A Suggestion From The Pet Job Community: Stop Ignoring Us and Listen To Our Plea.

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

A SMN, a PUP and a BST walk into a bar in Sand'Oria...

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And the DRG already in the bar says, "So you couldn't get an invite either?"

Job needs for DRG:
- able to call out a new pet as fast as the other pet jobs can
- a self-buff JA like WAR/DRK/MNK have
- add haste to wyvern since DRGs don't equip much pet:haste gear
- Jump bonuses that apply to ALL jumps
And of course, the obligatory need more def, att, acc, and dawn mulsums need to stack...

PUP needs longer maneuvers and pets that can hit tough stuff.

Blah blah blah AoE party buffs, damage reduction, whatever it takes to get pet jobs into endgame content as an alternative party slot...

Great suggestions for DRG Mitruya! It's the one pet job I've played the least so I haven't had much to say about it - and although it is in a somewhat better situation than other pet jobs it still needs a buff.

Still waiting for a real commitment from the devs to fix pet jobs.

I neglected to give credit to Ophannus on FFXIAH.com; I basically pulled the majority of that list from a thread on there. DRG does get invites once in a while but I don't think it's a top choice if a WAR/DRK/SAM is available.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Blood pacts have high damage but are limited by a set timer that can't go lower than a certain amount, unlike other jobs where you can gain TP faster and perform multiple high damage attacks in the time it takes a summoner to do one blood pact. Even if the summoner melees and adds their own WS to the mix, it's not enough to catch up

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SMN don't melee to add damage, they nuke. SMN gets exactly the same gear BLM gets, the same weapons, and with /SCH nearly the same skill. (I'm pretty sure the appropriate storm spell and klimaform actually puts the at higher accuracy than the BLM for every element but thunder.) They're just a few MAB behind from missing the trait. (Which the storm+ obi easily compensates for, again, except thunder.)

Not only does dropping a 6k bloodpact every 37 seconds help tremendously, but then doing a 1200 damage nuke every second for the next 36 seconds until you can do it again, for 4 mp/spell. SMN does about as much as anyone else, and can do it from outside aoe range too. (Plus for some reason, bloodpacts almost always remove boss auras.) The avatar meleeing also adds damage, and gets them more tp so the next pact is even stronger. And that's a SMN walking around in nq hagondes and eminent weapon/satchet. Stick HQ hagondes with perfect augments, seraphicaller and 119 nirvana for a level 121 avatar, that does 11k damage bloodpacts instead of 6k, and can drop enemy evasion-25%, or a Scherzo effect, or a 3 minute warcry on the party, and suddenly you see why 6 nirvanas have shown up on my server in the last 6 months. And that's before being able to fall back on probably the most damaging 1 hour in the game in astral conduit, and the best defensive one in perfect defense. (Which thanks to job points, even make each other stronger.)

Bloodpact ability delay isn't even a problem. Head and hands, done, capped. Or head, hands, and cape if you don't want to +1 them. Then ammo, body, and feet cap delay II.

And for some reason 115 avatars with no pet enhancing gear have the same stats as 119 jug pets in full pet enhancing gear, with a permanent DT-50%, are immune to 2 of the 8 elements, and have no recast timer. And their bloodpacts are perfectly reliable, because Summoning skill acts as acc and magic acc for them. My shitty SMN has basically replaced my BST for everything except arch angel Mithra soloing, and that's due solely to laziness. (I don't want to sleep the tiger for pet swaps.) Also, since the SMN doesn't need to melee, the pet food has been nothing but a boon to them. SMN is working just fine.

SMN is certainly in a better place than BST. BST has no party buffs worth using, costs a fortune, and can barely hit a brick wall.

^^Yea, that are damaging and have other utility uses......I don't see the issue, but then again, I am not a smn. Just observe their awesomeness from afar^^

Also can we please at least get a jug pet we can buy with sparks since RNG and COR no longer even have to spend gil or gather materials or do anything but use sparks for consumables now if they don't want to? Tired of spending a fortune on BST.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello, everyone.

Rest assured that the development team has not forgotten about pets, nor are they ignoring your feedback. Everything is being taken in and considered for adjustments.

The first adjustment that they are planning, as we mentioned previously, is the addition of food that will affect both the master and the pet. Amongst this new food, there will be accuracy enhancing food, much like sushi, that will increase the accuracy for both the master and the pet. These new foods will be added in the next version update.

Also, due to the fact that pets cannot receive enhancements from songs and such, the development team is planning to make the effect received from food higher for pets than what the player receives.

Before any further adjustments are made, we’d like to start by implementing this first and monitoring the situation for a while. After the version update is live, please be sure to try out the food and let us know your feedback.

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Hi Camate... so just wondering, has the dev team been "monitoring the situation" lately? Cause I haven't seen a single shout for a single pet job since food came in... and when I play with my LS mates, I still fall far behind in DD than people on other DD jobs (not even mnks... I mean like BLU)

So... yeah when is the update that makes pet jobs get full buffs like other jobs? Thanks.

love,

Olor

Well, the master certainly got a buff; bst weaponskills (Can finally use cloudsplitter :) ) and the WKR axes are nice, but the master was never the problem, lol, it was the pets. The new food looks nice, but yea, the same issues exist. SE is trying to make our pets serviceable dds by not giving us pet boosting JAs and damaging moves....

Hows that working out for ya :)

I find this quite funny and also contradictory.

Has anyone tried akamochi in endgame? (or had luck being invited in the first place...)
Still waiting for balanced content, SE.

I can maintain a solid hit-rate on normal; I highly doubt someone can attain a decent hit-rate on VD (Would love to know myself^^), even with run wild, food, and optimization/pet full on acc gear. According to BG, the food does not look like a fix; gives acc and some attack. However, the added attack is a nice idea.

Pets need a re-haul; plain and simple. Nobody has time to babysit a weaker pt member that does very little to contribute. We should not have to gear for pets, jugs/automatons should be able to take-care of themselves.

As it pertains to bst, I do not give 2 craps about my pet anymore. I strictly gear for myself; it is a waste to gear for them imo. You can maintain a good hit-rate on normal, perhaps hard/difficult, but why bother? Foot kick? Headbutt? Sensilla blades? Molted plumage? Sweeping gouge? Personally, I will not carter to a jug's pet accuracy issues when that pet possess weak ready moves. I am not going to help him reach 100tp so he can do some BS crap move for triple digits. It is not like jugs do great DoT. Screw jugs atm, lol. If SE loved, Gamboge beetles, Hippos, Craklaws, and Opo-opos as much as they like grasshoppers, pink birdies, crabs, and rabbits, I would attempt to gear for them, but personally, I am tired of the BS pets and the non-existent JAs for pets.

Gee, how about a decent shield for BST. Wild carrot via a familiar takes too long and is too weak, an ability to put pets back in jugs would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Railer

Gee, how about a decent shield for BST. Wild carrot via a familiar takes too long and is too weak, an ability to put pets back in jugs would be nice.

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Bst should have received a REM shield by now. Bst appears to be a 1 hander dd, no native DW. A shield would be nice; perhaps a bst ONLY delve shield. "Recycle pets and some other pet/master boosting combo." Would have to be powerful enough for this to happen, 1 hand > DW; but yea, I agree with you^^

It is sort of odd that BSTs can't scavenge food or recycle jugs or something. Almost every other job with consumables seems to have a way to mitigate this expense using gear or a JA.
We still need Dawn Mulsums to stack, please.

We should get at least native dual wield 3, or we should get a decent shield skill and some really good shields to use with it. Hell, if scythe wasn't pretty much universally the most terrible weapon in the game, I'd even take some good BST scythes... but right now we got nothing.

Hey WoW keep your fingers crossed that the sheep Camate talked about in another thread makes it in the game when they toss in the new pets.

Yea, I just read about that. Those Kahmir sheep are nasty. The pet adjustments look nice, more than what I expected; plea heard I suppose^^

This line has bandwagon written all over it though, lol. "We’re planning to boost the combined damage over time capability of the master and pet so that it is greater than that of your standard damage dealer as there are certain costs associated with maintaining pets." Wow, if the sheep is the cheaper pet, wonder what is the costly pet gonna be (If there is one). Imo, if the pets are damaging, most will probably accept the price if they can be used in endgame.

BST with scythe would be so freakin' awesome. (I really wanted to like DRK, but with scythe not being the preferred weapon it's just sort of meh.) Agreed that BST either needs Dual Wield or shield skill (or both). On the other hand, Dar carried a sword ... ;p
The latest post from Camate does have me intrigued.

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Originally Posted by Mitruya

The latest post from Camate does have me intrigued.

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I am hopeful that they said they want pet jobs to be stronger - but none of the suggested changes they listed suggest they are actually going to achieve it. I think they are VERY FAR off of what is needed to bring BST in particular in line with other DDs. BST has no native DD abilities - single wield, and axe weaponskills are very weak compared to say GKT.

Increasing the power of ready moves is not helpful since the timer is so long and JA delay makes master fall behind even further. Also the accuracy of them is terrible.

Food is a band-aid that helps us sort of catch up but not really since it means we can't eat the best food for master damage output. Our pets don't get madrigals so in buffed situations the master is forced to choose, eat acc food and have master damage fall or eat attack food and have pet damage fall behind? Nevermind that it means that we also can't eat the best food for DDs, we are stuck eating food that also boosts pet. So other DDs can eat red curry buns but if we do our pets lose out? Food is a terrible "fix" because it has to be balanced against all jobs.

It's impossible to get full pet haste without gimping the master and even with full pet haste, you don't get all the other stats players have on a HUGE percentage of your damage output. Let's not forget that no magical haste is pretty much a dealbreaker in terms of damage potential.

I really don't see how the three things Camate mentioned will bring BST anywhere close to other DDs - let alone surpassing them in unbuffed situations...

What pet jobs need = pets can get all buffs and be healed
All stats on master's gear apply to pets

Otherwise basically they need to give BST monstrously powerful axes, uncap all pets and allow BST affinity to give levels to pet over the weapon level. The level correction would make the pets hit hard enough to make a difference but seriously, a gimpy pet doing 75 damage at like 25% gear haste is not helpful even if instead of doing 1000 for it's WS every 2 minutes it could do 3000... not going to help

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

As an overarching theme for job adjustments we are planning to make attack adjustments to damage dealing jobs based on monk’s current attack capabilities.

One aspect of this overall adjustment plan was the skill chain and weapon skill enhancements that gave samurai more power.

• Warrior
  Compared to monk, warrior’s hit per hit strength is slightly lacking as an attacker, and the development team feels a need to give them attack power that is more suitable and in order to do this they are looking into a new type of system.
  
  
• Puppetmaster
  We’ll be reducing the damage gap between each of the weapon skills performed by automatons and make it so you’ll be able to better control your maneuvers to match the attachments you are using.
  
  
• Beastmaster, dragoon, and puppetmaster
  To give a rough overview of our plans for these three jobs, we’re planning to boost the combined damage over time capability of the master and pet so that it is greater than that of your standard damage dealer as there are certain costs associated with maintaining pets.
  
  As such, the development team is looking into the following adjustments:
  • Implementation of higher-tier mochi
    By adding new mochi, a pet’s attack and accuracy will be supplemented further.
    
    
  • Improvements to the power of special abilities
    Just as we increased the damage value of pet’s special abilities in the January version update, we’ll be making further adjustments to this again as we move forward.
    
    
  • New “Call Beast” pets
    We’re still in the midst of planning the addition of new pets, and as an example of a pet that can utilized for a comparatively lower cost, a Lucerewe-type sheep has been brought up as a possible candidate.

The team has been assigning priority to the various job adjustment tasks at hand, so please stayed tuned for further details for each of these adjustments.

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I'd like to begin by saying that the above adjustments for pet jobs mentioned by Camate sound very promising; however, as we have all learned very well, we shouldn't get our hopes up just yet. A couple of people have already mentioned that although the development team does seem to be moving in the right direction, all of their suggestions really won't solve the struggle of pet jobs on a long term level.

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Originally Posted by Camate

[*]Puppetmaster
We’ll be reducing the damage gap between each of the weapon skills performed by automatons .

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Starting with their announcement about Puppetmaster, reducing the damage gap between each weapon skill is definitely a long awaited fix. By doing this, it will allow us to utilize some of the lower level weapon skills such as Cannibal Blade, Bone crusher, Knock out, Slap Stick, and Daze that have tactical uses in comparison to our highest tier weapon skills. However, I'd like to see something similar to the weapon skill revisions we seen in the June update applied to Automaton weapon skills because some of the lower level weapon skills automaton's acquire need a few fixes.
* Cannibal Blade - This weapon skill is very useful because it drains HP and deals damage, however, the weapon skill is not practical sometimes because it generates no enmity. The development team should take into consideration allowing this weapon skill to generate enmity as well as receive a substantial damage boost so that it has a greater use to the Valor Edge Frame
* Magic Moarter - Even after revisions in the past to this weapon skill, it's still considerably weak. I'd like to see further adjustment to this weapon skill maybe even possibly making it no longer HP % dependent.
* As for other weapon skills, some modifiers and skillchain properties should definitely be moved around so that they are more competitive with the top tier weapon skills that automatons have. I would even go so far to say that some weapon skills' maneuver priorities should be changed. For example, making a strong weapon skill prioritized under Fire Manuever so that it can be combined with Flame Holder and Attack Attachments for a bigger damage result.

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Originally Posted by Camate

[*]Puppetmaster
Make it so you’ll be able to better control your maneuvers to match the attachments you are using.

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This comment was extremely vague but it sounds as though the development team is considering revamping the maneuver system but exactly what they are doing is up to interpretation... Extending maneuver duration or allowing us to use more than 3 maneuvers so that we can activate more attachments at a time are all possibilities, but I strongly doubt that they would do either of those things.

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Originally Posted by Camate

[*]Beastmaster, dragoon, and puppetmaster
To give a rough overview of our plans for these three jobs, we’re planning to boost the combined damage over time capability of the master and pet so that it is greater than that of your standard damage dealer as there are certain costs associated with maintaining pets.

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It's clearly hard to argue with the development team making pet jobs stronger than the standard damage dealer. I would say that making us stronger than standard damage dealers is possibly a bad idea because you would essentially be putting standard damage dealers in the same position that pet jobs are in currently, but if pet jobs are slightly stronger than standard damage dealers, I believe that it would be fair because we need that handicap granted we deal with pets dying easily, the costs of curing and summoning our pets, and for jobs like Puppetmaster, job ability animation spam which can considerably lower dps over time.

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Originally Posted by Camate

As such, the development team is looking into the following adjustments:

• Implementation of higher-tier mochi
  By adding new mochi, a pet’s attack and accuracy will be supplemented further.
  
  
• Improvements to the power of special abilities
  Just as we increased the damage value of pet’s special abilities in the January version update, we’ll be making further adjustments to this again as we move forward.
  
  
• New “Call Beast” pets
  We’re still in the midst of planning the addition of new pets, and as an example of a pet that can utilized for a comparatively lower cost, a Lucerewe-type sheep has been brought up as a possible candidate.

[/list]
The team has been assigning priority to the various job adjustment tasks at hand, so please stayed tuned for further details for each of these adjustments.

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* Adding higher tier Mochi - This isn't necessarily a bad idea because the current pet food is pretty pathetic granted the development team essentially said that the foods accuracy and attack value was supposed to also take into consideration the fact that pets do not receive buffs from Songs, Rolls, and Geomancy. 100 Accuracy and 100 Attack from pet food is not incorporating the missing values pets don't receive from those buffs. I'd at least like to see pets receiving 25% attack and accuracy (About 250 Accuracy and Attack) from food to supplement for us not receiving these necessary effects.

I'd also like to point out that adding higher tier Mochi to deal with the accuracy and attack deficiency that pets currently have is a horrible idea. Pet's natural Accuracy and Attack should be boosted directly first before adding higher tier mochi, and after that Mochi should only be for supplemental purposes like when you are in high level group content. By only giving the necessary accuracy/attack for high level content through food, players who can't afford this food are going to be unable to participate on pet jobs simply because they don't have enough gil, when if they played a standard damage dealer job, they could essentially get those necessary accuracy buffs for free. In summary, pet jobs should be able to hit high level content without them necessarily using food, otherwise you're creating a dependency on another costly item to participate in high level group content... I think Beastmaster paying for jugs, dawn mulsims, and reward as well as all the other pet jobs paying for these similar items is costly enough.

*Call Beast Adjustments - The fact that the development team keeps adding new pets as a way to supplement for damage dealing issues for beastmaster is silly to me. Instead of adding new pets, the development team should simply get rid of the level caps on all jugs. There are over 30+ useful pets that beastmaster has access to but are useless only because the level cap. By getting rid of it, beastmaster would have a larger variety of pets it'd have access to so that they can use different pets depending on the situation while also making it so that every time the development team increases the level cap, beastmaster doesn't need a new pet implemented. I do believe that more pets should be implemented for beastmaster, but I also believe that all the other pets such as tigers, cactaurs, mandrigoras, etc. should not die off at the same rate.


A lot of the ideas the development team has for pets jobs is a good start, but after playing FFXi for over 10 years, I'm beginning to notice that the development team has a hard time implementing fixes that actually have positive long term effects. For example, Mochi (pet food) is great, but if the game goes on for another 2~5 years, and the level cap increases again, then pet jobs will be in the same place that we were before with accuracy issues then they'll have to add another high tier mochi. What we need are fixes that resolves the issue forever, and not something that just helps for a year then we're back in the same place we started. I hate to beat a dead horse, but if they would simply just allow the original suggestion of this thread to be implemented, most of the problems pet jobs have would be alleviated, but the game developers are beating around the bush still trying to figure out a overly complicated way to temporarily resolve our issues, which ironically will create more issues.

I agree, vote up^^ A buff of 25% acc would do pet jobs wonders (Since run wild is not being adjusted).

I actually like the idea of dd-oriented pets. Alot of the older jugs are dated, as it pertains to their dd capabilities. Hobs and NN (And they are both beast :( ) will be the only serviceable dd, but the kahmir sheep should be superior to her. The Sabotender has 1k needles; 1k dmg was a big deal back in the day, but most pets easily surpass 1k dmg moves. Unless they plan on giving the coeurl, sabotender, beetle, etc with their recent native abilities, SE might as well released newer pets.

I mean, the difference between sharp strike/death scissors and any Xerin (Cahpuli) ability is huge. A wivre would trump any capped lizard jug we have in the dd department. An uncapped gooey gerad would not fly in this day and age; its' moves are all debuffs. A sandworm would be a more potent amorph. The leech took reduced blunt damage, but no-one invites us to tank and he was a sub-par dd. A scorpion is vastly superior to any capped vermin. Also, Ruszors would must likely beat out any capped aquan (Mostly crabs, anyway).

I am all in on your sentiments and new pets^^

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Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP

A lot of the ideas the development team has for pets jobs is a good start, but after playing FFXi for over 10 years, I'm beginning to notice that the development team has a hard time implementing fixes that actually have positive long term effects. For example, Mochi (pet food) is great, but if the game goes on for another 2~5 years, and the level cap increases again, then pet jobs will be in the same place that we were before with accuracy issues then they'll have to add another high tier mochi. What we need are fixes that resolves the issue forever, and not something that just helps for a year then we're back in the same place we started. I hate to beat a dead horse, but if they would simply just allow the original suggestion of this thread to be implemented, most of the problems pet jobs have would be alleviated, but the game developers are beating around the bush still trying to figure out a overly complicated way to temporarily resolve our issues, which ironically will create more issues.

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Yes. This, thank you! That's the biggest problem with using food with pet stats and jugs to fix our problems. We need the devs to adjust the baselines for these jobs - not just add gear and items to sort of half fix problems. I really think that simply removing level caps from jugs and making beast affinity add levels over the base item level would do wonders. Then BST would always have a pet 10 levels above the highest current ilevel, and our pets could actually hit things maybe, and hit them half decently hard. Right now my underskilled banish on whm does more damage to yumcax than my pet... that's broken.

I'd like to see all gear that pup/bst/smn/drg can wear include pet stats. Don't take away stats from the master so that we can have them for pets. We should be able to wear same strength gear as everyone else WITH stats for our pets. Our pets are part of our base damage. No other jobs have 15-60+% of their damage dealing capabilities unbuffed by gear or magic. Why should we? Realistically it would be best if all gear stats simply applied to pets then SE could get rid of pet+ stats altogether. We know that is not going to happen though so at the very least we need a WIDE ARRAY of gear with +pet stats on it, and that gear should not be sacrificing stats for the master to make it work.

And I am so mad that SE missed the opportunity afforded by the wildskeeper augment system to offer pet jobs a chance to add pet stats to their DD gear. Every crest should have had 1 pet stat available... most people would not have used it, sure, but would have been nice for those of us who like to play pet jobs. We really have no gear options that are half decent for pet and master - gosh would have been nice to add +3% pet haste or something to my otomi helm...

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Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP

This comment was extremely vague but it sounds as though the development team is considering revamping the maneuver system but exactly what they are doing is up to interpretation... Extending maneuver duration or allowing us to use more than 3 maneuvers so that we can activate more attachments at a time are all possibilities, but I strongly doubt that they would do either of those things.

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I believe all that Camate is saying is that with all the ws's being equal in strength it won't be as vital that we have the right maneuvers up to trigger the one good ws, instead we can focus on maneuvers that enhance our attachments.

Thump. I'd like more details on plans to improve pet jobs.

Simple fix that fixes the actual issues and therefore wont need another patch in a few weeks is either allowing at least partial transfer of stats and/or letting pt/AoE buffs hit pets. As well as uncapping pets so we actually have a selection. Which has been said a billion times and needs to be done. Random pet food just fills the gap for a time maybe same with adjusting the jugs occasional and occasionally giving us new ones.

It has to be incredible Olor I will tell you that^^

Perhaps the August update will address pet jobs, they are prepping for the July update, so basically, Sams, rngs, and mnks will be the golden children for at least another month, perhaps longer XD.

I have been asking for an update that ends our agony and finally puts us in a good place, but others attacked the post and loved the mini-fixes. It would be ideal if this update fixed our current issues. Sure $hit happens and the future and adjustments must be made, but our issues can be fixed now. I am not implying that bst, pup, or drg will be perfect jobs til the end of XI, but rather, right now. Boost us so we can compete right now. The mini fixes are baffling to me; we all know the obstacles pet jobs face, lets address them. I mean damn, it took one update to break sams XD; how about one update that fixes us^^

I am particularly interested in the ready move boost. Bst pet's have a plethora of issues, notably acc, attack and ready move dmg. If the ready move boost is extremely potent, I could deal with our current guys. However, i highly doubt that sweeping gouge, headbutt, or any chapuli move can even reach 5k on endgame crap. Droopy rarely breaks 3k in ARII from my personal experience.

Honestly, I do not believe an extra 1 or 2k to ready move dmg would help us, considering the ready meter restrictions. It has to be substantial imo,other dds are not only doing great ws dmg, but skillchaining as-well. I still believe that beast affinity should be a master and pet skillchain XD. That merit category makes absolutely no sense. The gloves and merits should probably increase damage by 2 percent each merit or something. Also, we are the only job that require players to level the pet, not only that, but we do not have access to every pet faimily. Bst is also the only pet job whom merits do not directly effect the pet's dmg output. Imo, the update has to to be pretty amazing to fix bst. Ready moves are only one aspect of the jug; it has to hit the mob to achieve 1000 tp, but those hits are extremely weak and inaccurate. Imo, the pet may have to equate or surpass the master as it pertains to normal attacks and ws damage. No one will invite a bst because we can receive food, songs, or protect; mnks, rngs, and sams will still have an edge as it pertains to dd output and/or skillchain damage. We need an update that will fix our current issues once and for all; akin to the one update that caused these necessary adjustments.

With the recent weaponskill update, bst could receive everything the OP mentioned and still be a sub-par dd. Ready moves are fairly weak in general, regardless of how much attack/acc you stack. Bst needs something much more drastic imo, times have changed. Bard songs, protect, and food will not compete with 20k weaponskills plus skillchain dmg. Mnks can even repetitively chain with one another in delve crap. Jugs need a re-haul; capped or 119; our jugs are horrible regardless.

Also, as it pertains to uncapping jugs, I would it would be awesome if we could receive some stronger past jugs in their native forms. A hippo that could fantod > hoof volley like those hippos in the past would be pretty sweet and doable. Perhaps put it on a proc system; with a decent rate. Our past jugs were awesome on paper, just not in jug form. Too many missing abilities.

I am sort of glad sams broke $hit, perhaps this will be a turning point for pet jobs. They thought we would be broken with powerful pets until sams came along wrecking havoc now we all need updates; even wars, damn XD.

Can we get eminent pet food also.Thanks

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Originally Posted by Railer

Can we get eminent pet food also.Thanks

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This. If every other job that uses consumbles can get them for free with sparks, we should be able to get jugs and pet food too.

It's also hard not to get frustrated when the new attachments finally come out and they are craft only and require an item that is in demand for other uses.

Vanir battery is sitting around 3m, and crafters have set the price of the new attachments to 3m-4m despite the x3 yield.

So the answer is food that only barely brings automatons into the range where they should be? Great, we get to pay even more gil to sort of be viable?

That's not even considering the various methods of losing food effects requiring you to use more expensive food.

Can we have some more quests to upgrade the automaton frames?

Some upgraded heads that have better AI? Such as being able to deploy ranged/caster autos well outside AoE.

Or really any of the stuff that Shinron has suggested.

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Originally Posted by Moppet

It's also hard not to get frustrated when the new attachments finally come out and they are craft only and require an item that is in demand for other uses.

Vanir battery is sitting around 3m, and crafters have set the price of the new attachments to 3m-4m despite the x3 yield.

So the answer is food that only barely brings automatons into the range where they should be? Great, we get to pay even more gil to sort of be viable?

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Yeah I haven't taken out my PUP in ages because it's frustrating enough playing one entirely broken job, and PUP requires SO MUCH GIL and at the end of it... sadness as it simply isn't desirable in almost any content.... So my PUP, while 99, is really not geared up and skilled up because I can't do that to myself. SE really needs to give pet jobs a break from single-handedly maintaining the crafting economy. Sometimes it feels like we're just about the only jobs that make crafters rich anymore.

The only gil I spend on my PUP is the materials for reforging, and since sparks come so slow I've been able to spread it out. (it isn't just crafters making a killing here)
I only bought a few stacks of Shiromochi and Akamochi out of curiosity but really don't have a use for them solo. (Maybe I should tackle a VE AA ... it sure didn't help me in Doh gates -_- )
I haven't bothered to buy the new attachments. Why spend that much on a job that can't participate in anything?
But yeah, if you are new to the job and trying to catch up, I can't imagine. Though I noticed that with attachments floating up in flotsam now, a lot of stuff has gone down in price.

Although Puppetmaster has been getting a lot of reworking over the last few years like the complete overhaul of the mage frame's AI, Puppetmaster is still a pretty undesired job even after sinking a lot of money into it like Mitruya, Olor, and Moppet have said already. I mean I have literally every item a puppetmaster could want: Kenkonken (mythic), Verethragna, All attachments, all reforged sets, and honestly I still cannot keep up with the demand of high level content these days. I will say that damage wise I can usually keep up with the monks or even out DD them depending on the person, but damage isn't so much the issue for the master in comparison to survival.

The "master" component of Puppetmaster, a lot like the masters of other pet jobs, can damage deal fairly well, but simply just miss the defensive capabilities of normal classes like Monk's counterstance and or high HP that help them stay alive while monsters are spamming deadly AoEs. I believe that with pet jobs, there is slightly a little bit too much emphasis on Job abilities that focus simply on the survival of the pet rather than both the master and the pet. Puppetmaster does not have a single ability that helps to keep the master alive, so we're essentially Damage dealing like any other job can but without all of the survival capabilities, which is useless if you end up getting floored in the first two minutes of fighting a high level content monster. Honestly this is the story of my life when playing Puppetmaster in delve. I always end up tanking because no one can keep up with my damage, but I end up floored in the next couple of minutes because of my small HP pool and lack of defense and job abilities that could mitigate some of the damage.

Another concern that makes the survival of the master difficult ties to the stigma around pet jobs. A lot of the time if I show up to delve on my Puppetmaster, because most players assume that most pet jobs players are pretty useless, most of the white mages will prioritize curing me last over one of the more "essential" jobs like Monk although I'm tanking and dealing more damage than they are. Unfortunately this isn't something that the developement team can directly fix, but I think it's only fair that they make it easier for us to survive on our own granted we have a lot of difficulties getting help from our party members.


If the masters of pet jobs could get access to similiar defensive capabilities that standard damage dealers have, I believe that would partly solve some of our issues we face in high level content.

Another problem that Puppetmaster is currently facing right now is the fact that our Automatons are getting outdated as the game progresses. Automatons at 99 (before Ilvl gear and 119) were a pretty decent reflection of the 99 version of the job that they were geared as, but now with the introduction of 119 armor, all of our automatons have fallen behind damage wise comparatively.

The pet that I would like to emphasis is Black mage (Spirit Reaver). This pet has fallen behind for multiple reasons, but the biggest problem is the AI. The blackmage frame has a static timer for when each spells can be used that can amount to the frame casting elemental magic at the least every 15 seconds or so. However sometimes you can be waiting for up to 30 seconds or more for one elemental spell. Standard Black Mages have already been angry about the static 2~3 second wait between each elemental magic spell that has lowered their dps considerably, so when thinking about only casting every 15 seconds, the black mage frames dps seems pretty undesirable. Literally the only way to fix Mage Automaton's AI so that it can actually be of some use in fast paced battle fields is to allow us to have manual execution of magic spells which in other words would mean allowing us to pick the spells our automatons can use out of a magic list similar to how Black Mage can. The automaton could still function on its own the same way it does now, but allowing us to control when and what its next spell is would put this frame back on the map. Magic manual execution for automatons isn't a foreign idea. The development team actually said that they planned to look into doing this about three years ago, but suddenly any information related to this disappeared. I posted their comment some time back in this thread, but I can do it again if people would like to see it.

By addings manual execution, it would allow Puppetmasters to actually use our frames in a more strategic way during group content rather than us hoping that the next spell our pet casts is a cure rather than slow, when we're about to die. This would also make it easier to cast desired spells without having certain maneuvers up. We could even get a larger array of spells such as gravity, bind, and even the new ones like flurry, frazzle, and distract that would allow us to be a desired job when needing a debuffer.

Thank you for your thorough and well-written posts, that explain things so much better than I can.
That being said, I'm jealous you get to go to anything as PUP. ;p
I'd been wondering if I got all the things you already have would it make a difference; it doesn't sound like it. I've been slacking on farming gil and sparks to finish the reforging, 'cause all I'd really get is a new (old) costume.

Out of curiosity, do all you PUPs know of and use ADD (Activate-Deploy-Deactivate) with your mage puppets? It's a really handy trick that SE thankfully never took away from us... possibly because taking it away would totally kill the utility of mage frames and screw us royally, and they know PUP is still at the bottom of the heap. I'm just wondering how many new PUPs are aware of it.

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Originally Posted by Mitruya

Thank you for your thorough and well-written posts, that explain things so much better than I can.
That being said, I'm jealous you get to go to anything as PUP. ;p
I'd been wondering if I got all the things you already have would it make a difference; it doesn't sound like it. I've been slacking on farming gil and sparks to finish the reforging, 'cause all I'd really get is a new (old) costume.

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I do participate in all end game content on Puppetmaster, but I don't think it has anything to do with my gear. It's probably because I create my own groups for things like delve and I also refuse to play any other job but the one I like. I think any Puppetmaster, including you, is capable of playing the job in whatever content, but you just have to be willing to create your own groups and deal with your shortcomings as a damage dealer in comparison to just simply having a monk. The sad truth is that no gear currently in the game for Puppetmaster can really fix those shortcomings. I'd say that the only piece of armor for puppetmaster that is a game changer is the mythic hand-to-hand Kenkonken because it allows you to essentially use maneuvers as much as you want without the worry and need for gear swapping in overload reduction gear. Cooldown and overload reduction gear does eliminate the worry of overloading to some extent, but the mythic makes it so that it's essentially impossible to overload. Other than kenkonken, really the game play for a Puppetmaster without fancy gear is about the same that of one with excellent armor. Attachments play a large role of course in playing style, but most attachments except for like damage gauge, armor plates, and barrier module, you can survive without. Other attachments are useful but they don't dramatically change Puppetmaster however. So long story short, there's nothing we can do at the moment to allow us to be viable options in high level content. We simply just need a update to maneuver mechanics, pet survival, master survival, attachments, automaton AI, along with a couple other issues.

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Originally Posted by Puck

Out of curiosity, do all you PUPs know of and use ADD (Activate-Deploy-Deactivate) with your mage puppets? It's a really handy trick that SE thankfully never took away from us... possibly because taking it away would totally kill the utility of mage frames and screw us royally, and they know PUP is still at the bottom of the heap. I'm just wondering how many new PUPs are aware of it.

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I believe some Puppetmasters are aware of DAD but i'm not sure if all are. Back at 75 using DAD was a necessity because it would take years for our black mage automaton to cast a nuke, so it would be easier to reset it so that it would nuke faster. I actually still do that today because the blackmage auto takes forever to nuke still. DAD is and was definitely a better way to regenerate the MP pool because using Mana converter and Economizer had its risks of overload and losing HP. I think the possible reason why DAD has not been removed is because your pet must be at 100% HP in order for you to use the technique which can be extremely difficult to maintain when you're facing NMs that spam poison and other AoEs. Also they haven't abolished it because they don't want the activate timer to automatically reset to 20 minutes if your pet despawns when you zone somewhere, otherwise it would put us at a disadvantage when we enter a battlefield. I'm also curious if players are aware of the uses of ventriloquy. If a monster aggros you, as long as you don't touch it you can use ventriloquy and deactivate to despawn it. I usually do that any time I aggro something that I can't handle like a strong NM. A lot of the tricks like DAD essentially giving you infinite MP is why I fell in love with Puppetmaster to begin with because it was one of the few jobs that could exceed limitations that standard jobs faced. Unfortunately a lot of those tricks like DAD and Ventriloquy got nurfed and people aren't aware that they existed at one point.

Yes, I know of Ventriloquy and DAD, and thank you for your thoughts and comments.

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Originally Posted by Puck

Out of curiosity, do all you PUPs know of and use ADD (Activate-Deploy-Deactivate) with your mage puppets? It's a really handy trick that SE thankfully never took away from us... possibly because taking it away would totally kill the utility of mage frames and screw us royally, and they know PUP is still at the bottom of the heap. I'm just wondering how many new PUPs are aware of it.

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Yep, I'm aware of it. I still use it in special cases or to refresh MP when needed. Most of the content now includes a heavy amount of AoEs though, so it's considerably less useful.

I would kill for an AI change or JA that made mage autos run -away- from the target to it's maximum casting range. >.<

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Originally Posted by Moppet

Yep, I'm aware of it. I still use it in special cases or to refresh MP when needed. Most of the content now includes a heavy amount of AoEs though, so it's considerably less useful.

I would kill for an AI change or JA that made mage autos run -away- from the target to it's maximum casting range. >.<

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I've always liked the idea of giving automatons a stance that means they're engaged to you, rather than a monster, faster recast times for cures, enhancing magic and forcing them to stand 20" away from you, and not 19" away from the target, at all times.

For the RDM frame, this would stop it doing crappy nukes.

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Originally Posted by Balloon

I've always liked the idea of giving automatons a stance that means they're engaged to you

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Do you mean allowing a Automaton to be engaged outside of battle? I tried to suggest this a long time ago in the puppetmaster forums as a means of allowing our pets to buff us outside of battle. It seems sort of illogical to have access to protect, shell, haste, and stoneskin, but not be able to put it on until you're in the middle of fighting. Either a job ability that makes our pets use buffs outside of battle or allowing them to naturally use buffs outside of battle similar to adventuring fellows would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Balloon

forcing them to stand 20" away from you, and not 19" away from the target, at all times.

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I would really like to see the development team allow our mage frames and Ranger pet to be engaged farther away from enemies. Right now it's difficult to engage our pets outside of AoE range especially because they keep extending the radius of AoEs of certain enemies which can be disruptive when you're trying to use DAD (deactive-Activate-Deactivate). Although it might seem weird, extending deploy and casting range for automatons to a distance like 25~30 yalms away I think would be fair especially because it's harder for us to constantly re-position our pets like normal players can to avoid staying out of AoE range. This would also eliminate the struggle between what range of deploy your pet will run in to fight and what range of deploy your pet will stand still.