ATTN: Dev/Comm. Rep -Relic & Mythic Weapons Reborn {Yes, Please}- レリックとミシックの強化

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Originally Posted by Unctgtg

Lets change that a little bit.

Increase the damage multiplier of all relic WS by 1.5 for 1H relics and 2.5 for 2H relics.

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And we can rename them from Relic weapons to Munchkin weapons in the same update.

You're not going to get a 2H relic WS with an fTP in the 5.0-5.5 range *and* critical damage. Ukko's Fury is fTP 2.0 and 2 hits (or effectively fTP 3.0). So 5.25 critical damage on a DMG 140 weapon just isn't happening. The game would implode if they did that.

But what you really mean is that you want 2H relics to be better than 1H by a wide margin rather than having them do essentially similar damage. 2H relics have very high base damage, they don't need as much of an fTP boost as the 1H relics.

If they add 1.5 to 1H and 1.0 to 2H that would mean that 1H WS would all become fTP 4.25 - 4.5 and 2H WS would become fTP 3.75 - 4.0 depending on the WS. The 2H weapons all have much higher base DMG than the 1H weapons so the WS damage would be in the same ballpark with the 2H WS being on average still somewhat higher damage than the 1H WS thanks to the higher base damage of the weapons.

i'll split the difference with you and myself on our 30% and 20% and go for 25% odd and odt.

Personally i can't see why a dagger and a gaxe, gun, scythe, gkatana should do "about the same" dmg ws wise. It just doesn't seem "right" to me.

also making relic ws able to crit is something that i've wanted all along but after a very long discussion with a couple friends I took that out thinking it might be too much on top of everything else we've been asking for.

True just putting 25% more dmg on ws is inelegant but i'm at the point that I'd take any boost that I can get. In a perfect world where they plan to truly fix everything then I completely agree with what you propose, but this is SE we're talking about. I just want some type of fix to make all my work relevant again.

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Originally Posted by Dart

i'll split the difference with you and myself on our 30% and 20% and go for 25% odd and odt.

Personally i can't see why a dagger and a gaxe, gun, scythe, gkatana should do "about the same" dmg ws wise. It just doesn't seem "right" to me.

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If you're going to go there then Annihilator should be the highest damage weapon in the game by a very, very, very wide margin. Gun should massively beat everything if you're trying to be "realistic".

But that would make one job/weapon much better than all others and we don't want that because it isn't fun for the other 17 jobs. So instead we shrug and say "well it's a game where midgets throw fireballs at monsters so screw reality" and make things balanced instead.

well played, but still avoiding the point lol

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Originally Posted by Dart

well played, but still avoiding the point lol

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No I covered that point and you simply missed it. I guess I'll have to spell it out for you.

If balance will be harmed by realism then realism should be shown the door. It's as simple as that.

You should not spend the amount of effort to obtain a relic and yet still be behind someone else. Therefore making relic holders generally equal is the best solution. Relics WS should be better than everything else but about equal to each other for this reason.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

No I covered that point and you simply missed it. I guess I'll have to spell it out for you.

If balance will be harmed by realism then realism should be shown the door. It's as simple as that.

You should not spend the amount of effort to obtain a relic and yet still be behind someone else. Therefore making relic holders generally equal is the best solution. Relics WS should be better than everything else but about equal to each other for this reason.

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And two handed relics (guns/bows including) should be better then the one handers.

sorry but your reason for all relic's being equal doesn't wash, it hasn't since you first mentioned it. Speaking condescending to others doesn't change the fact that it just doesn't wash with me and most relic holders that I've talked with.

You know what else doesn't seem right. That the mob doesn't die after one swing. After all if you stab it in the head with a dagger or chop it off with a gaxe, it's going to be dead after the first hit.

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Originally Posted by Unctgtg

And two handed relics (guns/bows including) should be better then the one handers.

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No they should not because balance between jobs is more important than realism. One job should not be 100% superior to another. Look at the current situation with RNG if you need an example of why this is bad.

If 2H relics are vastly superior to 1H relics as your suggestion would make them then why would anyone ever upgrade anything but a 2H relic? Upgrading a 1H relic like Kikoku would be wasting your time and gil for a greatly inferior end result.

Now if 2H weapons had higher WS damage but 1H relics made up for that in some other way then balance would still be maintained.

Fine, 2H relics get higher WS damage as per your suggestion and 1H weapons get Occasionally Attacks Twice on top of their normal OTD. Lower WS damage but higher DPS and TP generation. Balance is maintained.

Apologies for making you wait for some more info on this topic.

You might be surprised, but even though the July version update has just taken place, the dev. team has already begun work on the next version update and we checked with the lead dev. about the latest status.

There are currently no changes to the adjustment plans that were announced previously. Based on this, we are planning to add continuations to Trial of the Magians for relic/mythic/empyrean weapons to go along with the level cap increase.

We took a look at all the requests for stats on relics and mythics and understand your ideas, so in addition to enhancing the original DMG and special stats, we are checking to see whether we can add some special properties to them. (Currently, exactly what those properties will be and how they will be added is still up in the air.)

Since Empyreans got a weapon skill @ level 85 I think it would be wise to add a specific weapon skill at 95 for relic and a job ability (or a new aftermath) for myhtics.

Relics get a specific ws at 75. You think they should get two? >_>

Adding more specific weapon weaponskills is just stupid. All it does is keep separating the people that have no lives from the casuals. It was already bad that there are jobs that suck unless they get a specific WoE or Emp ws, then they are good. All that work just to be on par with other jobs. I hope at 99 they will allow all jobs to have the new ws, which will help balance out some of the jobs so all jobs have a crit based ws

relic need a big boost tho they should easy be able to do double the dmg u can do with a empyrian u can get in a week relic takes like 1-3 years

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Originally Posted by xbobx

All it does is keep separating the people that have no lives from the casuals.

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I don't see the problem as long as casual players are getting content as well. Also, in case you just came back from Mars, dynamis coins farming is very doable by casual players.

Mythics are the ones that really need some help. Screw relic holders, Mythics were never king and took way more effort.

They should just make Relics easier now, the same way they nerfed Thief Knife and Kraken Club to be more attainable. Like reduce the currency required by 90% (1760 coins instead of 17600), its not a challenge its a time sink. Time sinks don't make you badass they show how you weigh your video game with your real life.

What about the people who get free level 90 relics from Mog Bonanza?

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Originally Posted by Kimble

Relics get a specific ws at 75. You think they should get two? >_>

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You are getting enhances counter IV so why not Final Heaven II ? It's all about internet pixels (and replacing a number by another in the code)

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

You are getting enhances counter IV so why not Final Heaven II ? It's all about internet pixels.

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Since relics got a WS damage boost at 90 (25% I think it was?), they already got "Final Heaven II" basically.

They didn't anything beside damage+stats boost.

Biggest thing that needs to happen with relics is to have their aftermaths re-evaluated/overhauled. Mythics and Emp aftermaths are just a flat type. Relics have something unique to each of their aftermaths that range from completely useless (Gungnir) to completely overpowered (Scythe).

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

They didn't anything beside damage+stats boost.

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at 90, relics got a 25% boost to their respective weapon skills while mythics got a 15% boost to their respective weapon skills.

So yes, they basically have the "II" version of their WS.

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Originally Posted by Qtipus

Biggest thing that needs to happen with relics is to have their aftermaths re-evaluated/overhauled. Mythics and Emp aftermaths are just a flat type. Relics have something unique to each of their aftermaths that range from completely useless (Gungnir) to completely overpowered (Scythe).

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This, since that added effects were what either made the relic the very best or meh not worth the effort for the gain(or a dumb a$$ agi mod >.>).

SE, please don't listen to any of these people on the official forums for ideas about relic weapon adjustments. I much prefer your judgement over theirs.

Just dont listen to Pchan and we should be golden.

The mods I'm not worried about for the most part. A lot of WS with crappy mods can be overcome by high amounts of STR/DEX/Att/Acc. Sure, Geirskogul having an AGI mod is about as useful as a one-legged man in a butt-kicking contest, but it doesn't break the WS or make it completely useless.

One of the biggest reasons mythics never really took hold, outside of the whole alexandrite thing, is because you could quest the WS. It speaks volumes that Drakesbane kicks the crap out of Geirskogul and Camlann's Torment. Don't get me wrong, DRG needed a WS like Drakesbane anyway to be in the DD discussion, but it just goes to show that despite the ease of acquisition involved with Emps and the overpowered WS a few of them have, there are WS in both Relic and Mythic categories that overshadow the Emps.

If the end goal is balance for these 3 categories of uber-weapons, they aren't really that far off, at least from an individual standpoint. From a time-needed-to-get standpoint, yeah emps are way too easy to get. My linkshell spent every event dedicated to getting every member at least one Emp. Fourteen Emps completed in a month and a half. Took us nearly 3 years going into Dynamis as often as we could, often splitting up zones for coin farming to finish that many relics prior to the changes.

Really nice to here you are still planning to adjust relic weapons, a overhaul of the haste aftermath on apoc changing it from gear haste would be a good start. I look forward to hearing some more news when its available.

They probably will give us another 25% boost at 95 and another at 99 with more damage

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Originally Posted by Unctgtg

They probably will give us another 25% boost at 95 and another at 99 with more damage

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Comparing 85 Kannagi and 90 Kikoku, regardless in or outside aby, kannagi beat kikoku any-ways you name it except the silly base dmg... I don't have a emp scythe to compare with but even they boost another 100% of relic ws it's still no match to emp whatsoever.

Just from my experience, the dmg done from emp ws almost ignore the level of the enemy. Unlike relic ws is still bonded by the tradition ws method. By simply adding percentage to relic ws dmg output will only make it look good on low level mob and I have yet to see any difference on high level mob, or have you? Did the 25% make a difference? You think so or just because SE said so?

I'm glad the moogle reply but I still got a sense that SE is playing around with left-over relic owner because they felt sore and crying all the time like myself.

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Originally Posted by Sama

Comparing 85 Kannagi and 90 Kikoku, regardless in or outside aby, kannagi beat kikoku any-ways you name it except the silly base dmg... I don't have a emp scythe to compare with but even they boost another 100% of relic ws it's still no match to emp whatsoever.

Just from my experience, the dmg done from emp ws almost ignore the level of the enemy. Unlike relic ws is still bonded by the tradition ws method. By simply adding percentage to relic ws dmg output will only make it look good on low level mob and I have yet to see any difference on high level mob, or have you? Did the 25% make a difference? You think so or just because SE said so?

I'm glad the moogle reply but I still got a sense that SE is playing around with left-over relic owner because they felt sore and crying all the time like myself.

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Kannagi is the only empyrean that is always better then its relic and mythic counterparts.
THE ONLY ONE.
Even Ukon is outparsed by its relic counterpart on high tier voidwatch mobs, AND it gives -20% damage taken! And higher tier NMs is the type of stuff SE is going to be adding now that abyssea is over, you all need to get over the idea that relics are broken and weak, because they are not, only 1 is completely terrible compared to its empyrean counterpart, Kikoku, and ninja is a dead job for anything slightly difficult, so it doesn't even matter unless they fix ninja.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

They didn't anything beside damage+stats boost.

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Which is what "Relic WS II" would be anyway.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Even Ukon is outparsed by its relic counterpart on high tier voidwatch mobs, AND it gives -20% damage taken!

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I would love to see this parse and/or math.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Apologies for making you wait for some more info on this topic.

You might be surprised, but even though the July version update has just taken place, the dev. team has already begun work on the next version update and we checked with the lead dev. about the latest status.

There are currently no changes to the adjustment plans that were announced previously. Based on this, we are planning to add continuations to Trial of the Magians for relic/mythic/empyrean weapons to go along with the level cap increase.

We took a look at all the requests for stats on relics and mythics and understand your ideas, so in addition to enhancing the original DMG and special stats, we are checking to see whether we can add some special properties to them. (Currently, exactly what those properties will be and how they will be added is still up in the air.)

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Please don't ignore me, can you at least acknolwedge there are a small number of empyreans which need tweaking as well? Dagger will suck compared to an upgraded Mandau, I'd really like to be using Camlann's Torment as my main WS when I finish this lance, and everyone trashes Scythe, Wildfire users will suffer when abyssea is no longer the main content badly etc.. Please can I get an answer?

Surely you've seen my posts on this topic across the general board? The key point I'll reiterate though, whatever weapon you make, the new WS that comes with it should become your new main WS, whatever it takes to make that happen. (10% armor ignore on camlann's is a joke when wheeling is 50, though I still don't even think that change would tie it with drakesbane, and it should be better, not tied(in the hands of a rhongomiant owner obviously, ryunohige drakesbane is obviously tier 1 and should be.))

Please, please answer about the tiny number of empyreans that need tweaking (not all of them are almace/ukon/verethragna.)

Edit: One idea for Camlann's: gradually stacking armor reduction buff capping at a certain point (obviously higher than angon to be worthwhile) preferably with repeated use refreshing the duration. Still, then it'd just be niche, I really wish these weapons just used their WS as their new mains universally. Feels like bad design otherwise.

Wildfire is still a good WS outside of abyssea so not sure how you think we will "suffer"

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Originally Posted by Kimble

Wildfire is still a good WS outside of abyssea so not sure how you think we will "suffer"

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Without MAB atma and fire affinity atma its damage falls pretty radically. It'll be gimpy compared to annihilator most likely. Yet doesn't offer the same amount of -enmity (only for the WS itself), Camate himself said he wanted these weapons to be evenly balanced (which would have mean with their own pros and cons mostly likely.)

Guess I'll throw in my 2cents:

empyreans: Only get base dmg increase and minor boost in attack up to 99

Mythics: New additional latent @95: Critical attack rate +15% @99 +20%
New addition to aftermath: regain -- 100 to 199 = 1 tick 200 to 299 = 2 tick 300 = 3 tick @ 95 @99 2/3/5 ticks

Relic: New additional latent @95: Critical attack rate +25% @99 +30%
New addition to aftermath: regain -- 100 to 199 = 2 tick 200 to 299 = 3 tick 300 = 5 tick @ 95 @99 5/7/10 ticks

this is in addition to the already known enhancements the weapons will receive

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

I would love to see this parse and/or math.

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Metatron from 90 bravura does more than Ukkos without crits, which you wont be capped ddex on high tier NMs so you wont get lots of crits, and you don't have all that +crit damage you have in abyssea, and with bravura you can use meat and keep capped acc on such mobs, with ukon you have to give up a bit to keep acc capped. That tips everything into Bravuras favor for hard NMs. If they gave us razed ruins all the time, Ukon would win, but for hard mobs, outside abyssea, Bravura is SLIGHTLY better damage, and makes you take 20% less damage so it ends up being vastly superior.

Giving regain is annoying for people who have worked their butts off to get 5 or 6 hit setups etc. It won't really do anything for those players.

I'm already disliking where this thread is going like empyrean owners are some criminals who deserve nothing for their hard work.

Emps aren't hard work. When you can finish 14 of them in a month and a half like our linkshell did, that's not hard. That's what I call a gift. Even now, SE has gone out of their way to make acquiring said Emps easier (re: Guku, Tunga, etc KIs in gold boxes, more gold boxes/zone, multiple ???s for the NMs themselves) and it was a month and half to do 14 of them before those changes. From a time comparison standpoint, Relics and Mythics are infinitely "harder" than emps. Doesn't mean the process involved in getting the upgrade items isn't as monotonous, just means you're not having to deal with the monotony anywhere near as long.

As for regain, if someone busted their ass getting a 5 or 6 hit build, they busted it to WS faster, right? Wouldn't regain facilitate that and why would they be annoyed?

I just dont understand how se can think the mythic requirements are viable. 30,000 Alexandrite when you get on average 20 to 30 max a run (averaging out runs where boss drops purse and runs with crap alex and normal runs). Thats 1000 runs. At one run a day it will take 2 years 9 months and 3 weeks and a day of doing salvage every day on your own. I think asking for that kind of effort when as someone posted earlier 14 empyreans can be done in a month is ridiculous. Especially after SE has pretty much killed off linkshells and promoted low man salvage like parties people dont have the resources to do this reasonably. Most everyone who does salvage saves the alex anyways for their own mythic. So not being willing to lower the requirement and not increasing drop rates tells every person who wants a mythic you expect day after day dedication for 3 years of their life. I dont know any other game with that type of work required and in the twilight of this games life it seems extreme to expect that. I really hope you will come to your sense and reconsider.

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Originally Posted by Qtipus

Emps aren't hard work. When you can finish 14 of them in a month and a half like our linkshell did, that's not hard. That's what I call a gift. Even now, SE has gone out of their way to make acquiring said Emps easier (re: Guku, Tunga, etc KIs in gold boxes, more gold boxes/zone, multiple ???s for the NMs themselves) and it was a month and half to do 14 of them before those changes. From a time comparison standpoint, Relics and Mythics are infinitely "harder" than emps. Doesn't mean the process involved in getting the upgrade items isn't as monotonous, just means you're not having to deal with the monotony anywhere near as long.

As for regain, if someone busted their ass getting a 5 or 6 hit build, they busted it to WS faster, right? Wouldn't regain facilitate that and why would they be annoyed?

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Not everyone has a setup going for them where they can reach that level of efficiency and you're thinking unrealistically if you think that's how it is. Technically you could finish the relic in the blink of an eye if you had capped gil ready and waiting. That doesn't mean relics aren't hard. Also, don't ignore the NM stage (many of them are glitched to hell and take like 16 hours) and the HORRIBLE VNM stage that's unfun incarnate. But whatever, empyrean owners do nothing to earn their weapons in your mind, I forgot. Also, there's SO much fighting involved in getting a relic now'a'days. Sit and craft then go fight a floating weapon and some fomors. Big whoop.

I'm working on Excalibur too and there's none of the frustration or drama involved, it's all very clear what has to be done to finish it. I don't pay 140,000 gil (only 1 NM by the way, not the full popset or even close) thinking I'll get 2 buds just to get 1 and don't have to compete with 2 or 3 other people for my o pieces. I can't go buy these chloris leaf buds, unless you want to count paying like 500k to get one popset done, which isn't very logical. Not to mention the way people treat eachother when FCing the bats.

But nope, everyone has a full party of emp owners and has it down to a science, we're all the most elite endgame LS in the game who you're referencing and don't have to take turns working on other peoples weapons.

I love how relic owners think Empyreans should just be completely overlooked in this set of buffs just because of ukon/almace/vere when its obvious some of the formulas for certain empyrean WS need tweaking to be worth a damn and not just have the weapon exist for double damage aftermath.