Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Again yes things will out Damage me, yes they will out buff me yes they will out heal me. but all at the same time I doubt it with the exception of RDM and SCH maybe but hate can become a problem.
DNCs one buff isn't better than all SMN buffs.
BRD this BRD /WHM to heal pull and DD?
WHM yes great DDs but I've yet to see one main heal and buff and while DDing

The fact we can do all three easily at the same time is a good reason to except us.

I'm not trying to say we'll out perform anything just that we perform well enough make usm a worthwhile invite

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Okay, I'm sorry, but just because you haven't seen a player good enough to do all 3 at the same time doesn't mean it's not very possible and it happens plenty. Personally, I'm more than capable of healing and buffing while DD'ing on my White Mage.

I also never claimed Brd was pulling while DD'ing. They can heal, they can March/Ballad, and they can DD simultaneously. I brought up pulling as a testament to just how much free time Bards have in parties.

And yes. DNC's one buff really, really is. Especially if there's already a bard in the party. But even if there isn't, it is.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

ISays the "OH NO! 500 DAMAGE!" wimp!

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Any attack that takes 63% of your life is a threat unless you're an idiot. Dude Don't all people a wimp because of how they play a character in a game it makes you sound pathetic it really does.

My point was that if you we're needed to spam AoE cures to keep the party alive(this is as well as the WHM healing) a SMN should really be nowhere near it

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Any attack that takes 63% of your life is a threat unless you're an idiot.

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500/.63 = 800 HP in Abyssea?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Okay, I'm sorry, but just because you haven't seen a player good enough to do all 3 at the same time doesn't mean it's not very possible and it happens plenty. Personally, I'm more than capable of healing and buffing while DD'ing on my White Mage.

I also never claimed Brd was pulling while DD'ing. They can heal, they can March/Ballad, and they can DD simultaneously. I brought up pulling as a testament to just how much free time Bards have in parties.

And yes. DNC's one buff really, really is. Especially if there's already a bard in the party. But even if there isn't, it is.

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You misunderstand I've never seen a player have enough free time to do all 3 without atleast 1 of them being sacrificed.

I can pull too never tried it while DD/buffing/support though but I'd say I'm just as capable of doing it as your BRD.

Again theres usually a THF or NIN /DNC in a group so why waste the spot on DNC if they're there for the buff

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Originally Posted by Dallas

500/.63 = 800 HP in Abyssea?

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I'm talking about outside Abyssea, I mean what NMs are you fighting that they only do 500 in an attack to a SMN in Abyssea

I was worried you couldn't count way to point out what everyone in the thread probably eyeballed

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I'm talking about outside Abyssea, I mean what NMs are you fighting that they only do 500 in an attack to a SMN in Abyssea

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Seeing how rarely I die, I'm guessing most of them.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

GG will avoid the question as long as it benefits the BG cause.

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What question? A solo WAR with absolutely zero buffs versus a solo SMN?

WAR/SAM with Ukon 90, RCB and Hasso, level 95 target with 420 def 85 VIT, SS/RR/Apoc: 356.831

SMN/SAM with Hvergelmir 90, RBC, Haste, and Hasso, same target: 176.057

Garuda brings that up to 288, give or take.

That's not a 7% difference (hint: it's about 25%). It's also heavily in Summoner's favor because they're getting Haste and the WAR isn't.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Seeing how rarely I die, I'm guessing most of them.

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I'm beginning to think you're not as stupid as you come across and you carefully select what you melee on as opposed to the persona of "OMG SMN melee is the best thing EVAR! I do it on everything" you push here

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Originally Posted by Razushu

You misunderstand I've never seen a player have enough free time to do all 3 without atleast 1 of them being sacrificed.

I can pull too never tried it while DD/buffing/support though but I'd say I'm just as capable of doing it as your BRD.

Again theres usually a THF or NIN /DNC in a group so why waste the spot on DNC if they're there for the buff

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Players have a lot more free time than they realize. A lot of it is just used up thinking about things. After you've played this game for long enough, you really don't need to stop and think any more. When all you need to do is act, you find yourself scrambling to find more things to do to prevent downtime and boredom.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

It's still the reason why you aren't able to compare YOUR SMN, which hasn't showed up on the radar.

As far as I've seen, there has been no explanation of the following "mathies" flaws:

1) Why they think there is always a pt of exactly 6. Doesn't happen.
2) Why that non-existant pt always has 3 types of haste, only one healer and a WAR who subs /SAM. Doesn't happen.
3) Why a WAR with 80% haste is worried about the WHM running out of MP (in abyssea) instead of the WHM keeping up with heals.
4) Why they think that Ukon math extends to every DD with every weapon.
5) Why SMN being one of the buffers (and backup healers) counts for nothing, and that only DD matters.
6) Why it's OK for a WAR to drop /SAM to fight the claims in #5, as if it does nothing to their epeen setup in #2. They lose Hasso and their Haste Samba is half potency if they use it.
7) WARs are scared to death of the unbuffed maths. Why is that?

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Nobody is scared of an unbuffed war, it is still better dmg than smn. Now you're just grasping for straws because your argument holds no water.

Errr.... I'm not sure what happened, but:
1) Haste Samba can be very useful, especially if you have a BRD/WHM. In comparison, most of Summoner's buffs (including several of the ones named) aren't worth the time it takes to use them.
2) Stoneskin from WHM/SCH caps at 350 without Stoneskin enhancing gear. If I get bored later, I'll go see how high I can pump Titan's up. If anyone else wants to test, the best way would be:
* Earthen Ward with full skill gear
* Send him after a cactaur in Western Altepa.
* Do about 75% damage to the Cactaur (should be 1-2 TP moves) and then heel him if 1000 needles hasn't gone off yet.
* Spam Dia/Dia II on the Cactaur until it uses 1000 Needles.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Players have a lot more free time than they realize. A lot of it is just used up thinking about things. After you've played this game for long enough, you really don't need to stop and think any more. When all you need to do is act, you find yourself scrambling to find more things to do to prevent downtime and boredom.

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Well I guess we have that in common then lol, I found ways to fill my time to. Like I keep saying I'm not trying to convince people that SMN = support king, but if you have a dedicated SMN it can do well enought that the party will notice an improvement worth having the SMN there.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

What question? A solo WAR with absolutely zero buffs versus a solo SMN?

WAR/SAM with Ukon 90, RCB and Hasso, level 95 target with 420 def 85 VIT, SS/RR/Apoc: 356.831

SMN/SAM with Hvergelmir 90, RBC, Haste, and Hasso, same target: 176.057

Garuda brings that up to 288, give or take.

That's not a 7% difference (hint: it's about 25%). It's also heavily in Summoner's favor because they're getting Haste and the WAR isn't.

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And the SMN isn't getting Warcry, and the WAR isn't getting healed. It's a start, but we know that WAR is subbing /DNC.

EDIT: oh, and SMN know what food is too. I am well over 600 attack solo.

You dont make ANY sense, why would the war sub dnc?

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Errr.... I'm not sure what happened, but:
1) Haste Samba can be very useful, especially if you have a BRD/WHM. In comparison, most of Summoner's buffs (including several of the ones named) aren't worth the time it takes to use them.
2) Stoneskin from WHM/SCH caps at 350 without Stoneskin enhancing gear. If I get bored later, I'll go see how high I can pump Titan's up. If anyone else wants to test, the best way would be:
* Earthen Ward with full skill gear
* Send him after a cactaur in Western Altepa.
* Do about 75% damage to the Cactaur (should be 1-2 TP moves) and then heel him if 1000 needles hasn't gone off yet.
* Spam Dia/Dia II on the Cactaur until it uses 1000 Needles.

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I'd like to see that test never really used it unless specifically asked or i get bored waiting for fight to start so I've never really worried too much on the math, just took the wiki at face value here

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Originally Posted by Aurara

You dont make ANY sense, why would the war sub dnc?

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He's solo. Duh.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

You dont make ANY sense, why would the war sub dnc?

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I think so he'll be getting a loss in haste gained and the parse might favor Dallas a little more

Good grief. SMN solos better than WAR.

Everyone in the world knows this. No legitimate point is being proven here.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

It's still the reason why you aren't able to compare YOUR SMN, which hasn't showed up on the radar.

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Because I'm not stupid like you and make baseless remarks saying "I can do more damage than an Ukon WAR"

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As far as I've seen, there has been no explanation of the following "mathies" flaws:

1) Why they think there is always a pt of exactly 6. Doesn't happen.
2) Why that non-existant pt always has 3 types of haste, only one healer and a WAR who subs /SAM. Doesn't happen.
3) Why a WAR with 80% haste is worried about the WHM running out of MP (in abyssea) instead of the WHM keeping up with heals.
4) Why they think that Ukon math extends to every DD with every weapon.
5) Why SMN being one of the buffers (and backup healers) counts for nothing, and that only DD matters.
6) Why it's OK for a WAR to drop /SAM to fight the claims in #5, as if it does nothing to their epeen setup in #2. They lose Hasso and their Haste Samba is half potency if they use it.
7) WARs are scared to death of the unbuffed maths. Why is that?

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Ok then:

1) Because 6+ parties don't exist. Well, for you they don't, but everyone else?
2) Because the best damage comes from capped haste. In case you didn't know, because you aren't a DD, there are 3 types of haste: gear, magic, and job ability. Well, you need 3 jobs to give you those 3 types of haste to cap, since job ability haste (outside of DRK) can't be capped without 2 of those jobs. But nobody expected you to know that.
3) Believe it or not, things hit for more than 20 damage per hit. WARs can tank, really easy, which is saying much more than what you can do. Nobody expected you to know that, since you can't do enough damage to get to the top of the hate list, so here you go. More damage = higher enmity = tanking. Broke it down to your reading comprehension I hope. Sorry for the lack of colors, I didn't bring any crayons.
4) Because there are more Ukons than Emp staves out there? They were giving you the benefit of the doubt, made you look really good, and yet, WAR still beat you 5 to 1.
5) Because your argument of beating a Ukon WAR in total damage ability.
6) Your reading comprehension sucks, you know that, right? That was not the argument, the argument was Haste vs Haste Samba.
7) Buffed Math made SMNs look good. You want unbuffed Math instead? Why? So the difference would be 10 to 1 in favor of WAR?

You were the one spouting your mouth off. Everyone has proven you wrong, why haven't you learned to shush and saved yourself even more embarrassment on your part? Everyone who reads this thread is never going to take anything you say, and you keep giving everyone more reason to ignore you. If not for the sake of everyone, for your sake, just stop typing and log out of this forum.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

He's solo. Duh.

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then why is the SMN/SAM?

So he can pretend that he's doing more dmg than the war of course.
Edit: Dallas, you continue to argue a losing side, its like arguing physics of KFK assassination of being false(something I have done for a school project). No matter how much you try and argue your side, the evidence, the physical.mathematical evidence is true, and you can't prove it wrong.

GG, are those numbers including extra attacks from retaliation? And are you assuming that the war and smn have the same accuracy?

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Errr.... I'm not sure what happened, but:
1) Haste Samba can be very useful, especially if you have a BRD/WHM. In comparison, most of Summoner's buffs (including several of the ones named) aren't worth the time it takes to use them.
2) Stoneskin from WHM/SCH caps at 350 without Stoneskin enhancing gear. If I get bored later, I'll go see how high I can pump Titan's up. If anyone else wants to test, the best way would be:
* Earthen Ward with full skill gear
* Send him after a cactaur in Western Altepa.
* Do about 75% damage to the Cactaur (should be 1-2 TP moves) and then heel him if 1000 needles hasn't gone off yet.
* Spam Dia/Dia II on the Cactaur until it uses 1000 Needles.

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Wouldn't venom potions be easier? possibly in conjunction with sublimation?

Retaliation not being countered is leaning it in the Summoner's favor, which is how bad the disparity is. Accuracy is assumed capped (not too hard on the target mob inside abyssea).

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Originally Posted by Khiinroye

GG, are those numbers including extra attacks from retaliation? And are you assuming that the war and smn have the same accuracy?

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Completely ignoring Blood Rage, Retaliation, Meditate, and Sekkanoki + Self-Light. All of which tip the balance severely into WAR's favor even further. I was also assuming a level 95 target with 407 Eva and 92 AGI, which the Summoner would be capping accuracy on.

However, I did totally slip up and forget that Summoners don't have A+ skill in Staff, so the corrected SMN DPS is 163.309 or 275 with Garuda.

While the master is clearly capable of more than the avatar, it's still pointless to argue that SMN can even breathe the same air as basically one of the best DDs in the game with the best gear.

Please, just stop dallas, you're not helping your cause at all.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Errr.... I'm not sure what happened, but:
1) Haste Samba can be very useful, especially if you have a BRD/WHM. In comparison, most of Summoner's buffs (including several of the ones named) aren't worth the time it takes to use them.
2) Stoneskin from WHM/SCH caps at 350 without Stoneskin enhancing gear. If I get bored later, I'll go see how high I can pump Titan's up. If anyone else wants to test, the best way would be:
* Earthen Ward with full skill gear
* Send him after a cactaur in Western Altepa.
* Do about 75% damage to the Cactaur (should be 1-2 TP moves) and then heel him if 1000 needles hasn't gone off yet.
* Spam Dia/Dia II on the Cactaur until it uses 1000 Needles.

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281 damage absorbed.

Yeah, not the same as Stoneskin, but not the 220 that wiki says.

So Earthen Ward isn't as good as a WHM/SCH's version. At least we get that out of the way. But I still say that SMN's buffs is much better than DNC because it has other buffs besides haste. If given the choice between DNC or SMN, I would probably pick DNC because their haste is JA haste, not spell haste. But working together, SMN still outshines DNC.

Edit: If it helps any at all, my BP:W macro has 438 Summoning Magic associated with it. My BP:R macro is different than BP:W because I don't care much about the 15 seconds on Wards than I do for Rages. Soloing, I don't need to cure my avatar once every 45 seconds, more like once every minute. Now by the looks of it, SMN magic does more than extend the timer of Wards.

What buff does SMN give that can rival 10% Haste? They have literally 0 offensive buffs that stack with DNC aside from Acc+ or that stat+ thing, and their only decent defensive buffs are either outclassed by more mainstream jobs (Aerial Armor and Earthen Ward) or are basically worthless (Eva boost?). Shock spikes?

Serious question at this point, because I'm really just not seeing it.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

What buff does SMN give that can rival 10% Haste? They have literally 0 offensive buffs that stack with DNC aside from Acc+ or that stat+ thing, and their only decent defensive buffs are either outclassed by more mainstream jobs (Aerial Armor and Earthen Ward) or are basically worthless (Eva boost?). Shock spikes?

Serious question at this point, because I'm really just not seeing it.

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Magic Attack Bonus/Magic Defensive Bonus comes to mind. They are the only type of buffs you can get outside of rolls. No other job except a Diffusion BLU can give you anything near it.

I know that there is not a situation where a SMN's buffs would make/break a kill, but we are talking about situations where a SMN can help. DNC can give one type of buff, SMN can adapt to a multitude of buffs. If the mob is evasive enough where the DDs need to have more accuracy, you can give the DDs a Ecliptic Roar and have the DDs eat meat instead of sushi or pizza.

Any buff a SMN can give will increase the kill speed and/or decrease the death speed. DNC too, but DNC's buff only on both the DD's ability to hit the mob and the DNC's ability to hit the mob, a wiff from a DD and they lose the buff.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

WAR/SAM with Ukon 90, RCB and Hasso, level 95 target with 420 def 85 VIT, SS/RR/Apoc: 356.831

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I'm just pissing off everyone else by mentioning solo. A realistic scenario is somewhere in between. I needed the numbers to the value of buffs. Thank you.


So, quick calcs:

4x WAR is 1400 damage, 1 WAR buffed by 3 people is 1000 damage. Seems pretty stupid to buff a WAR unless you assume those buffers are also dealing damage. Argument pro-melee SMN, melee DNC, etc.

Splitting:

The WAR is contributing little more to a party, but I will give him credit for bringing 35% haste out of 80%. I'll split 650 (WAR buffs) and 125 (SMN buffs) accordingly.

WAR (35% self, no party haste) : 284 (self) + 0 SMN + 350 unbuffed = 634
SMN (48% self, 15% party) : 122 (WAR) + 75 self + 275 unbuffed = 472
DNC (10% party): 81 (WAR) + 16 (SMN) + ??? = 97 + ???
BRD (up to cap): 167 (WAR) + 34 (SMN) + ??? = 201 + ???

Obviously, SMN would get more contribution if the DNC and BRD meleed as well. Someone needs to melee, because one meleeing WAR isn't enough.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Magic Attack Bonus/Magic Defensive Bonus comes to mind. They are the only type of buffs you can get outside of rolls. No other job except a Diffusion BLU can give you anything near it.

I know that there is not a situation where a SMN's buffs would make/break a kill, but we are talking about situations where a SMN can help. DNC can give one type of buff, SMN can adapt to a multitude of buffs. If the mob is evasive enough where the DDs need to have more accuracy, you can give the DDs a Ecliptic Roar and have the DDs eat meat instead of sushi or pizza.

Any buff a SMN can give will increase the kill speed and/or decrease the death speed. DNC too, but DNC's buff only on both the DD's ability to hit the mob and the DNC's ability to hit the mob, a wiff from a DD and they lose the buff.

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SMN can definitely buff a mage party pretty well, no argument there. I'm pretty sure SMN/RDM is still king for most party refresh in a single party slot as well. I was speaking solely in terms of SMN in a DD party.

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I don't know of any other job that can solo Onvi.....

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Wow, every time, every forum you prove just how much you suck at this game.

You can solo Ovni on a lot of jobs including but not limited to bst, thf, mnk, pup, dnc, etc.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I'm just pissing off everyone else by mentioning solo. A realistic scenario is somewhere in between. I needed the numbers to the value of buffs. Thank you.


So, quick calcs:

4x WAR is 1400 damage, 1 WAR buffed by 3 people is 1000 damage. Seems pretty stupid to buff a WAR unless you assume those buffers are also dealing damage. Argument pro-melee SMN, melee DNC, etc.

Splitting:

The WAR is contributing little more to a party, but I will give him credit for bringing 35% haste out of 80%. I'll split 650 (WAR buffs) and 125 (SMN buffs) accordingly.

WAR (35% self, no party haste) : 284 (self) + 0 SMN + 350 unbuffed = 634
SMN (48% self, 15% party) : 122 (WAR) + 75 self + 275 unbuffed = 472
DNC (10% party): 81 (WAR) + 16 (SMN) + ??? = 97 + ???
BRD (up to cap): 167 (WAR) + 34 (SMN) + ??? = 201 + ???

Obviously, SMN would get more contribution if the DNC and BRD meleed as well. Someone needs to melee, because one meleeing WAR isn't enough.

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Rhetorical question: Are you dumb?

The DNC has to melee period, Samba doesn't just magically appear on the mobs. They're also damn good at it. White mages and Bards are in decent parties anyways. 3x DD, BRD, WHM, DNC is a perfectly solid, common party setup for groups that, well, don't suck and are actually bringing 6 people. Hell, it's not uncommon to just do 4x DD, BRD/NIN, DNC, with a WHM outside the party because they're perfectly capable of Accessioning Cures and Shell if they need to. The only reason you don't see it more often in high-end groups is that they don't always bring 6 people, or they're bringing 6 people but including Grellow triggers.

Summoner is the weakest link. Putting them in a group means ditching a WAR, and receiving no new buffs of any value from the Summoner (herp you think they don't have a WHM for Haste?).

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Wow, every time, every forum you prove just how much you suck at this game.

You can solo Ovni on a lot of jobs including but not limited to bst, thf, mnk, pup, dnc, etc.

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Hey Dallas, I got a friend for you.

Besides that, you obviously don't read later on and see that I already stated that I didn't know that a THF or DNC have solo'd Ovni also. I knew a RDM could at level 85, but with brew, so I didn't count that.

How about reading everything before typing? K?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Hey Dallas, I got a friend for you.

Besides that, you obviously don't read later on and see that I already stated that I didn't know that a THF or DNC have solo'd Ovni also. I knew a RDM could at level 85, but with brew, so I didn't count that.

How about reading everything before typing? K?

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If you were an idiot on page 2, then I'm going to call you an idiot. If someone came and told you differently later and you realized you were wrong, you were still wrong. I don't need to read 17 pages to tell you a statement you made on page 2 was wrong.

Whether or not you corrected it later is of no concern to me.


Edit: Also you I didn't need to read you saying you didn't know other jobs could solo it when i already knew you didn't know that based on what you said from page 2

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

If you were an idiot on page 2, then I'm going to call you an idiot. If someone came and told you differently later and you realized you were wrong, you were still wrong. I don't need to read 17 pages to tell you a statement you made on page 2 was wrong.

Whether or not you corrected it later is of no concern to me.


Edit: Also you I didn't need to read you saying you didn't know other jobs could solo it when i already knew you didn't know that based on what you said from page 2

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I was corrected, and unlike you, I accept my mistakes.

It is not my fault you refuse to read past the first sentence, and like to point out every little mistake everyone else makes just to boost your ego.

Besides, why are you here anyway? You have nothing to contribute to this thread. Unless you are here to show your support to Dallas. I see you got your pompoms out for him already.

RDM could solo Ovni at 80 without brew, but that's not really the point. Besides, who wasted 2,000,000 cruor on Ovni at 85? I legitimately did not know that someone actually did something so ... dumb.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I was corrected, and unlike you, I accept my mistakes.

It is not my fault you refuse to read past the first sentence, and like to point out every little mistake everyone else makes just to boost your ego.

Besides, why are you here anyway? You have nothing to contribute to this thread. Unless you are here to show your support to Dallas. I see you got your pompoms out for him already.

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Korpg, worst assumption in the land

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

SMN can definitely buff a mage party pretty well, no argument there. I'm pretty sure SMN/RDM is still king for most party refresh in a single party slot as well. I was speaking solely in terms of SMN in a DD party.

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I can give 15% haste, 8% attk bonus and 35~dmg enfire full time with room for another buff in the cycle

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

(herp you think they don't have a WHM for Haste?).

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You're talking to the SMN who hastes their pets. It's the only way. The SMN hastes that party. You also have a WAR/SAM, which (last I read) was not the tank option (WAR/MNK was). The WHM will be healing the WAR a lot and needs to be free to do so.