EXPLOIT: Amdapor Keep

Dear SE,

Some groups have found a way to skip all trash mobs in Amdapor's Keep.

The tank runs to the he boss chamber while holding hate from all mobs on the way. The team follows him into the chamber and lets the tank die on a safe distance from them. The mobs run back to their original position and the healer resurrects the tank.

This is possible for every single boss and reduces Amdapor Keep's difficulty and completion time to 20-30 minutes.

Could this be fixed please?

Thanks!

Furio

Well - you'll also loose points for not killing all the mobs as well though but indeed this should be amended to prevent the exploit. Also - do the "raised" deads count to the overall dead count? Because if yes then you'd loose the extra bonus for no / low amount of the deads upon completion as well doing this.

It doesn't matter if it reduces point or not, doing this comes with an obvious GREAT advantage and should be fixed, EVERYBODY is doing this right now, and it's very profitable considering the tokens/loot drops.

I guess it can be done in any instance, since when someone aggroes a mob in a dungeon, it doesn't aggro the whole party (as, in my opinion, should be).

I'd be happy if they left it as it is, as long as the loss was great enough (for example, make EXP useful somehow past 50, or allow for decent drops from trash mobs.

I've been wondering for a while how to make money at 50, since I dinged I've been slowly (but steadily) been losing to repairs. If trash mobs dropped noticeably more money this would also be great.

Other things that can be done: Make trash a bit easier to kill, add a lockout time to the dungeon that reduces for every trash mob you kill, etc.

Yeah, this should be fixed. As simple as agroing whole party. People are doing this everywhere now.

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Originally Posted by Vektrat

since I dinged I've been slowly (but steadily) been losing to repairs.

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Why not to level up your DoH classes instead to be able to make repairs yourself?

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Originally Posted by HEC

Why not to level up your DoH classes instead to be able to make repairs yourself?

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This is something I wanted to check, I've already started leveling my DoH alignment, but I didn't expect repairs to be almost-free (if not free), I thought the only advantage was being able to repair from anywhere, thanks for the tip :)

A nice fix, I think, for this would be to simply scale the drop rates with the number of mobs still alive in a dungeon. If 100% of the trash mobs are alive, there's a 0% drop rate for anything. Will people still skip sections, perhaps, but that reduced chance might be enough to offset the speed of completion with the chance of a drop.

Since now there aren't huge benefits of speed running dungeons, aside from running more in less time, if the drops scaled in a way that negated the extra runs per hour then time factors would be removed all together.

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Originally Posted by Vektrat

This is something I wanted to check, I've already started leveling my DoH alignment, but I didn't expect repairs to be almost-free (if not free), I thought the only advantage was being able to repair from anywhere, thanks for the tip :)

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Well - you need various material to repair it for "free" - some you'd have collected already, other would need to be gathered by DoL classes - basically - you'd have your own small independent economy running.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

A nice fix, I think, for this would be to simply scale the drop rates with the number of mobs still alive in a dungeon. If 100% of the trash mobs are alive, there's a 0% drop rate for anything. Will people still skip sections, perhaps, but that reduced chance might be enough to offset the speed of completion with the chance of a drop.

Since now there aren't huge benefits of speed running dungeons, aside from running more in less time, if the drops scaled in a way that negated the extra runs per hour then time factors would be removed all together.

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Actually, there's quite the benefit. The dungeon pays out about 60-80 Philosophy Tomes and 40 Mythology Tomes per run. The Relic quests become much easier with this speed run method due to the tomes received in a short span of time.

That being said, I dunno why else you would farm it. Gear drops are alright if you still have your lv45 blues on. Most, if not all, gear from dungeons bind so you can't sell em. Only way you're making money off of this is if the gear is convertable and you manage to soulbound, convert, and get one of the rarer materia required for Relic Quests (Ex: My server currently has Quicktongue III, required for SCH Relic, at about 95-100k a pop).

I called it "Smart" not exploit.

In all fairness, SE did kind of design this kind of poorly making only one dungeon that isn't Binding Coil of Bahamut the best access to Mythology tokens. No other dungeon gives them and the other method of getting them is a minuscule amount from primals in comparison. When you are spamming the same dungeon again and again and again non-stop, you are inevitably going to get tired of it's aspects and find the quickest way possible.

There are better ways this could have been approached. They could of made Wanderer's Palace give mythology tokens also, or add a feature that Duty Finder picks a random lv.50 dungeon, but gives more mythology tokens as a reward. Giving variety helps things feel less tedious. WoW end game when farming valor points, has at least 3-4 dungeons to run with Random giving more if you choose it and it does help the process feel less tedious.

Maybe it wouldn't completely resolve the issue. However, the reason exploits like these happen to begin with is because of how tedious the task is. They simply need to add variety and features to "help" prevent these things. They kind of stepped on their own foot making one dungeon (a long one when killing all mobs mind you) the go to place to get mythology tokens.

I personally have gotten sick of the dungeon already and the game has only been out a week. I would of loved that other dungeons offered the tokens and SE has created better incentives to play a variety of dungeons end game instead of just one. To me, this is a major flaw for end game.

here's another thread in hopes of this coming to the attention of square enix.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...T-Amdapor-Keep

maybe we can get a response from them...

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Originally Posted by TenshiHauru

Actually, there's quite the benefit. The dungeon pays out about 60-80 Philosophy Tomes and 40 Mythology Tomes per run. The Relic quests become much easier with this speed run method due to the tomes received in a short span of time.

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That's part of the scaling drop rates for would play in, the less mobs you clear the smaller the rewards, including Tomes, so if you clear only half a dungeon you get half the Tomes. It's not to say speed isn't good, just that skipping sections is bad.

I personally like it. This strat has a major flaw in it though. If everyone dies you have to run through again and again making it difficult to really use with people who are new.

So you want to change how a dungeon was intentionally designed by the developers because it lets people get items fast? You all are probably the ones who have tried doing this and have failed the run multiple times.

This design option for skipping mobs was inherited from FFXI where you could have entire raids sneak or go invisible through an entire raid and only fight bosses. It was made to be like this.

Skipping dungeon trash mobs is a time-honored tradition in MMOs.

There is no reason to "fix" this, because there is nothing to fix.

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Originally Posted by Illya

Skipping dungeon trash mobs is a time-honored tradition in MMOs.

There is no reason to "fix" this, because there is nothing to fix.

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If this situation was intended by the devs, then they wouldn't have bothered putting in 'trash' mobs at all.

I like the idea of scaling rewards based on dungeon clearance. I would alter it so that it is based on clearance for that section of the dungeon to the chest, since various dungeons have sporadic chest placement. I also think it would help to scale rewards based on how many player deaths occur. ie - more deaths, less rewards.

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Originally Posted by Kahri

If this situation was intended by the devs, then they wouldn't have bothered putting in 'trash' mobs at all.

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Did you ever play Tera? The dungeons in that game have plenty of trash mobs which are always meant to be skipped. In this case, it's because the Koreans love skipping trash in their MMOs so the developers gave them what they wanted.

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Originally Posted by Illya

Did you ever play Tera? The dungeons in that game have plenty of trash mobs which are always meant to be skipped. In this case, it's because Koreans love skipping trash so the developers gave them what they wanted.

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(dons her subligar) This isn't Tera. This ... is ... SPARTA FINAL FANTASY! (shoves Illya into the deep dark pit)

Look another exploit in FFXIV 1.0 Dzemael Darkhold 15 mins run!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiTgSNsjMXw

Please, this is all intentional from the dev. Low level dungeons are meant for exp grinding, thats why they fixed some of the low level dungeons during beta. The high level dungeons, like we all know, Amdapor Keep, all thrash mob gives out nothing but consume more time. You only have two options, either fight the whole wave and clear every single one of it, or take the risk to train the mobs to the designated area. Happens in so many MMOs and even the previous FFXIV 1.0. Not an exploit at all. If you can't find a party to do it, go with option A and fight the whole wave. Nothing will change.

Highest Level at 31 and complaining about an exploit used in a Level 50 Dungeon??? Oh right...probably scared that by the time he could use it, it might not be possible anymore, so he rather complains sooner than later, so others can't use it too much before he could...since...it gives them an advantage over him.

PS: This is not an exploit...this has been done in various MMOs over the course of time and it was not just popular in many of them, especially in FFXIV 1.0 it was NECCESARRY for Speedruns who were implementd with JUST THAT in mind by SE.

The reason I don't really like these 'speed runs' is because I have a quest to do this dungeon and every time I join a team to do it the little 'One or more members of the party haven't done this before' and everyone goes 'aw hell there's a noob' and then they all quit.

It didn't really bother me the first two times it happened... but it took me seven or eight rounds of this crap before I had a team agree to do it with me, and I ran out of MP on the first boss because regen x2 + stoneskin and a couple heals wasn't enough to keep them alive (had to spam cure II and Medica II), then I got pissed because before one of the dps quit he told me that I was a sucky healer. (Honestly I had an easier time with Ultima Weapon, and the other healer on the team died at the beginning of that fight).

After that I tried the duty finder for four more rounds of people quitting at the beginning before I just gave up on it. The most infuriating part is that I know how to do the dungeon; I've read three guides and watched about a dozen YouTube videos explaining what to do and how to do it for just about any situation that could possibly happen in Amdapor.

The solution I would implement would be to scale it based on % of attempts completed vs % abandoned- with 100% reward being at like 80% completion and maybe up to 150% for 100% completion rate (reseting weekly so people don't get stuck with a bad completing record). This would encourage people to complete the dungeon while allowing trash mobs to be skipped, and force people to include those of us who are new to the dungeon more while still allowing for people to quit if things clearly arent working.

Also, I would have this bonus apply to completely random teams. People joining as a group of 2 to 4 should still be eligible for a bit of a bonus, but the more pre-set the team members are, the less the bonus would be.

Some people just want to watch the world burn.

They could add party enmity in the dungeons and the mobs won't go back until none is standing anymore.

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Originally Posted by Kahri

(dons her subligar) This isn't Tera. This ... is ... SPARTA FINAL FANTASY! (shoves Illya into the deep dark pit)

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I wish I could downvote you

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Originally Posted by DrPancakes

I wish I could downvote you

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I know how you feel, babe.

people gonna complain for anything

HOw about before they even look at this page, Fix there servers so ppl can log in and see this dungeon? Compensation for all the wasted time trying to log in or being stuck logged in.

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

Highest Level at 31 and complaining about an exploit used in a Level 50 Dungeon??? Oh right...probably scared that by the time he could use it, it might not be possible anymore, so he rather complains sooner than later, so others can't use it too much before he could...since...it gives them an advantage over him.

PS: This is not an exploit...this has been done in various MMOs over the course of time and it was not just popular in many of them, especially in FFXIV 1.0 it was NECCESARRY for Speedruns who were implementd with JUST THAT in mind by SE.

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Just for the sake of being accurate can you please provide a dev and/or CSR statement stating one way or another?

Thanks,

-J

I would like to offer all those above who keep saying things along the lines of 'if you can do it, the devs must've intended it' an example of what, I think, proves why using death as a strategy isn't what the devs intended.

Behests.

Anyone and everyone can pass a Behest. Literally. If you die you just respawn and respawn and respawn again. Technically it's very simple to win a Behest by simply not caring about dying and just kinda zerg rushing the scenario with your death respawns. You'll still get rewarded for completion and you'll still get it ticked off on your duty finder.

So can it be said this is what the devs intended?

NO!

For three simple reasons:
- the devs built in an individually tailored NPC instructor to give you very direct tips on how to be successful in each particular Behest;
- if your group, together, follows those instructions you're highly likely to do so without any deaths;
- if (a) you are a first timer to a Behest and (b) successfully beat it without any party knockouts/deaths you will get a HUGE bonus to the exp & gil reward received (something like an additional 4x the initially stated bonus).

The devs construct those individual Behests in a particular way to reward us for playing together as a group, for following instructions, and finally - for avoiding death -.

You can still technically pass the Behests without doing so by not giving a shit about dying - you'll still go on to access Behest 'end game' - but if you technically win by zerging the Behest mechanic in this way, you haven't done what the devs intended and you don't get the massive bonus reward for it.

Behests are the devs way of trying to help players understand how to work together as a party, therefore the way they structure the rewards in Behests is the way they want you to play the game.

Succeeding without player knockout/death is a sign of individual and group skill.

Succeeding by manipulating an easy win via the use of player knockout/death as a strategy:
- (a) does not require skill; and
- (b) is not how the devs intended you to play the game.

This bug is very hard for SE to fix since they need to fix the mechanics that would adjust more than just Ampador Keep since they probabaly use a set of rules for different mob mechanics etc that would in turn affect other areas. (its very common to do this because its much easier to change if the code is the same).

If SE does fix it, its not going to be right away, and probably not for a long time actually. People used to train in Haukke and SE changed dungeon mobs to never leash, and that implementation stayed in 1.0 with Ampador keep. That WAS their fix for this behavior soooo i don't know if they really know of anyway to stop it even.

Pushing this thread to the top as well. Already got pushed out of another game by people demanding I run instances this way with them.

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Originally Posted by Jackel

Just for the sake of being accurate can you please provide a dev and/or CSR statement stating one way or another?

Thanks,

-J

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There is no Dev Comment on this. In 1.0 you had to do 17min Speedruns to get the Item you need for Relic Weapons. 17Min Speedruns REQUIRED you to skip almost all the mobs except for where it was neccesarry to spawn the gate to the next part of the dungeon. If it wasn't intended by SE...why would they implement a quest that requires you to do that, or otherwise you wouldn't meet the timelimit? It's simple logic xD

PS: In FFXI you did the exact same thing in Dynamis dozens of times, especially in Beaucedine Glacier. It was done for years and SE never said anything about it, against it, or even intended to change it. And they did the same thing in 1.0
So why should it be any different in ARR?

If you want to have any proof for that. Just google Dzemael Darkhold Speedrun, Aurum Vale Speedrun, or Cutters Cry Speedrun.

To anyone who has trouble being taken through the dungeon in Duty Finder. There are like-minded people on your Server for sure. So either try to find them, or make friends in the game. If you're 50 and beat the storyline, how the hell did you not meet anyone on the way you actually like to play with? This is an MMO after all.

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Succeeding without player knockout/death is a sign of individual and group skill.

Succeeding by manipulating an easy win via the use of player knockout/death as a strategy:
- (a) does not require skill; and
- (b) is not how the devs intended you to play the game.

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Doing something in 15minutes, where other take 60 is the superior sign of skill ;)
You still have to beat the bosses and those are the ones that screw players, not the trash mobs. Anyone can get through the trash mobs, but not anyone can get past the bosses, especially with only taking 2-3minutes per boss.