Concept and mechanics of a "Buy-Order" side of an AH

So there have been several threads posted that wanted to setup "Buy-Orders." So Lets create a thread for this rather than try to mix it in with other threads. I was guilty of this, so I will make my own thread. The following is my 2 gil on concept and mechanics:

The way I would tackle this would be to allow you to put in an order, example "I want 20 Iron Ores and I will pay 1 gil for each. so the order will look at 20 @ 1gil. Now once this is posted people can look in the "Buy-Order" section and see if there is anything they want to sell at the current prices.

Let me preempt some of your counters with this:

1) Yes, there will be idiots wanting to buy a pair of Vanya Pants for 1 gil. At-least you can point and laugh and move on down the buyers.

2) Yes, I do want people to be able to fill partial orders, so John can fill 7 of my 20 Iron Ore and Jane can fill 3, Fred can fill 2, Tom can fill 1, etc, etc, etc.

3) There should be a tax, make it payable at the end, as each partial/full order is completed and paid buy the person who put the order in.

4) When the "buy-order" is placed, pull the money from the buyers gil at the time the order is placed plus the tax

5) No, I do not know what a good "tax" rate should be for these types of transactions

6) No, I have not made up my mind if there should be a time limit on the buy-orders as they have as auction sales



Comments/Suggestions?

I like it. Only suggestion is I think it should be able to match off the current market board. If you say I want to by100 iron @ 3. And there are 75 on the market board for various prices 3 or under it should match those leaving you and open order of 25 left.

Here is my suggestion copied from the other thread.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

All good suggestions regarding buy orders, but I think they are very limited.

As I said before generally people want items now and then and putting in a buy order may result in waiting days or even weeks to have your order filled.

If people forget they had a buy order set they could end up getting things they no longer need.

The way I would like buy orders to work is that it would work in tandem with the marketboards, so when X person puts up 20 gold ore and the system see's I want to buy 20 gold ore for a price between 100-140g each, it will match.

Possibly buying 14 from one person and 6 from another. (this could also encourage people to list smaller stacks as they are more likely to fill someone's order in doing so)

The orders could be set up through the retainer.

Give the retainers a level system, the more levels, the more buy orders your retainer can complete a day/or at once.

When a buy order has been completed you get a message similar to the MW sales notification. (if the buy order has been completed whilst offline, have the retainer send you a mail to notify you of the purchase)

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Here is my suggestion copied from the other thread.

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It really has to work in tandem. Two separate systems will just be convoluted and ugly and like you said if I forget and end up with 200 ore that I don't need I will be a sad panda.

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Originally Posted by bwalker36

I like it. Only suggestion is I think it should be able to match off the current market board. If you say I want to by100 iron @ 3. And there are 75 on the market board for various prices 3 or under it should match those leaving you and open order of 25 left.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Here is my suggestion copied from the other thread.

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Yes, the idea of matching would be optimal, but i think getting the functionality of that would be frighteningly large. Given SE's propensity to not get it all the way right, lets use the KISS method (Keep It Simple Stupid) for this.

Again, keeping with the same KISS theme, let the buy and sale side be on the "AH Boards" Lets not give SE a chance to mess with our retainers...but i guess, if you want to do something like quest to expand your ability to add more buy/sale orders, it sounds like fun. Hell even give it to people who have been "Legacy" and have put up with all the utter BS. *whistles innocently*

Also, both sides need to be separate from each other for ease of programming.

If you want to see how to implement such a system with players placing both buy and sell orders, just look at EVE Online, which has always had the best developed player economy of any MMO (only the original Star Wars MMO and FFXI at its height even got in sight of it, as far as I know).

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Originally Posted by Wulfies

Yes, the idea of matching would be optimal, but i think getting the functionality of that would be frighteningly large. Given SE's propensity to not get it all the way right, lets use the KISS method (Keep It Simple Stupid) for this.

Also, both sides need to be separate from each other for ease of programming.

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If buy orders were not directly tied in with the market and filled automatically it would be a mistake. I never played eve so cannot comment there but GW2 does buy/sell orders just fine. That is the best System in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by bwalker36

If buy orders were not directly tied in with the market and filled automatically it would be a mistake. I never played eve so cannot comment there but GW2 does buy/sell orders just fine. That is the best System in my opinion.

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Yes, that's how it works in EVE. If there is an existing buy order that matches your sell order, or an existing sell order that matches your buy order, the sale occurs immediately. Otherwise, it goes up on the board for everybody to see; all the unfilled buy and sell orders can be viewed by anybody. Buy and sell orders can be partially filled, and buy orders can have minimums which are set by the player placing them, so that partial sell orders below the minimum are *not* filled.

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Originally Posted by Conradus

If you want to see how to implement such a system with players placing both buy and sell orders, just look at EVE Online, which has always had the best developed player economy of any MMO (only the original Star Wars MMO and FFXI at its height even got in sight of it, as far as I know).

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Originally Posted by bwalker36

If buy orders were not directly tied in with the market and filled automatically it would be a mistake. I never played eve so cannot comment there but GW2 does buy/sell orders just fine. That is the best System in my opinion.

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I do not know enough about Eve Online or Guild Wars 2 to debate that. As i stated in my first reply, matching would be optimal...the problem lies that SE hasn't changed the sale side to where we can buy/sell singles from a stack so all that are out there at this time are stacks of "x." I guess with partial buys to be fille dyou could, but I am looking at melding this in from a programming/dev side. SE currently has ZERO track record of getting stuff right. Lets not give them a chance to cluster this up any more than they already have.

Appreciate the dialogue/comments. Keep them coming

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Originally Posted by Wulfies

SE currently has ZERO track record of getting stuff right. Lets not give them a chance to cluster this up any more than they already have.

Appreciate the dialogue/comments. Keep them coming

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I get what your saying, my point is just that if they couldn't do it right I would prefer them to just leave things as it is now.

Agree with everybody, EVE and GW2 are pretty much what I would like to see for buy orders.

I would like the marketward to look and feel like Vindictus AH lol, but we all know SE aren't capable of this, even if a F2P company are, really quite sad :(

Never played either game, but i went to google images and looked at what the markets system was like, and omg, the Eve Online looks exactly like what I had imagined. (Lets see if i can link the picture below)

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/1...0629053732.jpg

If a game that has been out for about 10 years has this, why, WHY, WHY cant we have this?



http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...r/sadpanda.gif

Yup its very nice, but not a chance in hell would we ever get it.

So, I have been thinking on how to connect current buys with sellers. So when an item is placed on both the buy and sale side, send a message to the lister that saying something to the fact of:

"Hey...look at these items that are currently being sold on the market below your buy price (for buy side)" or "Hey...Look at these items which buyers are paying more than what your asking for (sale side)"

But in all honestly, 99.99% of the people that put stuff to buy on the "buy-side" will want to pay less than the lowest price on the AH to begin with. So the point might be moot.

Comments/Suggestions?

Am I the only one who think Buy Order shouldn't be implemented?
Like GW2, I made a lot of money just by standing in front of AH for hours or even days, just for money..
When my friend asked me for dungeon runs, I said no, World Boss, no, everything else, no..
Just too obsessed with AH for more money :D

AH 'til retired ;)

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Originally Posted by KimTaeyeon

Am I the only one who think Buy Order shouldn't be implemented?
Like GW2, I made a lot of money just by standing in front of AH for hours or even days, just for money..
When my friend asked me for dungeon runs, I said no, World Boss, no, everything else, no..
Just too obsessed with AH for more money :D

AH 'til retired ;)

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haha I know people who did that to, I was guilty of it occasionally but not often or for long periods.

I just did not have the patience to stare at the market board. Look for items that had large spreads and then buy and list. It will definitely create a huge opportunity for arbitrage but that will bring the buy and sell prices closer together which is probably a better thing overall.

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Originally Posted by KimTaeyeon

Am I the only one who think Buy Order shouldn't be implemented?
Like GW2, I made a lot of money just by standing in front of AH for hours or even days, just for money..
When my friend asked me for dungeon runs, I said no, World Boss, no, everything else, no..
Just too obsessed with AH for more money :D

AH 'til retired ;)

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Sounds like UO Brit bank. I like it!

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Originally Posted by KimTaeyeon

Am I the only one who think Buy Order shouldn't be implemented?
Like GW2, I made a lot of money just by standing in front of AH for hours or even days, just for money..
When my friend asked me for dungeon runs, I said no, World Boss, no, everything else, no..
Just too obsessed with AH for more money :D

AH 'til retired ;)

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But that's why i want buy orders.

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Originally Posted by KimTaeyeon

Am I the only one who think Buy Order shouldn't be implemented?
Like GW2, I made a lot of money just by standing in front of AH for hours or even days, just for money..
When my friend asked me for dungeon runs, I said no, World Boss, no, everything else, no..
Just too obsessed with AH for more money :D

AH 'til retired ;)

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I do not see how a buy-order system will not work for you. In most cases peopel on the "buy-side" will always want say Gold Ore for less than the lowest price on the market. You will still have your chance to to make money on arbitrage.

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Originally Posted by Wulfies

So, I have been thinking on how to connect current buys with sellers. So when an item is placed on both the buy and sale side, send a message to the lister that saying something to the fact of:

"Hey...look at these items that are currently being sold on the market below your buy price (for buy side)" or "Hey...Look at these items which buyers are paying more than what your asking for (sale side)"

But in all honestly, 99.99% of the people that put stuff to buy on the "buy-side" will want to pay less than the lowest price on the AH to begin with. So the point might be moot.

Comments/Suggestions?

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Not sure what you're trying to do. The system being discussed in this thread is exactly like how a stock exchange works, no need to look to EVE or GW2 as their systems are designed after those. Here's the basic way it operates:


As a participant in the market, I can make buy (bid) or sell (ask) orders as either market or limit orders.

If I make a market order, I specify only the volume I wish to buy or sell and the system fills open orders on the opposite side starting from the price closest to the spread (gap between bids and asks).

If I make a limit order, I specify the volume I wish to buy or sell and the price I wish to buy or sell at. The system checks the list of open orders on the other side to see if my order can be filled immediately by the open orders, starting from the orders closest to the spread (this is called crossing the spread, as I am making an order priced on the other side of the spread). If there are enough open orders between the spread and my specified price to completely fill my order, it and those open orders are filled against each other. If there are some open orders that are between the spread and my specified price but not enough to fill my order completely, those orders are filled and the remainder of mine is placed on my side of the spread as an open order. If there are no orders which can be immediately filled at my specified price, my order is put on the list as an open order on either the bid or ask side.

This system is very simple, has been the standard method of exchange on the financial markets for centuries, and has been demonstrated to be workable in an MMO setting by GW2 and EVE. There are numerous benefits to such a system which I've explained here.

And for all y'all who think you'll be making less money this way... what do you think stock traders do all day?

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Originally Posted by Sinbios

Not sure what you're trying to do. The system being discussed in this thread is exactly like how a stock exchange works, no need to look to EVE or GW2 as their systems are designed after those. Here's the basic way it operates:

...

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You are right, my second suggestion was to setup like a stock exchange, but all i wanted to do was to try to cut out stupidity. ie someone trying to buy gold ore for 300 each when people are selling for 200 each. Now, personally, I would let them do this, but people want this game to be fair to the buyer and seller so I added that cavet.

I would love to see a commodities exchange implementeted but I have very little hopes of that EVER being done here.

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Originally Posted by Wulfies

You are right, my second suggestion was to setup like a stock exchange, but all i wanted to do was to try to cut out stupidity. ie someone trying to buy gold ore for 300 each when people are selling for 200 each. Now, personally, I would let them do this, but people want this game to be fair to the buyer and seller so I added that cavet.

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That would be an order that crosses the spread so under the system described above it would simply immediately fill any open sell orders up to and including 300, and if there is not sufficient volume to fill the entire order then the remainder would be put on the buy orders list at 300. I think you're envisioning buy/sell markets that are isolated from each other which isn't the way it should work, they should be in the same environment and the buy side and sell side should be able to interact with each other.

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Originally Posted by Sinbios

That would be an order that crosses the spread so under the system described above it would simply immediately fill any open sell orders up to and including 300, and if there is not sufficient volume to fill the entire order then the remainder would be put on the buy orders list at 300. I think you're envisioning buy/sell markets that are isolated from each other which isn't the way it should work, they should be in the same environment and the buy side and sell side should be able to interact with each other.

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Personally i think the buy-side and sale-side should be independant of each other. In a UI approach, they should be 2 seperate tabs on the "Market Boards." I dont know of any game that have the two sides running concurrently as you propose (If there are games that do please let me know) Refering back to one of my replies:

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Originally Posted by Wulfies

Yes, the idea of matching would be optimal, but i think getting the functionality of that would be frighteningly large. Given SE's propensity to not get it all the way right, lets use the KISS method (Keep It Simple Stupid) for this.

Again, keeping with the same KISS theme, let the buy and sale side be on the "AH Boards" Lets not give SE a chance to mess with our retainers...but i guess, if you want to do something like quest to expand your ability to add more buy/sale orders, it sounds like fun. Hell even give it to people who have been "Legacy" and have put up with all the utter BS. *whistles innocently*

Also, both sides need to be separate from each other for ease of programming.

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:)

@Wulfies

They can be separate tabs, but the systems need to be intertwined to match automatically. I would prefer separate windows on the same screen. Seeing both sides at the same time helps.

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Originally Posted by Wulfies

Personally i think the buy-side and sale-side should be independant of each other. In a UI approach, they should be 2 seperate tabs on the "Market Boards." I dont know of any game that have the two sides running concurrently as you propose (If there are games that do please let me know) Refering back to one of my replies:

:)

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As bwalker36 said, they can be separated in the UI, but the underlying system has to be able to match buy orders with sell orders.

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Originally Posted by Sinbios

As bwalker36 said, they can be separated in the UI, but the underlying system has to be able to match buy orders with sell orders.

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Do you know of any game that has this auto matching already in place? I would love to see the mechanics behind that, even if I have to buy/sub that game.

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Originally Posted by Wulfies

Do you know of any game that has this auto matching already in place? I would love to see the mechanics behind that, even if I have to buy/sub that game.

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GW2 has this feature.

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Originally Posted by bwalker36

GW2 has this feature.

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Ok, damn, then SE really DOES need to get on the ball. Heh, a free to play game has this in place. My assumption was that it was programmingly prohibitive to implement this.

SQUARE-ENIX Dev - Can you comment on adding this feature to the game????????

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Originally Posted by Wulfies

Ok, damn, then SE really DOES need to get on the ball. Heh, a free to play game has this in place. My assumption was that it was programmingly prohibitive to implement this.

SQUARE-ENIX Dev - Can you comment on adding this feature to the game????????

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It may be free to play but it's still a AAA game by a proven dev. SE also will never do this as its not needed and although I believe to be inferior the current system works.

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Originally Posted by bwalker36

It may be free to play but it's still a AAA game by a proven dev. SE also will never do this as its not needed and although I believe to be inferior the current system works.

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Hi,

Can you please elaborate on your second sentence. Do you think GW2 market system is an inferior or is FFXIV's market system inferior?

Thanks :)

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Originally Posted by Wulfies

Hi,

Can you please elaborate on your second sentence. Do you think GW2 market system is an inferior or is FFXIV's market system inferior?

Thanks :)

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No they meant that although the current system is inferior, it works.

Buy Orders are in game.

Go to macros and type the following-

"/shout Hello, I am a (ADD YOUR DOH AND LEVEL), I will make you stuff cheaper then Market because I hate undercutting, so ill just do it cheaper!".

Add to hotbar and then push the button. People will then send you tells, respond to these to figure out which items they want. Then do the old shady mechanic routine, where you tell them your materials are imported from Italy and have a higher cost, materia is expensive these days.. yadda yadda.

BOOM, you just Buy Order'd. Gratz.

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Originally Posted by MentalPoison

Buy Orders are in game.

Go to macros and type the following-

"/shout Hello, I am a (ADD YOUR DOH AND LEVEL), I will make you stuff cheaper then Market because I hate undercutting, so ill just do it cheaper!".

Add to hotbar and then push the button. People will then send you tells, respond to these to figure out which items they want. Then do the old shady mechanic routine, where you tell them your materials are imported from Italy and have a higher cost, materia is expensive these days.. yadda yadda.

BOOM, you just Buy Order'd. Gratz.

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My system allows for better efficiency in the buyer and seller market by the following:

1) A seller who wants to sell their wares to clear inventory can go to the buy orders and sell directly to a buyer that has a buy-order. Granted this is below market value but if the seller wants to get rid of his or her items they will take the loss and move along.
2) A buyer gets the product that they wanted at a price that is below market price.

This is a Win-Win for both sides.

In your scenario I would need to spend my entire day in Uldah for this to work. I really do not want to waste my time doing that and I am sure most people would not either.

Second, with your macro system, can you imagine all the shouts that would happen if people did this? It would get tot he point that sellers would out-spam the RMT people. As an example, please look at the chat screens from Everquest in the "East Commonlands" (for all that remember playing that, yes, the dreaded lag of the EC tunnel and the Sgt Slate agro :) )zone pre-Shadows of Lucin expansion. "/Shout", "/Auction", & "/Ooc" were spammed to the point that it was causing significant lag in that zone.

Side note - you need to re-work your sentence on the "macro" if you hate undercutting yet you will do it cheaper. you ARE undercutting :)

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Originally Posted by MentalPoison

Buy Orders are in game.

Go to macros and type the following-

"/shout Hello, I am a (ADD YOUR DOH AND LEVEL), I will make you stuff cheaper then Market because I hate undercutting, so ill just do it cheaper!".

Add to hotbar and then push the button. People will then send you tells, respond to these to figure out which items they want. Then do the old shady mechanic routine, where you tell them your materials are imported from Italy and have a higher cost, materia is expensive these days.. yadda yadda.

BOOM, you just Buy Order'd. Gratz.

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I'm not sure how that is a buy order. A buy order would be more along the lines of me saying I bid 500g for x item and letting a crafter/gatherer fulfill that order. And the system explained previously is completely superior to what is in game as a whole and then shouting that you will make items for people. Not sure why you considered an offer to supply as a buy order but okay.

I'm assuming you were just trying for tongue in cheek (If not look up things), but since the concept of your tongue and cheek was wrong figured I would comment.

And to the OP I meant that the current system in FF is inferior to GW2 but since it works SE will not change it.

Install GW2 Trading Post System. Done. Out of every MMO I have played it is by far the best (though can be glitchy some times but only rarely and naturally fixes if you close out of the Trading Post window for a few seconds) system I have ever worked with.

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Originally Posted by Maku

Install GW2 Trading Post System. Done. Out of every MMO I have played it is by far the best (though can be glitchy some times but only rarely and naturally fixes if you close out of the Trading Post window for a few seconds) system I have ever worked with.

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As much as I disliked the GW2 game in general - the market system was well done. I'd be extremely happy with either a version of that or even better, a version of EVE's market system. Buy orders to help market liquidity would be wonderful.

I posted in another thread about my thoughts on this, I would be for it..Im going to just copy past the post from that thread here to save a rewrite.

{I like the buy order idea also. I think it should add another dimension to the markets without effecting to much the normal MB,if handled correctly. A reverse of the MB maybe, where the buyer pays ahead while placing an order.If the order is filled within a set time, the seller is paid and delivery made. If the order is not filled, then gil refunded. This would allow the buyer to play at the sellers game somewhat,but force those in need of an item right now to go to the MB.

My only thoughts are on how messy it would be to implement and how popular it would be,would it be a ghost town or destroy the MB. Even still a buyer v/s seller game to dominate might be fun.}