Please get rid of Stamina

It's a pointless system

no one care about stamina or tiredness while fighting for life, that's nonsense and make the game boring

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Originally Posted by Evangela

It's a pointless system

no one care about stamina or tiredness while fighting for life, that's nonsense and make the game boring

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The battle system is being re-worked.

Also I feel the stamina system is something which introduces a certain element of strategy in battles, since there'll be times you'll need to be conservative with what you do, and save your stamina for more important actions when you know you'll need them. (or at least this is how the stamina system works for me anyway)
It's actually the opposite of boring to me.

we already have MP and TP for that

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Originally Posted by Evangela

It's a pointless system

no one care about stamina or tiredness while fighting for life, that's nonsense and make the game boring

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nope this a huge tool for balancing skills, and will make haste worthwhile if they ever add it, not to mention it allows you to hold back when needed and smash when you can, without lowering dps, its actually a very good battle mechanic, in systems where gameplay is dynamic.
People say they dont want spam, and want tactical combat, but they want to take the tools out of the game which make combat tactical

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Originally Posted by Evangela

we already have MP and TP for that

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The HP/MP pools in this game, to be honest, are so rediculously high that you can't really include them in as a strategic element of the game. They are more of a survival element i.e. what keeps you alive. The strategic element should be what you DO to keep yourself alive and that means what you do in battle with regards to actions and stamina spending, as well as placement.

Stamina is awesome, especially when combined with multishot. They need to add more stamina dumps that don't actually give you damage RIGHT THEN but are "delayed damage". Multishot does this, but other classes need abilities that do this as well, would add a ton of strategy and skill to playing.

well for other jobs, the stamina dumps are stringing a bunch of skills together, but yeah it would be cool if they had more things you could string together. i could see marauder with a skill that increases damage the longer you wait, preferably with a visual cue that makes it obvious that you are powering up/what general level your power is.

Physic that's what the Alpha version of this game was charging up skills to do more dmg but it scraped cause everyone hated it.

I kinda wish it worked like FFXIII's stamina bar so everything was in blocks then you could stack your moves for combo's and then launch it, kinda like a self made BR. When I heard about the stamina bar thats how I expected it to work but guess not.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Physic that's what the Alpha version of this game was charging up skills to do more dmg but it scraped cause everyone hated it.

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na, i mean marauder as a class, should get a skill where their damage increases the longer the buff lasts. Marauder is supposed to be the slow powerful class, and thats that type of skill. Basically different ways to make use of your stamina, so as to plan a tactic, as well as sometimes its best not to attack right that instant, but you want more power when you do attack. For example if you think the monster is about to do a weaponskill that you have to avoid, but your stamina is high you can run, pop a skill, run back, and be even more effecient than if you had struck right then, and taken the hit.

I want stamina to go also, I don't understand why a DoM requires both mana and stamina and why a DoW requires both TP and stamina.

Hopefully with auto attack being added stamina will be removed from the game.

As for the person who mentioned haste well that would still work in that it would shorten the recast timers of your skills and abilities just as it did in FF11.

There is no need to have stamina to balance the game when you have recast timers anyway, I would sooner see global cooldown than keep stamina.

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The HP/MP pools in this game, to be honest, are so rediculously high that you can't really include them in as a strategic element of the game.

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MP is balanced by the cost of the skill and HP the amount of damage taken, the number has nothing to do with it.

Please do NOT get rid of stamina.

People like the OP just don't know the reason for it.

Its so that there is a "cost" (aka time) associated to using a more powerful action.

Imagine it as a "cast bar" if you will. Or your ATB in any other FF game. The bar must fill before you can take an action.

A shield skill should not take the same "action" cost as the most powerful weaponskill in the game.

Please use common sense people.

No stamina cost means spamming skills. DO NOT DO THIS

Spamming skills means ANY strategy we even THOUGHT we had in this game is now gone because it becomes a spamfest.

In order for strategy to exist in this system, an action cost mechanic must exist. The current system is an "opposite cast bar" method of a "cost system" in this game.

This game is not turn based, and weapons do not have "delay" as in FFXI. SO, unless you want everything to have a cast bar, you should start enjoying this system because in order to change it, the whole game needs to change. (which puts this game out of commission)

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Please do NOT get rid of stamina.

People like the OP just don't know the reason for it.

Its so that there is a "cost" (aka time) associated to using a more powerful action.

Imagine it as a "cast bar" if you will.

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So why do mages have a cast time, recast time and stamina. (oh and an mana pool)

If a move is "THAT" powerful does it not make sense to have a large recast timer to offset it ?

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Originally Posted by Jinko

MP is balanced by the cost of the skill and HP the amount of damage taken, the number has nothing to do with it.

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MP being balanced with the cost of the skill was not what I was talking about at all. Nor does the amount of HP being taken. I suggest re-reading what I was saying in previous posts.

Don't you mean it makes the game not boring? So you just want to use all your abilities at once with no cool-downs whatsoever?

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Originally Posted by Adol

MP being balanced with the cost of the skill was not what I was talking about at all. Nor does the amount of HP being taken. I suggest re-reading what I was saying in previous posts.

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I know exatcly what you were refering too, mister condescendance.

My CON at 47 has very similar MP to my WHM in 11 at 75, its not a huge difference, yes they are there for lastability but thats stating the plan obvious, FF11 didn't have stamina nor does most MMO's out there (outside of specific classes) so lets not pretend that its a needed mechanic to make the game more challenging.

If you take away stamina and add a recast time, isn't that EXACTLY the same system as we have currently?

Think about it.

No, really, think about it.

You are exchanging a "bar" that counts up with:
a "bar" that counts down.

(A "bar" is just a timer that is numerically represented as a graphic timer no?)

You are all suggesting replacing the current system with the EXACT SAME SYSTEM. Just using Numbers to represent the "reduction" of a timer to use a skill instead of a bar that "fills" to use a skill after timer.

Does it really matter that much to you all that a number counts down instead of filling up? Because that is ALL that you are asking for.

Jinko, why exactly do you want to remove stamina? It adds another layer of skill and strategy. It adds another layer of things to pay attention to, how exactly is this bad? It's not, at all. You say "Why do mages have to manage stamina and mp, why do melee have to manage TP and stamina. Well, maybe because it makes the game/combat system a lot more interesting?
Let's not dumb down the game anymore please.

Oh this is some true comedy.

Let's take away the one major thing that makes this game's battle system any different from 11. Great idea! And it comes straight from the people who constantly moan over how much they hated 11 because they couldn't get out of Valkrum Dunes. XIV really should be a "new and different" game huh?

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Originally Posted by Visch

Oh this is some true comedy.

Let's take away the one major thing that makes this game's battle system any different from 11. Great idea! And it comes straight from the people who constantly moan over how much they hated 11 because they couldn't get out of Valkrum Dunes. XIV really should be a "new and different" game huh?

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Yoda - Star wars : Clone Wars

"Like fire across the galaxy, the Clone Wars spread. In league with the wicked Count Dooku more and more planets slip. Upon the Jedi Knights falls the duty to lead the newly formed Army of the Republic."

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I know exatcly what you were refering too, mister condescendance.

My CON at 47 has very similar MP to my WHM in 11 at 75, its not a huge difference, yes they are there for lastability but thats stating the plan obvious, FF11 didn't have stamina nor does most MMO's out there (outside of specific classes) so lets not pretend that its a needed mechanic to make the game more challenging.

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Actually i think stamina is just the manual mechanic version of our Auto-Attack feature we have in ffxi. Since the game was designed to be manual input oriented, you have to have some kind of limit to your actions.
Now with that said, I will agree that I think MP should not be tied into the stamina bar, but the stamina bar should still exist. I only say that, because MP is already on a cast timer, it makes hardly any since to have MP on 2 separate timers.

I wouldn't even mind if they dumped the MP cast timer, for the already existent stamina timer. At-least it would make since with the rest of the battle system.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I know exatcly what you were refering too, mister condescendance.

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I don't believe anything I said showed any sign of "condescendence".

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Originally Posted by Jinko

so your lets not pretend that its a needed mechanic to make the game more challenging

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I'm not entirely sure I understand what it is you're saying there (it wasn't very good english, sorry).
But from what I am guessing you meant: I don't remember saying stamina was a "needed" mechanic to make it more challenging.

If the devs rework the current battle system in to something more intuitive and dynamic than the current one then that's great.

In the future please try and pick your tone of typing better.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

If you take away stamina and add a recast time, isn't that EXACTLY the same system as we have currently?

Think about it.

No, really, think about it.

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Thinks about it ...

Thinks some more...

... hmm is this a trick question ..

Oh wait I know, we already have recast timers.

Do I win anything ?

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Jinko, why exactly do you want to remove stamina? It adds another layer of skill and strategy. It adds another layer of things to pay attention to, how exactly is this bad? It's not, at all. You say "Why do mages have to manage stamina and mp, why do melee have to manage TP and stamina. Well, maybe because it makes the game/combat system a lot more interesting?
Let's not dumb down the game anymore please.

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Ok I'll half bite.

First explain to me how not having stamina in FF11 made that game dumbed down.

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Originally Posted by SydeBeheln

Actually i think stamina is just the manual mechanic version of our Auto-Attack feature we have in ffxi. Since the game was designed to be manual input oriented, you have to have some kind of limit to your actions.

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You are correct, but thing is we know that auto-attack is coming back so does it not make the purpose of stamina useless if we can no longer spam basic attacks ?

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Originally Posted by Adol

I'm not entirely sure I understand what it is you're saying there (it wasn't very good english, sorry).

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Indeed, thats why I edited it, although all you had to do was remove the word "your" and it would make perfect sense.

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Originally Posted by Adol

If the devs rework the current battle system in to something more intuitive and dynamic than the current one then that's great.

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Didn't Yoshi-p suggest just that in his last 2 letters ?

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Originally Posted by Adol

In the future please try and pick your tone of typing better.

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Yes Mom ! :(

Yeah, but if you take away stamina, recast timers go through the roof to re balance the system.

Andd..... We wind up with every other MMO in the world.

Fine with me if thats the goal I guess.

Stamina allows for shorter cooldowns on abilities because you must choose between them by using your "stamina"

The alternative is that there is no "stamina" and you can use anything you want instantly, BUT the cooldowns are doubled because they can be used back to back to back to back... And the strategy goes out the door because the only "strat" becomes "waiting till X is off cooldown and then use it instantly"

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Thinks about it ...

Thinks some more...

... hmm is this a trick question ..

Oh wait I know, we already have recast timers.

Do I win anything ?



Ok I'll half bite.

First explain to me how not having stamina in FF11 made that game dumbed down.



You are correct, but thing is we know that auto-attack is coming back so does it not make the purpose of stamina useless if we can no longer spam basic attacks ?

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Yea, this was said assuming we kept the stamina, or the original system. An auto battle feature is in the works, so stamina no longer has any meaning now. It's like stacking 2 different systems on top of each-other. I don't have any problem with stamina, and frankly I like the manual input in xiv, it felt new. But, if we have auto-battle, stamina can't work with it, unless they create some extremely abstract method of using it, and I don't really see that happening.

I can see where Stamina can be viewed as a tactical element, but its potential is somewhat limited to party-play (in solo-play it just becomes a bore/"grind gate"). For instance, it can be good when you need to conserve Stamina to quickly kill a mob or use a set of abilities required for a specific scenario.

Personally I think they can do alot better. The system is very basic, can easily become a meaningless frustration on longer fights, and really doesn't have accompanying in-game encounters that truly capitalize on it.

Ultimately, I hope they substitute it for a system that is more geared towards group-coordination of abilities to tackle difficult fight mechanics (in addition to adding more depth to class abilities and ability rotations). I personally think that this route contains more possibilities, as well as provides a small goal/challenge for players to achieve without authentic frustration.

I am imagining that in the battle revision patch, they are going to be slowing down stamina generation and making standard attacks use no stamina (and add auto attack) special attacks will use far less stamina.

Stamina costs will be revised for all skills because of the reduction in stamina gain.

Mages will be using stamina for skills only and MP for nukes only.

That's just my theory though, it should hold up assuming what they said they wanted was to be able to allow for auto attack and conversation, as well as have the decisions you make in party play have more of an impact in battle.

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Originally Posted by Adol

Okay, so now you have fixed your typing error I'll have to ask a question.

Just what is it you're referring to when you say "that its a needed mechanic". Do you mean the stamina bar. If so, aren't you somewhat agreeing with me? This is odd since I thought you were trying to disagree with me.

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I also said lets not pretend. :S

Just to be clear I want the removal of the stamina guage, I thought that was clear.

Stamina is unique, and it is good, most people dont realize it because they steamroll battles, or ignore a lot of thier potential.

Stamina is not like tp, tp is awarded for the more basic actions you take, it is essentially like a rage, or build up system, you build up a pool of skills and you can use them as you see fit, in order to get tp, you need to be close to the mob, and you need to be attacking the mob.

Stamina allows many tactical things to occur

stamina allows you to control your your dps/amount of things you can do. without stamina it is always best to be doing something, anything, waiting is always bad and should be avoided

Stamina allows for positional combat, it allows you to run away from an aoe, run back in, and take no hit to your damage done, you choose when to attack, and at what pace.
It allows you to reposition yourself in battle, lancer can move out of aoe range after every hit, or repositon itself to maximize directional aoe/line of sight, without it being a waste of dps.

Stamina allows you to watch your enemy and maximize your damage/skill use, when it is best to do so, without stamina, waiting for a tp move, or for an evade to happen, or a parry is you sacrificing all of the actions you could have made, with stamina, it is waiting for the best time to strike, for example

pugilist is tanking a powerful monster, he uses pummel to fill his tp, light strike to get evasion, featherfoot, and he waits, his stamina bar is now at 1/3rd and slowly regenerating, the mob does nothing, then it attacks, he evades and follows with a jarring strike stunning the mob, imediately followed by a concussive blow, raging strike victimize.
he has used his stamina effeciently to maximize his damage without wasted attacks, and play a defensive role, he chose when to do actions, and did not waste any time at all. without stamina, he would have been wasting time

its not the same as recasts, recast the idea is to use a skill as soon as you can so it can be available sooner to maximize recast, you want to use a strong skill as much as possible, waiting is wasting the amount of times you could do whatever skill it is. for example say i have a powerful attack on recast, every second that i do not use this skill when the time is up, i am lessening my damage. recast gaming creates rotations as your best form of doing any actions, use the best skills as often as possible, mix in smaller skills while recast is down.

mp is your total pool, it functions totally different than stamina, it doesnt regenerate except through specific actions


in all honesty this combat system is really good, and its pretty deep, people are just beginning to scratch the surface of its potential, and it allows even people untrained to get by, but people who take it further can do great things. The biggest problem in this games combat, is not the combat itself, or the skills, the problem is we have so little cause to use our full powers. Its the low level mobs, and non grouped monsters

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

I am imagining that in the battle revision patch, they are going to be slowing down stamina generation and making standard attacks use no stamina (and add auto attack) special attacks will use far less stamina.

Stamina costs will be revised for all skills because of the reduction in stamina gain.

Mages will be using stamina for skills only and MP for nukes only.

That's just my theory though, it should hold up assuming what they said they wanted was to be able to allow for auto attack and conversation, as well as have the decisions you make in party play have more of an impact in battle.

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This was something I thought about when they announced they were putting auto-battle in. However, when you look at this equation you will see something extremely unneeded.

Stamina = time - Stamina was designed to limit the actions of players, this falls under the same category as "cool-down timers"
If we look at ffxiv's current system, we have cool-down timers, and stamina involved at the same time.
This is a double whammy of limits, and only makes since, because players had the ability to affect how much stamina they generate over time.

Now if we apply Auto-battle, we have to loose one of these limits, mainly because we can no longer affect our stamina over time variable.
My honest opinion would be to loose the over used "cool-down timers".
Put everything into stamina, mainly because it's new, and original in comparison to other mmo's.

good use of stamina is what separates the men from the boys

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Originally Posted by Physic

stamina allows you to control your your dps/amount of things you can do. without stamina it is always best to be doing something, anything, waiting is always bad and should be avoided

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What about when you are stuck in a BR :P

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My honest opinion would be to loose the over used "cool-down timers".
Put everything into stamina, mainly because it's new, and original in comparison to other mmo's.

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I could live with this, although I would be curious to see how a fight with intense healing would turn out.

even if they get ride of it it will most likely be the same thing re-done as a timer.

I am hoping they come up with something new =]
I want to relearn a new system, not go back in time to the days of auto-attack,auto-attack,auto-attack,Weapon skill,Auto-attack,auto-attack... lol

Eh, stamina is a rather crappy mechanic - it just makes you wait to do stuff you were gonna do anyway. We already have cooldown timers to prevent skill spamming. I'd still shoot out skull sunders, trammels, heavy trammels, and shriekers at the same rate with or without stamina bars, but it does get in the way of me wanting to use provoke, comrade in arms, and other skills when I want to.

Some of those problems, however, are more related to the stamina cost of some skills rather than the presence of the stamina bar itself. Stamina costs on certain skills like disorient, provoke, ambidexterity, Deflection, and others are just stupid.

It's a resource management system that does more to get in the way and inconvenience you, rather than actually make you think. Plus, I wonder if all those stamina checks doesn't add up to more lag...?

To think about how the removal of stamina would affect players, just think about how Speed Surge 2 affects the playstyle of lancers, and if everyone was able to use it. Wouldn't make much of a difference, if you ask me. Battle would probably be more fun.

Anyway, I'd be fine if they just removed the stamina bar altogether and leave the cooldowns as it is.

Alternatively, I'd be fine if they halved the stamina cost for all skills from what they currently are.

If it's true that the stamina calculations contribute to lag and unresponsiveness, then just get rid of it.

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Originally Posted by SydeBeheln

This was something I thought about when they announced they were putting auto-battle in. However, when you look at this equation you will see something extremely unneeded.

Stamina = time - Stamina was designed to limit the actions of players, this falls under the same category as "cool-down timers"
If we look at ffxiv's current system, we have cool-down timers, and stamina involved at the same time.
This is a double whammy of limits, and only makes since, because players had the ability to affect how much stamina they generate over time.

Now if we apply Auto-battle, we have to loose one of these limits, mainly because we can no longer affect our stamina over time variable.
My honest opinion would be to loose the over used "cool-down timers".
Put everything into stamina, mainly because it's new, and original in comparison to other mmo's.

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stamina is not like cool down timers, cool down is one skill, cool down timers creates a system of use best attack or skill as often as possible, and mix in others, or rotations.
the best thing to do in a cooldown system is to always be doing something in rotation of most effective to least, and creating a loop.
in a stamina system the best thing to do is whatever you need to do in that moment, you can stack attacks, or wait, and suffer no loss in actions over time. in recast every second you do nothing, you waste actions, basically it makes reacting to the enemy, a bad thing, a better thing is to decide your rotation of skills best able to beat the enemy and do that forever till it dies, anytime you are out of range, or not doing an action, you are losing, so reacting to the enemy is a waste of time, whether it be chasing a moving enemy, repositioning for an advanatage, waiting for a skill, or waiting for a player to do something

the more i talk about it, the more it makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Anyway, I'd be fine if they just removed the stamina bar altogether and leave the cooldowns as it is.

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This, because regardless of how much you can heal/damage/gain enmity per second the fights will be rebalanced to counter this.

It would also make combat faster and give players more choices making it more interesting IMO.

If anything, it's clear that MMO's are moving away from slow paced battle and more towards real time and strategically dynamic encounters, I can only hope this is what the devs have in mind with the new battle system.

When a dungeon boss is about to do its TP move I want to see people run for their lives not stand there looking gormless.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

What about when you are stuck in a BR :P



I could live with this, although I would be curious to see how a fight with intense healing would turn out.

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stamina system allows being in a BR not to be a waste of damage or time. because you havent given up your damage, merely delayed it.

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Originally Posted by Physic

stamina system allows being in a BR not to be a waste of damage or time. because you havent given up your damage, merely delayed it.

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Thats not entirely true, many times I have been in BR's where people were slow in stacking their skills and my stamina bar completely filled up and stayed there for some time, at which point you are losing damage per second.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Eh, stamina is a rather crappy mechanic - it just makes you wait to do stuff you were gonna do anyway. We already have cooldown timers to prevent skill spamming. I'd still shoot out skull sunders, trammels, heavy trammels, and shriekers at the same rate with or without stamina bars, but it does get in the way of me wanting to use provoke, comrade in arms, and other skills when I want to.

Some of those problems, however, are more related to the stamina cost of some skills rather than the presence of the stamina bar itself. Stamina costs on certain skills like disorient, provoke, ambidexterity, Deflection, and others are just stupid.

It's a resource management system that does more to get in the way and inconvenience you, rather than actually make you think. Plus, I wonder if all those stamina checks doesn't add up to more lag...?

To think about how the removal of stamina would affect players, just think about how Speed Surge 2 affects the playstyle of lancers, and if everyone was able to use it. Wouldn't make much of a difference, if you ask me. Battle would probably be more fun.

Anyway, I'd be fine if they just removed the stamina bar altogether and leave the cooldowns as it is.

Alternatively, I'd be fine if they halved the stamina cost for all skills from what they currently are.

If it's true that the stamina calculations contribute to lag and unresponsiveness, then just get rid of it.

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without stamina, the best answer is always spam. any second you are not doing an action, is a waste of power. dodging aoe is only worth it rarely, waiting for a counter hit is dropping your dps, heck ill just say its dropping your aps because you could have been doing something other than waiting/moving/preparing

edit, it doesnt make people think because they dont want to think. Most people just spam, but that is not the most effective combat by far, you re going to take more damage, and probably do the same damage or less.