[dev1049] New weapon skills

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This is my biggest concern.

Someone obviously put a lot of time and heart into these skills. It shows. They're gorgeous.

Why spoil all of that hard work by making the WS weak?

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Balance, there is a reason they look awesome.

They can't make the new WS too strong, same as some of the new "top tier" gear. So what do they do, they make them glowy/pretty or they make the flashy so people want them. It works too.

I can't believe people are actually suprised, the last interview blatantly pointed out what their goals are now (balance) and you are shocked when stuff comes out that is just that?

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Originally Posted by Runespider

Balance, there is a reason they look awesome.

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If the intention is to make them suck, but require us to merit them for merit dumps, I'd think they'd allow us to merit more then three to full amounts. The majority of players would fully merit them in time, even if they were a bit on the weaker side if they filled a fair amount of utility and looked cool. But with the 15 merit point allocation limit, people have to choose, which results in wanting to have the best damage dealing WS regardless of all other factors.

It is a stupid limit, regardless of their intentions, but even less prudent in the face of making many of them weaker. If having them all is really a balance issue, just increase the amount of merits required for successive amounts which essentially means having more then three takes a significant amount of effort... much like many super weapons!

LV 60 WS > LV 90 WS.

100 Merits for an Non-Elemental Sword WS that does terrible damage? KILL ALL THE SLIMES.
100 Merits for a Scythe WS that recovers MP that isn't used? DARK KNIGHT SPIRIT TAKER.
100 Merits for [insert-WS-here] that will never be used over [insert-WS-from-2006-here]. POINTLESS DEVELOPMENT.



100 Merits for another overpowered Samurai WS that is the only great addition thus far?

100 Merits for WS's that took amazing time to make that will never get used?

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c5...isthisshit.jpg

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

Being lazy does not provide grounds to exempt Empyrean weaponskills from your listings. They are the superior weaponskills in most or every situation, there's no getting around that. Many to most players do in fact have at least one Empyrean weapon, the lazy minority is not a model to work an entire argument around.

Empyrean weaponskills are the standard.

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What you YOU smoking? Emp. weaponskills are "NOT" the standard... get off your box-cart, your highness...

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LV 60 WS > LV 90 WS.

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Why are people shocked, level 60 ws have beaten everything always (unless you count Aby content which they said was a mistake), they even beat relic ws for years.

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Originally Posted by IronPandemonium

Guess what job I play in 2011, going on '12 currently with a weapon that I obtained in a mere two months compared to the two and a half years I took to complete my relic back before Abyssea.

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You apparently just don't know how to play your job. Also, it seems logic isn't really your thing. Since you linked your account, I assume you think a relic makes you good (which is wrong).

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Originally Posted by IronPandemonium

You're one of those paladins without Ochain or even Almace that full times 5/5 Creed +2 because it's good, am I right.

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Wrong. Also, irrelevant to the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

irrelevant to the discussion.

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I'd save face like that too if I got called out like how it actually was; regardless, feel free to correct me on how to play my job any better than right now with perfected gear, because I'm clearly doing something wrong when none of my great katana weapon skills can average above 1,500 damage on anything relevant in the game (even with full buffs), whereas Ukko's does that average without even a single buff (and can spike upward of 4k).

But hey, obviously Shoha needs to go, since people like you are clearly afraid of a [currently] second-rate job being just a tad bit better than before (and still not outperforming warrior by any means).

Man I have to agree with everyone else here.. Nerfing Realmrazor has to be one of the worse moves right now. Is it a strong weaponskill? Yes. Can other DDs potentially outdamage whm with it? Oh hell yes. As a whm. I. Really. Don't. Care.


Very few other jobs will be able to produce the Mind necessary to beat a whm on sheer weaponskill damage alone. Only paladin maybe has enough access to good clubs to compete with whms with clubs. Double attack gear won't matter becuase if your dual wielding your already at swing cap. So what do we have to worry about as whms? Plds? Well they have higher skill in club so they are acceptable at out damaging a white mage.

So what are they worried about? It actually competing with other weapon classes? It being better then the "Ultimate" skills on club? Cause 1 doesn't do damage at all, the other your lucky if it clears 300 damage outside of abyss and rangrith? Heh, don't make me laugh. So what are they trying to balance it against? Are they just simply under the ideology that "Mage class weapons" shouldn't have the potential to be able to compete with other weapon classes?

I really hope they re-consider.

Tak You dont remember which is the main job of your buddy in Siren? Oh yeah Sam and its me fuck you ^_^. No more love for you in the rest of month <3.

I know a lot of people is suffering atm because the weapons skills for their jobs sux.

I will explain more in deep What can do our little new ToY Tachi destroyShoha

The new Weapon Skill for Samurai as Career sam i only can say this. "SE love us" A 4 hit Kikugasu build can parse equal a 5 hit Masamune fudo... Spam Tachi Shoha every 12 - 15 secs will be too "Overpowered".

For expain more deep this. A 4 hit Kikogasu with good sam merits. Can have a WS frecuently almost Similar a Soboro.... But this time the samurai dont will spam ws 300 damage. This time the Samurai will Spam WS of 3000 and 3700 damage -_-. Not enough for start see how overpowered this shit is? ^_^? "Yes my 6 hit ukovansara buddy you can fear too"

kikogasu 4 hit build will be the new modern minimiun efforts = x2 damage improvement.

So you are a Sam Career just shut up and support to the other players for receive a buff in their new Weapon skills.

Tak knows his Shit in FFXI. i Agree with him, Sam get too much love by the devs

Well, I never thought there was a second Kuroganashi, until now.

Someone hold me.

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Originally Posted by IronPandemonium

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Wrong. Also, irrelevant to the discussion.

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I'd save face like that too if I got called out like how it actually was;

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Bolded the part you obviously missed. I'm not trying to save face, because there's nothing to save. I don't have an Almace. I don't have an Ochain. I'm not full timing 5/5 AF3+2. How is that in any way relevant? You're just trying to deflect.

Secondly, I never said Shoha should go. I just said SAM is a good DD. If you don't agree, you're either not a good SAM or you didn't use it in the last few months and just like to troll people. I don't care either way, I'm used to SAM being SE's favorite DD job, it's been like that pretty much since it was released. I'm also used to, mainly because of that fact, a shitload of bandwagon SAM who don't know how to play, making the average SAM pretty bad in comparison. You may not be a bandwagon SAM, you do seem pretty dedicated to it, but that doesn't make you any good. I've seen plenty of people who thought they were kings with their relics and I've destroyed them with my non-relic WAR at 75, just to shut them up. If you suck, you suck. Sucks for you.

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Originally Posted by Theytak

The reason Sam wins is because sam is just damn easier to gear for, and has a lot more access to Store TP than any other DD. Sam requires much more lenient levels of Gear Quality and Player Intelligence to play well, and that's the bulk of its problem.

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I agree with most of your post, but WAR might be the easiest melee job to gear in the game. A good SAM will have gear coming from every corner of the game.

Basic War, but if you really wanted to pimp it out (assuming you just picked up both) War also has gear coming from several places as well, mainly Sky/Einherjar/Kings/Abyssea/VW I know offhand (N hands is byakko only, can skip Kings and try for legs from Einherjar though; other two is obvious, Ares might make a comeback with Upheavel + Salvage upgrades).

I probably overlooked something for Sam however.

So just for clairification, the new sword WS will be good for rocs, elementals,flans,ghosts,mimics,skeletons and slimes;on anything else vorpal(or CDC) will be better (maybe sanguine for that matter)?

Does it go through any natural -PDT% stuff or just deals with damage types?

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Originally Posted by doctorugh

So just for clairification, the new sword WS will be good for rocs, elementals,flans,ghosts,mimics,skeletons and slimes;on anything else vorpal(or CDC) will be better (maybe sanguine for that matter)?

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Seems to be the case. SE said they're not going to remove the attack penalty.

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Originally Posted by xiozen

What you YOU smoking? Emp. weaponskills are "NOT" the standard... get off your box-cart, your highness...

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Look, if you and your peers can't take a week or less to create an easy to make weapon that isn't my problem. Saying that 60% or more of people have an empyrean weapon would not be far from the truth. Your linkshell might not, and that's likely because your linkshell is lazy. The biggest gimplets could complete an empyrean in a respectable timeframe. Your inability to do so still does not exempt Empyrean weaponskills from being compared to the merit weaponskills.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Big ass lie. Huge majority of people does not have an Empyrean.

Secondly, Empyreans isn't what this is about, they were talking about Hexa Strike, so he used comparable WS from other jobs to demonstrate his point. It's not at all related to how good or bad they are in comparison.

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Again, please refer to my statement above. The majority of people do in fact have at least one empyrean weapon, and if not an empyrean then a gimpyrean. If it isn't related to how good or bad they are in comparison, perhaps he shouldn't have said how good and bad they are in comparison or perhaps only compared the club weaponskill since that's the only one that has been directly compared to an older weaponskill by a community rep. It's also worth noting that he wasn't comparing the club weaponskill to hexa strike btw, he was saying that SAM has a bunch of great weaponskills compared to other jobs.

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Originally Posted by doctorugh

So just for clairification, the new sword WS will be good for rocs, elementals,flans,ghosts,mimics,skeletons and slimes;on anything else vorpal(or CDC) will be better (maybe sanguine for that matter)?

Does it go through any natural -PDT% stuff or just deals with damage types?

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It functions exactly like Twilight Scythe and thus bypasses all forms of physical resistance and most forms of physical immunity. The problem is, it still won't be close to worthwhile even on those types of monsters. Either they'll be so low of a level that Sanguine Blade would be as effective, (even mid to highish level monsters this would be the case, at least you get some HP back too), or will be so high that the attack penalty on Requiescat would cripple it completely.

It comes down to whether you want to spend 5 of your merit WS slots and 1,000,000 limit points on a WS to farm crystals with or use in few and far between specialized circumstances where it isn't that far ahead of the competition.

I wasn't aware that 300,000 empyreans have been made now. It's more like maybe 10,000 people own them across all servers and have 2 or more each. I know it's easy to look at figures and go, oh, there's 50,000 empyreans out there. 50,000 people must own them. No. You underestimate a person's will to farm shit when they want said shit, and you overestimate other person's ability to jump in a group to farm or 2 box another character. I have 2 right now. I WILL have 4 soon, possibly as many as 6 when it's all said and done with. And I'm one person. Who doesn't go through linkshells to get them. And you, whoever you may happen to be, think empyrean weapons are standard? More common than relics by like a factor of 5 does not equate to "standard"

Magian weapons are still the standard, with ex/ra from NM behind it, and maybe MAYBE Empyreans have AH stuff beat out by now. Good grief I get such kicks watching people try to make this point time and again about Empyreans being standard. A couple people spew that non sense off here and there in their shells and on internet forums and everyone starts to believe it. Reminds me of theory crafting or worse, theory TH. Theory Empyreans, enjoy it while you can. You're just a fad, playa.

If you're too lazy to make at least 1 easy weapon, well, what are you doing?

Or it could be that you're just ignorant, "playa". Empyrean weapons are standard. They are thus one of the standards on which to judge other weapons and weaponskills; a casual jog through Port Jeuno or Ru'lude Gardens will turn up more empyreans per capita than your ridiculous estimations.

If they can't find a single other person to make their weapon with, then they have bigger problems than weaponskills to contend with.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

long-winding paragraph

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I'm not using my relic as a justification for being any better than what I or any other relic would be, I'm using it as a comparison for empyreans weapons, which anyone more or less - even if they're a casual mccasual - can complete an empyrean steadily in about the time frame I suggested as long as they play smart and use their time wisely.

So really, why are you (and a few others) implying an empyrean is anything other than the standard when people are completing them in the time required back before Abyssea to raise a job to seventy-five (without grinding at it every single day), or in another two instances, get the gil for a Hagun or even a Perdu Voulge with imperial standing points.

Here we are then with weapon skills that clearly blow their <300 combat skill weapon skills out of the water which are clearly the standard when at least 50% of the populous has at least one.

For whatever reason, you're seemingly ignoring their superiority all in favor of trying to make a job (of many) that has needed a step forward recently - to only take a step backward - just because you're walking blind in this era of the game that has non-empyrean melee as something you'd never even consider taking to VWNM, or even any event in general really, simply because the purchasable (or otherwise, non-empyrean/relic/mythic trial) weapon counterparts clearly do not compare to how they used to back at seventy-five and relics being a bare-minimum upgrade from what the other normally considered standard weapon for each job would be at the time.

Back to the point of the thread itself, with that said, honestly, half of these weapon skills don't even need to be the best, they just need to be at least good enough to where non-empyrean melee can actually make use of them, because as it is currently, the ones that are frowned upon currently that people are clearly not happy with don't even beat the weapon skills we've used years upon years ago that not only deal 75-esqe damage still (low tier), but are the clear reason as to why everyone's funneled themselves into jobs like warrior and monk approximately over the last year and a half (but for good reason of course).

Gear standards have certainly been revolutionized over the last little while, so why not weapon skills as well?

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

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Originally Posted by xiozen

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Originally Posted by Arcon

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

Being lazy does not provide grounds to exempt Empyrean weaponskills from your listings. They are the superior weaponskills in most or every situation, there's no getting around that. Many to most players do in fact have at least one Empyrean weapon, the lazy minority is not a model to work an entire argument around.

Empyrean weaponskills are the standard.

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Big ass lie. Huge majority of people does not have an Empyrean.

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What you YOU smoking? Emp. weaponskills are "NOT" the standard... get off your box-cart, your highness...

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Look, if you and your peers can't take a week or less to create an easy to make weapon that isn't my problem. Saying that 60% or more of people have an empyrean weapon would not be far from the truth. Your linkshell might not, and that's likely because your linkshell is lazy. The biggest gimplets could complete an empyrean in a respectable timeframe. Your inability to do so still does not exempt Empyrean weaponskills from being compared to the merit weaponskills. The majority of people do in fact have at least one empyrean weapon, and if not an empyrean then a gimpyrean. If it isn't related to how good or bad they are in comparison, perhaps he shouldn't have said how good and bad they are in comparison or perhaps only compared the club weaponskill since that's the only one that has been directly compared to an older weaponskill by a community rep. It's also worth noting that he wasn't comparing the club weaponskill to hexa strike btw, he was saying that SAM has a bunch of great weaponskills compared to other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Vold

I wasn't aware that 300,000 empyreans have been made now. It's more like maybe 10,000 people own them across all servers and have 2 or more each. I know it's easy to look at figures and go, oh, there's 50,000 empyreans out there. 50,000 people must own them. No. You underestimate a person's will to farm shit when they want said shit, and you overestimate other person's ability to jump in a group to farm or 2 box another character. I have 2 right now. I WILL have 4 soon, possibly as many as 6 when it's all said and done with. And I'm one person. Who doesn't go through linkshells to get them. And you, whoever you may happen to be, think empyrean weapons are standard? More common than relics by like a factor of 5 does not equate to "standard"

Magian weapons are still the standard, with ex/ra from NM behind it, and maybe MAYBE Empyreans have AH stuff beat out by now. Good grief I get such kicks watching people try to make this point time and again about Empyreans being standard. A couple people spew that non sense off here and there in their shells and on internet forums and everyone starts to believe it. Reminds me of theory crafting or worse, theory TH. Theory Empyreans, enjoy it while you can. You're just a fad, playa.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

If you're too lazy to make at least 1 easy weapon, well, what are you doing?

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

Or it could be that you're just ignorant, "playa". Empyrean weapons are standard. They are thus one of the standards on which to judge other weapons and weaponskills; a casual jog through Port Jeuno or Ru'lude Gardens will turn up more empyreans per capita than your ridiculous estimations.

If they can't find a single other person to make their weapon with, then they have bigger problems than weaponskills to contend with.

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I'm not sure why the empy talk started up, but I support Proth on this one.

They are the standard, before abyssea did you see SE use relics in all their screenshots? No, they used standard gear and mostly AF1/AF2 at the time.

When you see screenshots since abyssea what do you see? Full empy armor with an empy weapon. Go look if you must, I've read the news for years and I know this to be a fact.

With that point alone I think they are standard. SE is showing them off because they are easy to get.

I myself have one, club, and did I need a linkshell to make it? No I did not.

I did mine with just 1 other person, duo'ing a weapon is very common.

I can't defend people who say that it isn't standard, because that just isn't true. Anything that easy has to be the standard, if you don't have one I question how much you've actually tried.

If you don't have one, then I would like to hear your reason. It's been over a year since abyssea started, what have you been doing this whole time? Really, this is a serious question. If you weren't making a weapon what the hell did you do for 12 months? Quit?

Most people who have an empy didn't use their LS to make one, didn't make ls members slaves. It takes some hard work but nothing huge. They are very easy to make and in my opinion not that much harder than any other elemental trial.

If you look at it that way then are magian staffs not the standard for mages? I will laugh if you don't think so. Any self-respecting mage will have at least 1 fully upgraded magian staff.

If you don't even have a fully upgraded trial in anything then please leave this discussion now.

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Originally Posted by IronPandemonium

Back to the point of the thread itself, with that said, honestly, half of these weapon skills don't even need to be the best, they just need to be at least good enough to where non-empyrean melee can actually make use of them, because as it is currently, the ones that are frowned upon currently that people are clearly not happy with don't even beat the weapon skills we've used years upon years ago that not only deal 75-esqe damage still (low tier), but are the clear reason as to why everyone's funneled themselves into jobs like warrior and monk approximately over the last year and a half (but for good reason of course).

Gear standards have certainly been revolutionized over the last little while, so why not weapon skills as well?

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This. Should be rather obvious really.

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Originally Posted by IronPandemonium

Gear standards have certainly been revolutionized over the last little while, so why not weapon skills as well?

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This succinctly sums up the thoughts and feelings of almost everyone in this topic very well.

These weaponskills have totally new animations, really great ones. We can only upgrade 3 of them to full. Heaven help any poor soul hoping to get a decent result with one of them not upgraded to full, because after a long and hard look, it turns out literally all they have going for them are the 100% stat modifiers.

Not a single person testing a single weaponskill has stumbled onto a bonus or unexpected boon yet. They do what they say on the tin or worse. It's a dark and dead-armadillo-sprinkled road of attack penalties and <1 fTP values on additional hits. Apparently there's an attack bonus on Shijin Spiral, but at this point, I wonder if that just translates to the absence of an attack penalty.

So, again, here are these gorgeous new weaponskills of which we can only fully utilize three. It turns out they're actually mediocre, though. Why?

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Originally Posted by Kalilla

I can't defend people who say that it isn't standard, because that just isn't true. Anything that easy has to be the standard [..]

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I believe this is what Prothscar and IronPandemonium think as well. It's simply a misinformed definition of what the word "standard" means. At least you didn't insist on the "fact" (as Prothscar so mistakenly called it) that most people have it.

It's actually very common in the endgame scene for people to lose touch with reality. It was the same at 75. People would go on about what the "standard" was ("if you don't have a Haste +6% belt gtfo of my thread") and try to impose their ridiculously absurd perception of normality on the masses. I will admit to this: many people actively participating in current endgame have an Empyrean weapon. If it's most I can't say, I believe so, but I don't have exact numbers, so I won't make ridiculous claims like other people so callously do. But people seem to forget that there's a massive number of people who don't even have one full +2 set (there's even people who don't have a single +2 item). Some of them have even started making some weapons, but the game doesn't come as easy to everyone. There's still people wiping to Durinn. There's still people who don't have the Atma of the Razed Ruins. And all of these cases are very likely to be a subset of the people who don't have an Empyrean weapon. This game isn't all as hardcore as you are.

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Originally Posted by Kalilla

[..] if you don't have one I question how much you've actually tried.

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That's also the thing. Many people haven't even tried yet. At all.

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Originally Posted by Kalilla

Most people who have an empy didn't use their LS to make one, didn't make ls members slaves. It takes some hard work but nothing huge. They are very easy to make and in my opinion not that much harder than any other elemental trial.

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Then your opinion doesn't seem to be very informed. I have both Empyreans and elemental trial weapons and they're worlds apart. Most Empyreans you actually cannot solo, as in, impossible. Try Glavoid solo and see how far you get. I suppose you could pull it to some godforsaken corner of Tahrongi Canyon and zombie it, hoping no one comes by and claims it off you. But that's all you can do. And that's also the bottleneck many people face, not wanting (or getting) to involve others in helping them.

I can already see people responding with "make friends" or "get a WHM mule" or some poor soul will probably even think "suck less". And if you think those are valid suggestions, then I have to seriously doubt your mental capacity and you should leave this discussion now.

Edit:
Forgot to say what I came here to say. Happens when stuff gets derailed. I fully agree with the sentiment that standards have increased. I fully agree that it was a completely inane reason SE offered us for nerfing Realmrazer. They need to stop being afraid of the past and move on. Best example are relics. If they could introduce Empyrean weapons without issues, that completely trump the weapons that have been dominating the game for the better part of a decade, then they shouldn't have a problem with one single weapon skill becoming somewhat outdated.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Try Glavoid solo and see how far you get.

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http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3859/1305445143249.jpg

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So, again, here are these gorgeous new weaponskills of which we can only fully utilize three. It turns out they're actually mediocre, though. Why?

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There's still time put these last three in the trash heap, you're not giving SE enough credit.

I would have rather them use this forum to vote on the potential nerfs for each WS, since SE planned on nerfing them all anyways. It would at least seem like they were interacting with the community that plays the game.

What sad is basically what the game has turned into anyone who is willing to pay for another account and level whm or has an account of someone who quit, pretty much can have the best WSs in the game since they can easily duo box any empyrean weapon.

SE decides that 100 merit new weapon skills should be worse then pre 75 WS. Yea that doesn't make any sense. If you going to spend 100 merits on something it should be at least better then everything pre 75.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I believe this is what Prothscar and IronPandemonium think as well. It's simply a misinformed definition of what the word "standard" means. At least you didn't insist on the "fact" (as Prothscar so mistakenly called it) that most people have it.

It's actually very common in the endgame scene for people to lose touch with reality. It was the same at 75. People would go on about what the "standard" was ("if you don't have a Haste +6% belt gtfo of my thread") and try to impose their ridiculously absurd perception of normality on the masses. I will admit to this: many people actively participating in current endgame have an Empyrean weapon. If it's most I can't say, I believe so, but I don't have exact numbers, so I won't make ridiculous claims like other people so callously do. But people seem to forget that there's a massive number of people who don't even have one full +2 set (there's even people who don't have a single +2 item). Some of them have even started making some weapons, but the game doesn't come as easy to everyone. There's still people wiping to Durinn. There's still people who don't have the Atma of the Razed Ruins. And all of these cases are very likely to be a subset of the people who don't have an Empyrean weapon. This game isn't all as hardcore as you are.



That's also the thing. Many people haven't even tried yet. At all.



Then your opinion doesn't seem to be very informed. I have both Empyreans and elemental trial weapons and they're worlds apart. Most Empyreans you actually cannot solo, as in, impossible. Try Glavoid solo and see how far you get. I suppose you could pull it to some godforsaken corner of Tahrongi Canyon and zombie it, hoping no one comes by and claims it off you. But that's all you can do. And that's also the bottleneck many people face, not wanting (or getting) to involve others in helping them.

I can already see people responding with "make friends" or "get a WHM mule" or some poor soul will probably even think "suck less". And if you think those are valid suggestions, then I have to seriously doubt your mental capacity and you should leave this discussion now.

Edit:
Forgot to say what I came here to say. Happens when stuff gets derailed. I fully agree with the sentiment that standards have increased. I fully agree that it was a completely inane reason SE offered us for nerfing Realmrazer. They need to stop being afraid of the past and move on. Best example are relics. If they could introduce Empyrean weapons without issues, that completely trump the weapons that have been dominating the game for the better part of a decade, then they shouldn't have a problem with one single weapon skill becoming somewhat outdated.

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If they haven't tried or put forth the effort its their own damn fault. FFXI isn't rocket science. Their inability to grasp simple game mechanics is their own issue that they could easily deal with without being "hardcore". You don't have to be "hardcore" to finish an empyrean weapon. At all. You're over inflating the difficulty of acquiring a simple weapon, and I'll pretend I didn't see you mention Empyrean armor.

Again, you're coming up with an excuse for nothing except being lazy. There is no other way to turn it. This is easy content when it comes to MMOs, or video games in general. It's a grind, nothing more nothing less, a grind that takes minimal amounts of effort to complete and moderate amount of time if done casually.

You need no more than two people for every empyrean weapon, barring possibly Bhukis because he can be annoying at points. It may be difficult for you and a select few others, and you may wipe to Durinn as do a select few others, but that is the minority. Not everyone is pants-on-head retarded or lazy.

@Devs: Buff Requiescat please. Your reasoning is absolutely ridiculous and it is nearly useless in its current form. Same can be said for all but about two of these weaponskills.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

So, again, here are these gorgeous new weaponskills of which we can only fully utilize three. It turns out they're actually mediocre, though. Why?

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I feel that the Dark Knight WS just being a utility rather then a Damage WS wouldn't be as bad if only people could merit all the WS. I feel that the Sword WS being a situational rather then a damage WS wouldn't be as bad if only people could merit all the WS. I could go on, but the main point is this - SE don't limit the amount of weapon skills people can fully merit.

As a bit of a side note, I understand the idea behind having White Mage be the club master, but as always, if that's what they want, they could just give White Mage a better WS then Realmrazer if they unlock Realmrazer, and keep Realmrazer at its current level. Less disappointment for everyone, and the new WS can just use the same animation. Or Hexa Strike could get a quest to buff it or just a buff that only high level White Mages can do.

Would also put forth the motion that if they plan on leaving these weaponskills as useless messes, at least let us merit every single one fully and not just limit us to three weaponskills max.

Discussion kind of lost focus in the emp weapon stuff. I think most of us agree that these weaponskills should be better than the lvl 60 weapon skills, and it is very sad that most are not. Also, regardless of where SAM currently falls on the food chain of DDs, it has been consistently a favorite of the developers, and many people are kind of mad once again they are one of the only jobs that got a good weaponskill.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

Would also put forth the motion that if they plan on leaving these weaponskills as useless messes, at least let us merit every single one fully and not just limit us to three weaponskills max.

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I agree, something to the likeness of putting a certain amount of bonus into a specific weapon skill.

Here are my ideas on the matter

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

Would also put forth the motion that if they plan on leaving these weaponskills as useless messes, at least let us merit every single one fully and not just limit us to three weaponskills max.

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If these are all useless messes at 5/5 merits, I'd rather just keep it as is and put one merit into each WS. Why should we waste time getting ~1400 merits rather than accumulate only the 170 needed to unlock all 14 WS and be done with it? If it's going to suck regardless, why put forth the effort? Or do we all enjoy Abyssea alliances to that extent?

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Originally Posted by Koren

If it's going to suck regardless, why put forth the effort?

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Not all of them are going to suck, which will encourage a 5/5 in a few. I don't think that the high experience points requirements really bother me, since it is just a matter of time, even if it takes a few months. What bothers me is a limit on them so you can only have so many at a time.

Well, I'd rather have them all be useful, but maybe some won't be damage, but utility WS. And lets face it, when someone has a handful of jobs, they're going to go for damage, not utility if they are forced to choose, so why should we be forced to choose?

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Originally Posted by Arcon

It's actually very common in the endgame scene...

...I will admit to this: many people actively participating in current endgame have an Empyrean weapon. If it's most I can't say, I believe so, but I don't have exact numbers, so I won't make ridiculous claims like other people so callously do. But people seem to forget that there's a massive number of people who don't even have one full +2 set (there's even people who don't have a single +2 item). Some of them have even started making some weapons, but the game doesn't come as easy to everyone. There's still people wiping to Durinn. There's still people who don't have the Atma of the Razed Ruins. And all of these cases are very likely to be a subset of the people who don't have an Empyrean weapon. This game isn't all as hardcore as you are.

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I'm not hardcore, I don't play more than 5-6 hours a week truthfully unless I'm fishing which I don't include for obvious reasons. It wasn't that way before abyssea but then again standing in 1 area for 3 hours and then moving to another area for 3 hours isn't really that different when you add up the time you actually play now is it.

During the past year I abandoned said end-game for a more casual play style where I'm not ruled by spawn timers and event times. I actually enjoyed being able to play when I actually wanted to play instead of being expected to be at some event some where, whatever. There have been times when I teamed back up with my old end-game ls for big events that they invited me to come to, but was nothing more than that.

In the past 12 months, where I have been labeled as hardcore by you, I was never in a party (including myself) more than 4 people (unless I'm leveling... or w/e), but more often than not I was only with my bf helping him make weapons.

Surprisingly, I do understand that not everyone has time to make an empyrean weapon. Really once you get past the NM hunting you're no longer bound by timers and can continue doing the trial in your spare time. Some people might have less time than I have to play, and that's fine. Should they be considered the standard player?

That depends on the average playtime of players really. I think the average is around 8-10 hours a week, and some of the more hardcore players can put that into a single day (why...).

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Then your opinion doesn't seem to be very informed. I have both Empyreans and elemental trial weapons and they're worlds apart. Most Empyreans you actually cannot solo, as in, impossible. Try Glavoid solo and see how far you get. I suppose you could pull it to some godforsaken corner of Tahrongi Canyon and zombie it, hoping no one comes by and claims it off you. But that's all you can do. And that's also the bottleneck many people face, not wanting (or getting) to involve others in helping them.

I can already see people responding with "make friends" or "get a WHM mule" or some poor soul will probably even think "suck less". And if you think those are valid suggestions, then I have to seriously doubt your mental capacity and you should leave this discussion now.

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I seriously think that the difference isn't as huge as you're making it out to be. Sure, with Empyrean you need a healer, but when it comes to time investment well...

Many people (hardcore unfortunately) can make an Empyrean weapon in a few days. Now an elemental trial is bound by rules to where you can only do it on certain times of the day. More often than not it takes longer to make an elemental weapon than it is possible to make an Empyrean weapon.

I admit my comparison between the two was probably too much and was bound to be controversial, but I still stand by my point. I think it is completely reasonable that if you can make a fully upgraded elemental trial then you can make an Empyrean weapon.

Also: I've helped make 5 Empyrean's other than my own, made club and considering dagger if I get bored enough. And have made 4 fully upgraded elemental trials. Also only play WHM and DNC.

Anyways I'm done talking about Empyreans and trials. They are such a boring topic to talk about...

Anyone know if this update went live on the test server yet so I can see how much they hate white mage melees everywhere? Or we just gonna have to wait and be surprised when it goes live on the main servers?

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Discussion kind of lost focus in the emp weapon stuff. I think most of us agree that these weaponskills should be better than the lvl 60 weapon skills, and it is very sad that most are not. Also, regardless of where SAM currently falls on the food chain of DDs, it has been consistently a favorite of the developers, and many people are kind of mad once again they are one of the only jobs that got a good weaponskill.

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This is my sentiments exactly. These WS are not only level 96, but require a large amount of merit points to upgrade them to their fullest potential. In my opinion, they are supposed to represent mastery over a weapon. To make them equal or in some cases lower in power to WS learned over 30 levels ago is a joke and a slap in the face. I'm honestly getting of the Devs using "Balance!" as an excuse for implementing poor gameplay mechanics that continuously receive negative feedback from the playerbase.

This is not even close to balance. Like many others, I'm starting to lose faith that SE will ever listen. The playerbase wants these new WS to be regularly usable and moderately strong for the jobs that can use them. I seriously doubt anyone is looking forward to spending 100 merits on situational toys that may be used rarely for their favorite jobs. I know I'm not.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Since Requiescat has no element, it’s an effective weapon skill against monsters that are immune to physical attacks. Considering that players can use attack boosts and double attack effects to enhance damage (edited at 12:28pm PST), we decided that an adjustment was unnecessary.

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Yeah, because you can build TP on mobs that are immune to physical damage...

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Originally Posted by Amador

Seriously? Hexa Strike is your idea of balancing? Why? This is why your post has no likes Bayohne!

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He is just the messenger, don't hate him for that. But do hate and voice your opinion (and wallet) against the Tanakateam so that they understand the URGENCY to look into the future and forget the "craptastic spectacular" that is the past. The current team clearly have no ideas, no visions, or heck, not even a clue on how to create a product that will satisfy the majority of the players. Their idea of a game is a hamster wheel where you run and run and run in it for years.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

After testing, we concluded that there is a need to lower the damage dealt by the club weapon skill Realmrazer. We'll be making adjustments so that Realmrazer is the strongest club weapon skill for jobs that cannot learn Hexa Strike.

We also concluded that there is no need to increase the damage dealt by the H2H weapon skill Shijin Spiral and the sword weapon skill Requiescat. (The adjustments for the katana and great sword weapon skills were made to fix the difficulty of dealing damage against stronger opponents.)

Shijin Spiral has an attack boost effect, so it can effectively deal damage to stronger opponents. Thus, we decided that there was no need for adjustment. Also, please keep in mind that its modifiers are DEX and not STR.

Since Requiescat has no element, it’s an effective weapon skill against monsters that are immune to physical attacks. Considering that players can use attack boosts and double attack effects to enhance damage (edited at 12:28pm PST), we decided that an adjustment was unnecessary.

We’ll make the above adjustments in the next version update and will look into implementing further adjustments following the version update as necessary.

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Please forgive me in advance if this stuff is tough to read (English folks).

I know interpreting/translating what we say so the Devs can understand it is the job of the Community Reps, but in fear that the numerous walls of text posted here could take entirely too long for them to translate in time for the Devs to actually fix things in a satisfactory way, I'm almost forced to try my own hand at posting my own "Ready to Deliver" Feedback (Well I hope it is anyway). Here goes (Google Translate, don't fail me now >< ):

(English) Final Fantasy Developers, Please listen to the fans!
--[translation]--
(Japanese) ファイナルファンタジーの開発者は、ファンに聴いてください！
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(English) Please understand that the new weapon skills look great! I was excited to see them the very first time, but I'm very disappointed in their strength.
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(Japanese) 新しい武器のスキルがきれいに見えることを理解しなさい！私は非常に最初にそれらを見て興奮していたが、私は非常に彼らの強さにがっかりしています。
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(English)
Please hear our requests to change these Skills into very powerful Weapon Skills instead of being Weak Weapon Skills. If they are very powerful, we will put lots of time into unlocking these Weapon Skills.
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(Japanese) 代わりに、弱い武器のスキルというのは非常に強力な武器スキルにこれらのスキルを変更するために私たちの要求を聞いてください。彼らは非常に強力である場合、我々はこれらの武器のスキルをアンロックに多くの時間を配置します。
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(English) If you have plans to increase the strength of these Weapon Skills after this update, please let us know so we can understand your direction.
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(Japanese) このアップデート後にこれらの武器のスキルの強さを増加させる計画を持っている場合、我々はあなたの方向を理解できるように私たちに知らせてください。
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(English) I was happy to test the skills of these weapons on the test server, if you decide to make changes to them, I would be very happy to test them again.
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(Japanese) 私は、テストサーバー上でこれらの武器のスキルをテストするために幸せだった、それらに変更を加えることを決定した場合、私はそれらを再度テストすることが非常に幸せになる。
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(English) Thank you very much for listening to our feedback!
--[translation]--
(Japanese) 私たちのフィードバックを聞くことを本当にありがとう！

I pray that the translation job done by Google translate wasn't too much of a hack job (^.^;) I really, REALLY love the animation work and graphic effects of these new Weaponskills, and as some have already posted, I would hate to see them go to waste. /Applause to the animation staff and special effects teams for creating some truly beautiful content! Lets hope the Planners of the actual content can hear our requests to match the masterful work and make these WS's really shine game-wise.