Proposed changes to "fix" tanking

After leveling both WAR and PLD to 50 and doing up to titan and tanking AK and WP many many many times there are a few mandatory changes to “fix” the discrepancy between warrior and paladin.
Below are the following changes to bring both classes in line with each other. I split them into changes to PLD and changes to WAR.

See next post.

PLD
1. PLD stun is off the GCD and on a 10 second coodlown. TP cost removed.
2. Provoke needs to force the target to attack the caster for 5 seconds after providing the top enmity +1 boost.
3. Radius on Flash and Circle of Scorn increased from 5yd to 8yd.
4. Potency on Circle of Scorn DoT increased by 50% (possibly doubled), Dot duration increased from 15 seconds to 25 seconds.
5. Threat multiplier on Shield Swipe increased to 3x (no longer making it a decrease in threat output).
6. Bulwark buff duration increased from 15 seconds to 20 seconds.

In my opinion, these changes will provide PLD with the necessary threat boost they sorely needed and the range on their AoE threat skills to bring them in line with WAR. With the increased threat multiplier on Shield Swipe, Bulwark’s duration increase will provide more potential threat outputs in addition to the mitigation. Circle of Scorn is quite lackluster given the long cooldown and short duration, the changes will provide it more punch and consistency.

WAR
1. WAR stun is not delayed by casting animation. Damage equal to PLD stun, TP cost removed, on a 10 second cooldown (yes, this makes the WAR and PLD stuns identical, as they should be because both classes are tanks).
2. WAR Overpower aoe damage delayed by animation removed.
3. Allow WAR to cross-class Rampart.
4. Storm's Eye debuff duration increased from 15 seconds to 24 (matching Maim’s buff duration, allowing the enhanced maim trait to actually do something).
5. 15% increase haling on infuriated buff moved to the Defiance skill passively.
6. Threat multiplier on Steel Cyclone increased to at least 3x (similar to Overpower).

WAR Cont.
7. Inner Beast additional effect of 1 second silence (similar to Spirits Within additional effect).
8. Berserk Pacification changed to “Fatigued”, 5 second duration debuff on the WAR,reducing damage of the WAR by 20% (being locked out of skills makes this almost useless without careful planning and preparation)
9. Mercy Stroke cooldown reduced to 60 seconds (30 with trait), potency dramatically increased to 350 (or maybe 400), and the heal proc if a killing blow reduced from 20% to 10% of maximum HP.

The WAR changes will give WAR the same stun/interrupt potential as PLD. The extra cooldown in Rampart will provide the little bit of extra mitigation they are lacking, while making the debuff from Storm’s Eye match Maim’s buff allows for the enhanced Maim trait to actually have a purpose. Steel Cyclone is extremely lackluster without an increase to its threat multiplier. The Mercy Stroke change will provide a proper execute that can actually land a killing blow, therefore the heal will proc more often and should be reduced accordingly; additionally, the reduced cooldown will allow it to be used at least once per pull/pack. Finally, the 15% healing boost moved to defiance will allow WAR to actually use and manage their Infuriate and Wrath on bosses rather than just using it once every 60 seconds when the Instant Infuriate is up. This will allow WAR to spend a GCD every 5th wrath on a non-TP costing skill reducing their TP consumption bringing it in line with PLD TP consumption.

Last Post

There are more changes for WAR simply because the fact of the matter is the class requires far more polishing and adjusting than PLD. After getting both classes to 50 and running dungeons with them, the PLD feels like a much more polished and complete tank, while WAR feels like it is getting there but not quite at the same level of PLD.

Any suggestions or changes to my proposals are more than welcome. Rather than people flaming each other and arguing about which is the better tank, I feel a proper discussion on how to make both classes more complete is a better alternative.
Both PLD and WAR need some tuning, neither is polished, and both can be adjusted.

Agree with shield swipe change. Its infuriating that the only skill we have which requires you to pay attention to use is a loss in threat generation.

Other than that... maybe some of the tweaks.. but both tanks will continue to be dps tanks. Right now pld is just warrior with low damage and a multiplier. I posted about it in my own thread, but I do sorely miss the complexity of 1.0 threat generation and the sense of control over the fight with 1.0 PLD's magic and abilities. I would really like to see the white magic put back into PLD. Though any change that means I'm not just spamming ROH combo would be nice.

As PLD, I haven't had any problems with aoe threat, and CoS is a free off gcd skill, so I'm not that worried about it being a little weak.

Am only in my early 40s but I definitely agree on Shield Swipe generating some hate, even if they had to lower the potency for a fair trade.

I agree tanks need instant interrupt off GCD, provoke should force taunt, shield swipe needs threat, and flash needs a larger radius.
Does Circle of Scorn attack cc targets? It seems like it shouldn't if it's a tank aoe instead of dps aoe.

What do you think of some other skills?
Should situational abilities stop the Halone combo?
Does Shield Lob generate enough threat?
Cover range is so short that I move and turn mobs to use it, which is usually bad.
Riot Blade combo is slow and drops threat to use it.

the only TWO changes will make war competitive with pld are
1
15% passive healing bonus to defiance
2
change inner beast's healing effect into shield with same potency.

and you mentioned one, which is not enough.

the rest of the changes wont have dramatic effect on tanking for war. and silence effect to inner beast? we dont need that AT ALL.

change Bulwark into the third weaponskill for Riot Blade combo.

currently Riot Blade combo is lacking, the only time you use it is when you oom which rarely happens and only happens when you run out of tp.

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Originally Posted by hola

change Bulwark into the third weaponskill for Riot Blade combo.

currently Riot Blade combo is lacking, the only time you use it is when you oom which rarely happens and only happens when you run out of tp.

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The Riot Blade combo leads into a different set of issues related to paladin tanking. Simply put, its an aggro imbalance.

Given that PLD and WAR weapons have equal damage, and both class's primary ST combos have equal hate mods, the raw aggro generation of both classes, in ST, should be equal.
Now when we apply tanking stances, PLD takes a 20% damage hit, WAR takes a 25% hit, IIRC. Now WAR also has Main, which is a fully maintainable 20% damage boost, which more than compensates for the additional 5% reduction over PLD.
This, plus WAR's combo chain potency being 150-200-280 vs PLD's 150-200-260, effectively makes a WAR generate more ST aggro than a PLD.

Now aoe aggro is far and away in WAR's favor, if you dont have people trying to sleep mobs left and right.
Overpower, the primary aoe spam ability for WAR costs 120 TP. This is worth 2 ticks of TP regen. Since WAR also has access to Flash, though with a small MP pool, they could alternate Overpower and Flash, regaining 60 TP after Overpower, another 60 after Flash, and repeat, as long as they have MP. Granted, this is an edge case where you'd NEED to generate aoe hate nonstop for a long time.

For PLD, we only have Flash. Our MP pool is about twice as big as WAR's... I think, dont have the exact numbers in front of me, but our MP regen is nowhere near enough to maintain Flash. At best, a PLD can Flash, Fast, Riot, and have regained (between Riot and MP regen), almost enough MP to do another Flash.
That means once we're out of MP, we can do 1 aoe hate ability every 3 gcd's, with no hate mod abilities inbetween. Compared to a WAR, who even with 0 MP, can do 1 aoe hate ability (Overpower) every 2 gcd's.

So, less damage, less ST aggro, less aoe aggro... Basically, if a WAR lets us tank, even in ST situations... we offer better cooldowns, nothing else.

I actually really like this idea.

I would supplement it by giving Riot Blade another additional combo effect that helps with mitigation.

Riot Blade
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Combo Action: Fast Blade
Combo Potency: 230
Combo Bonus: Restores MP,
Shield block the next magical or physical attack
Duration 1 second.

Then change Bulwark (the new 3rd combo in this chain) to

Bulwark
Smash the enemy with your shield with a potency of 100
Combo Action: Riot Blade
Combo Potency: 200
Combo Effect with Riot Blade: Increase block rate by 40%
Duration 5 seconds.

This would give PLD more of an active role in that they need to constantly evaluate whether more enmity is required (via Halone combo) or more mitigation is required (via Bulwark combo).

The idea is that you can time Riot Blade to help mitigate particularly damaging attacks that you know are coming, and that the buff from Bulwark is reduced in potency from it's original and the duration is low enough that you cant maintain 100% uptime on it even if you spam that combo. Starting a Halone combo will see your Bulwark wear off shortly after Savage Blade, leaving you without the buff for at least 10 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Jahaudant

I actually really like this idea.

I would supplement it by giving Riot Blade another additional combo effect that helps with mitigation.

"Shield Block the next magical or physical attack"
Duration 2 seconds

Then change Bulwark (the new 3rd combo in this chain) to
Smash the enemy with your shield
Potency 100
Combo Potency with Riot Blade 200
Combo Effect with Riot Blade:
Increase block rate by 40%
Duration 6 seconds.

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6sec is too short, it should be around 10sec

Some really good ideas. I like the idea of having an ability combo off of Riot Blade. Bulwark might not be my first choice (or the most balanced), but I like the idea nonetheless.

OP, if you use the edit function, you can make posts longer than 1000 characters rather than having to chain post.

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Originally Posted by Puresin

WAR
1. WAR stun is not delayed by casting animation. Damage equal to PLD stun, TP cost removed, on a 10 second cooldown (yes, this makes the WAR and PLD stuns identical, as they should be because both classes are tanks).
2. WAR Overpower aoe damage delayed by animation removed.
3. Allow WAR to cross-class Rampart.
4. Storm's Eye debuff duration increased from 15 seconds to 24 (matching Maim’s buff duration, allowing the enhanced maim trait to actually do something).
5. 15% increase haling on infuriated buff moved to the Defiance skill passively.
6. Threat multiplier on Steel Cyclone increased to at least 3x (similar to Overpower).
7. Inner Beast additional effect of 1 second silence (similar to Spirits Within additional effect).
8. Berserk Pacification changed to “Fatigued”, 5 second duration debuff on the WAR,reducing damage of the WAR by 20% (being locked out of skills makes this almost useless without careful planning and preparation)
9. Mercy Stroke cooldown reduced to 60 seconds (30 with trait), potency dramatically increased to 350 (or maybe 400), and the heal proc if a killing blow reduced from 20% to 10% of maximum HP.

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I agree with 1 to an extent, but I don't think it's that great of an idea to have 2 classes share the exact same skill. I think it would be much more effective to give the stun to MRD, make it instant, and reduce the CD and Stun Duration, and then make it a cross class skill. PAL aren't that pressured on cross class skills, and it would give more flavor to both classes, and allow Shield Bash to be modified into something more interesting. For example, a reactive skill like Haymaker, usable after you've blocked, could have some secondary effect.


100% agree on storm's eye. Currently having to alternate between Storm's Eye and Butchers Block every other combo is a little iffy, threatwise.

I disagree with Berserk Pacification. It's still a very potent ability. You only give up ~2 attacks which will average to 400 potentcy worth of attacks, but you gain a huge increase for 20 seconds. It puts you way ahead in general.

Mercy Stroke should be made into more of an execute. I would say leave the cooldown at 60 Seconds, but instead of a 200 potency attack only usable below 20% that heals if it kills, make it a 150 potency attack usable all the time. If the target is below 20% health make it a 450 potency attack, and if the target dies give the player the heal. This would make it worth taking for other classes now, as it currently isn't as a meager ~2 DPS increase over the course of a fight.

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Originally Posted by hola

6sec is too short, it should be around 10sec

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That would be so OP. Shield block is huge, and increasing block rate by 40% would be absurd. You would be talking going from 8% uptime on bulwark as a cooldown, to 66% uptime on bulwark as a weapon skill. At 40% additional block rate it would be an order of magnitude more effective than it is as a cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

So, less damage, less ST aggro, less aoe aggro... Basically, if a WAR lets us tank, even in ST situations... we offer better cooldowns, nothing else.

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A lot of this is off base.

PAL can easily keep up on single target enmity because they don't have to alternate between low enmity and high enmity combo. They get their necessary effect (10% reduced STR) from their enmity combo, and riot blade is only use for AOE tanking, basically. As a warrior you have to alternate: Butcher's Block -> Storm's Path -> Butcher's Block -> etc. This is significantly less enmity than just Rage of Halone -> Rage of Halone -> Rage of Halone. A WAR could theoretically do the same thing, but they wouldn't want to because our damage is tied to our self healing. Giving up 30% of the heals from Bloodbath and Inner Beast would leave the WAR very very vulnerable, and tax healers much more.

Point number 2 is that a WAR can't realistically just sit there and spam Overpower and Flash. You have to work in a Wrath building combo at least once every 30 seconds, which means 5 of those 30 seconds are dedicated to keeping up Infuriated, as letting it drop in any serious group tanking situation is really bad. Now, I don't know if this is true but it's my understanding that Riot Blade restores quite a bit of MP. If it restores enough to cast a Flash, that will put the classes pretty close on AOE enmity. The biggest problem will be in the future for paladins, because Flash enmity doesn't scale with attack power.

With that said, if your DPS are well geared, simply Overpower and Flash rotations are not enough to hold enmity against single target damage, it is enough to hold it versus aoe though.

Finally, PAL are almost always designated as main tank because aside from offering better cooldowns, they have the same effective health and are much easier to heal, in addition to having a significant degree of passive mitigation from using a shield. PAL are simply better tanks right now. AOE threat might have a slight edge for WAR, but damage mitigation is hugely in favor of PAL. Enmity isn't an issue for either job right now. The biggest thing is durability, which PAL have a huge advantage in.

If all this is accurate I have just come across terrible war tanks lol. I always steal single target threat from them.

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Originally Posted by hola

6sec is too short, it should be around 10sec

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I agree with this, in a game with a lower GCD 6s is viable (default 1.5s). In FF14 though, we use a 2.5s GCD so it should at least be 10s

I'd rather Circle of Scorn just give a massive chunk of enmity rather than a DoT - I haven't had the chance to use it yet, but it seems like it would be a nightmare to use when CC is involved.

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Originally Posted by Ecthorn

I agree with this, in a game with a lower GCD 6s is viable (default 1.5s). In FF14 though, we use a 2.5s GCD so it should at least be 10s

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No.

At 6 seconds if you are spamming the new Bulwark combo you will only drop your 40% shield block rate buff for 1.5 seconds however, you also gain a 100% chance to block the next attack via new Riot Blade, which will trigger pretty much just as your buff falls off.

The idea is that you need to continuously spam this combo to maintain high mitigation but doing so is impossible because it generates very little enmity. You need to drop your mitigation buff to generate enmity then switch between the two combos depending on your situation. It's meant to promote a more active tanking role with actual decision making. Giving it a 10 second duration would not only be really overpowered, but it would just be the same mindless tanking experience XIV currently is as you are effectively removing any active decision making.

Edit:

In fact, thinking over this again I would probably further reduce the duration to 5 seconds, and reduce Riot Blades auto-block to a duration of 1 second. Edited first post.