed a little light on what think developers are thinking about this issueQuote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
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11-07-2011, 09:23 PMCamiie
I guess this is what SE is doing, but they and we need to ask ourselves "What is a 2-hour ability supposed to be?" Since it's under such a lengthy recast timer shouldn't it be a "broken" ability that has a very good chance of turning a fight around? Not God Mode like a brew, but something that in almost all situations would be very advantageous to yourself and/or your party? The cost being the 2-hour wait to use it again. That's what I expect a 2-hour to be. I'm not sure what the rest of you think. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
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11-07-2011, 09:41 PMArconThat's not how the world works. Why should we leave? If someone was painting poo-graffiti on your house, you wouldn't just "go away" and let them do their thing. You would speak up and possibly punch them. Punching, sadly, doesn't work over the internet, so we have to do the next best thing, which is outing you as the biased and ignorant posters you are. SE listening to you would make them waste time on your non-existant problems instead of using it on something that's important to the vast majority. This is our issue as much as it is yours, in fact, you made it ours. Stop telling us to go away, we have a right to be here and protest ideas that will upset us just as much as you have a right to post stupid ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cljader1
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11-07-2011, 09:50 PMSNKI don't see it so much as a derail as he's got a point. :|Quote:
Originally Posted by Cljader1
P.S. I'm actually in 100% agreement with Alhanelem on this.
Hell hath doth frozen over. -
11-07-2011, 10:50 PMhiko
11-05-2011 01:22 PM=>
11-04-2011 08:35 PMQuote:
Originally Posted by Urteil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
2hr update was anounced before your post, you just ask them to fix something they already said they plan to fix
+before including some 2hr as overkilling ones, learn how they work(HF slower a full buffed mnk) -
11-07-2011, 10:58 PMVoldNo. We the players might treat 2 hour abilities as "save our ass" JAs but they're really not. They're 2 hour job abilities. Nothing more or less. And I'll say it again: BW is meant to be used in conjunction with Souleater to do severe damage. It is one of the very best 2 hour JA in the game. It's just not very useful in the hands of the average Joe who chooses not to pick up multi hit weapons for their DRK. Maybe that is enough to say the 2 hr sucks, but I'm a THF and NIN at heart above all else. I don't want to hear it when my 2 hour JAs have been "useless" for 10 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cljader1
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11-08-2011, 12:33 AMNynjaThen SE will give another Scarlet Delerium, and he can whine and bitch some more...just like the RDM's got Temper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwizardzin
Because drain stuff never works on undead...its not a cockblocking limitation. Most 2hr's have their own fk you:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cljader1
Manafont/Chainspell are useless if you're Muted/Silenced without echo drops
Perfect Dodge isnt so perfect to rangers (in fact its basically invincible without the enmity boost, but you can still get shield skillups)
Meiyko Shisui offers nothing if your TP gets wiped after you use it
EES is EES
100 fists can actually get you killed just as fast if the mob you're fighting counters
Spirit Surge isnt so hot since most melee will cap their haste out and the def down on Jump doesnt stack with angon
Wild Card is "plz let me get my 2hr back"
Mijin is just a "dont want to wait 5 min to unweak"
So please...please....
See my quote above...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cljader1
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11-08-2011, 12:42 AMDfoleyStopped reading right there, as I knew there wasn't going to be an intelligent post. You realize, that monk with 2x march (maybe even just 1x march with the new mini 2 hr ability) + haste spell has perma 2 hour right? So by definition it is more useless then your DRk 2hr as it literally does nothing from level 75+ while you at least have a gimp effect?Quote:
Originally Posted by Urteil
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11-08-2011, 12:47 AMGreatguardian
Oh, we're actually responding to Urteil's DRK ramblings now?
Lol.
Making a thread complaining about a universally crappy set of job abilities that the Devs have already acknowledged were shit and announced that they will be augmenting/fixing/replacing.
Then asserting that Dark Knight is the only job with a shitty 2hr.
The grass is always greener, broski.