A letter to Square

I thought this was a pretty good letter to SE,

@Gametrailers

They even mention they like the fact that they are trying to fix FFXIV, I can't wait for the reviews for this game to come out later this year.

^^

I like GameTrailers.


I even liked their 4.0 FFXIV review. Bad score, but a good review.

It's good to hear from people that still want Square to thrive.

That was the very definition of pretentious and condescending.

I thought it was an okay sort of "review" of how Squeenix had been doing lately as a JRPG game company. I mean, as much as I do love Squeenix, admittedly the company has made some questionable decisions. See, I can swallow bad reviews and less than favorable opinions as long as they're done right. (Sophie Prell, take notes please.) In my opinion, what Squeenix is doing with ARR may be their way of stepping back and taking the right path in the fork in the road. Here's hoping things pick up for the company.

Yea, if you look at their old retrospectives of the Final Fantasy series it shows that the people at GT truly love Square.

Can't wait to see the next gen for SE.

I agree with this 100% even with the part that kingdom hearts could have been very popular. If they just went on making kingdom hearts we could have been waiting for KH5 For PS4 right now. With disney owning pixar/lucasfilm and disney and pixar always making new movies. They could really keep adding to the world of Kingdom hearts it's a every changing world with more and more final fantasy and disney cartoons being added. It make me sad that they worry more about side storys then making main kingdom heart games.

I hope SE really start making the games we want and stop remaking stuff. Like the review said there so many time we want to play FF4 lol. Keep making kingdom hearts and final fantasy because that two of things us fans want and it's your top two games that people just want lol.

I lost respect for GT when they did that side by side comparison of Wolverine for Xbox and PS3 which was just 2 pictures of the 360 version and they forgot to edit out the 360's buttons on the PS3 side.

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Originally Posted by Pwnagraphic

I lost respect for GT when they did that side by side comparison of Wolverine for Xbox and PS3 which was just 2 pictures of the 360 version and they forgot to edit out the 360's buttons on the PS3 side.

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LOL

http://ashscrapyard.files.wordpress....10/awkward.jpg

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Originally Posted by Abriael

That was the very definition of pretentious and condescending.

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Maybe a little, but I think it's just one of many examples of everyone's failure to understand what we want from SE. Even SE doesn't seem to know because the fan base is sooooo varied (pro-Sony era vs. pro-Nintendo, for example). Between Yoshi-P's live letters, current FFXI leader Matsui's attempts to follow that example, and any other signs of willingness to ask our opinion, I hope we'll see enough reform for the better.

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Originally Posted by Yrusama

Maybe a little, but I think it's just one of many examples of everyone's failure to understand what we want from SE. Even SE doesn't seem to know because the fan base is sooooo varied (pro-Sony era vs. pro-Nintendo, for example). Between Yoshi-P's live letters, current FFXI leader Matsui's attempts to follow that example, and any other signs of willingness to ask our opinion, I hope we'll see enough reform for the better.

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Well said, I completely agree I hope this next Final Fantasy that comes out is worth while and memorable.

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Originally Posted by Yrusama

Maybe a little, but I think it's just one of many examples of everyone's failure to understand what we want from SE.

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Which is the big problem in many, they all think they speak for "the fans", when they are just mistaking their own opinion with "the fans".

Arrogance in its purest form.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Which is the big problem in many, they all think they speak for "the fans", when they are just mistaking their own opinion with "the fans".

Arrogance in its purest form.

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A good example is XIII's flashiness. They somehow got the impression "WE NEED MORE FLASHY!", but I attribute a lot of VI and VII's popularity to their believably humble settings. A star is only bright against the dark night sky.

Edit: derp, didn't fully take in what you were saying. Damn my distracting pizza!

Yeah, even I'm guilty of trying to speak for everyone from time to time. But when it comes to FF, I like to be as objective as possible, because everyone has their favorite for different reasons.

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Originally Posted by Yrusama

A good example is XIII's flashiness. They somehow got the impression "WE NEED MORE FLASHY!", but I attribute a lot of VI and VII's popularity to their believably humble settings. A star is only bright against the dark night sky.

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They also somehow got the impression WE NEED MOAR LIGHTNING SO LETS MAKE ANOTHER ONE LOL

Aside from that, this is pretty much spot on with how I feel towards the franchise. I still own all the titles, but I can't say I have been happy with the focus on so much flashy graphics that the story and innovation lags behind. Ah well, here's to hoping they make a great game in the future. o_o

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Which is the big problem in many, they all think they speak for "the fans", when they are just mistaking their own opinion with "the fans".

Arrogance in its purest form.

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Compared to some other videos I've seen from gaming sites about Square Enix I found the GameTrailers one to be a bit sincere. I'm no SE fanboy so I'm not going to whiteknight and be like "oh that video is full of shit." Since the video did bring up some good points. The overall message I got out of that video is that the people at GameTrailers hopes SE rediscovers the creative ambition again before its too late and they don't want to see them go.

It seems more arrogant to nit-pick at GameTrailers in thinking they are speaking for "everyone" and ignoring the main highlights of the video.

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Originally Posted by Xeonerable

It seems more arrogant to nit-pick at GameTrailers in thinking they are speaking for "everyone" and ignoring the main highlights of the video.

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Not when the "main highlights" are obvious things that you can find just by reading any forum (and not true for "the fans" anyway, as there's no way to poll them reliably).

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Not when the "main highlights" are obvious things that you can find just by reading any forum (and not true for "the fans" anyway, as there's no way to poll them reliably).

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Well fans of a series tend to be fans of it for mostly the same reasons right?
So if these are obvious things you can find on any forum they are basically repeating something that most people feel anyway then?

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Originally Posted by Xeonerable

Well fans of a series tend to be fans of it for mostly the same reasons right?
So if these are obvious things you can find on any forum they are basically repeating something that most people feel anyway then?

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Not really. Forums aren't a valid representation of what the real general demographic wants. Poll a different demographic (for instance magazine reasders) and you'll get entirely different results.

They're a representation of a very specific demographic (people that go on the internet and feel like chatting about games on forums, and on the western internet at that, since in Japanese forums you'll find entirely different viewpoints), and it has a specifically negative slant, as many are more likely to express negativity in written form than positivity (IE people that have something to complain about are much more likely to write about it that people that are happy about a product). Which is why the internet is becoming a cesspit of negativity and hate and game journalism is following suit (even when hidden behind the "concern" facade of "letters" like this).

You have it in your signature, so I'm pretty sure you can see it as well.

So basing yourself on forums, or even just "the internet" (provided that there is a way to find an actual consensus on "the internet", and there really isn't) to find a representation of what "The fans" want is flawed at best, ignorant at worst.

People, journalists included, should only talk for themselves. Not for "the fans" or "the majority". That's trying to find a validation for their own opinions that actually does not exist.

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Originally Posted by Vilhem

They also somehow got the impression WE NEED MOAR LIGHTNING SO LETS MAKE ANOTHER ONE LOL

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Always amazed to see that some still don't understand why they make "moar lightning".

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Always amazed to see that some still don't understand why they make "moar lightning".

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To be honest, I really don't understand either, lol. What's with the "Lightning flood" anyway?

I was interested until they kept showing clips of ARR as "The MMO that failed."

If you can't even match clips to the game you're criticizing, then you have no business doing it.

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

To be honest, I really don't understand either, lol. What's with the "Lightning flood" anyway?

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For the same reason why every other developer in the world continues churning out sequels of their games. A lot of the work behind them (from character design to actual assets) is already done, so the cost is very low compared to a full fledged production, and while a sequel of the lightning saga may sell less than a full fledged new final fantasy, it's a low cost/low risk/quick turnaround operation that brings easy cash in the coffers.

That cash can be used to finance more ambitious and high-risk project, like luminous/agni's philosophy for instance, or new full fledged games, of Final Fantasy XIV:ARR (that is most definitely a high cost/risk project).

Churning out a lot of low cost/risk projects to make the money for the high cost/risk ones is pretty much the only way to survive in the game industry now.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

For the same reason why every other developer in the world continues churning out sequels of their games. A lot of the work behind them (from character design to actual assets) is already done, so the cost is very low compared to a full fledged production, and while a sequel of the lightning saga may sell less than a full fledged new final fantasy, it's a low cost/low risk/quick turnaround operation that brings easy cash in the coffers.

That cash can be used to finance more ambitious and high-risk project, like luminous/agni's philosophy for instance, or new full fledged games, of Final Fantasy XIV:ARR (that is most definitely a high cost/risk project).

Churning out a lot of low cost/risk projects to make the money for the high cost/risk ones is pretty much the only way to survive in the game industry now.

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Oh, I see. So that explains the cell-phone game they just came out with a few months ago. And the multi-handheld remakes of the old ones.

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

Oh, I see. So that explains the cell-phone game they just came out with a few months ago. And the multi-handheld remakes of the old ones.

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Yep. Cheap high-margin projects are the lifeblood of the big ones. People on the internet crap on them, but they don't know that they're what helps bringing them the games they actually love.

An interesting and in-depth look at the gaming industry trends right now compared to the past. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZxXEidtxHk

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Originally Posted by Valkyriesin

An interesting and in-depth look at the gaming industry trends right now compared to the past. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZxXEidtxHk

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Wow. What a complete waste of 30 minutes of my life.

30 minutes of comparing apples to oranges to prove a false point, abuse of hyperbole to make things look a lot worse than they are, alarmism, conspiracy theories, radical bias, good games defined "crappy titles" for mysterious reasons, mostly misguided EA-hate, valve-can-do-no-wrong crap, completely misplaced idealization of the "good old times" (when everything was perfect out of the box right? LOL) and absolutely ludicrous predictions sprinkled with factually wrong information and topped by a bit of financial bullshitting.

And just LOL at the argument about used games. They could have titled the video "I have no clue but I can talk for 30 minutes in a row, yay".

If anyone wants to actually understand the game industry (and not a bunch of angry fanboy rants piecemailed together in something with only the appearance of semi-coherent discourse), do yourself a favor and don't click on that link.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Wow. What a complete waste of 30 minutes of my life.

30 minutes of comparing apples to oranges to prove a false point, abuse of hyperbole to make things look a lot worse than they are, alarmism, conspiracy theories, radical bias, good games defined "crappy titles" for mysterious reasons, mostly misguided EA-hate, valve-can-do-no-wrong crap, completely misplaced idealization of the "good old times" (when everything was perfect out of the box right? LOL) and absolutely ludicrous predictions sprinkled with factually wrong information and topped by a bit of financial bullshitting.

And just LOL at the argument about used games. They could have titled the video "I have no clue but I can talk for 30 minutes in a row, yay".

If anyone wants to actually understand the game industry (and not a bunch of angry fanboy rants piecemailed together in something with only the appearance of semi-coherent discourse), do yourself a favor and don't click on that link.

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The only thing riddled with misguided opinions is your perception of everything around you. I've never witnessed a more combative person on any forums such as you.

Though, I can agree that some points in the video the author seemed a little misunderstood with the financials, the point he was trying to make was a valid one. The industry is generating a huge disconnect with it's audience. In my view, this is a shared tragedy and something that the author touched up on at the end of the video. The audience has the responsibility to not buy into these crappy models and do the opposite in putting their mouth where their money is. If you're unhappy with the industry, say so by not spending on it.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

The only thing riddled with misguided opinions is your perception of everything around you. I've never witnessed a more combative person on any forums such as you.

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Said form you, it's pretty hilarious considering that you're the one that said that he had it in the highest authority that the beta wouldn't have started when it started. I may be "combative" (you know, forums are made for discussion), but at least I don't lie to try and stir the pot.

Yeah. I also have a very good memory.

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Though, I can agree that some points in the video the author seemed a little misunderstood with the financials, the point he was trying to make was a valid one. The industry is generating a huge disconnect with it's audience. In my view, this is a shared tragedy and something that the author touched up on at the end of the video. The audience has the responsibility to not buy into these crappy models and do the opposite in putting their mouth where their money is. If you're unhappy with the industry, say so by not spending on it.

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Another one that thinks he can talk for "the audience". :rolleyes:

You know who can talk for "The audience?"

No one.

(blows whistle)

Okay, time out! Break it up!

You stand there...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3136/...21337c7b31.jpg

And you stand there...

http://www.shimarazipour.com/timeout.jpg

No talking! 15 minutes!

That kid on top dun seem to curr

<3 Skye

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Said form you, it's pretty hilarious considering that you're the one that said that he had it in the highest authority that the beta wouldn't have started when it started. I may be "combative" (you know, forums are made for discussion), but at least I don't lie to try and stir the pot.

Yeah. I also have a very good memory.

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That kind of proves your delusion being that what I told all of you was correct information. Are you talking about the debate on the start of beta and the release date? I gave the correct window on both accounts. Hey, guess what? Information leaks. People who work for companies run their mouth. The video you just bashed blindly made a point involving that in the leak of ME3's ending.

The delivery of your opinions are very combative. It's not exactly a personal attack. If anything it should clue you in to defend your thoughts in a different manner than what you have been doing for a long time now. Masking aggressive passion under the guise of a opinion doesn't exactly add anything to a discussion other than stress and some, I might go far as to say most, probably feel discouraged and give up in the discussion. Which is probably how you feel you win all debates. Once, really, you just wear people down with pseudo-philosophical responses such as the last one regarding the audience.

Some people know more than you do. If the difference in opinion frustrates you and the discussion goes on for way too long because that person is not smart enough to ignore you, myself included, perhaps it's time to do a little soul searching. I certainly will be. Also, can I point out the hypocrisy in almost all of your posts in this thread? Everything you've deflected within the scope of being a view other than yours ---really what is a view that is in support of yours?--- has been met with the same response. You seem to share the exact same descriptions as a person you're debating with only worse. You've always been the strongest user of hyperbole that I've seen in a long while. Christ man, get a hold of yourself.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

That kind of proves your delusion being that what I told all of you was correct information. Are you talking about the debate on the start of beta and the release date? I gave the correct window on both accounts. Hey, guess what? Information leaks. People who work for companies run their mouth.

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Apparently they don't run their mouth with you.

Allow me to quote:

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

That's what they say. It's not how it's going to be. You can quote me and refer to it when it's delayed. Maybe at the moment of that quote they were planning on that time, but development is never on time. You should know this by now.

Also, when have I ever done wrong by others by giving bad information? Never. In fact, when ever this happens its based off of information that hasn't reached this forum yet. I don't give out assumptions. So, I'm telling you, expect 3-4 months from alpha shut down. I'm trying to be helpful. Not hurt your hopeful feelings.

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The alpha shut down towards the end of december. The beta started two months later, just a week late compared to the roadmap. So much for your "inside info" uh?

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The video you just bashed blindly made a point involving that in the leak of ME3's ending.

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The video I described makes very few valid points amidst a sea of ignorance that completely drowns them.

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The delivery of your opinions are very combative. It's not exactly a personal attack. If anything it should clue you in to defend your thoughts in a different manner than what you have been doing for a long time now. Masking aggressive passion under the guise of a opinion doesn't exactly add anything to a discussion other than stress and some, I might go far as to say most, probably feel discouraged and give up in the discussion. Which is probably how you feel you win all debates. Once, really, you just wear people down with pseudo-philosophical responses such as the last one regarding the audience.

Some people know more than you do. If the difference in opinion frustrates you and the discussion goes on for way too long because that people is not smart enough to ignore you, myself included, perhaps it's time to do a little soul searching. I certainly will be. Also, can I point out the hypocrisy in almost all of your posts in this thread? Everything you've deflected within the scope of being a view other than yours ---really what is a view that is in support of yours?--- has been met with the same response. You seem to share the exact same descriptions as a person you're debating with only worse. You've always been the strongest user of hyperbole that I've seen in a long while. Christ man, get a hold of yourself.

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You're basically describing yourself (funny that you call someone "combative", and you came into the thread just to attack that someone on the personal level, without adding absolutely anything to the discussion). You just need to add in the lies. Glad I helped with your soul searching, I guess :D

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Originally Posted by Valkyriesin

An interesting and in-depth look at the gaming industry trends right now compared to the past. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZxXEidtxHk

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I actually htink this was a well-done editorial. It was excellently spoken, had sources that check out, and makes sense. And a lot of times I found myself nodding to this guy. Not that I think everyone who's not Valve is failing in the gaming industry, mind. But he touched on some good points.

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

I actually htink this was a well-done editorial. It was excellently spoken, had sources that check out, and makes sense. And a lot of times I found myself nodding to this guy. Not that I think everyone who's not Valve is failing in the gaming industry, mind. But he touched on some good points.

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There are no real sources supporting his conclusions besides other opinion pieces and unreferenced graphs that aren't read that way.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You're basically describing yourself (funny that you call someone "combative", and you came into the thread just to attack that someone on the personal level, without adding absolutely anything to the discussion). You just need to add in the lies. Glad I helped with your soul searching, I guess :D

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So basically, "I know you are, but what am I?" Brilliant. Also, as for the projected window, that was from the time the discussion was taking place. Late November when the info was leaked. You can bother responding to this to show others that you will continue to give the last word. However, you will be happily blocked by me. :)

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

So basically, "I know you are, but what am I?" Brilliant. Also, as for the projected window, that was from the time the discussion was taking place. Late November when the info was leaked. You can bother responding to this to show others that you will continue to give the last word. However, you will be happily blocked by me. :)

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Someone's angry because he's been proven a liar. The discussion was taking place in mid december (December the 12th to be precise) Isn't it lucky that posts are all dated? And you clearly specify "3-4 months from alpha shut down"

May as well read your own posts before you scramble for excuses.

But by all means, block away mate. My job here's done.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

There are no real sources supporting his conclusions besides other opinion pieces and unreferenced graphs that aren't read that way.

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He does post his references on his video. And a lot of things he said did make a lot of sense to me.

In fact, much of it was what I was thinking myself.

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

He does post his references on his video. And a lot of things he said did make a lot of sense to me.

In fact, much of it was what I was thinking myself.

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References that don't support his conclusions. A lot of things can "make sense" if arranged in an artful way. Warping reality to prove false (but nicely controversial) points is the bread and water of tabloid journalists.

The whole comparison between the quality at the time of the breakdown of Atari and now is so farfetched that it isn't even funny. We're talking about an overabundance of games that weren't even in a workable state compared with a much lower percentage of games nowadays that can be defined mediocre at worst. Truly shitty games that simply don't work are EXTREMELY rare in nowadays' market while they were extremely common back then.

His list of "debacles" is extremely hyperbolic (he even puts Battlefield 3 into the bunch, where did he take that from? Really don't know, maybe he meant Medal of Honor? If that's how much he knows...) and basically the whole discourse is the videogame equivalent of doomsday preaching on the maya calendar.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Not really. Forums aren't a valid representation of what the real general demographic wants. Poll a different demographic (for instance magazine readers) and you'll get entirely different results.

So basing yourself on forums, or even just "the internet" (provided that there is a way to find an actual consensus on "the internet", and there really isn't) to find a representation of what "The fans" want is flawed at best, ignorant at worst.

People, journalists included, should only talk for themselves. Not for "the fans" or "the majority". That's trying to find a validation for their own opinions that actually does not exist.

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Considering the demographic in this matter is a video gaming one, which relies on technology to function, it might be a safe assumption that most of them have internet access these days. So using a forum or the internet to gather opinion might not be entirely off-base.

However I think you are misunderstanding the GameTrailers video as speaking on behalf of the entire fan-base when it isn't. The demographic in question here are the people who are becoming disheartened with Square Enix, and I think the company's latest blunders is reflective of that. (Poor decisions, and even Wada is resigning.) So the "majority" in this demographic probably do share this opinion and as you said the points in GameTrailers' video are "obvious things that can be found on any forum." If we know one thing, it is that people will flock to forums to express their disappointment and those are usually the most vocal. It must be a growing demographic as it appears to be more common.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

They're a representation of a very specific demographic (people that go on the internet and feel like chatting about games on forums, and on the western internet at that, since in Japanese forums you'll find entirely different viewpoints), and it has a specifically negative slant, as many are more likely to express negativity in written form than positivity (IE people that have something to complain about are much more likely to write about it that people that are happy about a product). Which is why the internet is becoming a cesspit of negativity and hate and game journalism is following suit (even when hidden behind the "concern" facade of "letters" like this).

You have it in your signature, so I'm pretty sure you can see it as well.

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Call me crazy but I find it all ironic to what your first post was.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

That was the very definition of pretentious and condescending.

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Patronizing with no details as to why. Seeing your other posts in this thread and the tone of your responses... are you being part of the problem that you state?

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Originally Posted by Xeonerable

Considering the demographic in this matter is a video gaming one, which relies on technology to function, it might be a safe assumption that most of them have internet access these days. So using a forum or the internet to gather opinion might not be entirely off-base.

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One. Not all video gamers use the internet.
Two. Not all video gamers that use the internet use forums.
Three. Not all video gamers that use the internet and use forums do so in western forums.
Four. Not all video games that use the internet and forums do so to express sweeping opinions on the development plans of a specific company.

If you look at the numbers of even the biggest gaming forums out there, apply the conditions above and then compare them with the sales of even a mediocre AAA games, you can easily see that people that go to forums for this relevant purpose and even more so people that post regularly are a ridiculously small percentage of the total.

It's not even statistically relevant, as you correctly say yourself, as people that go and are very vocal on forums are more often than not the most negative minded, polluting the validity of the statistical pool.

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However I think you are misunderstanding the GameTrailers video as speaking on behalf of the entire fan-base when it isn't.

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Not really, he clearly talks about what "the fans" want, which he has no way to ascertain or gauge. The fans want many things, and they're no hive mind.

Mind you, even "the fans that are disheartened with SE" are a hive mind or have any kind of unity of intents or demands.

Some game journalists like him just love to paint themselves as the spokesperson of the hive mind, forgetting that such thing doesn't exist.

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Patronizing with no details as to why. Seeing your other posts in this thread and the tone of your responses... are you being part of the problem that you state?

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I would say I provided plenty details behind my reasoning, and this forum itself is quite a piece of evidence. I seriously doubt many would say it can be considered representative of the total playerbase of the game, pretty much like any forum on the internet.

The difference between me and "The problem" is that I simply don't try to speak for everyone. I have quite a bit of experience, but my opinions are mine, and I don't need to hide behind crutches like "the majority" or "the fanbase" to give them solidity. They speak on their own without the need of made up pseudo-statistics to compound them.

Seriously, whether the guy says he's "speaking for others" or not, I htink his info is well researched and he gave his opinion based on quite a few facts. Many of his points might prove a bit hard to disprove. I mean, there's no one way to give an editorial. The fact of the matter is, he had a lot of good points, and a lot of people agreed with what he had to say. I know I did.

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

Seriously, whether the guy says he's "speaking for others" or not, I htink his info is well researched and he gave his opinion based on quite a few facts. Many of his points might prove a bit hard to disprove. I mean, there's no one way to give an editorial. The fact of the matter is, he had a lot of good points, and a lot of people agreed with what he had to say. I know I did.

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Agreement is no proof of validity. Journalism isn't an election (as much as some definitely interpret it as such, and their articles are more pseudo-political and demagogic for the sake of personal popularity than anything else) A lot of people agreed with the maya doomsday theories, and we're still here.

There's no one way to create editorial content of course. There's the solid way based on facts and balance, and there's the hyperbolic way based on alarmism, fanboyism, negativity bias, fearmongering and false/warped information.

One of the best examples of the second kind is what you can define "pandering to the rage", to which pretty much both videos linked in this thread belong (the first a bit less, the second a lot more). It's a very easy and cheap tactic that consists in encouraging and agreeing with the most enraged/irrational areas of the reader/viewer base in order to catalyze the negativity and gain quick consensus while fanning the flames of ire and controversy, no matter if the positions expressed have any degree of validity or not.

The first is legit journalism, the second is tabloid scribbling. If you want to base your perception of the industry on the second you're free and entitled to do so (it's more controversial, and many absolutely love controversy), but that view will be as warped as its source.

To each their own.