[dev1031] Truly "Hardcore-friendly" NMs. Make us HUNT them.

I've read people that want to wait for hours for an NM spawn because that would somehow bring the "thrill of the hunt" into the picture. That honestly made me giggle a little, but it gave me an idea.

Instead of making people wasting time to wait for NMs to pop, or to camp them in a completely overcamped and cramped spot, why not to make them actually spend time having *fun* by adding a real "thrill of the hunt"?

FFXIV's areas are BIG and complex, and that's perfectly conductive to the kind of "hunt" I'm thinking about.

Here's how it'd work.

1: the NM spawns in a completely random location (certain overpopulated areas like the city entrances and the areas near camps should be excluded), leaving a "lair" decoration item there, different for any NM. That serves as a marker for the beginning of the trail.

2: the NM moves in a completely random direction, following a pattern unique to that NM. For instance some NM could move in a zig-zagging pattern, another could move alternating straights with big circles and so forth. That would give experienced "hunters" a tool to partially predict it's path. Certain NMs could even have preferred kinds of environment and would often travel towards that kind of environment (not staying there long though), for instance some animals could travel frequently to random ponds to drink.
The NM can travel across the WHOLE extension of an area. Again with the exclusion of the densely populated areas in which it cannot spawn. If it touches the border of one of those areas, it will treat it as an obstacle (see point 3).

3: when an NM encounters an obstacle, he changes direction randomly, avoiding it, then resumes his movement "pattern".

4: An NM leaves a trail behind himself. Any NM leaves an unique kind of trail. Some can leave peculiarly shaped footprints, other can leave a peculiar odor (that will appear in the chatlog of people crossing it's trail, something like "you smell a pungent odor, probably belonging to a XXX"), others can leave visible clouds of energy and so forth, the possibilities are endless.
The "tracks" should be left at a reasonable distance betwen each other, and not always easy to spot, forcing the hunters to cross-compare the position of a track with the typical pattern of each NM (that obviously will need to be studied and discovered) and possibly will have to hunt in packs in order to cover more directions from each "track" to discover the next.

5: after a while after the passage of the NM, the trail becomes cold and each track disappears. This time should be long enough to allow the "hunters" to indentify the trail itself and follow it

6: As the NM moves through the area, it's speed will normally remain rather low (about half to 3/4 of that of players) in order to allow the "hunters" to track it down. It will, though, after a certain period of time, have a short speed burst to speed superior to that of players followed by a sudden change of direction (more or less the same as it met an obstacle) , to make just following the mob in sight range for extended periods of times impossible.

7: once attacked the mob obviously pauses it's "course". If killed, it will drop it's loot with a quite high drop rate (after all it takes quite a lot of effort to track it down). The drop rate might actually increase the longer it's been traveling. It will also leave a corpse for a while, so that other people following the trail will know that the mob has been killed by someone else, and that the trail is now useless.
Then it will respawn immediately at a completely random position in the whole area. If the hunters are wiped, the mob will not despawn, will immediately have a speed burst followed by a change of direction like the ones explained in point 6. That will force the hunters to follow the trail again.

Here's the reasoning behind the implementation explained so far:

- The mob takes time and effort to track down, but it's not a timesink. The players are encouraged to actively "hunt" for the monster in what's basically an enjoyable minigame in itself.
It basically makes the player spending time while having fun, keeping awareness high for the whole time instead of wasting his time in a boring way standing around or grinding minor mobs.

- The challenge is not only in killing the NM, but also in finding it.

- Luck still plays a role, as it's possible to just walk around and met the NM randomly, but it's rare and the periodic speed burts ensure that the window of opportunity to gather a group to kill the mob will be short. In most case the gathered group will come too late and will have an idea of the location of the mob, but will still have some hunting to do.

- The NM doesn't even need a respawn timer. the fact that in most cases it will need a certain amount of time to be killed, instead of being killed basically instantly like a camped mob does, ensures that respawns will be rather slow by themselves.

- Competition is possible, but it's much less antagonistic than between a bunch of people standing in a cramped respawn spot. Most of the time groups hunting the mob won't even see each other for long periods of time, and the claim isn't a simple matter of who has the fastest finger (or the fastest bot). The best at the hunting minigame, and the most organized will have more chances to grab the claim.

- Finding the NM efficently requires ability and a well organized group/linkshell, pleasing hardcore gamers, but it's still very possible for casual gamers to engage in the hunt and grab the claim, especially since the mob cannot effectively be overcamped (it can spawn everywhere and go everywhere), ensuring accessibility.

- Aggressive NMs that fit this mechanic will raise the level of thrill and "danger" in the whole area. It's very possible to be doing something completely unrelated as the NM comes and attacks.
Note:
NMs that fit this mechanic should have a variable aggressiveness value. They should be aggressive only in the open field(when the kind of mob is aggressive in itself), and go back to non-aggressive when traveling very cramped areas that makes walking around them completely impossible. This to avoid a single aggressive NM making traveling to certain locations completely impossible to low level players. While I'm sure some "hardcore" gamers would be against this, it's unreasonable to make certain areas to the ones that cannot fight the mob for a possibly long periods of time.

- The "thrill of the hunt" is now more real, as opposed to a completely artificial "waiting for the spawn", as players will frantically look for the next clue to get to the NM before someone else grabs it.

That's all, have ai it :D

I would like a system like this too, a real NM hunt, just as the name describes.

But although I like this idea, remember this is SE we're talking about. Since beta we have been dreaming of more natural and realistic approaches to NM hunts and SE just went ahead and implemented it A) like a guildleve or B) exactly like it was in FFXI.

I was about to say " one drawback of creating footprints and having the server keep track of the NM's movements is that it could place an unrealisable burden on the servers" but then I remembered that other games are coming onto the market with far more server-intensive features, so I'm sure SE are capable of implementing something like this.

But if they have the option to implement something that has been proven to work (albeit barely) or the option to implement something interesting (albeit at the cost of extra development time), which do you think an already-stressed company will choose?

i like it, reminds me of morrowwind blood moon. with the prints I vote for generated check spots. Much like mog tablets.

I think it would be a radically better advancement on what they gave us in FFXI when Ixion was introduced (I got roflstomped more than once ;_; ).

It is a very interesting idea, one I hope (and trust) SE have the tact and creative flare to incorporate!

@Gifthorse: I'm not in a terrible hurry. It could come "soon" or whenever they're not "stressed" anymore (or obviously, it could not come at all, but hope is good to have nowadays).
After all innovation pretty much always takes time to implement.

I'm quite sure it's not so burdening server-wise, as the game already has environmental collision detection (that ensures that mobs won't be stuck in the environment) and random pathing. The server load wouldn't be much higher than that of any normal mob (unless I'm missing some very big detail here, but I doubt it). I'm actually inclined to say that restricting a mob to it's territory may actually cause a higher burden on the server than letting it roam free.

but hardcores want to "work" and that takes a whole lot of sitting and waiting

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Originally Posted by Kimowar

but hardcores want to "work" and that takes a whole lot of sitting and waiting

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I hope they don't strain themselves.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

@Gifthorse: I'm not in a terrible hurry. It could come "soon" or whenever they're not "stressed" anymore (or obviously, it could not come at all, but hope is good to have nowadays).
After all innovation pretty much always takes time to implement.

I'm quite sure it's not so burdening server-wise, as the game already has environmental collision detection (that ensures that mobs won't be stuck in the environment) and random pathing. The server load wouldn't be much higher than that of any normal mob (unless I'm missing some very big detail here, but I doubt it). I'm actually inclined to say that restricting a mob to it's territory may actually cause a higher burden on the server than letting it roam free.

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I didn't mean that the mob itself would cause the server stress but that the server would have to keep track of not only where the NM is, but also where it has been. Footprints and other trackable signals would need to placed in the zone and they would congest those zones (depending of course on how far apart the footprints are) just like any other mob or item would. I mean, I'm sure in this day and age, a developer could compensate for this. But I've come to distrust the FFXIV network coders.

I like this idea. More fun, engaging and addicting indeed.

Really hope some of all these ideas we put in here, will be taken seriously in consideration for the future. :)

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

I didn't mean that the mob itself would cause the server stress but that the server would have to keep track of not only where the NM is, but also where it has been. Footprints and other trackable signals would need to placed in the zone and they would congest those zones (depending of course on how far apart the footprints are) just like any other mob or item would. I mean, I'm sure in this day and age, a developer could compensate for this. But I've come to distrust the FFXIV network coders.

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Eh, if we distrust their coders and their ability to create content in the future, we really have no reason to be here, or to even post proposals for evolution.

Even considering that they have to keep track of multiple footprints, that would just be a set of coordinates and a timer (for despawn of the track), per track. I doubt it's much of a problem, server-wise.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Eh, if we distrust their coders and their ability to create content in the future, we really have no reason to be here, or to even post proposals for evolution.

Even considering that they have to keep track of multiple footprints, that would just be a set of coordinates and a timer (for despawn of the track), per track. I doubt it's much of a problem, server-wise.

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Well my distrust stems from the whole UI-lag and loading-in issues of other players and NPCs that was so rampant during the first few months, and I always got the feeling that SE were trying to milk their servers for all they were worth, going so far as to minimise sent-data wherever possible (and that might include unique NM pathing and whatever extra data such a feature would entail).

And sorry to rain on your parade, by the way. If I was in charge I would say "hang the servers, give me dynamic NM hunts at any cost."

Whats the point of having servers anyway if you dont have features that attract players?

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Well my distrust stems from the whole UI-lag and loading-in issues of other players and NPCs that was so rampant during the first few months, and I always got the feeling that SE were trying to milk their servers for all they were worth, going so far as to minimise sent-data wherever possible (and that might include unique NM pathing and whatever extra data such a feature would entail).

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This is partly true, but now each area is made by multiple servers (separated by the "bottlenecks" in the maps), and I personally don't have any more UI lag, so I think that at the moment the problem is solved.

This might actually cause an issue as a mob would have to "migrate" between a server and the other as it passes the bottlenecks. But hey, it's their job to come up with a solution :D

I prefer to think that they can. Whatever is the ability level of their network engineers, they know better than me for sure, and have more experience.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

This is partly true, but now each area is made by multiple servers (separated by the "bottlenecks" in the maps), and I personally don't have any more UI lag, so I think that at the moment the problem is solved.

This might actually cause an issue as a mob would have to "migrate" between a server and the other as it passes the bottlenecks. But hey, it's their job to come up with a solution :D

I prefer to think that they can. Whatever is the ability level of their network engineers, they know better than me for sure, and have more experience.

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I'm sure they are capable, but they might weigh up the time-to-develop and decide they can't be bothered and just slap some more FFXI NMs in there. I hope they do go the extra mile though.

I like this idea!
It reminds of Shikigami Weapon (FFXI NM) ^

this overall sounds like an interesting idea. thumvs up

I like the idea, with one suggestion if it hasn't already been made. To attack the NM you have to have engaged his lair and tracked him down first, If not he doesn't even phase into the game world for you, though his older tracks would. Once you touch his lair he can be seen when you catch up to him but not before.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I like the idea, with one suggestion if it hasn't already been made. To attack the NM you have to have engaged his lair and tracked him down first, If not he doesn't even phase into the game world for you, though his older tracks would. Once you touch his lair he can be seen when you catch up to him but not before.

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I guess that would probably make it more fun, even if slightly less realistic.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

I guess that would probably make it more fun, even if slightly less realistic.

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It would prevent the mob from getting ganked by someone who isn't participating in the "hunting mechanic."

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

It would prevent the mob from getting ganked by someone who isn't participating in the "hunting mechanic."

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True, but we would lose the effect of non-hunter passerby players of being able to tip off hunting players on where the roaming NM went ... or to join in the hunt/posse/angry mob with pitchforks.

I added "posse" and "angry mob" because no one says what you hunt has to be an animal or monster. It could be an escaped prisoner, or a kidnapped victim. There are interesting possibilities.

Regardless, I like the core idea very very much. If SE can implement it, it would be a win-win as it would do two things.

1. Give players with the time and skill something to accomplish.
2. Make Eorzea feel more alive and dynamic for everyone playing.

This is a great idea. Having them spawn anywhere on a map works great for La Noscea or Thanalan but I feel with The Black Shroud there's just way too much area to cover. You could spend hours looking around and not finding anything in there. Maybe have it choose one half of the map or something? lol. I mean it'd be okay either way, I just feel Black Shroud is obnoxiously large for an idea like this.

Remove ants from the road! They keep killing my rank 17 PUG because I'm too lazy to walk around them!

Now make Vrtra fly around and kill everyone! Misdirection! Yay!

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Originally Posted by Sorel

True, but we would lose the effect of non-hunter passerby players of being able to tip off hunting players on where the roaming NM went ... or to join in the hunt/posse/angry mob with pitchforks.

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Yes, that's pretty much it. A component of luck should not be completely excluded. Worse comes to worst, they could give a bonus to the drop rate if the group that kills the mob also engaged it's lair.

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Originally Posted by Visch

Remove ants from the road! They keep killing my rank 17 PUG because I'm too lazy to walk around them!

Now make Vrtra fly around and kill everyone! Misdirection! Yay!

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The detail you're missing is that the ants effectively wandered into the entrance of bottlenecks, often making the areas beyond them inaccessible to newbies. On the other hand NMs following this mechanic (as specified in the OP) would lose their aggressive status when traveling through bottleneck areas to avoid blocking them.

But hey, not at all surprised that you'd be against NM hunting that actually involves fun, active and actually challenging searching, instead of standing in one place wasting time :D

I agree random area spawns would be a great touch.

SE need to have a system where certain monsters can only appear in specific type locations but have 20-30 different spawn locations.

For example Anux can spawn in caves, mines and underground area's up to 30 different spawn locations, 1 time he could spawn in Mistbeard the next in Nanawa the next in Tam-Tara and so on.

Cactuar Jack can only spawn in Sandy Desert area's outside only (seeing as hes a plant), this could restrict him to Thanalan only perhaps but that area is huge so he could spawn 20-30 places within that area.

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This is a great idea. Having them spawn anywhere on a map works great for La Noscea or Thanalan but I feel with The Black Shroud there's just way too much area to cover. You could spend hours looking around and not finding anything in there. Maybe have it choose one half of the map or something? lol. I mean it'd be okay either way, I just feel Black Shroud is obnoxiously large for an idea like this.

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Aren't they planning on destroying The Black Shroud and redesigning it as part of the story ?

Show me where I said I wanted to wait for hours.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I agree random area spawns would be a great touch.

SE need to have a system where certain monsters can only appear in specific type locations but have 20-30 different spawn locations.

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Sounds possible to me, as long as spawn points are numerous, varied and distanced enough to make camping them impossible.

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Originally Posted by quantumsaint

Show me where I said I wanted to wait for hours.

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I am glad everything is based around what you want, there should be content for both groups of people Hardcore and Casual, Personally I am more inclined to enjoy content for both groups because who knows how someone will feel on a given day.

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Originally Posted by Elkwood

I am glad everything is based around what you want, there should be content for both groups of people Hardcore and Casual, Personally I am more inclined to enjoy content for both groups because who knows how someone will feel on a given day.

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I realize it sounds arrogant out of context, but Abriael is referring to my topic about lottery spawns.

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Originally Posted by quantumsaint

I realize it sounds arrogant out of context, but Abriael is referring to my topic about lottery spawns.

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Sorry mate, but my posting doesn't exactly revolve around you (besides the undeniable fact that lottery spawns are undeniably a timesink and reduce accessibility of content).

You're clearly referencing and quoting my post.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-in-the-future

Lottery spawns are all well and good but they are heavily designed around place holders and there is nothing more infuriating than killing loads of place holders and some random coming up and claiming the NM you just spent 1-2 hours trying to get to spawn.

I think 20-30 spawn sites which are varied enough to encourage exploration is the best way to go, this way they could also stop any bottleneck area's or roadside spawns from ganking low ranking players.

Another solution would be to have the current NM's randomly spawn in one another's locations, so even if you are camping the area you don't know what your guna get, this would at least stop people camping specific NM's and items.

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Originally Posted by quantumsaint

You're clearly referencing and quoting my post.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-in-the-future

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Sorry to burst a rather self centered bubble, but I'm referencing to a load of timewasting-supporting and supposedly "hardcore" threads popped up recently :D

In any case, this thread isn't about lottery spawns, so you may want to go discuss about it in your own thread. It'd be less off topic at the very least.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I think 20-30 spawn sites which are varied enough to encourage exploration is the best way to go, this way they could also stop any bottleneck area's or roadside spawns from ganking low ranking players.

Another solution would be to have the current NM's randomly spawn in one another's locations, so even if you are camping the area you don't know what your guna get, this would at least stop people camping specific NM's and items.

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The problem with that is that it brings camping back into the picture, and with camping, it brings overcamping back. Overcamping turns everything into another timesink.

I wouldn't worry about bottleneck areas (the non-aggressive toggle solves that) and even less about roadside areas. If you're on a roadside open area and aren't up to fight, you simply leave the road and walk around the NM. I'm sure even the most newbie-ish players can do just that, especially with the new aggro icons.

Whatever, Abriael. Your the one with the self-centered bubble, your posts are laden with condescension and you shoot down nearly every idea anyone has with negativity. "The thrill of the hunt" is clearly taken from my post.

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Originally Posted by quantumsaint

Whatever, Abriael. Your the one with the self-centered bubble, your posts are laden with condescension and you shoot down nearly every idea anyone has with negativity. "The thrill of the hunt" is clearly taken from my post.

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I don't know if you noticed, but you're clearly off topic. If you feel vengeful about me criticizing your "idea" (because a discussion forum is all about that, you know?), maybe you could try actually contributing to this thread with actual in-topic discussion, instead of going off topic. As I did with yours.
Criticism = discussion != negativity.


Besides, the "thrill of the hunt" expression has been used multiple times, by multiple people, in the last few days. I didn't know you had the expression copyrighted :D

Ugh...whatever.

Great idea Abriael! This is exactly what I've been talking about when I encourage people to think outside the box and propose new game play mechanics that are interesting and fun!

FF12 hunt system and personal beastiary please

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Originally Posted by Evangela

and personal beastiary please

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This I would very much like.

Oh like the system from the present and the past, where you grabbed a page to hunt nms, that would be kinda cool, they'd probably make it a leve though :/ or a quest which you also are limited to 16 with. I like the page concept, but they don't have to add fields of valor which pre gimped fields of valor is basically like leves haha

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Originally Posted by zaviermhigo

Oh like the system from the present and the past, where you grabbed a page to hunt nms, that would be kinda cool, they'd probably make it a leve though

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They already have this actually. It's the faction leve NMs.

Correction to title "THEY HUNT YOU"