[Dev 1009] Force Pop HNM's FTW

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read the update notes , makes bb items harder to get

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Hwat? No it didn't, you're being extremely creative. We won't know if it's harder to get until after the update. /thread

Nobody takes you seriously rambus...

after every dev update topic you run around like chicken little

"THE SKY IS FALLING >:U!!"

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Originally Posted by Rambus

read the update notes , makes bb items harder to get

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Lol, okay

They lowered Drop rate on HQ (We don't know how much, For all we know it could be from 100%, to 90%) This Lowers it a little. its an Unknown

They Removed it from NQ Kings - I've already suggested this was a bad move, needs to be fixed/Adjusted ASAP, It was Backpedaling the entire ordeal. However, Now being forced to do KSNM99 (Which Drop BB Items, a Step anyone camping would never have taken), You have really lost nothing. Instead of your chance of BB form NQ, your chance of BB is from KSNM99. - This makes it a little more difficult. Slightly.

But heres the kicker, Instead of 1 Shot per day, You have the potential for Dozens of chances per day. If you have the Seals/Friends You can pop Fafnir 8 Times back to back, then pop Nidhogg ~8 Times back to back, Increases your chances to get a BB items exponentially.

Really, Until we know how drastic the Nerf to HQ Kings drop rate was, You can pretty much Think "KSNM99 = Old Faf, Chance of BB item" > "Fafnir - Middle-Ground mob. Drops stuff" > "Nidhogg - Highest chance of BB item"

They basically added a step in the process, but multiplied your ability to pop/fight the mobs exponentially.

You really in the end lose absolutely nothing unless you're sitting on like 20 Kindred Seals, In which case Yeah you're behind, But the other thousands of players in the game who are sitting on 500+ Kindred seals all now have MULTIPLE opportunities to pop/Fight these NMs.

So to poke the hole in your logic, yes, some people are still left out (Oh shit, I've mentioned this 1000 times before), however, There are far far far far far less people left out in this System then the old system.

Read what i wrote above, then read this. In the old System 1-Group. 1-NM. 1 Chance. per day.

new System. Multiple People, Multiple NMs, Multiple Chances. Per day.

Its not that hard of a concept to grasp. If you look at it from the point of view of "1 Person doing 1 Run" yeah, Your chances are slimmer, but if you look at it as "Multiple People all doing multiple pops" The chances are greater, The influx of BB items will multiply, Rather it be selling them, Or people with a lot of Kindred Seals collecting multiple pop-items and popping them back-to-back.

It benefits more people, and it gives more chances to obtain said item.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Hwat? No it didn't, you're being extremely creative. We won't know if it's harder to get until after the update. /thread

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the current update notes makes it harder to get the egg esp, people be spaming KB for D ring im sure.

think about hwat the update notes say, so we are here to comment and tell SE wait think about this a second insted of OMG FORCE POP = GOOD.

as far as ffxiv goes, they ingored people and floped, wow who did not see that comming?

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

i swear at one point i read the idea of someone suggesting force-pop Kings, and it being met with open praise. Now that we got it, its the same crying. It goes to show no matter what SE Does, people will always complain.

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Because you only see what you want to see. People wanted pop-Kings for their black belt nothing else. The next system will be about the same as the previous KS99 system with a slighty increase in chance to get it. It's right to cock block that much through KS99 for items like defending ring, but not for the item 1/6th of the population wants. I find all the reactions like "you wanted pop kind now you got it" dumb because if you look at it's a +1 version of the fail KS99 system. Before the next VU : 1500KS to get a black belt, post VU .. 1K ? And your friends want a black belt too. And your friends could have lend you 4M for a BB too., and guess what they could ALSO have lend you 99KS for the current system ?

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Originally Posted by Rambus

the current update notes makes it harder to get the egg esp, people be spaming KB for D ring im sure.

think about hwat the update notes say, so we are here to comment and tell SE wait think about this a second insted of OMG FORCE POP = GOOD.

as far as ffxiv goes, they ingored people and floped, wow who did not see that comming?

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conceited much?

you are hardly representative of the ffxi community

When you look at it, you have two shots to get the BB items, from the KSNM and from the pop also, people get a better chance at the DEFENDING RING and not to mention the Riddle.

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

conceited much?

you are hardly representative of the ffxi community

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you are right, I know how to think and analyze.

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Originally Posted by Miera

When you look at it, you have two shots to get the BB items, from the KSNM and from the pop also, people get a better chance at the DEFENDING RING and not to mention the Riddle.

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you get 2 chances with it now, go camp it then go pop the ksnm 99, cept you have greater chance if you get claim ( higher drop rate from NQ/HQ) and you do not know the drop rate of HQ pop under the new system, that is never stated.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

you are right, I know how to think and analyze.

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No You don't. Please do not lie to people on these forums. You know how to be Negative and Analyze everything in an incredibly short-sighted way. You think only about how bad something is in regards to how it'll benefit you. Not how it will benefit as a whole.

The fact I've been trying to explain to you that old system = 1 pop per day, for only 1 person/group on the entire server.

While new system = Multiple People can pop the NM multiple times per day. Its looking at the "Big Picture".


you can't seem to grasp that is proof enough you can't analyze anything. I at least admit flaws in the system, You seem to act like its 3 steps back into the pits of hell. Its not a perfect leap into the right area, but its a Small step in the right direction. It needs Tweaking, It needs improvements, But right now its a better system than the old one, even if its not by much, its a Lesser of Two Evils that will, in the big picture, Increase the flow of Items from these NMs.

Wow so much RAGE in this thread. Key things you guys need to remember, we don't know if it will be easier or harder to get the BB items til its actually implemented. All we know is it will be a pop NMs now, NQ kings don't drop the item and have a unknown % chance to drop the item to pop the HQ king, HQ kings no longer drop it 100% of the time, and the KS99 might drop more then 1 pop item for the NQ king. The chance to get the items needed to HQ can be 1%-99% while the same can be said about the BB items themselves. Saying that they will be easier/harder is your guess at whats gonna happen. Other then the eventual flood of people wanting Dring, the rest is just speculation on your guys part.

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Originally Posted by Denabond

Wow so much RAGE in this thread. Key things you guys need to remember, we don't know if it will be easier or harder to get the BB items til its actually implemented. All we know is it will be a pop NMs now, NQ kings don't drop the item and have a unknown % chance to drop the item to pop the HQ king, HQ kings no longer drop it 100% of the time, and the KS99 might drop more then 1 pop item for the NQ king. The chance to get the items needed to HQ can be 1%-99% while the same can be said about the BB items themselves. Saying that they will be easier/harder is your guess at whats gonna happen. Other then the eventual flood of people wanting Dring, the rest is just speculation on your guys part.

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I've already tried to explain the "Unknown Element". It didn't work. Assuming the worst is all a negative person can do.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

you get 2 chances with it now, go camp it then go pop the ksnm 99, cept you have greater chance if you get claim ( higher drop rate from NQ/HQ) and you do not know the drop rate of HQ pop under the new system, that is never stated.

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The system now is not two chances for everyone. It is 1 chance server wide for whoever claims that day with a separate chance for those those who have KS lying about. New system = multiple chances for EVERYONE not too lazy to farm seals or to team up.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

The fact I've been trying to explain to you that old system = 1 pop per day, for only 1 person/group on the entire server.

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Did you voluntarerly skip the part where you can do KS99 whenever you want too, RIGHT NOW ? So it is DEFINITELY not one shot at a given BB item per day per server. If you are neglecting the KS99 part today why would it become not negligeable in the future ?

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Originally Posted by Henihhi

The system now is not two chances for everyone. It is 1 chance server wide for whoever claims that day with a separate chance for those those who have KS lying about. New system = multiple chances for EVERYONE not too lazy to farm seals or to team up.

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Like the current system of KS99, facepalm.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Like the current system of KS99, facepalm.

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except current system doesn't drop the old kings gear in ks99 ;o

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Did you voluntarerly skip the part where you can do KS99 whenever you want too, RIGHT NOW ? So it is DEFINITELY not one shot at a given BB item per day per server. If you are neglecting the KS99 part today why would it become not negligeable in the future ?

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Except THe entire discussion until 2 posts ago from Rambus has Been only regarding the HNMs.

So yah, I've never once made an argument about the KSNM99 system being not currently available. Did i? Maybe you misread something. I don't ever remember saying "KSNM99s don't offer a chance". Strangely enough my Entire argument so far has been in regards to how the HNMs work, Not the KSNM99's. So, Why are you guys suddenly bringing the KSNM99's into this?

Anyway, Have fun with that imaginary argument. I'll continue discussing how this is an Improvement to the HNM system like i have been this entire time. I know the current KSNM99 system still offers you a chance at what you want, But I was under the impression i was arguing that this is an Improvement over Old-HNM-World spawns, Not the KSNM99 System.

You are talking alone in your little corner I think because the main concern of 99% of the posters are not fighting HnMs but getting a black belt. I've seen you use the same argument about 1 chance vs multiple chance several pages ago, and I just destroyed it. You are using semantic, that's it. But go on discussiing with the other idiot, please.

So in your opinion, how much is it increasing the number of BB item chance per day on the overall server ? Here is my guess. Most of the BB seekers of today don't have KS because they have tried to get it already (nor their friends obviously), OR, they just don't have any. Before this was announced, why would you sit over 1K KS if actively seeking a BB seing as those KSNM are jokes at 90 ? No reason really.

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cept you have greater chance if you get claim

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This System, He can do the KSNM99, Now he went from 0% Chance at the item he wants (Didn't claim!) to a small chance from the KSNM, as well as apop for the NQ. His Chances just went up a lot.

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Based on information we have and not speculation about drop rate changes to KSNM the chance has not changed. It looks that it was deliberately designed to keep the incoming flow of black belts to the server the same. Claim only factors odds for person who claimed, NQ doesn't drop post update, and KSNM already dropped before update.

Now would you both stop this pointless arguing? SE doesn't care which of you posts last and you sure aren't going to change each others minds.

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Originally Posted by GlobalVariable

Based on information we have and not speculation about drop rate changes to KSNM the chance has not changed. It looks that it was deliberately designed to keep the incoming flow of black belts to the server the same. Claim only factors odds for person who claimed, NQ doesn't drop post update, and KSNM already dropped before update.

Now would you both stop this pointless arguing? SE doesn't care which of you posts last and you sure aren't going to change each others minds.

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Well, Black Belt items stay the same, Every other drop from HNM/Kings becomes easier. This makes it a step in the right direction, Regardless :D!

I'm not sure if I missed it or something or it wasn't said, is there a chance of you getting the NQ or HQ or do you have a choice to pick popping the HQ? I must have missed that somewhere

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Except THe entire discussion until 2 posts ago from Rambus has Been only regarding the HNMs.

So yah, I've never once made an argument about the KSNM99 system being not currently available. Did i? Maybe you misread something. I don't ever remember saying "KSNM99s don't offer a chance". Strangely enough my Entire argument so far has been in regards to how the HNMs work, Not the KSNM99's. So, Why are you guys suddenly bringing the KSNM99's into this?

Anyway, Have fun with that imaginary argument. I'll continue discussing how this is an Improvement to the HNM system like i have been this entire time. I know the current KSNM99 system still offers you a chance at what you want, But I was under the impression i was arguing that this is an Improvement over Old-HNM-World spawns, Not the KSNM99 System.

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wrong, you completely ignored me when i bought it up, and i did several times.

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Originally Posted by Miera

I'm not sure if I missed it or something or it wasn't said, is there a chance of you getting the NQ or HQ or do you have a choice to pick popping the HQ? I must have missed that somewhere

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notes say this, do ksnm 99 get a pop item for NQ, a chance of getting more then one.

fight NQ, no chance of BB item, a chance of dropping HQ item

HQ lower drop rate for bb item

Ohhhh~! Yeah I see it now. I'm one of those people who have to read it twice/three times for the info to sink in. ><

Obviously Markov cannot read. The current system as it stands this moment is the ks99/claim kings systems. My god if you are going to quote me at least have a little understanding of what is going on. Next time i will be sure to only use little words so you people that claim to speak for the masses can comprehend. Oops- i used a big word. Current system = ONE server wide chance to claim for ONE chance for ONE person at a black belt item per day. So on a server of say 2500 people, that is 1/2500 chance at a bb item for ONE person per server. Yes you can do ks99 for more chances, but with abyssea fever,not many can be bothered to do that.

Now SE comes along and says HAI GAIZ MORE KINGS FOR EVERYONE who goes out and farms KSes. This is bad how exactly?

I am coming to the understanding that most posters in these forums either have an IQ below retarded, or are just so stuck on immediate gratification they cannot grasp anything outside the little bubble of their own screen,doritoes, mountain dew, and their piss bottle.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

You are talking alone in your little corner I think because the main concern of 99% of the posters are not fighting HnMs but getting a black belt. I've seen you use the same argument about 1 chance vs multiple chance, and I just destroyed it. You are using semantic, that's it. But go on discussiing with the other idiot, please.

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You crack me up man.

My argument form point 1 has been In regards to how this is an Improvement over old HNM system, not an Improvement to anything relating to KSNM99s.

Right now, Regardless of your fail logic or Fail arguments, In regards to the HNM scenario, One person had a chance to kill said HNM once per day. This includes all Loot from said NM, Up to and including the Black Belt items.

Optional options have always been there, Such as KSNM99s. I however do find it hard to believe someone could be camping the HNM, and doing KSNM99s for longer than a month and not have a Black Belt. Thats another argument.

When this System Rolls around. People will be able to Kill said HNMs multiple times if they have seals. While some people do not have seals, It opens up a wider array of people who will be able to pop and Kill these HNMs, as in the long run chances are more than 1 of these NMs will be killed per day, More than the old system allowed.

Its not a Perfect Solution, and as GlobalVariable pointed out, Since we don't know how much the Nerf of HQ Kings was, or the Drop rate of HQ King-Pop items. We must assume It will Remain Equal for Black Belt Items. However other Items dropped from Said NMs will still be Available, Those not from KSNM99s. So in a way its a small improvement to those after things other than BB Items.

I never suggested its a perfect system Pchan, I only recognize its an effort, and step, in the correct Direction. Even if its small.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

wrong, you completely ignored me when i bought it up, and i did several times.

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I'd ask you to prove where you said anything regarding "KSNM99s" and not "Kings" but you've edited your posts So much it'd be a moot point. Cause i could swear to god this entire time we've been discussing how this update effects HNMs and their drops, not KSNM99s.

In that Case, I'll make it very clear what my intentions were.

My argument has been, and will remain, This System is an Improvement over Old-Camping Kings. My argument has never been about currently Doing KSNM99s, or how they meld with Ground Kings pre-Update.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

My argument has been, and will remain, This System is an Improvement over Old-Camping Kings. My argument has never been about currently Doing KSNM99s, or how they meld with Ground Kings pre-Update.

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if they said you need 500 ks to start the chain would you still be saying this? I started talking about this is because i do not accpet polished turds. it may let people fight kings more but who cares? well maybe some do, I don't.

All I am saying is this:

KSNMs will be spammed for D ring.

Egg rarely drops from KSNM but beard drops like candy.

that alone should show, "hey this new system makes it harder to get egg", and they are lowering drop rates on top of that!

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Well, Black Belt items stay the same, Every other drop from HNM/Kings becomes easier. This makes it a step in the right direction, Regardless :D!

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Yeah I'm at least happy more people can be able to fight an HQ land king, something that never happened before for most. Sucks that BB just got harder for me personally but at least its just the randomness+usual not having members to help and not a claiming tool user or the fact I have to sleep. I still think someone at SE made popcorn before posting the announcement. And just wait, lv 96 or 98 belt that obsoletes it and the wonderful flurry of posts that come with it.

The attitude some posters have that amounts so saying not perfectly happy just wants gear handed to them is more irritating than any unpleasantness of the update. I'm deterred from saying anything because everyone gets lumped together into a "side" on it ya'know? Why's that happen so much anyway... /grumble

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Originally Posted by Rambus

1) if they said you need 500 ks to start the chain would you still be saying this? I started talking about this is because i do not accpet polished turds. it may let people fight kings more but who cares? well maybe some do, I don't.

All I am saying is this:

KSNMs will be spammed for D ring.

2) Egg rarely drops from KSNM but beard drops like candy.

that alone should show, "hey this new system makes it harder to get egg", and they are lowering drop rates on top of that!

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1) No, thats Stupid, Are you just going to make up insane out-of-context Situations to push your argument now? This is irrelevant because they're not doing that. If they did requite 500KS i would be against it because its insane.

2)You keep Bringing up the Egg. Doesn't the Egg have the same drop rate from KSNM as all the other ones do? Wiki isn't reliable but it lists Ada Egg as 17%, Wyrm beard as 21%, and Behemoth Tongue as 26%. Doesn't seem like that bad of a Spread.

If you want the Egg, You use your seals to get your Egg. I bet you'll get it if you try. I'm sure you can find help. You have (Theoretically) the same chance to get the egg in this update as you do Tongue, and Beard. You just chose your path.

People who want BB will be doing all three, True more people will be doing KB for Defending Ring, But it won't effect your game-play. If thats all your after, Thats all you need to do.


On a Side note.

I feel like i should mention this again, I don't think this is the perfect solution, i don't think its the best solution, But as it stands I believe this is a step in the right direction, Even if its small, Even if it only helps you get XItem and not Y Item. I've admitted countless times I think the System needs a lot of improvements before it can be perfected. But i also think it'll help more people in the long run. It won't help everyone, Nothing is perfect, but i think it will help more people.

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Originally Posted by GlobalVariable

Snipit

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They did mention wanting to release something that out-dates Black Belt. I'll giggle when it comes out.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Don't think you can obsolete black belt or at least the next one will required you to trade black belt before hands, if you follow the previous quests logic.

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In an interview a While ago they mentioned "not wanting to make Black Belt Easier to obtain, but create something better for monks to use." Something like that.

Who knows, We'll SEE!

Don't think you can obsolete black belt or at least the next one will require you to trade black belt beforehands, if you follow the previous quests logic. Best things that can happen is that with the level increase you get 2 more haste on the 5 visible slots making tiwlight the best for DD but black belt still has pretty awesome stats beside haste.

You know the next belt with either be crazy pain in the rear to obtain, or will leave every black belt owner raging, or just not good enough to use over black belt/be a swap piece.

I bet you'd have to go through many meaningless annoying Trials of the Magians Trials to upgrade you BB into a Black Belt +1

Must fight Maat 20 times and collect 100 said ammount of these Items that is Rare/Ex and kill a million of these mobs in such weather.

Or they will simply make it so you augment Black Belt through Synergy.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

2)You keep Bringing up the Egg. Doesn't the Egg have the same drop rate from KSNM as all the other ones do? Wiki isn't reliable but it lists Ada Egg as 17%, Wyrm beard as 21%, and Behemoth Tongue as 26%. Doesn't seem like that bad of a Spread.

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NO! egg is a B*** to get. I used 2 pops for it, farmed it with others, 20-30 times see 2 drops. beard is like drop every other and i do not care about tongue because people will spam it for Dring.

trying to attempt 99 seals for egg with its drop rates is too much, now you see my point with the 500 KS thing, i really think you do not have personal experience for that.

drop rates are too rare as is and they want to lower it????????? loooooooooooooooooooooool

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Originally Posted by Rambus

u :mad:

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Implying 20-30 trials is enough to state that something is rare. And lol as mentioning personal experience. Your personal experience worth nothing when all you did is 20-30 trials. Wiki is @ 16/111, and 111 is barely enough to confirm that something is "rare" as well. (not to mention the lack of reliability of wiki)

Now before complaining, as stated earlier, these drop rate could be heavily modified. We still don't know all the details.

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Originally Posted by Antipika

Implying 20-30 trials is enough to state that something is rare. And lol as mentioning personal experience. Your personal experience worth nothing when all you did is 20-30 trials. Wiki is @ 16/111, and 111 is barely enough to confirm that something is "rare" as well. (not to mention the lack of reliability of wiki)

Now before complaining, as stated earlier, these drop rate could be heavily modified. We still don't know all the details.

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have you done more the 30 ksnms? i love to know someone that has done more then that for admin

yes 2 out of 30 means its too low of a drop rate, (across 3 years i think) like most things in old game SE needs to learn drop rates they have in this game are super Horrid. this game made me hate those 2 words.

Everything about the proposed update is fine...

My only issue is how to obtain the trigger items.

There should be more than one way to obtain these triggers.

Maybe a npc who sells triggers for conquest points

or an NPC who hands out triggers like for an ENM... sorta like the moogle who gives you a free warp scroll once a day.. maybe get a free trigger once every 5 days like an enm?

Bottom line is this is a good idea.. it hasn't been implemented yet so stop the Q.Qlery and make suggestions for improvement.

Force pop hnm's is a very good concept

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Originally Posted by Rambus

NO! egg is a B*** to get. I used 2 pops for it, farmed it with others, 20-30 times see 2 drops. beard is like drop every other and i do not care about tongue because people will spam it for Dring.

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That's funny because in the KS99s I did a long time ago I saw 7 eggs out of 14 pops. It's all about luck and that's it. Btw you still didn't answer why you spent 5 years in Dynamis to make a yoichi and yet you couldn't have bothered to camp NQ turtle in all that time as well.

New system is better for most everyone because it offers a fair chance to fight Kings vs only one Linkshel botting for claim.

This update is only good for people with stock piles of KSNM, are you one? "yay for update that benfits me"

Flunklesnarkin like i said ealier, you be happy if they said it takes 500 ks to pop one, "oh but it is pop now so must be better."

that is what i ment when i called people sheep, like you take anything just because it is givin to you.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

This update is only good for people with stock piles of KSNM, are you one? "yay for update that benfits me"

Flunklesnarkin like i said ealier, you be happy if they said it takes 500 ks to pop one, "oh but it is pop now so must be better."

that is what i ment when i called people sheep, like you take anything just because it is givin to you.

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Enough with the negativity.. try to say something constructive.. or make a suggestion to the dev's