Help, Why do I lose aggro when healer cast regen?

as said above, this happened when fighting Garuda(normal).
pulled with tomahawk, then healer cast regen, my aggro died. why?
and it was really hard to pull it back garuda, she was chasing healer around, and I have to keep running at both of them.
Died like many times, one dps got pissed off and left. Dps's said is my fault.
Am I doing something wrong? please help.

Regen healing and overhealing causes hate just like anything else.

don't have the healer cast regen when you pull, healers should know this anyways, but also make sure you click off regen before you pull.
Healers should only be casting regen mid fight not at the start

Alright, I see, Next time will instruct healers that, Thanks a bunch!

The different healing powers have different enmity mods. Regen has an enmity modifier of 1. Cure has an enmity modifier of .5. Cure II and a lot of the bigger heals have an enmity modifier of .8.

Barring Provoke on a target that you have absolutely no threat on while someone else has a crapton, Medica II is the highest enmity generating power *in the game*: it'll hit 8 targets for a potency 200 heal at a .8 modifier and then tick for 500 more over 15 seconds at a modifier of 1. That's 5280 enmity as spell potency *from a single 3 second cast*.

No healer should cast Regen or Medica II *any time* close to an add spawning: 10 seconds before and after a new enemy enters combat is Medica II/Regen no-time. If a healer casts either of those spells during that time, that healer better expect to take more than a few hits to the face by ripping aggro off of the tank, regardless of how good the tank is at generating aggro. Even Shroud of Saints isn't going to do enough a lot of the time: they simply generate *too much enmity* for a tank to rip back.

Most of the time that a healer rips aggro from a tank, it's not the tank's fault: healing generates aggro *really* efficiently, especially when it's AoE healing. A healer that heals indiscriminately is going to give even an *amazing* tank a helluva time.

As a healer I notice this too, I try not to cast regen towards the end of a fight, but because it does happen, tanks should also be in the habit of looking at there buffs before pulling, you may have a regen buff lingering from the last fight, and if you pull with that on, you may keep the mob that you hit first, but the other 2 are going straight for me lol

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Originally Posted by Kitru

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True story. I can't tell you how many times I've had a healer cast regen on me AS I'm running in to pull a group of mobs.
There are also the healers that love to spam their AoE heals for some ungodly reason when the only person that has any dmg is me (or maybe that dps that targeted the wrong mob).

It can be a pain fighting to get hate back from a trigger happy healer, same thing can be said about dps.
Tanking is a party effort, unless you have a horrible tank, if you're getting smacked in the face, you probably over did something.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

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Kitru is dead on with this explanation though I'm not sure about the exact enmity modifiers. In a situation where there is a single add or you simply lose hate to the healer your best course of action is to Cover that player -> then Provoke the target.

In add situations PLD and WAR are left with virtually no tools to deter monsters from targeting an over zealous healer. Flash and Overpower can't outpace Healing AOE enmity generated in 8 man groups. WHM can spam it's high enmity heavy Cure III/Cure II/Medica II and effectively take hate and hold it - I've had PUG WHM's brag they're "tanking" but it only lasts until their MP is diminished.

If you encounter an aforementioned WHM I suggest letting them have their fun, and then letting them eat dirt. FFXIV lacks a support role that can funnel enmity back into the tank or away from DPS/Healers effectively - this was the function of a Thief in FFXI. Hate redirection was & is a /really/ fun role to fill and it adds another layer of player cooperation and synergy to combat rather than the current direct "competition" between tank and party members for threat control. Both WAR and PLD would greatly benefit from a way to funnel the enmity of other members back towards themselves. Provoke is a good tool to jump to the top of the list in a single target emergency - but we can only tank when we're allowed the time to generate the needed enmity base on single targets or group targets.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

Hate redirection was & is a /really/ fun role to fill and it adds another layer of player cooperation and synergy to combat rather than the current direct "competition" between tank and party members for threat control. Both WAR and PLD would greatly benefit from a way to funnel the enmity of other members back towards themselves.

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I was quite surprised that they decided to make a game with a non-trivial threat metagame without any kind of complex threat mechanisms. One of the best/most interesting things for a "support" role DPS would be threat redirection and a "support" healer could have a targeted threat drop (or an ability that has different effects depending upon the target's role: tank gets enmity on all target increased by 20%; DPS and heals get enmity on all targets reduced by 20%). While I don't believe that "support" should exist as an explicit role, there's a lot more "support" that could be tacked on to various jobs.

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Provoke is a good tool to jump to the top of the list in a single target emergency - but we can only tank when we're allowed the time to generate the needed enmity base on single targets or group targets.

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Honestly, Provoke doesn't really do all that much, even in an emergency. The only times that anyone should be pulling threat off of a tank is early on in a fight, when the finishing move of a Butcher's Block or Halone combo would still be more than enough to get the tank back to the top (not to mention providing more than Provoke did anyways). The only time you should need or even *want* Provoke is when you're the MT, you die, you get rezzed, and the OT can't take over MT for whatever reason. At that point, you *need* Provoke because it's the only way to get back to anywhere near the top of the enmity meters because you're starting at 0 while everyone else is in the 4-5 digit range. Of course, this is predicated on it not just being a wipe because the MT died or the OT not being able to pick up after you.

To be really useful, Provoke would need to provide either a time where the enemy is *forced* to attack you (so that you can rebuild a threat cushion) or a fair deal more "bonus" enmity than just max+1.

Also, interesting note, Provoke only generates aggro based upon the highest threat of your current party. It does nothing for ripping threat off of someone that isn't grouped with you (like FATE tanking).

Thank you for all the above info Kitru, I am a Glad tank but it all applies the same.
Much appreciated :D

Kitru, thank you!!! I deeply appreciate your explanations.

I tried using a combo with berserk-heavy swing etc, with flash and overpower, bloodbath, it didn't bring Garuda back to me. Instead every second it goes back to healer and a summoner who was healing too, the other dps an arcanist. Its really depressing. it was all about I can't hold aggro, I should be 'able' to take it back ASAP by running around.

I'm going to try what i saw on another post about crit-berserked combo stuff. i watched every youtube video i could ever find for a war/marauder class. did exactly how they pull, position. I am still the worst tanker despite following what veterans do. ah nightmare..!

Dear tankers,

Defiance
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Heavy Swing - Skull Sunder - Butcher's Block (repeat or/+unchained)
Heavy Swing - Maim - Storm's Eye - flash/overpower/Berserk - (Convalscence/bloodbath)
Heavy Swing - Maim - Storm's Eye - Steel Cyclone/Inner Beast - (Foresight)
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Monster < 20% - Mercy Stroke / inner beast
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AM I doing it right? seriously? I have enmity (garuda is RED box). Why did Garuda ran to SMN?

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Originally Posted by Niadissa

As a healer I notice this too, I try not to cast regen towards the end of a fight, but because it does happen, tanks should also be in the habit of looking at there buffs before pulling, you may have a regen buff lingering from the last fight, and if you pull with that on, you may keep the mob that you hit first, but the other 2 are going straight for me lol

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This will never happen. The enmity from all over-time skills is front loaded, meaning all enmity is generated at the time of casting and not over the duration.

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Originally Posted by Onshinn

I'm going to try what i saw on another post about crit-berserked combo stuff. i watched every youtube video i could ever find for a war/marauder class. did exactly how they pull, position. I am still the worst tanker despite following what veterans do. ah nightmare..!

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I know the feeling. I don't take the game seriously enough and have friends rage at me occasionally for doing a crap job. All in good time eh? :)

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It does nothing for ripping threat off of someone that isn't grouped with you (like FATE tanking).

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Hey Kitru, I too feel Provoke is only useful in the utmost extreme circumstances given the way it functions, and thus don't use it. But that said, I was curious if your above claim of how Provoke worked vs. players outside your own group was accurate, as I've never tested it myself.

I bring it up because of the example of 'FATE tanking' you inserted at the end there. I recall the patch notes before launch noting that they made Provoke unusable in FATES (presumably to prevent people from griefing bosses by leashing them). So that in turn led me to wondering if your claim of how Provoke worked outside the group was accurate for all contexts and you just thought 'FATE tanking' to be a good example of where it might arise, or if it's possible the example you gave was the premise for why you believed that to be the way it functions.

Addonex

Being a lalafel will play a big part in losing aggro as all your abilities will be doing 20/25% less enmity. If you check http://ventusinvictus.blogspot.com/2...din-guide.html it will give you a bit more info.

Normally if I lose agro I will provoke + tomahawk x 2 or provoke + skull sunder/butchers block aslong as the combo is active. I never use provoke + heavy swing as it will just go back to the dpser/healer.

Your rotation looks good but I nearly always Heavy Swing - Skull Sunder - Butcher's Block x 2 just to make sure. Otherwise if someone gets aggro whilst you're doing your dps combo it is a nightmare.

Also you are opening with tomahawk i hope?

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Originally Posted by CyanDvai

don't have the healer cast regen when you pull, healers should know this anyways, but also make sure you click off regen before you pull.
Healers should only be casting regen mid fight not at the start

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This. They need to wait before you establish the initial threat. It's nothing you're doing :)

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Originally Posted by Tassos

This will never happen. The enmity from all over-time skills is front loaded, meaning all enmity is generated at the time of casting and not over the duration.

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Try doing a pull with Regen on you. Before you even get a chance to throw out *anything*, everything except for the target you hit with Tomahawk/Shield Lob is going to go running to the healer. Also, try having a tank swat a single target and then throw a DoT on it; you'll start off with barely any aggro and watch it slowly crawl up.

Effects over time most *definitely* generate aggro with each tick. They *might* be frontloaded (I have my doubts and it might actually be on a case-by-case basis for each ability), but, at best, it's 50% of total enmity upon application with the ticks generating 50% as much as otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Addonex

Hey Kitru, I too feel Provoke is only useful in the utmost extreme circumstances given the way it functions, and thus don't use it. But that said, I was curious if your above claim of how Provoke worked vs. players outside your own group was accurate, as I've never tested it myself.

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When I was leveling PLD (admittedly, that was about 2 weeks ago), I did a lot of FATEs. Whenever someone that was out of my group had aggro on something, I could Provoke it, but it wouldn't do anything but would still go on CD (did this *numerous* times on Svara). Whenever someone in my own group had aggro on something, I could Provoke it and it would behave exactly as it's supposed to (once again, did it several times on Svara).

@Kitru

Are you the same from Swtor?

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Originally Posted by Anienai

@Kitru

Are you the same from Swtor?

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There is only one Kitru (my sig should be a bit of a giveaway).

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Originally Posted by Dhex

In add situations PLD and WAR are left with virtually no tools to deter monsters from targeting an over zealous healer. Flash and Overpower can't outpace Healing AOE enmity generated in 8 man groups. WHM can spam it's high enmity heavy Cure III/Cure II/Medica II and effectively take hate and hold it - I've had PUG WHM's brag they're "tanking" but it only lasts until their MP is diminished.

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I tend to cast Stoneskin on a tank so they have time to generate aggro on a pull but occasionally they run in when a regen is still on. Good tanks still get aggro easily, scrubs do not. If you've had WHM's brag they are tanking it is because you are simply a horrendous player.

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Originally Posted by Synol

I tend to cast Stoneskin on a tank so they have time to generate aggro on a pull but occasionally they run in when a regen is still on. Good tanks still get aggro easily, scrubs do not. If you've had WHM's brag they are tanking it is because you are simply a horrendous player.

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Synol. Enter a battle with a WHM using Medic II every 2.5GCD on 8 players with the intent of giving the tank a hard time does not make the tank the /bad/ player - it doesn't matter how well you generate enmity as a tank you're not going to outpace a WHM that's decided to be an impatient asshole. It's common to encounter this kind of behavior in the Duty Finder for repetitive simple things like CM.

More than half of my random dungeon AK groups use regen constantly. Its an awesome/efficient spell. I just click it off before each multi-pull so they don't die.
I wish regen emnity didn't go back on the healer because it's super annoying.

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Originally Posted by CyanDvai

True story. I can't tell you how many times I've had a healer cast regen on me AS I'm running in to pull a group of mobs.

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Regen and all HoTs applied on the tank prior to pull are there to mitigate incoming damage at the beginning of combat (specially with packs of mobs that will eat through stoneskin in a fraction of a second). HoTs are both Proactive and Reactive; the only real issue is that the healer should never regen everyone in the group prior to pull. That's where you see the most aggro issues with Regen.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

FFXIV lacks a support role that can funnel enmity back into the tank or away from DPS/Healers effectively - this was the function of a Thief in FFXI.

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Hate tranfer, like buffing and debuffing, is a tertiary class aspect and a perk that can be given to a select few DPS that make sense. WoW's Rogue and Hunter classes had nifty abilities to transfer hate (Tricks of the Trade AKA "DPS buff to the tank while transferring a percentage of generated threat to the tank" and Misdirect AKA "a much better, ranged version of trick attack") while still being good DPS. I don't see why Thief and Ranger/Gunner/<insert ranged job> wouldn't have that be part of their arsenal.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Regen and all HoTs applied on the tank prior to pull are there to mitigate incoming damage at the beginning of combat (specially with packs of mobs that will eat through stoneskin in a fraction of a second). HoTs are both Proactive and Reactive; the only real issue is that the healer should never regen everyone in the group prior to pull. That's where you see the most aggro issues with Regen.

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It doesn't matter whether Regen is on one target or all targets in a pull: having a HoT on anyone is going to immediately draw everything away from the tank and towards the healer as soon as combat begins. Rather than running to the tank so that they can be nicely grouped up and easily picked up, the group will splinter and spread out, making it way harder and much less efficient for the tank to do so. Any healer that thinks that it's even remotely close to okay to start off a fight with *anyone* HoTed up is actively trying to make life harder on the tank for no particularly good reason: there aren't any fight/pulls that burst hard enough in the beginning that you need the extra couple of ticks that said HoT would provide.

The only things that a healer should put on people are absorb shields, since those *don't* draw aggro while still doing *exactly* what said healer wants out of them: eating the first few hits while they set up and gauge the fight. HoTs do the job *worse* while also being *way* riskier and annoying to boot.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

It doesn't matter whether Regen is on one target or all targets in a pull: having a HoT on anyone is going to immediately draw everything away from the tank and towards the healer as soon as combat begins.

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Which is testimony to there being something wrong with the way HoT enmity is being calculated. I totally agree on healers that spam Medica over and over as well as overzealous DPS. Knowing how to proactively heal is the sign of a good healer, and what you're arguing for is removing a part of that aspect simply because threat values on Regen are wonky, clinging to the wrong part of the skill argument instead of perhaps asking for an adjustment to how HoTs generate aggro.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Which is testimony to there being something wrong with the way HoT enmity is being calculated.

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Except that knowing when and if to use a HoT is just as much part of being a good healer as pre-healing. HoTs and DoTs have applied threat at the time that the damage and healing occur, rather than entirely up front, in every game that I know of. In some games, like WoW, where tanks are expected to drop a single AoE and get threat on everything permanently, ARR was designed with a tighter/more challenging threat metagame. You don't just hit something once and have all of the aggro on it you need. You can't even effectively frontload threat generation because more than half of it is backloaded onto the third attack in your high enmity combo. Personally, I like that; it adds a level of complexity to tanking that most games lack. Healers have to deal with the tighter enmity model just as much as tanks do; they have to wait until the tank has tagged everything before throwing out any heals, which includes HoTs. It's why Stoneskin and Adloquium are so useful.

You're operating under the assumption that it is a *problem* that healers can't HoT up all the time, which I honestly don't believe it is because the game isn't designed to make enmity a joke *anyone*. Enmity is a factor in how *everyone* plays and the proper time to use HoTs is one of the biggest things healers have to learn about that part of the game, along with how to AoE heal effectively and avoid overhealing to minimize enmity generation.