To: Mr Akihiko Matsui

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Are you serious? You're implying that a Lv40~65 Ninja can even start thinking about a haste build? Hahaha...

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http://www.ffxiah.com/item/13054/fuma-kyahan
http://www.ffxiah.com/item/15457/swift-belt
http://www.ffxiah.com/item/11495/zeal-cap

Yes.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

> Complaining about a burned Nin and nearly failing a UO run (lol) and that it's level leeching at fault, when gimps/unskilled players existed before abyssea or burns themselves were around, they just levelled slower

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I don't understand why this concept is so frickin' hard for these nostalgia freaks to understand. I'll always remember how disappointing it was to find a person to tank for my parties, only to have the group disband half an hour into the party because they were terrible at their job.


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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Are you serious? You're implying that a Lv40~65 Ninja can even start thinking about a haste build? Hahaha...

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Wow. This says it all. You're a hypocrite if you're blaming Abyssea for creating gimps when you were clearly an example of the bad tanks I just talked about.

Is there even a point to this thread anymore?

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Anyway, remind me again why we're talking about my Ninja and how it's related to this topic?

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Nothing that's been said in the last 40 pages has been on topic, mostly thanks to you.

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Originally Posted by Twille

Is there even a point to this thread anymore?

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To take turns styling on eyeballed, obviously.

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Originally Posted by Twille

Is there even a point to this thread anymore?

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For the few that were contributing constructively to it, (See Merton9999, Demon6324236 and Komori), absolutely there is a point. For the rest, they're throwing out red herrings one after the other in attempt to derail the conversation for their sheer amusement it seems.

Last I checked, these are a Discussion Forums, meaning we don't get by with things like "You were just a fail NIN. You only want your way, bawbag. Go play another game and leave us alone." and so on and so-forth. If you can't discuss things without resorting to things like insults so that ground may actually be covered for either side in a constructive manner, then please just leave it alone. If you had, the thread might have been on page 10 by now.

We ABSOLUTELY get to point out that you were a bad NIN, because the entire point here is that abyssea/book-burning is not producing less competent/educated players; bad players always existed, and what better way to make that point than to use your own testimonials to show that you were one of them.

I mean, I'll grant that at least you clearly gave a shit about doing well and you STILL failed at it, but nevertheless you still made it to 75. In the fantasy world of rewarded competence you seem to think old school parties promoted, you never would have gotten that far.

What it rewarded was conformity, which is not so bad now that we actually have the Right Answers to how to play the game, but was a big problem when the "right answers" involved paying 500k or camping 35 hours to get 3 DEX and AGI from Leaping Boots (or else I will be a bad NIN!!!! :( ) or struggling to recast Utsusemi: Ichi against mandragoras that hit you for like 25 damage anyway.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

I just happened to say shuriken, debuffs and the wheel. I used all 3 just to be sure. So you're saying you did just fine with provoke and TP spam? And why did you stop at 65?

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I leveled Thief at some point, then I didn't have a lot of time, so I took a break. Came back to FFXI and my NIN was only ~70 or something. I did like 5 levels in campaign pretty much.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

We ABSOLUTELY get to point out that you were a bad NIN, because the entire point here is that abyssea/book-burning is not producing less competent/educated players; bad players always existed, and what better way to make that point than to use your own testimonials to show that you were one of them.

I mean, I'll grant that at least you clearly gave a shit about doing well and you STILL failed at it, but nevertheless you still made it to 75. In the fantasy world of rewarded competence you seem to think old school parties promoted, you never would have gotten that far.

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And this goes to further prove that you don't read my posts, and therefore have no basis as in what's going on, quite frankly. Just like the rest. However, I'm sure you won't ask me to re-iterate or even for a link as to what I said, because you only care about carrying around that flamethrower.

Okay, so if axing book-burning and abyssea leveling is not about promoting a more competent playerbase, what's it about?

EDIT: As a gesture of good faith, I'll explain why I like the quicker type of leveling: FFXI endgame, maybe more than any other game, allows a variety of different paths to progression, mostly through the continued value of gil for the acquisition of the best weapons in the game. Since there are a ton of different activities that result in gil, I can pursue a given goal a dozen different ways depending on my mood. This variety goes a really long way towards keeping the game fresh.

XP, by comparison, is a straight grind, and in parties its a grind entirely dictated by received knowledge over one or two camps; because the logistics of party-making are pretty involved, getting anyone to break this cycle is more trouble than it's worth. 6-man XP has its charms, but at the end of the day if I wanted to be forced into one activity and one activity only for the majority of the time to improve my character, I would be playing World of Warcraft, which at least has the decency to force you into a much more interesting activity (Heroics).

Okay, I don't want to promote this derailment any further, where's the report thread button?

:c

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Okay, so if axing book-burning and abyssea leveling is not about promoting a more competent playerbase, what's it about?

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Nah, I'm not even gonna bother. It's been said enough already and by now you're just asking for more juice. If you wouldn't take an honest ear to it then, you certainly aren't going to now.

No, I just don't care enough to read fifty pages of thread to synthesize an argument from your posts and then get yelled at for flaming when I fail to present it in the most glowing terms.

So, if you're as interested in having an honest discussion about this, present your thesis and I promise I'll respond fairly (though I can't promise I won't call it dumb if it is, in fact, dumb); if not, I'm happy to keep busting your balls~

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Originally Posted by scaevola

No, I just don't care enough to read fifty pages of thread to synthesize an argument from your posts and then get yelled at for flaming when I fail to present it in the most glowing terms.

So, if you're as interested in having an honest discussion about this, present your thesis and I promise I'll respond fairly (though I can't promise I won't call it dumb if it is, in fact, dumb); if not, I'm happy to keep busting your balls~

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That goes without saying. It's cool though, I see you need the practice.

Now you're just attacking the guy when he gave you a chance.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

That goes without saying. It's cool though, I see you need the practice.

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For somebody who spent solid minutes of his day typing angry posts about how nobody was interested in having a serious debate with him about his ideas, you're sure quick to smack an olive branch!

I mean, maybe it got lost, but look at the last page; I even went so far as to articulate my own opinion of the current state of the game and why breakneck XP is grrrrrrrrreat! If that's not a statement of good faith, what do you want me to say?

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Originally Posted by Modoru

Okay, I don't want to promote this derailment any further, where's the report thread button?

:c

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It's the triangle in the lower left-hand corner of every post.

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Originally Posted by Modoru

Now you're just attacking the guy when he gave you a chance.

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Gave me a chance to do what? Drop another example or reason I have so he can not read it and draw his own conclusions? Shyeah.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Gave me a chance to do what? Drop another example or reason I have so he can not read it and draw his own conclusions? Shyeah.

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You realize that this thread is 50 pages long, right?

Do you ever stop and read what you type before you click the "post" button?

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Originally Posted by scaevola

No, I just don't care enough to read fifty pages of thread to synthesize an argument from your posts and then get yelled at for flaming when I fail to present it in the most glowing terms.

So, if you're as interested in having an honest discussion about this, present your thesis and I promise I'll respond fairly (though I can't promise I won't call it dumb if it is, in fact, dumb); if not, I'm happy to keep busting your balls~

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I second this. Eyeballed, put your money where your mouth is. Support your argument or be branded dishonest and a coward.

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Originally Posted by Eric

You realize that this thread is 50 pages long, right?

Do you ever stop and read what you type before you click the "post" button?

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Yeah but I usually just find something to say 5 seconds after I post. If you'll look back, it's the reason for the edits. Like I said to scaevola, if people would contribute something we can go forward with instead of staying stalemate with flame after flame then this thread would have died a long time ago. But get ready, because it's coming again.

Except you're not contributing anything either, and you know it! You said it yourself, you're not willing to go out quietly.

50 pages of people proving you wrong and discrediting your crazy claims and arguments and you still won't give up. It's clear that you're just dragging this out as long as you can, regardless of whether or not you even mean the things you say anymore.

EDIT: What is there even left to argue about anymore? Tell me, how can you still think it's a good idea to return exp back to the slow grind it used to be after everything everyone has said?

What would you like us to contribute? If you want an affirmative defense of the way things are now, my post #490 outlines my own reasons for preferring the current game (coupled with the unspoken assumption that leveling and playing new jobs based on personal needs is an inherent part of FFXI), and also we could say getting to level 99 faster makes everyone better at the game because it forces you to play in more demanding situations you can actually fail (as opposed to succeed less quickly) in order to progress further (this is why everybody makes fun of people in aurore and perle gear).

But before I defend these, I want to hear your assertions as to why we ought to go back.

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Originally Posted by Eric

Except you're not contributing anything either, and you know it! You said it yourself, you're not willing to go out quietly.

50 pages of people proving you wrong and discrediting your crazy claims and arguments and you still won't give up. It's clear that you're just dragging this out as long as you can, regardless of whether or not you even mean the things you say anymore.

EDIT: What is there even left to argue about anymore? Tell me, how can you still think it's a good idea to return exp back to the slow grind it used to be after everything everyone has said?

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In a nutshell, what they've said is to the effect of "We don't want it because it's mindless, boring and pointless." Those are opinions. I have mine, and because I think to the contrary, I think it's a good idea. My position is, as was stated, "If the grind process is as you say, and the consensus is that the trip from Lv1 to cap is a mere formality, an unnecessary cumbersome obstacle, then should it not simply be removed?" If your side cannot see the point, then what is the point of its existence?

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Originally Posted by scaevola

What would you like us to contribute? If you want an affirmative defense of the way things are now, my post #490 outlines my own reasons for preferring the current game (coupled with the unspoken assumption that leveling and playing new jobs based on personal needs is an inherent part of FFXI), and also we could say getting to level 99 faster makes everyone better at the game because it forces you to play in more demanding situations you can actually fail (as opposed to succeed less quickly) in order to progress further (this is why everybody makes fun of people in aurore and perle gear).

But before I defend these, I want to hear your assertions as to why we ought to go back.

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Because, like I said, I found a game I enjoyed in the trip up. You and others may not, and you might even dismiss it as utter BS, but being a paying customer I have every right to voice my opinion on the subject without being labeled as an idiot, essentially.

I've done my best to give you that much respect, though I think differently to you, and I expect as much in return.

So you're saying the thread has played out as follows:

you: hey guys here is my opinion

us: no your opinion is dumb and here is why

you: damn dude it's just my opinion stop trolling :(

Sounds about right! At the end of the day, it comes full circle: the way we want it, you are free to pursue the XP method you prefer. The way you want it, we are not.

As for the rhetorical question re: should the XP grind just be removed????? I am going to take the privilege of being the first to say PS2 Limitations


EDIT: We cannot have a discussion if literally your only response when directly asked for a thesis is "I like it and I don't need another reason."

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Originally Posted by scaevola

the way we want it, you are free to pursue the XP method you prefer. The way you want it, we are not.

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That's dumb and here's why. Everyone should be forced to aby burn after 30, because everything between 30 and 99 doesn't exist anymore.

You have the right to your opinion. You do not have the right to have your opinion go unchallenged.

What you are doing now is trolling and flame-baiting.
Knock it off.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

So you're saying the thread has played out as follows:

you: hey guys here is my opinion

us: no your opinion is dumb and here is why

you: damn dude it's just my opinion stop trolling :(

Sounds about right! At the end of the day, it comes full circle: the way we want it, you are free to pursue the XP method you prefer. The way you want it, we are not.

As for the rhetorical question re: should the XP grind just be removed????? I am going to take the privilege of being the first to say PS2 Limitations

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Sure you are. Remember SMN burns? Level sync at Qufim Island? What I fundamentally gather from your perspective is that you don't want to play the game as a whole, as it was designed. It's too much to ask for one reason or another; But, there are those of us who absolutely did want to play it as it was originally designed.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

That's dumb and here's why. Everyone should be forced to aby burn after 30, because everything between 30 and 99 doesn't exist anymore.

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haha, if only!

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

In a nutshell, what they've said is to the effect of "We don't want it because it's mindless, boring and pointless." Those are opinions. I have mine, and because I think to the contrary, I think it's a good idea. My position is, as was stated, "If the grind process is as you say, and the consensus is that the trip from Lv1 to cap is a mere formality, an unnecessary cumbersome obstacle, then should it not simply be removed?" If your side cannot see the point, then what is the point of its existence?

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Our way provides every player (this, of course, includes you) a multitude of options to get the experience points. This includes options to do it the old fashioned way. We even explained to you what those options are and how to best explore them.

Your way is to force everyone to play your way and would serve to limit people to a relative handful of jobs and would be detrimental to newer players.

We have explained all this to you and yet you still throw childish tantrums because you can't get your way. Please go grow the **** up.

But... abyssea designed it this way. This is abyssea's original design. Who are you to go against that as well?

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

What I fundamentally gather from your perspective is that you don't want to play the game as a whole, as it was designed.

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Who are you to declare what constitutes the game as a whole?

Leveling only ever existed as an "important part" of the game because, as far as I can tell, it was a really good way to avoid the necessity of actually putting in endgame content.

Once again, we can't actually do anything other than insult you if your argument is "this is my opinion and I don't need another reason." Opinions are based on some observed criteria; your "argument" is the statement of someone too stupid to actually articulate the reasons for their own beliefs, and as long as you revel in this incuriosity you'll be treated like the simpleton you aren't giving us any leeway to consider you other than.

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Originally Posted by Trisscar

Our way provides every player (this, of course, includes you) a multitude of options to get the experience points. This includes options to do it the old fashioned way. We even explained to you what those options are and how to best explore them.

Your way is to force everyone to play your way and would serve to limit people to a relative handful of jobs and would be detrimental to newer players.

We have explained all this to you and yet you still throw childish tantrums because you can't get your way. Please go grow the **** up.

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And I've explained to you on more than one occasion that inviting people to a classic grind party returns laughs and giggles. For some reason you fail to read and understand this fact, and maintain that this is a viable choice. You're wrong and I'm here to tell you you're wrong.

Just a note before I block you though, I did another one of those useless searches for people with their flags up willing to go grind, and you know what I found? Two people with their flags up to join another 30 people at Gusgen. I suppose you're going to suggest that I walk into the middle of them and ask who wants to leave and go party with me?

Bye now.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Sure you are. Remember SMN burns? Level sync at Qufim Island? What I fundamentally gather from your perspective is that you don't want to play the game as a whole, as it was designed. It's too much to ask for one reason or another; But, there are those of us who absolutely did want to play it as it was originally designed.

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I don't get what are you so incensed about... FFXI now its all about options and how you want to play your game. EVERYONE pointed this to you. OPTIONS!!! The old school way exist, but it is CRAPPY, OUTDATED, RIDICULOUS, and just plain RETARDED, hence 99% of players just speed level to 99. You want to argue? All right, explain to your fellow members why you have to move camp every 60-90 mnts or so because you level way too fast. In case your brain does not comprehend, even the old school style has been revamped, you can easily get 1k exp per kill not including exp bonus from books. So on lvl 10-60s, you will level so fast - the camp cannot sustain it. Just imagine at lvl 15s in valkrum where you gain level every 5-8 mobs killed. There are a few camps that can sustain you longer, aka Boyahda Tree, Kuftal Tunnel, etc, but with GoV giving you 2700-3500k xp bonus, and your xp rings, you will level rather fast, perhaps a bit slower than your normal GoV burns party. Understand that the way xp is gaines CHANGED!! which in effect influence how old school party is done.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Who are you to declare what constitutes the game as a whole?

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I think I just realized something, actually.

If you leveled to 75 in 2006 and then quit for whatever reason, you probably actually think that leveling is and was always supposed to be a centerpiece of FFXI.


tedtheodoreloganwoah.jpg

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

And I've explained to you on more than one occasion that inviting people to a classic grind party returns laughs and giggles.

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Because people aren't interested in that method of leveling anymore.

Just because you don't want to gain levels using the new tools available, you want to punish everyone and force them to play the way YOU want just because you feel like it? It's obvious that most people don't want old fashioned EXP parties. It's obvious that the game's design has changed to accommodate the player base's interests.

It's selfish to want to ruin the fun of a majority of the game's population just because you feel like it. It's obvious that this isn't the game for you anymore. The community has changed and we don't want what you want. Old fashioned parties are not the norm anymore, so go look somewhere else, because anyone with the slightest bit of sanity can see that the developers have absolutely no intention of returning EXP back to the way it used to be.

EDIT: No matter what arguments you make about old fashioned EXPing and how "right" you think you may be, it doesn't matter. Why? Because your opinions aren't going to make a difference. Abyssea has spoken for both the devs and the players, and we have both agreed that it was time to move the game's direction away from what your vision of what an exp party should look like. You don't have to take my word for it, because the evidence is everywhere.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

I don't get what are you so incensed about... FFXI now its all about options and how you want to play your game. EVERYONE pointed this to you. OPTIONS!!! The old school way exist, but it is CRAPPY, OUTDATED, RIDICULOUS, and just plain RETARDED, hence 99% of players just speed level to 99. You want to argue? All right, explain to your fellow members why you have to move camp every 60-90 mnts or so because you level way too fast. In case your brain does not comprehend, even the old school style has been revamped, you can easily get 1k exp per kill not including exp bonus from books. So on lvl 10-60s, you will level so fast - the camp cannot sustain it. Just imagine at lvl 15s in valkrum where you gain level every 5-8 mobs killed. There are a few camps that can sustain you longer, aka Boyahda Tree, Kuftal Tunnel, etc, but with GoV giving you 2700-3500k xp bonus, and your xp rings, you will level rather fast, perhaps a bit slower than your normal GoV burns party. Understand that the way xp is gaines CHANGED!! which in effect influence how old school party is done.

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So what you're saying, and correct me if I'm misunderstanding, is that I actually don't have a choice to go out and 6-man IT++ because the EXP is so high (and TNL so low) that it would only result in us moving camps every few mobs. You don't have to get huffy about your response, either. Keep calm.

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Originally Posted by Eric

Because people aren't interested in that method of leveling anymore.

Just because you don't want to gain levels using the new tools available, you want to punish everyone and force them to play the way YOU want just because you feel like it? It's obvious that most people don't want old fashioned EXP parties. It's obvious that the game's design has changed to accommodate the player base's interests.

It's selfish to want to ruin the fun of a majority of the game's population just because you feel like it. It's obvious that this isn't the game for you anymore. The community has changed and we don't want what you want. Old fashioned parties are not the norm anymore, so go look somewhere else, because anyone with the slightest bit of sanity can see that the developers have absolutely no intention of returning EXP back to the way it used to be.

EDIT: No matter what arguments you make about old fashioned EXPing and how "right" you think you may be, it doesn't matter.Why? Because your opinions aren't going to make a difference. Abyssea has spoken for both the devs and the players, and we have both agreed that it was time to move the game's direction away from what your vision of what an exp party should look like. You don't have to take my word for it, because the evidence is everywhere.

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I don't think I've yet to make such an assertive, immovable stance as of yet. However, someone's opinion got things changed to the way they are now, so why not mine? I don't really expect them to revert this game completely back to its former state - but removing the auto-repeat pages is entirely possible.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

So what you're saying, and correct me if I'm misunderstanding, is that I actually don't have a choice to go out and 6-man IT++ because the EXP is so high (and TNL so low) that it would only result in us moving camps every few mobs. You don't have to get huffy about your response, either. Keep calm.

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You have options. So do the people you invite. They are exercising their option of not joining you for a miserable gaming experience. The old options are still there. Your issue is with the players, not the system.