best gear and atmas for ranger

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

/nin or /sam are the best SJs for rng. Both have their ups and downs. It really depends on what you are doing and what other jobs your teamed up with.

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/nin is worthless to rng, for any reason other then survival and even then unless your Ni timer is up, all you do is waste time trying to recast shadows instead of doing damage, /nin is comeplte garbage.

/war while it is ok for damage /sam still triumps it, the benefits of /sam like store tp sekkanoki and mediate cannot be beaten by /war in any way, shape or form. and the only useful aspect about war (berserk) only gets you killed faster when you grab hate as you have no way of stoping a mob from hitting you.

/sam wins hands down. and unlike war it actually has defensive abilites like seigan and third eye assuiming you are using a vulcan's staff, not that any other weapon is better.

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Originally Posted by Vortex

/nin is worthless to rng, for any reason other then survival and even then unless your Ni timer is up, all you do is waste time trying to recast shadows instead of doing damage, /nin is comeplte garbage.

/war while it is ok for damage /sam still triumps it, the benefits of /sam like store tp sekkanoki and mediate cannot be beaten by /war in any way, shape or form. and the only useful aspect about war (berserk) only gets you killed faster when you grab hate as you have no way of stoping a mob from hitting you.

/sam wins hands down. and unlike war it actually has defensive abilites like seigan and third eye assuiming you are using a vulcan's staff, not that any other weapon is better.

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Disagree with worthlessness of /NIN. Yes you can't do damage casting Ni. You also can't do damage dead and very poor damage weakened.
If you are at all in a fight where the risk of death from going all out is so high that you have to hold back, you've lost the very advantage you had in coming /WAR or /SAM.

/NIN is the defacto best sub for RNG if you are at all uncertain about the capabilities of your surrounding party members. If they can't keep anywhere close to your damage, then you will be dead pretty quick. Even if I have to spend 30 sec tanking a mob with Ni and Ichi, I'm better off than trying to stay alive tanking a mob with Berserk up.

Admittedly if you are partying with a group of competent DD and healers, you should never need /NIN. But sometimes you just get in a pickup group full of Level 80 Perle Polearm skilling SAM's and you know you are going to be pulling hate all night.

So $hit is situational.

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Originally Posted by Mirabelle

Disagree with worthlessness of /NIN. Yes you can't do damage casting Ni. You also can't do damage dead and very poor damage weakened.
If you are at all in a fight where the risk of death from going all out is so high that you have to hold back, you've lost the very advantage you had in coming /WAR or /SAM.

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Damage isn't a problem nin as you will lose alot of damage potential nin anyway, so in short you won't have worry about dying since you will be the lowest form of damage with other rngs there /sam. the reason /nin is worthless is because if by some miricale you do grab hate, you will die, after your 3 shadows are down, you will not get ichi back up if a mob is beating on you, you have terrible evasion. and while you are sitting there despratly trying to get ichi up, you are dying, losing damage, while a /sam will continue firing because he can just activate third eye. A good rng will never sub nin.

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/NIN is the defacto best sub for RNG if you are at all uncertain about the capabilities of your surrounding party members. If they can't keep anywhere close to your damage, then you will be dead pretty quick. Even if I have to spend 30 sec tanking a mob with Ni and Ichi, I'm better off than trying to stay alive tanking a mob with Berserk up.

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/nin is the worst possible sub period. have you actually fought anything hard as rng? /war is not the best choice either. yes a /war will die quikcker then a /nin but that is why i said /sam is the best sub of the two.

i have never been in any situiation where i said " i sure wish i was /nin. if you want to just stay alive, then you /nin you won't be doing much damage over /sams if you want big spike damage but die quickly you /war it's usualy for a "zerg" type fight anyway.

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Admittedly if you are partying with a group of competent DD and healers, you should never need /NIN. But sometimes you just get in a pickup group full of Level 80 Perle Polearm skilling SAM's and you know you are going to be pulling hate all night.

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i pull hate regardless of my sub, but that is because i have gandiva and i would be incredibly retarded to even think of subbing nin with a gandiva, but even before i did have it i still stuck to sam because it was better in every situation, but in cases like that it is called holding back i don't know what you are doing in a pick up group as rng anyway.

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So $hit is situational.

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Ineeded it is, but in this case, /nin is worse in every situation, as RNG you are there for damage, not back up tanking.

I just really really really love going /WAR for some reason. I'll go /SAM if I need to play defensively, /NIN if I absolutely must, but I'd rather just come another job tbh if they wanted me to go RNG/NIN.

I think I misread your first post as somewhat hostile, going over it again it's anything but, so there was no need for that, my bad.

But in the end we're both arguing the same thing: That SS should be better than GH.

Sea Daughter vs Stout Arm vs Gnarled Horn for the 3rd atma is another matter. For meriting and other general asshattery I would bet on Sea Daughter as there can be decent downtime between monsters. For tough NM fights, I'm fairly certain GH should beat out Stout Arm. If I was working on Gandiva instead of Armageddon right now (Maybe I'll do it in the future) it's definitely what I would use.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

The trend gets defensive and starts arguing or throwing hostile remarks. So dfid you, so yes I compared you to the general trend of people on the internet.

I'm not sure where I ever said I was a saint either. I also follow the trend of getting defensive and or responding with condesending or insulting remarks.. Yes, my first response was condesending. My second was a direct commentary on that quoted post and had nothing to do with your earlier ones. I think I misread your first post as somewhat hostile, going over it again it's anything but, so there was no need for that.

But in the end we're both arguing the same thing: That SS should be better than GH.

Sea Daughter vs Stout Arm vs Gnarled Horn for the 3rd atma is another matter.

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I am unsure on sea daughter, while it is good for feeding less TP i don't know if i'd replace a dd atma for it, part of the big damage that comes from ranger is the normal hits.

Yeah, I edited my post to expand. Essentially for exp fodder and stuff where people are pulling or you ar roaming it should be strong. But for NMs and stuff, I thinkI'd go with GH. RR/SS/GH should be really strong.

Do you have cor as well? i highly recommend getting Gandiva instead of gun if it's only for rng, now while gun is still a strong weapon and certainly not a bad choice gandiva will beat it. as even outside abyssea i can still pull off 3-5k (5k mainly with a brd) but with gun the numbers are very dissapointing, that i have to go back to slugshot (not that i use gun over bow on rng anyway)

Yes I have Cor as well. My choice for Armageddon was based on a few factors: It's usable by two of my jobs. It's awesome for bewing important stuff I'm still missing or will need in the future (such as certain NM 85>90 mats, and Rani) but mainly because it's something I can do by myself without relying on others for help (although I have recently joined a lowman (5~ ppl) empy shell) as my main ls is in a timezone 11hrs away and no longer does abyssea anyway.

The gun has a almost hate free ws even if it is magic based so there is a high chance it would actually do more dmg then gandiva. on important things such as void stuff.

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

The gun has a almost hate free ws even if it is magic based so there is a high chance it would actually do more dmg then gandiva. on important things such as void stuff.

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i think you have it confused with relic gun, i'm talking about armagaddon, the empy one. and even still, no other weapon will out damage gandiva. unless of course it has a huge physcial resistence or immunity entierly, but i carry both in case that happens anyway.

actually it did say enimity generation varies with tp, but outside wildefire is pretty bad.

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the reason /nin is worthless is because if by some miricale you do grab hate, you will die, after your 3 shadows are down, you will not get ichi back up if a mob is beating on you, you have terrible evasion. and while you are sitting there despratly trying to get ichi up, you are dying, losing damage, while a /sam will continue firing because he can just activate third eye. A good rng will never sub nin.

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Learn to tank. I can count shadows and get Ichi up before Ni falls.

Again if you dont party with competent DD's and mages, /NIN will keep you upright longer than /war and even /Sam. If the rest of you party is competent, then a stronger DD sub is great. If you've never been with poor Dd and mages, then bully for you. The world is your oyster.
For those of us that still slum it on occasion, going /war is a recipe for constant dirt naps.

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Originally Posted by Mirabelle

Learn to tank. I can count shadows and get Ichi up before Ni falls.

Again if you dont party with competent DD's and mages, /NIN will keep you upright longer than /war and even /Sam. If the rest of you party is competent, then a stronger DD sub is great. If you've never been with poor Dd and mages, then bully for you. The world is your oyster.
For those of us that still slum it on occasion, going /war is a recipe for constant dirt naps.

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Learn2rng

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I can count shadows and get Ichi up before Ni falls.

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And while you are "counting shadows" you are losing damage potentional
while as /sam you chunk up segian/third eye and keep shooting, and of course if you get hit, no shadows, let me guess, you try to cast it again? so you sit there for 10 seconds wasting time with shadows while a mob is beating you in the head. yes, very effective.


Nin is worthless, period, all the time, everytime. most stuff i fight is usually dead before it has a chance to do damage. /sam has kept me alive in almost every situation the same as you are claiming nin does. except with /nin my overall damage is LESS giving the mob more chances to kill me. it's trash, period. nor do i /war, that is just suicide and still less damage then sam, stop defending /nin when it has already been proven to be the worst sub for rng by good rngs. learn to play rng better and you will say it. again /nin sucks in every situation, unless you're a full Pink rng that already didn't know any better. End of story. if you want to sub nin, great. but gimping your damage for shadows you don't need is very ineffective. it's not debeatable.


I know RNG is extreamly hard for you to play, i understand, in the end people can sub whatever they want. but things like that crap is what separates the good rngs from ones that just no clue how to be effeicient. even Rng/drg is a better option to shed hate if the fight is a hate cautious and proves better then /nin..
End.

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Originally Posted by Vortex

i think you have it confused with relic gun, i'm talking about armagaddon, the empy one. and even still, no other weapon will out damage gandiva. unless of course it has a huge physcial resistence or immunity entierly, but i carry both in case that happens anyway.

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I believe the theory was being able to spam wildfire with very little hate repeatedly causing you to do more damage over the course of the fight than using Jishnu's Radience and having to hold back or stop damage because you're gaining too much hate.

As I said though, my choice in doing Armageddon first was based 80% on it's stupid easy to get and 10% being able to WF brew things and 10% being usable by 2 of my jobs.

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And while you are "counting shadows" you are losing damage potentional

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So is the /WAR and /SAM holding back while they wait for the mob to quit pounding on them. Or even better running around thinking that will get the mob off them.

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while as /sam you chunk up segian/third eye and keep shootin

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Yes increasing your enmity as the mob is focused on you will definitely improve the situation. Your WHM's must really love you.

Again, stuff is situational. You are clearly a man of extremes that can't see the middle ground. There are times where /NIN serves the RNG better and times that /SAM and /WAR serve the RNG better. If you've never seen it then, as i said before, bully for you. But I've seen many a case where the RNG/WAR spends the whole fight dead while the RNG/NIN keeps plugging along. I've seen JP players boot the RNG/WAR for sucking too much MP and slowing down the party. You look at the party, you look at the task and you look at what your best sub would be to accomplish that task. Usually its RNG/SAM in my experience, but not always.

In many ways it doesn't matter what you are subbing, because you are restricted on how much dmg you do. Sub sam will give you more dmg but you have to hold back anyways. Nin will give you less dmg but you don't have to hold back as much so it all evens out in the end.

Now after patch hopefully that will change with decoy shot, then we can have a bit more fun. But it is my belief that enmity on ranged attacks has been bugged for a very long time. I can see a sam do a 2k ws nother other melee dmg, I do a 1.5k ws no other damage with -20 or so enmity and I will pull hate everytime.

When hate was an issue (Like Odin, or T4 VNM, or Ixion) you didn't sub /sam or /nin. You subbed /Drg for High Jump. 25% Enmity reduction on a 3minute timer, nothing spectacular, but worthwhile. Every option resulted in you gimping your dmage, but this way the mob was less likely to move.

Just cheat like I did and build a yoichinoyumi. Lol >.>

With the Relic WSDmg boosts, does Namas Arrow put up damage comparable to Sidewinder now?

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Originally Posted by Mirabelle

So is the /WAR and /SAM holding back while they wait for the mob to quit pounding on them. Or even better running around thinking that will get the mob off them.

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I never once said /war was a good idea, war is good for straight damage, with no defense. it's not at all viable for either offense nor defense. your goal is to kill the mob, not let it live as long as possible.

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Yes increasing your enmity as the mob is focused on you will definitely improve the situation. Your WHM's must really love you.

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Yes they do, because the mob is usually dead or about to die. due to the damage output as RNG/SAM if it is a dangerous mob you would be holding back anyway untill a time needed to unleash and as /sam i can dish out 3 wss including one that can self light while you have to struggle just to get 100 tp without barrage as /nin, again, rng is not a tank. sometimes you have to accept deaths in order to get the job done, and if you are afraid of dying (which is clear since you are so dependant on shadows) then you are on the wrong job.

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Again, stuff is situational. You are clearly a man of extremes that can't see the middle ground. There are times where /NIN serves the RNG better and times that /SAM and /WAR serve the RNG better. If you've never seen it then, as i said before, bully for you. But I've seen many a case where the RNG/WAR spends the whole fight dead while the RNG/NIN keeps plugging along. I've seen JP players boot the RNG/WAR for sucking too much MP and slowing down the party. You look at the party, you look at the task and you look at what your best sub would be to accomplish that task. Usually its RNG/SAM in my experience, but not always.

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No i am somone who actually understands RNGs power as well as it's limits /war is not recommended either,

Shadows do not stop multiple hit tp moves / siegan +third eye does, if something does a five fold attack on you, you will not only lose those 3 shadows but take damage anyway and if you just casted ni you are pretty much screwed for the duration of your timer. third eye will not only absorb that five fold attack but stay up for any further attack done on you after words. and it's on a constant 30 second timer when paired with segian. so there is already your flaw in your only reason for subbing nin, it will overall be better for suvivablity. as to even get decent timers on shadows you would have to carry a full haste set on rng just for an inferior sub, and carrying a haste set outside meeling on rng is already dumb.

Weither you accept it or not, /sam will always be superior to /nin and /war for pretty much every situation.

you are free to sub it if you wish, but it will serve you nothing more then a "crutch" that has that years old sticker people have had a problem with "i cannot function without shadows"

summery

/war is for all out damage with no defense,

/nin is for only defense with limited offense, your damage will suffer and the mobs will live longer because you are gimping your self.

/sam is for better damage output better defense overall. because while third eye is random is more reliable then shadows when you do grab hate it takes one second to put up 3rd eye.

It also has the added benefit of sekkanoki ( self explaitory 2 WS for 100 tp)
medidate gradual TP

Store TP increased TP gain, meaning youw ill get 100 tp faster then with the other 2 subs.

now i can't sit here and tell you what to sub. it's clear you don't know anything other then /nin but if you actually want to bring out the full potentional of RNG /nin is certainly not anywhere near what you need. if you need shadows that badly change to nin or thf/nin. rng is not where you do it.

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I believe the theory was being able to spam wildfire with very little hate repeatedly causing you to do more damage over the course of the fight than using Jishnu's Radience and having to hold back or stop damage because you're gaining too much hate.

As I said though, my choice in doing Armageddon first was based 80% on it's stupid easy to get and 10% being able to WF brew things and 10% being usable by 2 of my jobs.

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Actually, that is a nice reminder, i will keep that in mind for future fights. i had made a build for wildfire on rng in case i ever needed to use it, i comeplty overlooked the reduced enimity the WS gives. my orginal reason for getting gun WAS for RNG strangly enough, i just loved it on COR more for obvious reasons, but after i got gandiva it took a back seat.

The Relic bow/gun WS is just about the same damage as sidewinder once you get the 90 version. That's why, it won't put up the crazy numbers Jishnu does but it will easily beat it on anything Jishnu can't 1 shot.
With Stout Arm, VV, Sea Doughter and /sam the amount of TP gained and normal shot damage is very good.
But that's just IMO and I still find Gandiva to be a crazy good weapon for anyone who can't spend the time/gil on relic bow/gun since the quest for them sucks vs. Gandiva's quest path.

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

It's just about the same damage as sidewinder once you get the 90 version. That's why, it won't put up the crazy numbers Jishnu does but it will easily beat it on anything Jishnu can't 1 shot.
With Stout Arm, VV, Sea Doughter and /sam the amount of TP gained and normal shot damage is very good.
But that's just IMO and I still find Gandiva to be a crazy good weapon for anyone who can't spend the time/gil on relic bow/gun since the quest for them sucks vs. Gandiva's quest path.

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Bhukis is a mood killer for bow, is a horrible trial NM and the only reason i put off getting the bow long ago, while fistule was a joke, since his wings actually gave you the WS, i dreaded it, but thanks to my shell they helped me with over half of the wings and i got it done, namas arrow is great for hate free damage but sadly i do not have the paitence to bother with it, especialy with having gandiva. but i do love gandiva because things die very quickly with jishnu's and i love it.

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Originally Posted by Vortex

Bhukis is a mood killer for bow, is a horrible trial NM and the only reason i put off getting the bow long ago...

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I burnt out finishing bow and stopped playing for like 2 months. I'm not sure how I'm going to get those 75 fangs...

Alfard isn't very hard at all. Shouldn't have any issues with a NIN + WHM at the bare minimum. My shell merced quite a bit of widowmakers so I ended up getting most of the ones from them. I'm currently sitting at around 50/75 and I plan to build up some crour and openly ask people to bring pop sets to brew them, just for the sake of getting it done.

What's everyones opinion on Griffon Claw? I've been curious about using that Atma with a Mekki Shakki.

Good question. It would provid a good chunk of damage to your WS, but offer nothing to TP. Maybe with Stout Arm and Sea Daughter it would be good if you got a solid 4 hit build going. It wont beat out RR/SS/GH for Jishnu's, but could be worthwhile for gun.

Although, concidering the huge boost that dead aim gives, it could be worth trying to boost your normal per hit damage with crit based atmas like RR and SS and/or GH and just accepting that most of your damage will come from the TP phase and you will have mediocre WSs.

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

/nin or /sam are the best SJs for rng. Both have their ups and downs. It really depends on what you are doing and what other jobs your teamed up with.

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What reason should you ever sub NIN besides skilling up axe? /nin serves no point.

It really depends on the skill level of the other players. Ie. If your pulling hate just from a single double shot every pull and you are low on healing/support the shadows are nice. It's also a great sub if you are in a zone with lots if sneak + invisible mobs and you just want to be lazy.

Translation: Good if I'm being gimp or if the other party members are being gimp?

That depends on how good the RNG is with shadows. With shadows you can often tank long enough to not die after pulling hate. But with /Sam you are relying on third eye to last long enough and you also lose the ability to take any single Target magic spells.
At that point /nin will win since the /Sam is dead. However, overall yes. /Sam is much better then anything else RNG can sub but I would not call /nin useless.

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

If your pulling hate just from a single double shot every pull

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They're gimp

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

It's also a great sub if you are in a zone with lots if sneak + invisible mobs and you just want to be lazy.

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You're being gimp!

Trolling aside. People need to stop neglecting /Drg as a sub.

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Translation: Good if I'm being gimp or if the other party members are being gimp?

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Exactly. Sometimes other party members are not that great and it becomes a detriment to be so outdamaging that you are constantly pulling hate. If you are constantly holding back /SAM, you've lost every bit of the advantage it gives you.

And sometimes it is OK to be lazy. If what you are doing isn't terribly difficult and biggest challenge is getting around sight and sound aggro, then utsusemi, tonko and monomi are perfectly good reasons to go around /NIN.

Do a Sea all RNG sometime. It might surprise you. (i.e. on Odin the most common sub is neither NIN, SAM or WAR). Everything has its uses and I don't think there is any argument that for damage /WAR, /SAM are king. But that doesn't make all subs useless given every activity in this game is no longer a zerg.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

They're gimp
You're being gimp!

Trolling aside. People need to stop neglecting /Drg as a sub.

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With things shifting from abyssea to much harder content like void I can see /DRG being the best sj. Especially when you combine it with decoy shot.

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With things shifting from abyssea to much harder content like void I can see /DRG being the best sj. Especially when you combine it with decoy shot.

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Well if they moved Super Jump to level 49 from 50, I could see that. As it is Attack Bonus I and High Jump (which has a range restriction of 10' and only sheds 30% enmity as a subjob) isn't enough yet to make me jump on the /DRG bandwagon yet (pardon the pun).
But its a viable subjob if all you are concerned about is enmity shedding. Admittedly its a bit like /NIN in that it offers minimal offensive advantages making it less likely you'll take hate meaning its less likely you'll need the High Jump effect.

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Originally Posted by Mirabelle

Admittedly its a bit like /NIN in that it offers minimal offensive advantages making it less likely you'll take hate meaning its less likely you'll need the High Jump effect.

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You should still eventually be coming close to CE cap on tough fights.

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

However, it will lose to relic gun and bow in overall dmg on harder mobs because relics won't have to hold back like the emp rng would.

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Real rangers get a Yoich and Gandiva

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Originally Posted by Nynja

Real rangers get a Yoich and Gandiva

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Man if you could fund me a yoich i would get it just for the very few fights i would have to hate control, but i actually do think wildfire took its place for the time being, as i would use empy gun instead if hate is an issue, because it is almost impossible not to grab hate after a jishnu's on...anything. unless it's a war tank, then i would need 2-3 more.

Is Wildfire even that good outside of abyssea on rng?

should be better than slugshot.

Slugshot is crap ._.