Job Manifesto discussion RE: Summoner

All of Korpg testing is spot on, I get the same results my smn skill is 476 and I can only see about a 4 second stun duration with Shocksquall, the distance to execute the bloodpact is rather nice though.

Spirits were not mentioned at all so they have not been adjusted however for giggles I pulled a few out and they act and do the same things they always have, giving me MP by the use of ES.

Test Server MP
Soothing Ruby MP Cost 74
Shocksquall MP Cost 67

Testing with Shocksquall on multiple mobs.

It seemed that every time I got more mobs of the same type one mob would be 1/2 resist to a 2 second stun and the others will get the full effect.

1 mob = 4-5 second stun
2 mob same type = A chance for a 4-5 second stun
2 mob different type = A chance to stun for 2 seconds the other will be 4-5 seconds

So I had 4 Raptors and 4 Beetles...
2 Raptors = 4-5 second stun
Other 2 raptors = 2 second stun
2 Beetles = 4-5 second stun
Other 2 Beetles = 2 second stun

With testing on the same two mobs over and over it looks as if whatever the full stun effect will be the 2nd mob is reduced to half that effect or possible 1/4. Sometimes this is not the case, sometimes they are both stunned for the same exact time.

My final feedback for Shocksquall

-MP Cost is fair amount
-The distance from Avatar to target is good to BP while staying out of harms way.
-The AoE range on the target is terrible It's like 8-10 should be at least 15 like Protectra.

I think you just got resisted on those stuns that only lasted about 2 seconds. I get that sometimes with just one mob.

Shock Squall is horrible at the moment, and I hope that SE will look into this and fix it before releasing.

You are aware that the new Summon abilities are listed in the "Known Issues" (link) of the test server.

Just thought I'd point that out.

(Glad to see it was seen, and mentioned... I like to have direct links to dev posts when possible on subjects they've commented on.)

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Perp costs are as follows at 95:

Celestial Avatars/Diabolos: 15 MP a tick
Carbuncle:11 a tick
Fenrir: 13 MP a tick

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This is not counting both auto refresh ya?

**"Edit

Not sure if everybody saw this.

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Summoner

Carbuncle Blood Pact: Soothing Ruby
The number of ailments removed is scheduled to vary according to the character's summoning magic skill, but is currently a set number.

Ramuh Blood Pact: Shock Squall
The amount of time before it takes effect as well as its maximum casting distance, effect duration, and MP cost are scheduled to change.

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I'm aware I even re-quoted it last page.

However they want Feedback, so I'm giving it...weather they are aware of it or not.

That was also pointed out in the last page here.

I'm just stating what I witnessed with the issue at hand. I also have offered my suggestions (greater than 15 second duration for being a recast timer of 45 seconds or greater) into this matter. I also have stated that it is impossible for me to test out Soothing Ruby since the test server only allowed a limited number of healing (I got 2 debuffs removed, I heard that you can get up to 3 on the test server) and I really don't feel like getting killed with Doom to see if the healing ability removes that, which by all likely it won't.

The real question is where these abilities incorrect before the Test Server or did they just post this after they heard feedback?

The post time was 2:53am Monday, the day the servers opened. So, I'd say they knew before feedback.

Well that's kinda lame:(

Hopefully they will do the right thing.

Just tested Shocksquall on the test server - pretty underwhelmed. Not really for its efficacy in terms of stun durations, but simply because of its casting nature. I'm sure there's some really interesting situations why Stunga would be useful, but one of the major reasons for any job ever to use any form of stun ability is to stop something a monster is presently doing (and many times, something really quick like a TP move)

The TP-move-style delay on bloodpact usage, makes the move almost useless - the only moves you'd be able to successfully stun with the added delay are AM spells and maybe some of the longer III/IV/V tier magic. Figure in the fact that many times a Stunga will produce unwanted adds from the aoe, and the normal recast timers of bloodpacts, and I can see Shocksquall getting quickly ignored. Its uses will likely be very niche and limited.

It's a great idea, but it needs improving, or it'll just become another Summoner "Hey look at this weird thing I can do!" gimmick--which SMN already has way too many of.

-*cough*-make spirits not useless-*cough*-

So, test the enmity!

Give me a situation and I'll test it for you.

**Edit

Did we say if the hate goes to the summoner or the avatar?

**Edit

Well got a bunch of mobs, used Shocksquall as soon as stun was off, they attack Ramuh once and went for me. Only hate I had was the dia from the mobs and the summoning of Ramuh to use shocksquall.

I'm assuming hate goes to avatar. I don't know if the tables are still accurate, but it looks like /blu is the way to go. Otherwise you may need a WHM. Keep in mind I am no expert.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/20380.html

MP drainkiss is 320 CE, 0 VE.

Tests on some L1 critter (I think):

1) Stunga pull, use pollen on self a couple times to see if enmity switches back to SMN. If so, it's all VE. (I think at this point you'd need help)
2) Stunga pull one mob, see how many times you can MP Drainkiss. CE < 320 x # of casts
3) Stunga pull 2 mobs, see if CE is the same on multiple mobs.

That's all I can think of. A less civilized test would be Stunga > whack with stick until it turns > add up damage.

OK scratch that... sounds like 0 enmity lol. Medic!

Didn't see if anyone mentioned it yet, but looks like SE is also nerfing Elemental Siphon.

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Originally Posted by Raleg

Didn't see if anyone mentioned it yet, but looks like SE is also nerfing Elemental Siphon.

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<huh!?> What do you mean, in what way is it nerfed?

Less mp returned. On normal servers i get a return of 504 when using element of same day, on test server its 466.

I thought that at first, but when I tried it my results were more abysmally obvious (but, it was before I realized that the moogle had screwed up my Summoning Magic Skill and for some reason it was at 55)

Are you positive your SMN skill was capped when you got the bad results?

Yeah, i double checked, had 454 smn skill and +20 elemental siphon augmented Tatsumaki sitagoromo in both instances.

I saw nothing wrong with Elemental Siphon.

I've done it 30+ times now, all with the same result.
I am getting the same numbers at level 95 on test server as I do at 90 on regular though.
Are you saying you're getting increased numbers on test server?

I'll help confirm

On Test Server I'm at 471 smn skill getting 507 MP back
***I'm not capped yet in smn skill

On normal Server I'm at 432 skill getting 464 MP back

43 Difference in MP.

hmm, thats weird. I'm at 489 and the ele siphon pants and i get 504mp on the test server. when i sub pants for caller's for 495 skill i get 489.

Are you wearing callers pig+2 as well? Thats an extra 40MP
Tatsumaki Sitagoromo add 15-20 MP

o.O /facepalm. yeah, i goofed up my macro and pigaches weren't being loaded...

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I brought out ThunderSpirit, sic'd it at a sapling in C.Mire, it used Thunder IV, enough testing was done to determine that, at level 95, Spirits were not updated and did not get any new spells.

Why don't you go on the test server and try it out, I'm sure you will get the same results as I did.

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Assuming SE isn't lying, I would need ASA. While I've always intended to buy it, I've just been going by "I'll buy it when I finish WotG". I'm still not done with WotG, but thinking of trying to press my friends to help me get going again. I might be able to do some testing on next update. (And perhaps get Cait Sith, Atomos, -BP timer delay stuff tested).

People really expected summoner to get something useful? At the risk of sounding like an utter troll you ppl have got to be delusional....SE always promises summoner love and never delivers (much).
If atomos is really 2hr onri i dont see how it would compete against odin and cait sith sounds cute but then well look at diabolos (whose the last true summon; but I'll try to remain optimistic.) When it comes to terrestrial Avatars I highly doubt they will put one any more reliable than carbuncle, or as mp efficient as Fenrir. (again we'll never know till they actually release it, but I once may assume.)
I personally really don't think SE knows what they are doing with summoner at all, esp when it comes to celestial avatars~ All the BP's added from 80+ on CELESTIAL Avatars are only really useful in rare situations... Was anyone really expectiing Squall to be any different?

also Mala ur fight for spirits, I think, is a lost cause; no matter how much u want them to update spirits I doubt they will. SE (obviously) admitted on the first post they wants us to choose AVATARS BASED ON THEIR ELEMENT. Therefore SE's Primary Agenda = to make the "avatars" what the spirits were 'supposed' to be. SO there's really no need for spirits to do anything more then they do now, besides you can't really sit here and compare puppetmaster's toy to spirits... If spirits were as powerful/smart as pups toy then that would definitely not be fair seeing how low maint/expendable spirits are compared to a puppet. Also Summoner was made on the idea of the avatar being controlled directly (tho oddly enough bst does it better), in short, non insulting, statement all I can really proclaim is you need to learn to like & use your avatars... or go play something else?

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Originally Posted by Zemarin

also Mala ur fight for spirits, I think, is a lost cause; no matter how much u want them to update spirits I doubt they will. SE (obviously) admitted on the first post they wants us to choose AVATARS BASED ON THEIR ELEMENT. Therefore SE's Primary Agenda = to make the "avatars" what the spirits were 'supposed' to be. SO there's really no need for spirits to do anything more then they do now, besides you can't really sit here and compare puppetmaster's toy to spirits... If spirits were as powerful/smart as pups toy then that would definitely not be fair seeing how low maint/expendable spirits are compared to a puppet. Also Summoner was made on the idea of the avatar being controlled directly (tho oddly enough bst does it better), in short, non insulting, statement all I can really proclaim is you need to learn to like & use your avatars... or go play something else?

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Mala was told all of that before. You know what his response is? "You are a troll and I'm blacklisting you because you don't agree with me!"

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Mala was told all of that before. You know what his response is? "You are a troll and I'm blacklisting you because you don't agree with me!"

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I read some of it... honestly SE only acknowledgement of spirits was using them as a means to "gimp" elemental siphon way back when. Also if you take a close look you'll notice SE never really actually gone over summoner like it has other pet jobs, what I mean by that is that aside from adding gear, some BPs/wishy washy Job Abilities, and making atma work the way they do, SE has never actually enhanced Avatars nor summoner (the job), seeing as it took them this long to even consider lowering Blood Pact timer. And honestly they seem to be reluctant when it comes to touching summoners pet, they honestly feel everything on summoner can be fixed thru gear >_> so I dunno where that person even got that idea that spirits will learn better spells. <_< anyways a Japanese friend of mine once told me a long time ago SE never wanted summoner to play as prominent of a role as int he past hence, why summoner compared to other pet jobs in this game is so reserved.

Honestly in the past, with regards to smn, SE just proclaims crap and never follows thru with it.I honestly doubt that would change in the future.

I agree, SMN is in desperate need of a good buff, something in lines of Blood Rage for WARs or that new JA that SAMs are getting.

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Also Summoner was made on the idea of the avatar being controlled directly (tho oddly enough bst does it better), in short, non insulting, statement all I can really proclaim is you need to learn to like & use your avatars... or go play something else?

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The point is still that I want to hear the official statement on this, and not just the opinions of random people. And that is pretty much it. Get confirmation that SE is trying to phase out spirits from the game.

I'm not expecting them to do anything about spirits, unless they first inform us, since I've asked about it.

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By implementing different stats for each avatar, we are afraid certain avatars will be selected disproportionately frequently and the variance of avatars will be limited. There is a possibility of being able to alter the stats of avatars by equipping gear, but basically we would like avatars to be chosen based on their elements.

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IF this isn't official enough mala i dunno what is hun... if your looking for devs to say "we are never updating your spirits" I doubt you will see it, but at the same time I don't see them saying much about updating them; it could be assumed that they WON'T. By a rule of the thumb SE HAS NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER in the pass EVER touched summons pets, so i dunno where you got the idea that they would.
I don't think dev's are dumb either its been months since spirits have NOT been casting the appropriate spells. They even went out their way to replace old elemental type mobs with newer ones in abyssea that cast newer spells, probably so summoners won't complain that an Earth elemental is using Stone V (even tho the ones in Ru aun are high enough to use it i have never seen em do it). I'm pretty sure its very intentional

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

The point is still that I want to hear the official statement on this, and not just the opinions of random people. And that is pretty much it. Get confirmation that SE is trying to phase out spirits from the game.

I'm not expecting them to do anything about spirits, unless they first inform us, since I've asked about it.

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They're not trying to phase them out, they just never planned them to be a big part of high level Summoning. Everytime SE mentions SMN it's Avatars they talk about not spirits. That in itself is a fair indication of what they're planning with spirits. At the very least they're seen as fine as they are for the forseeable future, you shouldn't really need an official "stfu about spirits" to see that.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

They're not trying to phase them out, they just never planned them to be a big part of high level Summoning. Everytime SE mentions SMN it's Avatars they talk about not spirits. That in itself is a fair indication of what they're planning with spirits. At the very least they're seen as fine as they are for the forseeable future, you shouldn't really need an official "stfu about spirits" to see that.

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I agree, I don't know what SE had originally intended for the use of spirits until E-Siphion came along.

Back on track...

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There is a possibility of being able to alter the stats of avatars by equipping gear, but basically we would like avatars to be chosen based on their elements.

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I think its been suggested that each avatar or selected ones needs a new BP's similar to Flaming Crush but a bit more potent for level 99.

Example 1...

Ifirit Level 99 BP:Rage
Volcanic Decimation (Two fold attack)
*First attack will deliver the physical attack
*Second attack will deliver a fire elemental attack (Similar to level 75 pacts.)

Example 2...

Ifirit Level 99 BP:Rage
Volcanic Decimation (Two fold attack)
*First attack will deliver the physical attack
*Second attack will deliver a fire elemental attack
**On the Second attack have it based off the avatars TP

I just wish summons made light, That's all I care about.. everything else can go to hell.. Blood pact words were never THAT useful, i lvled summoner when there was no split BP and they were all on one list. That besides atma was summoners biggest updates, everything after that has done much of nothing to add to Summoner ... I had a similar Idea to urs with the melee Blood pacts that did magic damage as well... it would be nice :D

but on another note flaming crush suks so They'd definately put some power behind it.

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Originally Posted by Zemarin

I just wish summons made light, That's all I care about.. everything else can go to hell.. Blood pact words were never THAT useful, i lvled summoner when there was no split BP and they were all on one list. That besides atma was summoners biggest updates, everything after that has done much of nothing to add to Summoner ... I had a similar Idea to urs with the melee Blood pacts that did magic damage as well... it would be nice :D

but on another note flaming crush suks so They'd definately put some power behind it.

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Ya, If they do make more powerful pacts then I see the 70 pacts going from like Dalmatica to Yingyang robe status =p Or something along those lines.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

They're not trying to phase them out, they just never planned them to be a big part of high level Summoning. Everytime SE mentions SMN it's Avatars they talk about not spirits. That in itself is a fair indication of what they're planning with spirits. At the very least they're seen as fine as they are for the forseeable future, you shouldn't really need an official "stfu about spirits" to see that.

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The only thing it says is that they are working on avatars. It doesn't say anything about if they forgot about spirits. You know, because the definition of forgetting something is to not talk about it.

In my eyes Elemental Siphon was added to help you keep spirits out longer, to promote more spirit usage, but it backfired. You use it as an argument for spirits now having a purpose and need no further work, while I read it as someone once again failed at getting an update right. It is all a matter of how you want to look at it. And that is why I need official word on the subject. It can be interpreted any way you like, and it makes it uncertain.

And I'm still wondering why it takes Camate so long to just ask the question and get a simple "yes/no" answer. I guess he values those 5 seconds of Developer time that it would steal to ask.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

The only thing it says is that they are working on avatars. It doesn't say anything about if they forgot about spirits. You know, because the definition of forgetting something is to not talk about it.

In my eyes Elemental Siphon was added to help you keep spirits out longer, to promote more spirit usage, but it backfired. You use it as an argument for spirits now having a purpose and need no further work, while I read it as someone once again failed at getting an update right. It is all a matter of how you want to look at it. And that is why I need official word on the subject. It can be interpreted any way you like, and it makes it uncertain.

And I'm still wondering why it takes Camate so long to just ask the question and get a simple "yes/no" answer. I guess he values those 5 seconds of Developer time that it would steal to ask.

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Seeing as they only ever mention Avatars, it's fairly safe to assume that spirtits aren't on the fix list for thhe forseeable future. They don't need to forget about something not to talk about, they just need to have no intention of dealing with them.

Elemental Siphon makes much more sense, as just an ability that helps us regain lost MP(seeing as we are the most MP intensive job outthere), SE wanted to give us an ability to regulate our MP use, but one we couldn't spam in battle. Putting them on the spirits was the trade off for that ability, you get a large chunk of MP back every 5 minutes, but the catch is you need to have a spirit out to get it. Judging by the way the ability works it's more likely that the spirits are the condition of it rather than the reason for it. Your version(no offense) makes little sense, because it implies they wanted spirits>Avatars, which hasn't really been seen anywhere else in the history of SMN adjustments.

I think the reps pick the questions they ask carefully because they have a better view of what the devs are planning and as such can already tell whats the devs will and won't respond to.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

The only thing it says is that they are working on avatars. It doesn't say anything about if they forgot about spirits. You know, because the definition of forgetting something is to not talk about it.

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Your definition perhaps, but when things are working as intended, and do not need any additional increase in work, maybe they haven't forgotten, but perhaps they are finished with spirits in general. They may add one or two things to enhance the use of spirits, which I highly doubt, but they will never make spirits equal to or exceeding avatars, much less players in general.

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In my eyes Elemental Siphon was added to help you keep spirits out longer, to promote more spirit usage, but it backfired. You use it as an argument for spirits now having a purpose and need no further work, while I read it as someone once again failed at getting an update right. It is all a matter of how you want to look at it. And that is why I need official word on the subject. It can be interpreted any way you like, and it makes it uncertain.

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I think Razushu's version is more accurate. A quick way to recover MP, but the cost is associated with the lost of an avatar for about 10 seconds. If they really wanted Elemental Siphon to enhance spirits, wouldn't the amount of MP recovered be associated with the amount of time the spirit is out? Say, if you need a quick MP fix, you can use Elemental Siphon for ~200 MP but if you have the spirit out for 5 minutes, you can recover the max current MP (~500) you can recover. Then your version of events may hold true.

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And I'm still wondering why it takes Camate so long to just ask the question and get a simple "yes/no" answer. I guess he values those 5 seconds of Developer time that it would steal to ask.

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May it is because the answer is so obvious to everyone but you to even ask the question. Your question sounds exactly like the following question: What is the number to 911?

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I think the reps pick the questions they ask carefully because they have a better view of what the devs are planning and as such can already tell whats the devs will and won't respond to.

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I don't know what kind of people they employ over there, but at my work I get happy each time someone drops by to ask a question that I'm able to answer and feel that I helped someone.

Spirits also happen to be a really hot topic. The majority of Summoners want to hear what will happen to spirits. The only ones saying "no thanks" are the people who fear that asking for spirits will somehow harm their chances at getting exactly what they want. Which is silly... do you see me sitting here complaining about all your questions "stealing my spirit question slot"?

(I only say that about the "How do I beat AV?" questions asked at festivals year after year)

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Spirits also happen to be a really hot topic.

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No it isn't. The only reason why Spirits keep getting brought up is because you keep bringing it up. You as in a singularity.

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The majority of Summoners want to hear what will happen to spirits.

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No they don't. Nobody but you has brought up spirits as a whole, and the people who expand on your ideas are doing that to shut you up. You do not speak for the majority of the playerbase, and most certainly not for the majority of playerbase who levels SMNs.

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The only ones saying "no thanks" are the people who fear that asking for spirits will somehow harm their chances at getting exactly what they want.

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You even don't listen to the people who oppose you in this limited viewpoint of yours. People have said "no thanks" to spirit updates for a variety of reasons (spirits are working as intended, there are more important things to fix on a SMN, spirits are not supposed to meet or exceed the power of avatars, etc).

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Which is silly... do you see me sitting here complaining about all your questions "stealing my spirit question slot"?

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There, you have admitted that you are the only person who even cares about spirits. If the above quotes were true as you stated, the bolded word would have been "our" instead of "my."

Also, the devs have specifically stated that the focus for SMNs will be avatars and not spirits.

How about unblacklisting people who don't share your viewpoint to get a real grasp on what people really want.