[dev1035] Are PUPs the only loved ones?

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Originally Posted by Soranika

H2H procs? Only thing I can imagine. It's not often that a pup frame proc appears in VW.

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Ya, PUP/MNK to cover the majority of H2H WS triggers while still having all the PUP JA and Automaton WS's covered.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Ya, PUP/MNK to cover the majority of H2H WS triggers while still having all the PUP JA and Automaton WS's covered.

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They're missing Asuran Fists. They're also unable to actually trigger the vast majority of Automaton procs, as I mentioned earlier in this thread. Sure, there might be 12 different Auto-WS procs, but good luck getting your puppet to actually use all of them.

PUP as a "Proc" job is a complete waste of space in Voidwatch, which is why I'm wondering what in the world your reasoning is for using them over a Monk, which has every H2H WS, the vast majority of Staff/Club WS, and is a stronger DD.

Edit: Also,

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Not sure what you mean. The post to which I was responding talked about having a PUP over a SCH. I merely said in my ideal alliance I'd have both.

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Yes. And I said, "Why would you bring a PUP at all if you have a Monk?" You replied with, "Well, I wouldn't bring a Monk."

So I'd like to hear why you would bring a PUP instead of a MNK. Alliance spots are not infinite. If you're wasting a spot on PUP, then there's some other job with significantly more procs or more utility that isn't being used.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

They're missing Asuran Fists. They're also unable to actually trigger the vast majority of Automaton procs, as I mentioned earlier in this thread. Sure, there might be 12 different Auto-WS procs, but good luck getting your puppet to actually use all of them.

PUP as a "Proc" job is a complete waste of space in Voidwatch, which is why I'm wondering what in the world your reasoning is for using them over a Monk, which has every H2H WS, the vast majority of Staff/Club WS, and is a stronger DD.

Edit: Also,

Yes. And I said, "Why would you bring a PUP at all if you have a Monk?" You replied with, "Well, I wouldn't bring a Monk."

So I'd like to hear why you would bring a PUP instead of a MNK. Alliance spots are not infinite. If you're wasting a spot on PUP, then there's some other job with significantly more procs or more utility that isn't being used.

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I know they're missing Asuran Fists, I said "majority" in my original post....

I know the PUP has issues with certain WS. DRG has the same issues with its wyvern. I never said the procs would be easy to carry out. However, what I CAN say with certainty is that your odds of proccing a Wyvern or Automaton proc WITHOUT some DRG or PUP in alliance is 0%.

Yes, I know alliance spots are not infinite. I was suggesting an ideal setup to cover as many procs as possible. Obviously, even this setup is missing some procs, and would obviously have to be adjusted based on the mob being fought:

PLD, NIN, BRD, WHM, RDM, SMN
WAR, PUP/MNK, DRG, COR, DRK, WHM
BLM, DNC, BLU, RNG, THF, SCH

DRG has EX lance WS and a heap of unique JAs, and is one of the game's strongest DDs. PUP can be completely eclipsed by MNK and functions as an average DD. There is no comparison between the two.

I'd also take issue with your ideal alliance, personally =/. That's a pretty optimistic setup.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

DRG has EX lance WS and a heap of unique JAs, and is one of the game's strongest DDs. PUP can be completely eclipsed by MNK and functions as an average DD. There is no comparison between the two.

I'd also take issue with your ideal alliance, personally =/. That's a pretty optimistic setup.

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You are introducing a factor into the analysis which I was intentionally not using: DD strength. Obviously, the setup I proposed above would not be used in some of the new fights (Kaggen, Pil, Aello, Ildebrann etc). Instead, one would sacrifice some of the more obscure procs (PUP, BST, etc) for more of the same job, heavier DD, or more ranged DD.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

You are introducing a factor into the analysis which I was intentionally not using: DD strength. Obviously, the setup I proposed above would not be used in some of the new fights (Kaggen, Pil, Ildebrann etc). Instead, one would sacrifice some of the more obscure procs (PUP, BST, etc) for more of the same job or heavier DD.

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Even taking DD power out of the equation, MNK has more procs than PUP unless you want your mages to be in melee range =/.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Even taking DD power out of the equation, MNK has more procs than PUP unless you want your mages to be in melee range =/.

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I haven't counted the total number of procs each would have. If you have, great, I'm actually curious as to the final numbers. Of course, as you know, any such tabulation would have to take into account the PUP having access to certain Dagger and Club procs, as well as the total number of PUP JA and Automaton WS.

You don't need to be able to proc every weakness that shows up. Let the percentage of weaknesses your alliance can hit be N%. Of the first 8 weaknesses, your alliance will be able to hit 8*N% Weaknesses. Because you hit 8*N% weaknesses, there will be 8*N% new weaknesses to hit and your odds of proccing them are N% again giving you a total of 8*N%^2 weaknesses from the second round. If you repeat this process out to infinity, you end up with 8*sum(N + N^2 + N^3 + N^4...) weaknesses when starting the fight with an N% proc rate.

This formula inverts across N=.5
10% proc rate = 1/9
20% proc rate = 2/8
30% proc rate = 3/7
40% proc rate = 2/3
50% proc rate = 1
60% proc rate = 3/2
70% proc rate = 7/3
80% proc rate = 8/2
90% proc rate = 9/1

Moral of the story is that a group that can proc 2/3 of the weaknesses (16 procs per fight average) is generally going to cap lights easily. You don't need to take jobs that cover a very small amount of procs like DNC and PUP. DNC has all of two JAs that can't be subbed. PUP is a monk with low attack/martial arts and a frustrating sidekick.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

They're missing Asuran Fists. They're also unable to actually trigger the vast majority of Automaton procs, as I mentioned earlier in this thread. Sure, there might be 12 different Auto-WS procs, but good luck getting your puppet to actually use all of them.

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Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. What?

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Sure, there might be 12 different Auto-WS procs, but good luck getting your puppet to actually use all of them.

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Uh.
Harlequin/Stormwaker
- Slapstick/Thunder Maneuver
- Knockout/Wind Maneuver
- Magic Morter/Light Maneuver

Sharpshot Frame
- Arcuballista/Fire Maneuver
- Daze/Thunder Maneuver
- Armor Piercer/Dark Maneuver
- Armor Shatterer/Wind Maneuver

Valoredge Frame
- Chimera Ripper/Fire Maneuver
- String Clipper+String Shredder/Thunder Maneuver
- Cannibal Blade/Dark Maneuver
- Bone Crusher/Light Maneuver

So yeah, the only real weapon skill you can't force an automaton to do is String Clipper since String Shredder and it share the same "deciding maneuver." Therefore, it is chosen over String Clipper should the automaton have the proper skill level. You can easily force an automaton to do a certain weapon skill. >.> And for TP gain you could get TP yourself then Tactical Switch or just set Heat Capacitor. (If the WS you want to force is fire based, Heat Capacitor has a 1:30 min recast timer. So you'll have plenty of a window before a fire maneuver would be erased.)

Shockingly enough, Puppetmaster is a job you have to have had experience playing/done enough research about it to actually understand how it works. You're gearing two "characters." Not one. You think all of that AI in the Automaton and there wouldn't be a way to force a certain weapon skill? lol... Actually, scratch that "lol." They still can't seem to put curing over -na spells. Hopefully that changes with this update.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

You don't need to be able to proc every weakness that shows up. Let the percentage of weaknesses your alliance can hit be N%. Of the first 8 weaknesses, your alliance will be able to hit 8*N% Weaknesses. Because you hit 8*N% weaknesses, there will be 8*N% new weaknesses to hit and your odds of proccing them are N% again giving you a total of 8*N%^2 weaknesses from the second round. If you repeat this process out to infinity, you end up with 8*sum(N + N^2 + N^3 + N^4...) weaknesses when starting the fight with an N% proc rate.

This formula inverts across N=.5
10% proc rate = 1/9
20% proc rate = 2/8
30% proc rate = 3/7
40% proc rate = 2/3
50% proc rate = 1
60% proc rate = 3/2
70% proc rate = 7/3
80% proc rate = 8/2
90% proc rate = 9/1

Moral of the story is that a group that can proc 2/3 of the weaknesses (16 procs per fight average) is generally going to cap lights easily. You don't need to take jobs that cover a very small amount of procs like DNC and PUP. DNC has all of two JAs that can't be subbed. PUP is a monk with low attack/martial arts and a frustrating sidekick.

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I do agree that a group doesn't have to proc every weakness thrown at it to do well at capping lights. The "ideal" setup is just that...an ideal. And it certainly wouldn't survive against a mob that takes a particular kind of setup (i.e., most of the new T3 mobs).

I don't know enough about PUP to know how frustrating its sidekick can be, but people like Mizu above can speak to that better than I can. I just know that well-geared, knowledgeable PUP's can do very well in a VW alliance and cover a great many procs. I'd still be interested in seeing the total number of procs a MNK has vs. a PUP (before factoring in subs), but I can't be arsed to put together the list at the moment.

Set up that I use that does very well.

PLD, RDM, WHM, WHM, BRD, SMN
BLM, BLM, BLM, BLU, RNG, DD (DRG, PUP, WAR, etc)
COR, WAR, SAM, DRK, MNK, NIN

on Zilart will add a 2nd PLD and drop a DD and have a WHM move to DD party if needed.

SCH is generally useless imo. Sure they have Helix but that is only one spell per the element. Next update, they wont even have that. Sure they can help proc 2-4 on regular nukes but so can the RDM while having all their own procs as well (dia 3, bio 3, blind 2, para 2, slow 2) as well as refreshing, etc.

Ive found it a lot easier to focus on bring a spread of DD so its easier to proc blue since they will be able to keep their main weapons on, proc fast, and be able to keep it on during the blitz.

As far as mages procing. With fanatics/monarchs and using regain atma, its not that hard for them to run and and WS when they are ready to proc. Honestly, as long as you can proc blue a lot, it shouldnt matter if you have all red procs covered as zering during stagger should cap that for you anyways. Also makes harder nms. T3 go down much faster. Hell that set up takes out the t4s from last voidwatch in 3-4 minutes while having capped lights.

SCH has more procs than RDM, including JA procs as long as it subs whm or rdm. It's also a better healer and nuker when it needs to be. Regain, and other unique buffs are also very useful in VW. Not often does the healing party ever have MP problems unless you simply SUCK at proccing, so refresh is utterly moot.

Also, you're using 1 PLD too many (possibly 2 if you put 2 in your party) unless your DDs don't have PDT MDT sets. Proc enough and a WAR or MNK would be so much more worthwhile. (Have a mage or someone with a shield sub PLD for PLD JA if you must). There are fights where you need them, like Voidwrought or Zilart (for the adds) but other than that there's no need.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

You'd be wrong. PUP has no purpose in the game. You can use it to solo DC monsters, but what can't you use to solo DC monsters?

Voidwatch? One shade below totally worthless. Oh yay, a damage source that can occasionally proc stuff.
XPing? Not an event anymore. If you don't get all the xp you need just from doing other stuff, you're leveling a new job or doin' it wrong.
Dynamis? No JA procs worth talking about, and no TH.
Abyssea? Can't even proc well in Blunt, let alone magical WSs or magic.
Salvage? Anything + Anything can duo almost every zone. PUP has no particular advantages.
WoE? Puppet recast is too long to be relevant as a pet job. As a melee it has all the same problems as every other melee.

It's worthless. I don't know how I could possibly design an event where it's not worthless.

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if you think pup is worthless in WoE you're not playing it right. Rng and BLM do very nice damage, just let the pet do the work and you don't need to Zombie on the master, and we can recall pet at 1 minute intervals, it's not weakend after death, just low on HP. With Whm finally getting a bit smarter we can finally cure decently. Go Pup/war or /dnc to Dynamis with whm or blm pups, proc JA from sub, WS from you and you may magic proc or else heal pt members. Use against any mob that charms (since pets are immune), and unlike bst you have more options than just melee damage and the occasional TP move. Take it to aby, use blm or rdm auto now and build azure and pearl solo easily, then switch to VE or SS and go nuts on damage or use rdm or whm to heal and solo. Use in voidwatch much the same as in Dynamis. Salvage auto owns versus the boss or imps, especially if everyone else will keep their distance on the charmers (although good luck being on the priority list for necessary cells). Take any frame out to GoV, they're all good there.

In fact, the only thing they aren't useful for is spamming AoE.

Pup could always do all that, we do it MUCH better now.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

SCH has more procs than RDM, including JA procs as long as it subs whm or rdm. It's also a better healer and nuker when it needs to be. Regain, and other unique buffs are also very useful in VW. Not often does the healing party ever have MP problems unless you simply SUCK at proccing, so refresh is utterly moot.

Also, you're using 1 PLD too many (possibly 2 if you put 2 in your party) unless your DDs don't have PDT MDT sets. Proc enough and a WAR or MNK would be so much more worthwhile. (Have a mage or someone with a shield sub PLD for PLD JA if you must). There are fights where you need them, like Voidwrought or Zilart (for the adds) but other than that there's no need.

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SCH's Regain is pretty moot as well with Monarch's drink. What other "unique" buffs? the enmity down spell is worthless with gnotics(sp) drink. As of now, their JA proc is not much of a point since its glitched and doesn't proc half the time even when landing.

Zilart will need 2 PLDS usually. One to hold adds.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

SCH's Regain is pretty moot as well with Monarch's drink. What other "unique" buffs? the enmity down spell is worthless with gnotics(sp) drink. As of now, their JA proc is not much of a point since its glitched and doesn't proc half the time even when landing.

Zilart will need 2 PLDS usually. One to hold adds.

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Even with just 1 tick regain, better than what RDM is doing. Too bad Temper is completely worthless, or RDM may have had a chance. (More magic procs says hi)

Only T3 zilart fight that really needs 2 PLDs is Aelo. I've tanked, along with another WAR or MNK, both Qilin and Uptala successfully.

Its risky. And I don't believe you are doing it with 100% efficiency if doing that that way.

And no, the regain is useless from SCH. It doesn't stack with Monarchs drink and Monarchs drink is stronger Regain so it does nothing.

After next update, RDM will be better than SCH. I've done tons of Voidwatch and have done way better with a RDM over a SCH. On fights where healing matters a lot (aoe damage) the SCH is still meh on AOE healing and better to have a WHM do it.

"Risky" even though I've seen PLDs wipe to uptala just as easily as any DD

Qilin you could probably do with your eyes closed

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This makes me wonder what the spirits should do better if they are ever improved. If Spirits were made similarly competent to the Black Mage and White Mage puppets, how much would it really add to summoner?

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You have to view spirits like avatar's favor. It does in no way enhance your BP:Rage spam and damage output, but it opens up new ways to support an alliance.

A functional Light Spirit would allow you to at dire situations call it out and basically add a WHM to the alliance. Bringing a WHM might have been overkill to start with, but bad luck made it a necessity. SMN simply covered it. (Or PUP, if you wanted to use that as a backup WHM solution).

A functional Light Spirit also allows you to change sub. If you can cure yourself, you can sub for example SAM and meditate TP to fill in WS triggers in VW. Or you can trigger NMs in Abyssea. Or you can simply refill MP with Myrkr if you happen to have that. I tend to sub WHM for cure IV. If I had Cure V from a trusty Light Spirit, I'd sub SCH to help nuke trigger on VW.

Other spirits have much less use. A split casting timer update like for PUP would allow them to be used as debuffers and DoTers, instead of Avatar spike damage. An obvious use would be triggers of course. But else it is mainly to avoid amnesia on an avatar, while making yourself vulnerable to silence on a spirit.

Another way to view spirits and avatars, are that avatars are for bosses and spirits are for normal mobs. After all, if a monster dies in 10 seconds, then a spirit casting nukes every 20 seconds is better than an avatar who does BPs every 45 seconds. Spirits are not meant to replace Avatars, just fill in those gaps the job has where you are just standing there watching all the BLMs, WARs etc kill monster after monster while your BP timer is ticking down.

(Best would be if spirits had -ga magic, but I doubt that would ever happen)

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And the most important question of all. Why did I delay a much needed trip to the bathroom to type this post?

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Maybe you were interested in an answer to your questions?

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

"Risky" even though I've seen PLDs wipe to uptala just as easily as any DD

Qilin you could probably do with your eyes closed

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Is it impossible? No. but for it to work well would mean you are procing pretty quickly to keep filling temp items.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

You have to view spirits like avatar's favor. It does in no way enhance your BP:Rage spam and damage output, but it opens up new ways to support an alliance.

A functional Light Spirit would allow you to at dire situations call it out and basically add a WHM to the alliance. Bringing a WHM might have been overkill to start with, but bad luck made it a necessity. SMN simply covered it. (Or PUP, if you wanted to use that as a backup WHM solution).

A functional Light Spirit also allows you to change sub. If you can cure yourself, you can sub for example SAM and meditate TP to fill in WS triggers in VW. Or you can trigger NMs in Abyssea. Or you can simply refill MP with Myrkr if you happen to have that. I tend to sub WHM for cure IV. If I had Cure V from a trusty Light Spirit, I'd sub SCH to help nuke trigger on VW.

Other spirits have much less use. A split casting timer update like for PUP would allow them to be used as debuffers and DoTers, instead of Avatar spike damage. An obvious use would be triggers of course. But else it is mainly to avoid amnesia on an avatar, while making yourself vulnerable to silence on a spirit.

Another way to view spirits and avatars, are that avatars are for bosses and spirits are for normal mobs. After all, if a monster dies in 10 seconds, then a spirit casting nukes every 20 seconds is better than an avatar who does BPs every 45 seconds. Spirits are not meant to replace Avatars, just fill in those gaps the job has where you are just standing there watching all the BLMs, WARs etc kill monster after monster while your BP timer is ticking down.

(Best would be if spirits had -ga magic, but I doubt that would ever happen)



Maybe you were interested in an answer to your questions?

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Woooooooow, I've lost all hope with thinking like that...

What... the hell did I just read?

So basically. SMN should be the best at everything?

I don't know which is the worst complaint PUP thread.... The WTF SE whining about a BLM Head getting Absorb - Attri & Dread Spikes... or this...

If it's one thing I would like the devs hear from me, it would be please don't listen to just one SMN out of many want. Not all of us have this convoluted ideal that spirits should be anything than what they are currently.

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Originally Posted by Moink

I don't know which is the worst complaint PUP thread.... The WTF SE whining about a BLM Head getting Absorb - Attri & Dread Spikes... or this...

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^ A++++++++++++++++++++++

I know it was a long time ago, but my power went out for a long time:

Byrth, if all you can solo on PUP is "DC monsters," then you're intentionally trying to fail. You're probably not using a hand to hand weapon and don't have the automaton even summoned.:confused:

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Originally Posted by Moink

I don't know which is the worst complaint PUP thread.... The WTF SE whining about a BLM Head getting Absorb - Attri & Dread Spikes... or this...

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I know which is worst. The third option. The one that combinds both threads and then siphoning out the crap and QQbutthurtRAGE comments from ones that actually bring up a valid point.

btw, I've yet to see a valid point in either of these topics that are complaining about the most broken pet ever finally getting fixed.

None of ya going to ruin MY Pupdate with all this complaining!

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Originally Posted by Mizuharu

I know which is worst. The third option. The one that combinds both threads and then siphoning out the crap and QQbutthurtRAGE comments from ones that actually bring up a valid point.

btw, I've yet to see a valid point in either of these topics that are complaining about the most broken pet ever finally getting fixed.

None of ya going to ruin MY Pupdate with all this complaining!

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my last comment notwithstanding, you're 100% correct because this update is pure win.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I know it was a long time ago, but my power went out for a long time:

Byrth, if all you can solo on PUP is "DC monsters," then you're intentionally trying to fail. You're probably not using a hand to hand weapon and don't have the automaton even summoned.:confused:

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Name something stronger than DC-EM a Pup can solo you couldn't do faster and/or safer on another job.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

So basically. SMN should be the best at everything?

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Where in the post did you see any suggetion of the kind?

I'm very satisfied with the updates to Puppetmaster as it was necessary and makes the job all the more enjoyable. What is annoying, though, is S-E's outright refusal to make similar fixes to the Summoner job. Spirits may be a secondary feature, but still needs to be made as relevant as possible when avatars aren't possible. There are still aspects to this job that need to be fixed to unshackle this job and allow it to reach it's potential.

Sorry, but I'm not trying to hear non-Summoners crying wolf about these suggestions being overpowered.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Where in the post did you see any suggetion of the kind?

I'm very satisfied with the updates to Puppetmaster as it was necessary and makes the job all the more enjoyable. What is annoying, though, is S-E's outright refusal to make similar fixes to the Summoner job. Spirits may be a secondary feature, but still needs to be made as relevant as possible when avatars aren't possible. There are still aspects to this job that need to be fixed to unshackle this job and allow it to reach it's potential.

Sorry, but I'm not trying to hear non-Summoners crying wolf about these suggestions being overpowered.

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When has an avatar NOT been possible to summon that you needed a spirit to aid you? If you're silenced then neither an avatar or spirit is available... If you lose an avatar too fast because of a heavy tp move and the monster is too close to you do I ever seem to find the need to cast a spirit for that additional time to enhance the gap between myself and said monster being fought.

It is not about the job being overpowered. It is about the utillity of the Spirits and the small role they play for as a SMN and how are ANY of the people defending PUP crying wolf? Theyre defending, as am I, the idea that PUP needed this update far more than SMN and the poor thinking that Spirits need an update such as this.

People complaining about this PUPdate need to seriously shut their pie hole... Almost every extent of the update for PUP has been picked apart by poor thinking and "envious" stupidity... I am still waiting for the RNGs and CORs to complain about the fact Sharpshot doesn't need to be at a certain distance for ranged attacks / ws... or have I not seen that thread yet?...

I really regret not just going to the bathroom immediately. Somebody wandered in there with an intent to shower after I spent a few minutes typing that post, and I had to hold it in forever. My only reward was reading someone's hopes and dreams of Light Spirit going from nigh-worthless to twice as competent as the average White Mage in a pick-up group.

If I die of lower gastrointestinal dysphoria before I die of something else then I am totally going to blame this topic and haunt somebody.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Where in the post did you see any suggetion of the kind?

I'm very satisfied with the updates to Puppetmaster as it was necessary and makes the job all the more enjoyable. What is annoying, though, is S-E's outright refusal to make similar fixes to the Summoner job. Spirits may be a secondary feature, but still needs to be made as relevant as possible when avatars aren't possible. There are still aspects to this job that need to be fixed to unshackle this job and allow it to reach it's potential.

Sorry, but I'm not trying to hear non-Summoners crying wolf about these suggestions being overpowered.

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I appreciate the view you share in your post. However there is 'crying wolf" and then there is what mellowy always does. Speaking only for myself(though i'm reasonably sure i'm prolly not alone thinking it), i'm totally for every job getting the buffs it needs/requires; but i do not think you or anyone else needs/wants mellowy out front leading the charge for you.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

I really regret not just going to the bathroom immediately. Somebody wandered in there with an intent to shower after I spent a few minutes typing that post, and I had to hold it in forever. My only reward was reading someone's hopes and dreams of Light Spirit going from nigh-worthless to twice as competent as the average White Mage in a pick-up group.

If I die of lower gastrointestinal dysphoria before I die of something else then I am totally going to blame this topic and haunt somebody.

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Just haunt the forums, make it so anyone who demands a fix to spirits, or expresses a belief that they need to be boosted to relevance dies of extreme fright in seven days.

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Name something stronger than DC-EM a Pup can solo

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Basically anything other people can? Safer? PUP is one of the safest. Faster? PUP sure as hell is faster than other popular soloists, e.g. nin/dnc/smn/even bst.

Now excuse me, sorry to interrupt your trolling effort, but I need some food.

I was being serious. Faster than who now? I think you're smoking instead of eating. Maybe a 5/5 Aurore Dnc you'll be faster than...

There is no distinct advantage to using pup pre update. So yes a Bst soloing would be more efficient than bringing Pup.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

I was being serious. Faster than who now? I think you're smoking instead of eating. Maybe a 5/5 Aurore Dnc you'll be faster than...

There is no distinct advantage to using pup pre update. So yes a Bst soloing would be more efficient than bringing Pup.

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No, it wouldn't. I'm not smoking anything. Even when geared for it, DNC is laughable as a DD, and a snail could kill faster. Amazingly easy to solo with, yes. Fast? No.

I'm not going to trash up another thread. Don't waste your time.

As bad as I think Dnc is I can't take you serious with that statement.

Would love to see a PUP solo iron giants in abyssea. Or or even see a pup solo that one treant NM from the WoTG mission.