Solution: NM conflict between hardcore and casual

Just a random thought.

Split all(or some) NM into 2 tier.

Casual NM: Pop condition and toughness are similar to what we have currently in XIV. Drop a normal version of the equipment.

Hardcore NM: Pop condition like FFXI: long timer, lottery, killing placeholder... drop a glorified version of the equipment. Significantly tougher relative to the level of the drop. Give title/additional achievement.

normal version of the equipment: provide nice gear for casual gamers, better stat than craft-able stuff, decent looking.

glorified version of the equipment: provide special gear for hardcore gamer, marginally better than NQ stat-wise, but looks way better with possibly additional visual effect. provide extra materia slot for hardcore upgrade.

EQUIPMENTS OF EITHER VERSION ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
You HAVE to drop one in order to get the other one.

Casual NM+NQ= Good equipment for whoever willing to pay the small effort.
Hardcore NM+HQ=Provide time challenging NM, fulfill scene of accomplishment, and perform marginally better in battle. Give extra push factor to be more hardcore with extra slot for materia upgrade.

Hope this would satisfy both side.

Timotheus Raphael, Saronia

From below,

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Originally Posted by Timotheus

as the title stated, it is just a solution for the totally bi-polarized playerbase. if you are still totally holding on your own base without thinking of another side, i don't think it would do any good.

FYI, if you read my other post, i am totally against any kind of time wasting.

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this is a common sense idea. unfortunately the entitlement class will come in screaming that they are being denied content.

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Pop condition like FFXI: long timer, lottery, killing placeholder...

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All of these pop conditions are disappearing from XI soon.

Also, Time wasted waiting for a mob should not dictate an item being more powerful. Difficulty in the actual fight should.

I'd rather see Cap Level versions of the NM's accessible through a system that you can only get access too by participating in End Game first. With limitations for the total fight. IE 30 Minute Max, Can't change skills while in the arena, no HP/MP regen while in the Arena even when unengaged. Enmity affects the whole arena so casting a cure spell across the field on a team mate will still generate hate if the mob is kited. Etc.

Then once you kill the mob you get access to a special drop for the person who paid for the fight and a bunch of extra items for the extra participants.

IE ( http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...stion-Gob-Shop )

make current mid-lvl NM cant be claimed with party that consist of R35++ player....then u got the real challenge

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Also, Time wasted waiting for a mob should not dictate an item being more powerful. Difficulty in the actual fight should.

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it's a hard concept for some people to grasp.

I really can't understand what peoples problems are with the current NM's and their respawn rate. They are supposed to be mid level NM's and you see people crying that they are too easy because they can solo them at R50??? How about you try at R30. As for the respawn times, how is waiting hours on end for it to pop "hardcore" and makes you a better player, it just seems a waste of time to me when I could be doing something else, it does not require skill to sit there are wait for an NM to pop. The drop rates aren't 100% so that is fine too, I really can't see what the problem is with these NM's they do exactly what they are supposed to do.

As others have said Level Capped fights are the answer for a challenge much like BCNM's were in FFXI

Stopped reading when you said casual players deserve "hardcore lite" equipment.
Or Equipment -1

Not going to work that way. Give casual players full access to THAT gear, or you can find another game hardcores.
3 hours a day unlocks the full game for everyone or you walk.

as the title stated, it is just a solution for the totally bi-polarized playerbase. if you are still totally holding on your own base without thinking of another side, i don't think it would do any good. NOr the smartarse attitude would.

FYI, if you read my other post, i am totally against any kind of time wasting.

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Originally Posted by Timotheus

as the title stated, it is just a solution for the totally bi-polarized playerbase. if you are still totally holding on your own base without thinking of another side, i don't think it would do any good.

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My system allows for participation by Casuals and Hardcores. The Hardcores just get to do it more often. But everyone gets benefits from Participating.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

My system allows for participation by Casuals and Hardcores. The Hardcores just get to do it more often. But everyone gets benefits from Participating.

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I like your system as well.

I still fail to see how more time=better gear, when it should equate, more time=get your gear faster, if a full time and a part time employee both wanted to save for a car and it take the pt employee a year longer to save, is it fair that the salesman gives him an inferior car for the same amount of money? I paid for the game same as anyone else, somedays I have an hour, some 12 hours, also I have played mmo's for 12 years and dont push/grind like i used to, and when I have finally get to a level or met the preres of my goal, I want the content to be open to me, its only fair to anyone who puts in the work, if it take that person 5 days or 5 years. and when I say work I mean actual fighting, grinding.questing and other challenges.... not camping for 12 hours cause thats not work and its not hardcore to do such.

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Originally Posted by Kimowar

I still fail to see how more time=better gear, when it should equate, more time=get your gear faster, if a full time and a part time employee both wanted to save for a car and it take the pt employee a year longer to save, is it fair that the salesman gives him an inferior car for the same amount of money? I paid for the game same as anyone else, somedays I have an hour, some 12 hours, also I have played mmo's for 12 years and dont push/grind like i used to, and when I have finally get to a level or met the preres of my goal, I want the content to be open to me, its only fair to anyone who puts in the work, if it take that person 5 days or 5 years. and when I say work I mean actual fighting, grinding.questing and other challenges.... not camping for 12 hours cause thats not work and its not hardcore to do such.

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I dont see it either, but thats the point of view from part of the playerbase

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Stopped reading when you said casual players deserve "hardcore lite" equipment.
Or Equipment -1

Not going to work that way. Give casual players full access to THAT gear, or you can find another game hardcores.
3 hours a day unlocks the full game for everyone or you walk.

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You do have access.

And "hardcores" are the ones that are going to be paying for your content. Sorry, it is the way of casuals to not sub a game continuously for long periods. They take breaks and hop from game to game... it's the hardcores that give the constant supply of cash. You telling hardcores to walk is the same thing as telling SE to shut down not long after they start charging.

Also, I'm getting really sick and tired of the fallacious argument about waiting. Sorry, with lottery NMs, you aren't just waiting doing nothing. I'm killing things.

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Originally Posted by Timotheus

I dont see it either, but thats the point of view from part of the playerbase

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And that's the part of the player base without enough numbers to be dictating that they get the best gear and everyone who can't play their style gets sloppy seconds.

Put the "hardcore" difficult fights in the "casual" arenas and give the casual base hard fights with the best drops. Who cares if a minority complain that they no longer look special and epic if all the casual players can now play the biggest class of content, a class that was once only reserved for them?

I sure don't care, and there's not enough of them to create a game environment where anyone should care how bad not looking rare makes them feel.

Give them a relic weapon to drop 1750 million gil on or something. Bots and cheats will probably end up getting them, but it's not like the hardcores weren't bots and cheats in XI anyway. Item dupers, dynamis fleehackers, fly dat removers...the whole nine yards, anything they could do they did do to separate themselves from the "masses."

IMO the "casual" base should not tolerate any player who wants them under their thumbs in the game, and they have the power to keep them from doing it.

Put the challenging content aimed at "hardcores" in convenient access mechanics aimed at "casuals." Then we'll see who'se REALLY rare in the game.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

You do have access.

And "hardcores" are the ones that are going to be paying for your content. Sorry, it is the way of casuals to not sub a game continuously for long periods. They take breaks and hop from game to game... it's the hardcores that give the constant supply of cash. You telling hardcores to walk is the same thing as telling SE to shut down not long after they start charging.

Also, I'm getting really sick and tired of the fallacious argument about waiting. Sorry, with lottery NMs, you aren't just waiting doing nothing. I'm killing things.

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To every hardcore who makes this hackneyed claim that the game depends on them, no. You just think it does, which is the entire problem with your whole personal fable you have going on there. You're optional. You're minority. You don't keep the lights on in *any* mmo. Casuals do.

Hardcores and their nonsense were tolerated when MMOs were new and fresh and epic and ohhh look at that epic player he's GLOWING i want to glow TOO!

We've ceased to be impressed by your inordinate ability to go to Fafnir on an egg timer.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

You do have access.

And "hardcores" are the ones that are going to be paying for your content. Sorry, it is the way of casuals to not sub a game continuously for long periods. They take breaks and hop from game to game... it's the hardcores that give the constant supply of cash. You telling hardcores to walk is the same thing as telling SE to shut down not long after they start charging.

Also, I'm getting really sick and tired of the fallacious argument about waiting. Sorry, with lottery NMs, you aren't just waiting doing nothing. I'm killing things.

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Sorry Kaeden, cant agree on this one

Its actualy the hardcores who are "game hopping" looking for that launch game with 10 years of content on day 1 that they can finaly join(it still hasnt been made obviously and never will)

You of course get some who stay behind also, but a majority of the hoppers are hardcores.
The rest of them are the idiots looking for the wow killer who abandon the game as soon as they find out that it isnt.
And the remainder are those who still dont know what an MMO is about despite having been in several of them

I like the OP's idea.

Just cap the current NM already.

Also please, no camping or fight over the claim. Instantiate/phase them already.

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Originally Posted by Nipa

Just cap the current NM already.

Also please, no camping or fight over the claim. Instantiate/phase them already.

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Nay.. there has to be some competition..

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Also, Time wasted waiting for a mob should not dictate an item being more powerful. Difficulty in the actual fight should.

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This right here. We don't want the XI system of if you have TH/Flee you stand a better chance. I think the fight should be the important and fun part, not how long you can stare at a screen waiting for something to pop. I like your idea. But I do like the idea of mixing it up and having some quick pops and some longer pops, but only if there was some way to make it very random. I must admit I have this fanciful idea of being able to see this huge dragon flying in the sky that can appear in any zone and there's some way you can summon it down to fight it :D

time can test one's patience, which most of us don't have... so technically speaking it can count as a challenge ^.^

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Originally Posted by Mugiwara

time can test one's patience, which most of us don't have... so technically speaking it can count as a challenge ^.^

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Time is an asset. Wasting my time and paying children and people with nothing better to do with theirs for blowing it on waiting for something that isn't there in a game and claiming something so no one else can and in the process make yourself look prettier than others before they look pretty is no longer the genre.

So the adrenaline junkies feel alive for 10 minutes after they claim an overcamped, pointlessly bottlenecked NM and get an undersupplied, market-whored piece of gear that they can hold over someone's head and make millions off of or look more special than they actually are in. To give them that 10 minutes of feeling important, you have to make the game world a pain in the ass for everyone else, and they are not worth it. They're just not worth developing conent for and designing the game around. Ditch the NM hunters. Make everything R/E so they're not out there 8 hours a day standing there, keeping everyone else from getting items so they can sell them for ridiculous amounts of money. It's over. We tried that. Leaping boots 4 million gil. Fail. Absolute horrible waste of life, that system.

If SE chooses to reward the kinds of players who need to honestly get their priorities straight in this life, the game's going to fare worse than FFXI in its most ridiculous days. Without the magical draw of a new FF MMO, the only people who will play that are the players you wish you had never catered to in the first place.

Any player who petitions for a system where the primary entertainment and draw of the content is for you to get what would have otherwise gone to someone else should be backhanded, and sarcastically told thanks but no thanks. They'll kill your game if you let them, because the only thing they care about is to feel special at any cost. They crave power and notoriety that they are ultimately inept at getting, which is why they try to get it in a MMO instead of a more appropriate or useful venue.

You don't play strategy RPGs for the jumping. You don't play shooters for the puzzles. You do not play MMORPGs to compete. Go play Madden if you want to compete. You'll probably get your ass beat.

kaeden again your wrong on all accounts. casuals don't game jump as much as you think. And infact only do when they can't do content in a game.... Want me to remove that stick? i bet it really hurts.

these types of suggestions are the ones fueling the fighting. You guys are pretty much treating this when the US had segragation laws.
Where blacks and whites had seperate schools etc. Why should players get seperate content. All it is doing is giving the "hardcore" more content since they can do either or when a "casual" can only do 1.

Sorry but seperating content isn;t the way to go. We donlt need segragation, it never works out well.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

kaeden again your wrong on all accounts. casuals don't game jump as much as you think. And infact only do when they can't do content in a game.... Want me to remove that stick? i bet it really hurts.

these types of suggestions are the ones fueling the fighting. You guys are pretty much treating this when the US had segragation laws.
Where blacks and whites had seperate schools etc. Why should players get seperate content. All it is doing is giving the "hardcore" more content since they can do either or when a "casual" can only do 1.

Sorry but seperating content isn;t the way to go. We donlt need segragation, it never works out well.

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and neither does catering to one group and pushing a full group of people away from you. that is bad business no matter which side is catered to and which side is pushed away.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

and neither does catering to one group and pushing a full group of people away from you. that is bad business no matter which side is catered to and which side is pushed away.

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which is what the "hardcores" are doing.
i'm on the side that just wants to have fun witn any and every content in the game and for everyone to have fun w/o seperation beyween 2 groups.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

which is what the "hardcores" are doing.
i'm on the side that just wants to have fun witn any and every content in the game and for everyone to have fun w/o seperation beyween 2 groups.

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i do play alot at this time, but do not classify myself as hardcore. if you can enjoy any and every bit of content now you would get bored which is what the group that plays alot whether hardcore or otherwise are doing now. i have people in my group that plays as little as 2-3 hours a day just in the evening after school or work that already have multiple r50 classes and have beaten every high level nm many times. how boring do you think it is for those people that have an already easy mob become even easier.

i am not saying i want mobs that pop once a day or anything, but i am saying i want tougher fights. in this game either you have a mob that you can easily beat or you have a mob you have no chance in beating. they have very little grey area. if you consistently beat the hardest mob there is for you to beat at your level, but have no mobs that are a little tougher to test your skills against it becomes boring.

like i said i am not jumping on the hardcores or casuals. i don't mind the every 15 min or so pops or anything like that and do not mind the 3-5 minute spawns for the r30 group, but i do hate the fact of nerfing the only higher level mobs that were already too easy to defeat. i am glad to see other groups getting stuff to do and content added, but dislike a group getting left out. this is what i was refering to.

I'm sorry, but how much challenge are you looking for to aquire rank 25-35 gear? As the game goes on and the cap goes up, more items will be released and it will become harder to aquire. When you figure out how to do it and then succeed, congradulate yourself on being "hardcore". Why do people find it necessary to waste days on end for an item that in all reality wouldn't make that much of a difference? It's not like SE is going to add a freaking missle launcher drop for your days of endless camping... People need to grow up and let thier character's be measured by your actions and reputation, instead of a "shiney +1 omg I am better then everyone but really i'm a total douche".

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Originally Posted by Yisi

People need to grow up and let thier character's be measured by your actions and reputation, instead of a "shiney +1 omg I am better then everyone but really i'm a total douche".

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So that's the essence of the issue. A lot of these players would be out of a job if actions and reputation of the player superceded those of the barbie doll. They want their personality and actions to have as little to do with their being accepted as possible, for the obvious reason that no one would choose to associate with them if their gear and their job were more common. So many terrible people, let alone terrible players, gained acceptance through riding bad mechanics in FFXI.

You all know the black mages in 2005 who made an Asperger's kid look like Nelson Mandela. Those are the kinds of players who constantly petition for elite bottlenecks. They know they aren't accepted otherwise.

Haha my profile picture finally went eggy.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Stopped reading when you said casual players deserve "hardcore lite" equipment.
Or Equipment -1

Not going to work that way. Give casual players full access to THAT gear, or you can find another game hardcores.
3 hours a day unlocks the full game for everyone or you walk.

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Let's have our chars start @ 99 and in the best gear in the game too! I only have 3 mins to play, I deserve it all too!

I'm not hardcore at all. Games become boring when everyone has the same gear and accomplishments, I like looking up to people with insane things done and cool stuff. I LIKE seeing things I'll never(or take a long time 99.99% of the time) get but other players will. It gives me goals and things to do

Me having the same gear as everyone, including extreme hardcores = boring game. I get bored fast and have nothing to do. Ex: WOW, rift.

I started FFXI in 2003ish. I didn't finish/start COP until like 2008/2009. I didn't get any end game gear until then either, did I complain? Did I quit? No. I wanted the gear badly, I wanted haidate, senju, perdu, usukane boots, I wanted rajas, I wanted sea access, I wanted to do limbus and stuff. I didn't complain, I didn't whine, I still had plenty of things to do and keep me occupied. Eventually, I got around to doing it all, and getting everything I wanted. When I completed COP, I had a great feeling inside of me, I felt like I earned something, like I accomplished something. Same thing with most of my gear, I felt like I EARNED IT and it felt great.

As a casual player, I don't want stuff handed to me. When things are too easy, too accessible, too casual, when everyone has the same things, the game feels old, stale, boring. There are no accomplishments, there is no earning everything. Giving everyone everything is dumb, and horrible. it takes away the joys of accomplishment and earning things. The game becomes boring very fast when you have no goals to aim for. I wonder how hardcore players feel? They must get bored so fast.

I'M CASUAL AND I WANT HARDCORE CONTENT, WEIRD HUH?

Edit: My LS does events like twice a week, for 3 hours, 6 hours total of the week. We kill the level 50 NM's multiple times and the fights are a joke, and we get drops, and gear. How much more casual do you want this game to be? 6 hours a week and access to ALL the content already, I mean seriously?

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Let's have our chars start @ 99 and in the best gear in the game too! I only have 3 mins to play, I deserve it all too!

I'm not hardcore at all. Games become boring when everyone has the same gear and accomplishments, I like looking up to people with insane things done and cool stuff. I LIKE seeing things I'll never(or take a long time 99.99% of the time) get but other players will. It gives me goals and things to do

Me having the same gear as everyone, including extreme hardcores = boring game. I get bored fast and have nothing to do. Ex: WOW, rift.

I started FFXI in 2003ish. I didn't finish/start COP until like 2008/2009. I didn't get any end game gear until then either, did I complain? Did I quit? No. I wanted the gear badly, I wanted haidate, senju, perdu, usukane boots, I wanted rajas, I wanted sea access, I wanted to do limbus and stuff. I didn't complain, I didn't whine, I still had plenty of things to do and keep me occupied. Eventually, I got around to doing it all, and getting everything I wanted. When I completed COP, I had a great feeling inside of me, I felt like I earned something, like I accomplished something. Same thing with most of my gear, I felt like I EARNED IT and it felt great.

As a casual player, I don't want stuff handed to me. When things are too easy, too accessible, too casual, when everyone has the same things, the game feels old, stale, boring. There are no accomplishments, there is no earning everything. Giving everyone everything is dumb, and horrible. it takes away the joys of accomplishment and earning things. The game becomes boring very fast when you have no goals to aim for. I wonder how hardcore players feel? They must get bored so fast.

I'M CASUAL AND I WANT HARDCORE CONTENT, WEIRD HUH?

Edit: My LS does events like twice a week, for 3 hours, 6 hours total of the week. We kill the level 50 NM's multiple times and the fights are a joke, and we get drops, and gear. How much more casual do you want this game to be? 6 hours a week and access to ALL the content already, I mean seriously?

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I would have to agreed, this games feels like Wizards 101 sometimes, I hope it gets better, I hope...

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Time is an asset. Wasting my time and paying children and people with nothing better to do with theirs for blowing it on waiting for something that isn't there in a game and claiming something so no one else can and in the process make yourself look prettier than others before they look pretty is no longer the genre.

So the adrenaline junkies feel alive for 10 minutes after they claim an overcamped, pointlessly bottlenecked NM and get an undersupplied, market-whored piece of gear that they can hold over someone's head and make millions off of or look more special than they actually are in. To give them that 10 minutes of feeling important, you have to make the game world a pain in the ass for everyone else, and they are not worth it. They're just not worth developing conent for and designing the game around. Ditch the NM hunters. Make everything R/E so they're not out there 8 hours a day standing there, keeping everyone else from getting items so they can sell them for ridiculous amounts of money. It's over. We tried that. Leaping boots 4 million gil. Fail. Absolute horrible waste of life, that system.

If SE chooses to reward the kinds of players who need to honestly get their priorities straight in this life, the game's going to fare worse than FFXI in its most ridiculous days. Without the magical draw of a new FF MMO, the only people who will play that are the players you wish you had never catered to in the first place.

Any player who petitions for a system where the primary entertainment and draw of the content is for you to get what would have otherwise gone to someone else should be backhanded, and sarcastically told thanks but no thanks. They'll kill your game if you let them, because the only thing they care about is to feel special at any cost. They crave power and notoriety that they are ultimately inept at getting, which is why they try to get it in a MMO instead of a more appropriate or useful venue.

You don't play strategy RPGs for the jumping. You don't play shooters for the puzzles. You do not play MMORPGs to compete. Go play Madden if you want to compete. You'll probably get your ass beat.

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Whoa you went waaay off topic to try to say something and the argument you say has nothing to do with me saying that time can be used to challenge someone. If you are too impatient you fail the challenge. Simple. Long post only prove that you can't disprove time as a VARIABLE(bolded for emphasis, sorry) to challenge. That was all I was saying.

sh..
sorry mmo are not the place for that type of gear, Everyone gets everything eventually. More so if it is "required".

Like I said i'm all for fun and no seperation. we all get the same access, to the same content. Kinda the point of playing games.