Clarification on PLD = Main tank WAR = Off tank

It's lies.

There is your clarification.

WAR was greatly buffed for phase 4 / release and PLD was slightly nerfed. This put both jobs on par.

A WAR can tank the same thing as a PLD and vice versa.

If there was a huge difference it will be rectified in a future patch.

WHM isn't better than SCH. DRG isn't better than MNK. BLM isn't better than SMN

The job is only as good as the player.

Its more of an aggro difference now.
PLD has relatively weak aoe aggro, but very strong ST aggro.
WAR has much stronger aoe aggro than PLD, but worse ST aggro.\

Thats about it.

They are two different styles of classes. PLD = Mitigation WAR = HP/Damage

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

Its more of an aggro difference now.
PLD has relatively weak aoe aggro, but very strong ST aggro.
WAR has much stronger aoe aggro than PLD, but worse ST aggro.\

Thats about it.

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3 times in a row I tanked Cancer in Costa Del Sol with WAR in my FATE party no one could take hate from me. Skull Sunder has 3X multiplier on enmity and Butchers Block has 5X multiplier. Take defiance into consideration (2x on all actions) then that's 6 and 10 times multiplier on single targets.

How anyone would find it difficult to hold single target hate with that is beyond me!

I dont think u can compare a lvl 30-40 fate to HL content XD
But since my second job is going to be war I really hope he wont be a second class tank :>

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Originally Posted by Kal-El

3 times in a row I tanked Cancer in Costa Del Sol with WAR in my FATE party no one could take hate from me. Skull Sunder has 3X multiplier on enmity and Butchers Block has 5X multiplier. Take defiance into consideration (2x on all actions) then that's 6 and 10 times multiplier on single targets.

How anyone would find it difficult to hold single target hate with that is beyond me!

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I believe that Savage Blade has a 3x multiplier, and Rage of Halone has a 5x multiplier. The first 2 steps of the hate combo have equal potency for both classes, the 3rd step, Rage of Halone is 260, Butcher's Block is 280.
However, Defiance is a 25% damage penalty, while Shield Oath is a 20% penalty. So equal mods, equal weapon damage, roughly equal combo potency, but PLD has a smaller dps hit, so in the long run, PLD should be ahead of WAR in ST.
That said, WAR's aoe hate generation blows PLD out of the water.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

I believe that Savage Blade has a 3x multiplier, and Rage of Halone has a 5x multiplier. The first 2 steps of the hate combo have equal potency for both classes, the 3rd step, Rage of Halone is 260, Butcher's Block is 280.
However, Defiance is a 25% damage penalty, while Shield Oath is a 20% penalty. So equal mods, equal weapon damage, roughly equal combo potency, but PLD has a smaller dps hit, so in the long run, PLD should be ahead of WAR in ST.
That said, WAR's aoe hate generation blows PLD out of the water.

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You are forgetting War has 20% damage buff from maim and 10% from Eye of the storm. They are damn close in single target threat with maybe the War being a bit better in both in my experience. This is purely anecdotal but I have been able to rip it off a pld whenever I felt like it in 8 mans.

Among all the posts, this one hits the jackpot in my opinion

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Originally Posted by Griffeth

They are two different styles of classes. PLD = Mitigation WAR = HP/Damage

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And as far as I'm concerned, WAR has no problems holding aggro on a Single Target, whereas PLD has a slight problem holding AOE aggro (which is no problem at all depending on the player's skill rotation and the Team's choice of skill, ex sleep, AOE spells).

Pld has a little trouble with4+ mobs but I rarely ever see that so

I completely agree that it is slightly difficult to hold aggro on multiple targets, but only really against way-too-ambitious black mages (who really should sleep and single target, in my opinion).
Healing aggro is easy to combat by switching targets while you do your combo. If your single target dps understand how to read marks - aggro is never an issue as a paladin.

I think we'll see the full utilization of paladins and warriors in parties as more content is released and completed in full parties.

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Originally Posted by AlbelV

Among all the posts, this one hits the jackpot in my opinion



And as far as I'm concerned, WAR has no problems holding aggro on a Single Target, whereas PLD has a slight problem holding AOE aggro (which is no problem at all depending on the player's skill rotation and the Team's choice of skill, ex sleep, AOE spells).

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Yeah sometimes the warrior manage to steal the aggro on one mob from me, that's an issue, or not.

Flash is by far, once you take the damage reduction from defiance/shield oath into account, the best aoe threat ability, guess who got twice the mana of the other one ?

Spamming Brayflox for that freakning awesome looking robe for my mages (still have not won the lot and have done it over 20 times) I can say that WAR and PLD are both on par with each other. Both can suck royally or both can do such an amazing job that my life as a SCH is simply a cake walk. Fastest run yet was with ~55min left and that consisted of PLD,BRD,BRD,SCH. Every time I thought (dang PLD is amazing) the next run a WAR would hope along and be like "I can do this too, yo." I have had both jobs fail miserably but that was player skill.

PLD has greater access to skills that reduces damage taken making it easier for healers to heal through and at times, allowing a brief respite for healers to deal with healing the other party members.

(Rampart - 20% damage reduction, Bulwark - 60% increased block rate - Sentinel - 40% damage reduction - Shield Oath - 20% damage reduction 20% damage output reduction, Hallowed Ground - Invulnerability, Awareness - Prevents critical damage)

WAR on the other hand has high HP, better mob control and higher damage output but noticeably lower damage mitigation thus requiring healers to stay on their toes in order to heal through the damage received by the WAR.

To the WAR, it might not seem like a big deal as their HP is constantly replenished but it does make a healer's job more difficult especially at higher level content where they need to attend to other party members.

For the above reason, PLDs are more suited for tanking main hard-hitting bosses.

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Originally Posted by ReiszRie

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Foresight 20% less damage. Feather foot 20%+ evasion. Second wind cure. Thrill of battle 20% max HP and 20% HP recovered. Bloodbath absorbs 25% of all damage done as HP. Defiance 20%+ HP. Wrath 15% bonus to cures and 20% Crit damage. Storms eye potency 250 absorbs 50% damage as HP. Inner beast Potency 300 with 300% damage recovered as HP.

Stick on Berserk and Inner Release with those absorb skills as well.

I make a healers job easy with those skills.

Initial hate generation on WAR is massive. After two 6x to 10x hate combos, I then wreck any chance of anyone getting hate with Unchained which removes the damage nerf completely while keeping all the Hate buffs. How can PLD compare? When I see PLD lose hate it's always at the beginning. But that the part where hate generation really matters.

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Originally Posted by ReiszRie

Snip...

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Also agreeing with Kal-El from the healer standpoint. A Warrior that uses their self-healing abilities liberally rather than only in emergencies have made my job easier. When I see Thrill of Battle pop up, I apply a Stoneskin to take advantage of that 20% boost (it's like Convalescence for Stoneskin). A Warrior that does not use their self-healing abilities in response to heavy attacks is equivalent to a Paladin who does not use their mitigation abilities against the heavy attacks. Both scenarios will cost the healer.

They're on par with each other, but require different tactics whether single target or multi-target and support different play styles.

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Originally Posted by Griffeth

They are two different styles of classes. PLD = Mitigation WAR = HP/Damage

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The mitigation is a little weak for gla/pld is should not rely so much on 15/sec and 20 sec skill but rather they should all be 30 sec skills. We already weaker when it comes to aoe aggro so make us stronger in single target aggro. likewise make mrd stronger in aoe aggro.

This way we each have our place gl/ pld as boss tank n mrd as aoe tank, I am sure healers would loves us both then. lol

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

Its more of an aggro difference now.
PLD has relatively weak aoe aggro, but very strong ST aggro.
WAR has much stronger aoe aggro than PLD, but worse ST aggro.\

Thats about it.

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Gonna have to disagree, my war has problem pulling adds, overpower kinda sucks and the tp cost can screw you, Flash feels so much better. On the other hand, i can pull aggro off a pld any day, and never lose it.

edit:
Whenever I am told to pick up adds, I struggle to get them in position, the cone of overpower makes it difficult when healers are pulling them multiple directions, however I see paladins just flash a couple times and call it a day. I don't know what some of these wars are doing to be so hard to heal but I suspect they don't know either...our single target skills have the life leech, our aoe drains tp and has limited range. Though when there isn't adds I just get aggro and end up tank anyways.

From Reddit. math is also provided there:

Paladins do more sustained single target dps than warriors.
Warriors have better burst dps and far better aoe dps.
Paladins are better for tanking long term high damage fights such as multiple adds or an enraged auto attack based boss.
Warriors are better for tanking frequent spike damage based bosses which are what make up most of the games end bosses currently, due to big hits taking up less of their maximum HP and being able to self heal for 900-1000 as the hits land which leaves them at much higher max and total hp amounts after each spike. (see post for math and better examples).

My own observation: The logic behind this is that a Warriors main mitigation skill (Inner Beast) should always be up during the "danger" moments that occur a few times per minute. While Paladins do have those massive mitigation skills, they are not always up for those crucial heavy damage moments because of their long cooldown.

Well, cant i sub Flash as Warrior?

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Originally Posted by Vire

You are forgetting War has 20% damage buff from maim and 10% from Eye of the storm. They are damn close in single target threat with maybe the War being a bit better in both in my experience. This is purely anecdotal but I have been able to rip it off a pld whenever I felt like it in 8 mans.

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and we get 30% dmg for 30 sec by fight or flight, so again, they're even in all and for all xD

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Originally Posted by Senchai

Well, cant i sub Flash as Warrior?

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yes but without a means to effectively restore mp and a low pool its not a reliable pull in extended fights with more than one add phase

Flash is a great way to spend your time when in Pacem after a Berserk and for tanking adds while low on TP.

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Originally Posted by Devilair

and we get 30% dmg for 30 sec by fight or flight, so again, they're even in all and for all xD

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Didn't count that because I didn't count warriors 50% damage increase from berserk. Warrior can keep up maim and storms eye whenever they want.

PLD is without question better at interrupting bosses though. Warrior needs the help of another person to keep most fights locked out. Its something you can do with teamwork with a war but pld can do it all by themselves.

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Originally Posted by Kal-El

Foresight 20% less damage. Feather foot 20%+ evasion. Second wind cure. Thrill of battle 20% max HP and 20% HP recovered. Bloodbath absorbs 25% of all damage done as HP. Defiance 20%+ HP. Wrath 15% bonus to cures and 20% Crit damage. Storms eye potency 250 absorbs 50% damage as HP. Inner beast Potency 300 with 300% damage recovered as HP.

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Foresight: +20% defense, not 20% less damage
Featherfoot: 15% evasion, not 20%+
Defiance: +25% HP, +10% crit chance

Bloodbath and Storm's Path are pretty terrible at increasing tankiness. They're alright for self-sustaining when soloing and such, but they give back so little HP that it's basically irrelevant when tanking anything decent. A level 50 warrior does less than 100 DPS, so healing for 25% of it is nothing when getting hit for hundreds or even thousands of damage. 50% of an attack that does maybe 300 damage at best, and isn't spammable since it's in the end of you non-enmity rotation, is likewise negligible. These two abilities heal for so little that it basically makes no difference when tanking endgame content, or even dungeons really.

Warrior are champs when it comes to holding aggro on multiple ADDs (Freaking packing AoE abilities that put PLD to shame) which is why people prefer them as OFF tanks

also PLD comes with native abilities and traits that greatly reduce their dmg taken which (and I will throw this out there... a much linear and simple class to play) as in Warrior if you don't know how to chain your combo's or use your abilities correctly well then your the worst tank ever.

I've healed my share of fail tanks and let me tell you a fail pld still does a good job holding the boss while a fail warrior is well.. a fail warrior

just my 2cents

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Originally Posted by Curcio

Warriors are better for tanking frequent spike damage based bosses which are what make up most of the games end bosses currently, due to big hits taking up less of their maximum HP and being able to self heal for 900-1000 as the hits land which leaves them at much higher max and total hp amounts after each spike. (see post for math and better examples).

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This doesn't really make sense, though, since warriors also take at least 20% more damage. The large hp vs. spike damage concept only applies if the damage taken is similar. It's a concept that comes from WoW where tanks generally took roughly the same amount of damage outside of cooldowns, but one type of tank had higher HP instead of powerful cooldowns and was thus better at surviving spike damage. If you take comparatively more damage than the other tanks, the extra HP is meaningless and does in fact not make you more survivable against spike damage at all. The only place where you get anything at all out of HP at the expense of mitigation is when you're taking unmitigatable damage, which is uncommon.

To dispel some myths:

Paladin has nowhere near the enmity generation that Warrior does. Their combos for generating enmity are identical, sure, but Warrior does a lot more damage than Paladin and regardless of what you're fighting that damage means more threat generated.

However.

Warrior cannot tank strong bosses as easily as Paladin can.

The best example I currently have is Titan Hard.

During his Phase2, one of his moves is a conal 5000 damage. This move will cast instantly and come following one of his line attacks which most of the people will be dodging while they dodge bombs or plumes. Your healers have to get your HP capped and you usually have to use Inner Beast every time just to stay alive. Any mistake means you die. The margin for error on Warrior is zero.

Paladin has: Block, damage mitigation. Shield Oath,-20% damage taken.

Rampart,-20% damage taken. Sentinel,-40% damage taken. Hallowed Ground, invulnerability. Bullwark,+60% block rate. Stoneskin, 10% HP negation.

And they can equip Foresight, Warriors +20% defense increase.

Right now, the only thing Warrior provides is a shitload more DPS which doesn't benefit the group if one tiny mistake wipes the run.


This lets us operate under two principles, Warrior is meant to be equal to Paladin in which case it needs some significant changes or Warrior is meant to be a Tank that deals with sub-bosses, adds, and other mechanics within a raid and it is probably fine as it is in that scenario.

To be more viable, Defiance would need to be changed to include a damage taken reduction (and/or removal of the damage dealt penalty) and some changes to Bloodbath in terms of downtime and potency. Storms Eye having a damage->HP bonus would also help. The tools we used to have from Gladiator (Rampart, Sentinel) being able to be equipped.

Earlier today before maint. I was trying to run thru Halatali to get all the kills for Grand Company and I was playing my 20 MRD that dungeon of a max lvl cap 23. And my god man, I sucked balls.

I had been playing GLD/PLD and was used to tanking multiple mobs - 3, 4, 5 at a time without breaking a sweat and so I was coming from that kind of mentality; jumped on the MRD, and found to my dismay, 3 mobs at LV20 vs 23 cap I was getting my ass handed to me. I couldn't hold hate off of a BLM or ARC either. I could tank bosses just fine - great in fact. I was really dismayed and thinking I was doing something horribly wrong. So I went and grabbed 2 more levels, went back, and still I can't tank 3 mobs without flatlining. One, yes. 2, serious issues. 3 - or more = done for.

Wondering what I'm doing wrong.

So I start out I Tomahawk, pull 3 mobs, line em up and use Overpower, once for each mob and probably 5 seconds later I'm about 100 HP and the healer has to cure bomb me. I hit Berserk, Foresight, Bloodbath, Heavy Swing + Main and get back up to full - but unless I do that action and get cure bombed, I die instantly I mean I have all pink gear on for MRD/WAR at my lvl that is good.

And so then I go into combo rotation - Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder -> Heavy Swing -> Maim and stay on one target. And I can tank and keep hate on one mob perfectly fine. But the adds that either a ARC or a LNC start attacking without staying on my target force me to go and grab them so I can keep everything on me and I have either do Overpower to redirect everything or use my single target skills. I guess my only problem is keep all the hate on me ----- because I feel like I'm supposed to be tanking every single mob ---- but while doing that I still am thrashed hard lol

I didn't really have trouble at that level and my gear was scaled worse than the gear that drops in the dungeon.

But your weapon damage is important, if that's underleveled then you will have a harder time holding threat.

This is irrelevant to Halatali, but later one what I'll generally do is Flash, Flash, Start Wrath V (or maintain via Berserk, Vengeance, or Maim combo) then Overpower 1-2 more times. I'll switch to the second target that I mark, perform Eye of the Storm, then switch to the third target and do the same thing. If still more than 3 targets, Overpower is going to be best (though costly on TP, DDs should be killing mobs faster if you're running out).

At that level, you're going to ride Overpower and Flash, but you also shouldn't be getting blown up by anything in a dungeon until maybe Stone Vigil.

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Originally Posted by Churchill

Paladin has: Block, damage mitigation. Shield Oath,-20% damage taken.

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Except that WARs pack 25% additional hp and 15% increased healing received (or at least they *should* maintain 5 stacks of Defiance with religious tenacity). A 20% reduction in incoming damage is the exact equivalent of a 25% increase in max hp, from a spike damage survival standpoint, and the increased healing received, coupled with the WAR self heals makes up for the difference in required external healing.

The only advantage that a PAL really has over a WAR is the block chance and, when we're discussing spike damage, you need to operate off of the assumption that the RNG simply hates you because it will inevitably fail. At that point, the difference is only a question of mean mitigation over time, wherein the WAR comes back with the superior CD suite (thanks to shorter CDs and higher uptimes).

It really isn't, lol.

HP and -dmg are completely separate stats and perform completely separate roles. From a spike standpoint, sure, they are similar in their operation.

From a realistic standpoint, HP is purely and simply burst prevention. To run X dungeon/raid/primal, the tank will need Y HP. Any HP beyond this point is wasted.

-dmg taken is a stat that effects the tank over time, and by its nature the healers MP pools, the bards DPS, etc. In addition to this Paladin has the other list of tools to soften the blow of any large, undodgeable attack and they're all fire and forget.

The discussion isn't that Defiance HP buff and Shield Oaths -dmg buff don't function as the same thing when hit by a big ability, but that they don't function as the same thing in a sustained engagement (which they do not). On top of that, the Paladin is more sustainable when left to themselves in the case of emergencies whereas a Warrior is most definitely left in the wind.

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Originally Posted by Churchill

HP and -dmg are completely separate stats and perform completely separate roles.

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Except that we're not simply comparing +hp to -dmg. We're comparing +hp *and* +healing to -dmg. A WAR takes 25% more damage than a PAL takes while having a 25% larger pool of health (so that spike damage is equivalent) and receiving roughly 25% more from a given quantity of healing (based upon Defiance and self-healing). It's a complete break even. At worst, it means that a WAR requires a *little* more healing over time (15% of the +healing is effectively baseline so we're talking about WAR self-healing having to equate to 8% of total healing output to reach absolute parity) while having the same spike performance.

From a mathematical standpoint, there is *no* difference between increasing HP and healing received by 25% and decreasing damage taken by 20%. That's not opinion. That's mathematical fact such that the argument that WARs are somehow inferior at tanking hard hitting content makes no sense other than WARs requiring more player input to achieve optimal survivability (i.e. using and abusing CDs and combos to affect survivability rather than trusting passives and reserving CDs for emergencies).

As to the difference between block and the CD suite, I'd rather have the CD suite so that I can actually control access to my superior mitigation rather than trusting it to the RNG to work when I need/want it.

Wars +HP is soso if bosses start at some point hitting for % of hp damage rather than flat damage. Until then, I do like warriors. I've tanked now everything up to Vale 2 times or more as a paladin and I've loved it. And it is true, it is quite easy to tank as a paladin at the moment. Except when you get those overly zealous BLM or BRD who think they are gods gift to dps and think tanks can still hold AoE agro on everything as well as in other MMO:s ever. Then we have an issue.
I must say of Defiance, the MRD skill that gives +20% defence. I'd like if maybe, there would be in the mrd traits a trait, that gives the skill also + magic defence. Then I'd say it'd be an awesome skill for marauders/warriors. As it stands, magic damage is a bitch to handle in general.

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Originally Posted by Vire

Didn't count that because I didn't count warriors 50% damage increase from berserk. Warrior can keep up maim and storms eye whenever they want.

PLD is without question better at interrupting bosses though. Warrior needs the help of another person to keep most fights locked out. Its something you can do with teamwork with a war but pld can do it all by themselves.

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Well it depends, both our interrupts are on the gcd, which is VERY annoying, plus most bosses completely resist pacification and stun :(
Tbh i'd rather have shield bash out of the gdr on a 15sec cd, but able to interrupt bosses at least if not stun them.

PLD vs WAR as tank and which generate most enmity is interesting in itself.

But: As in a team play to make a fight go smoothly it's not just about the tank generating enmity it's as much about other classes holding back so the hate is on the tank. Many people forget this.

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Originally Posted by Devilair

Well it depends, both our interrupts are on the gcd, which is VERY annoying, plus most bosses completely resist pacification and stun :(
Tbh i'd rather have shield bash out of the gdr on a 15sec cd, but able to interrupt bosses at least if not stun them.

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I don't know. As a WAR, I rather have my stun on GCD than a 30 second cool down...

Well if you look at party composition there are certain setups that favor War or Pld more. For instance Mnk can increase war already healthy static bonus to healing recieved with mantra but at the same time pld would get the greater benefit from that when paired with a whm but sch because of the potential dmg reduction would be higher with a war as there is so much more health with thrill of battle. Also there are other things like drg dives effect stun but also are a major source of damage so war would benefit from that with their long stun cd . But a brd instead would be feasible for a pld whm combo and as well as a blm or smn dps. Plds cover is a skill War can't imitate in any fashion so a less squishy party may prove valube to the head smash that is war tanking. To be honest because the War can potentially out self heal the Pld from the word go I'm not to worried about another Darnus like requirement from a boss so specific in tactics that a Pld is needed in every sound strategy.