7.5 MSQ [SPOILERS]

I am unsure how I feel on the MSQ. On one hand I enjoyed it and thought it was high quality, on the other it's another ascian trying to rejoin shards. I just feel like it's a bit re-hashed. Maybe expectations will be subverted, but it seems like while the details around rejoining have changed, it is largely the same villains with the same ambitions. What do you guys think about it?

Without further explanation, none of the current antagonism makes sense. Here is why:

1. No other person other than Halmarut anticipated this. So either everyone is an idiot (unbelievable), she did not tell anyone (unbelievable), or she is lying. Didn't Halmarut have an ethical obligation to come forward before now?
2. Calyx tells us he was picked to cause rejoining. But in DT he wasn't doing that. If anything, he was looking for a way to preserve consciousness under the assumption Solstice was inevitable.
3. What have the Winterer's been doing this whole time?
4. Can't we just solve this by going to Elpis?
5. Why were no Ascians using this key?
6. Calyx is telling us all their plans, acting like a double agent. But he is also a murderer so..?? What?
7. Is the world ending or not? Zero learns of this and is like "um anyway hey do u want to farm light, sure hope we fix this darkness thing". If the characters do not perceive this threat, is it even a real threat or a herring??

The story is a mess.

I also want to add a more speculative thought:

Calyx sorta lays out the theme of this arc here. "Is there any conclusion you desire so strongly you would sacrifice anything to get it?". That's good but here is the problem. We should be learning this theme over time, not having it laid out in front of us. I would say this is only relevant to Evercold, except that Calyx openly told us to expect a Winterer shard gauntlet themed around ambition. This reeks of Dawntrail writing. They said we would get a tropey anime tournament already. Well, did you enjoy that? Was that done well? Now it feels like they are turning the MSQ into Yu Yu Hakusho/DBZ territory where we are being pit against 5 or so baddies and they all have their own vice. Oo how exciting and original. Idk. I am bored.

Also feel like it's feels a bit too similar to what we just had, but this is the start of the new arc, so we will see where it goes I guess.

I just hope to god they don't bring back Zenos somehow. please let that man rest

I am hoping they are just trying to mislead us...

Even then it feels like regardless of whether they do or don't it will just be too same-y to what we've only just recently had..

My concern with that is that it feels like they are doing it because they struggle to do a compelling story outside of the usual rejoinings, calamities, ascians and all that stuff... I hope I am wrong... But it jus feels that way.

I feel like Halmarut has the possibility to be interesting. I doubt she's laid all of her cards on the table. Maybe what she says about the shards is true, but there's some other pieces of information about the situation that she's failed to share with us. Maybe she never fully trusted her comrades and kept a lot of what she knew to herself. Also based on how she acted last patch and the way she talked to us this patch, I think a lot of her performance there was just that: a performance. Calyx also has his own reasons for telling us what he knows, and I don't think he's in any way looking to actually help us. If anything, I think he wants us to fail. Each has the potential to be an engaging villain but we'll have to see where SE takes them. I'm more hopeful and optimistic than anything right now. The new arc seems like it'll have high stakes, and I have a lot of questions. Do we even know where the key came from before it fell into the Milala's hands? It seems to be directly connected to Azem and our mark is required to make it work. Who was the Ancient speaking with us when we unlocked the key? It would have to be someone who knew we'd be able to unlock the key, so... Hades? Someone close to him? I'll wait to see how SE decides to answer these, and more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gullis

I just hope to god they don't bring back Zenos somehow. please let that man rest

---

I am extremely concerned about some fan reception I have seen calling for a return. As in, they want to see Zenos become a Winterer. That's terrifying and it's convincing me the standard for storytelling now is so low between the FFXIV audience and the writers, its going to be nearly impossible to get a decent story. If Zenos shows up in this xpac as a Winterer, it will not matter how compelling or effective the writing is, it signals a total loss of competence in the writing team. I am trying to stay positive, and simply interpret what we've seen as a thematic invocation of Zenos. Maybe Zenos was the (unaware) Winterer of our star. Maybe this new arc is about us being put in that same position, and how we apply that ambition.

Of course if you're in this camp, if you're satisfied by the constant recurrence of characters at any cost, that's your right and your preference, but I am drawing a line in the sand based on the storytelling we've seen from this IP so far. As we have crossed over from EW it does seem increasingly clear this is a husk of an IP meant for fandoms and tacos, and I am not sure if I will buy xpacs and subs for that type of content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

5. Why were no Ascians using this key?

---

Why would they need to? They can already travel between the shards on their own.

I bet somewhere in their office they had this box with the glass door that said "Break in case of emergency". And when 7.0 crashed hard, they did so and found a sheet of paper saying: "Bring back Ascians. Rejoin more Reflections. And may the Shwartz be with you."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Why would they need to? They can already travel between the shards on their own.

---

Because in DT we see it does more than that. Zoraal Ja uses it to bring Alexandria to the Source. The Evercold trailer directly implies it plays a role in rejoinings and, combined with DT, I would argue its a huge time saver.

I liked the story, and I am hoping part 2 with 7.56 can keep this momentum going as the penultimate push to 8.0. My main issue right now is that there is not a single reason to take the Winterers remotely seriously other then "There is an Ascian here!"

Some might go "But Calyx!..." but I'm gonna stop that right before it even starts: we already wiped the floor with him. His entire life's work is, for the most part, gone, and now the story will proceed to do it's best to make you go "Please listen to his words and take him seriously" for the next 10 or so years while this new saga unfolds as he runs around as a fucking marketable plushie that, based on what I have seen from people who streamed 7.5, are just constantly laughing at him and saying how fucking stupid he looks now running around like that.

Some might also go "Okay, but Halmarut...": currently, Halmarut is a whole pile of nothing and has no merit to be taken even remotely seriously as a threat. Yes, she was just introduced, and yes, we will learn more about her as this saga goes on since I don't see her getting axed for the next several expansions given her importance to the whole thing, and yes, she is an Ascian so she will be doing the whole Ascian thing and scheming. But we as the WOL have slain pretty much all the Ascians that stood in our way, and triumphed over everything they have thrown at us as well, including the Final Days which eradicated nearly all of them in the first place, so the devs/storywriters just going "Look it's Halmarut the Ascian! This is a big problem right?!" is just not going to cut it now, especially given we could probably just sneeze and she'd fucking evaporate back to the aetherial sea given how strong we are, along with what we have/can accomplish when put into apparently "impossible" situations with no answer to be had.

Evercold NEEDS to give a genuine reason to even take the Winterers, or even just Halmarut and her stupid emo plush doll boy, remotely seriously, or provide some kind of pushback to the whole "I'm the hero of this game, so what I do WILL be the correct option and WILL cause the perfect good ending" rhetoric because right now I am unironically expecting the story to go:

- We go to the 4th
- We stop the Winterer's project on the 4th
- We do our own thing and implement our own solution
- We "save/fix" the 4th and get a "perfect ending" with uniting the shard our way
- Winterers go "Darn. You foiled us. But there is always [insert next shard here]."
- We repeat this for another 10 years

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Without further explanation, none of the current antagonism makes sense. Here is why:

1. No other person other than Halmarut anticipated this. So either everyone is an idiot (unbelievable), she did not tell anyone (unbelievable), or she is lying. Didn't Halmarut have an ethical obligation to come forward before now?
2. Calyx tells us he was picked to cause rejoining. But in DT he wasn't doing that. If anything, he was looking for a way to preserve consciousness under the assumption Solstice was inevitable.
3. What have the Winterer's been doing this whole time?
4. Can't we just solve this by going to Elpis?
5. Why were no Ascians using this key?
6. Calyx is telling us all their plans, acting like a double agent. But he is also a murderer so..?? What?
7. Is the world ending or not? Zero learns of this and is like "um anyway hey do u want to farm light, sure hope we fix this darkness thing". If the characters do not perceive this threat, is it even a real threat or a herring??

---

My response to the doubts raised is as follows:

1. Halmarut’s foresight and Azem connection
Halmarut likely anticipated the current situation due to her possible association with Azem.
If she is connected to Azem’s legacy, it would also explain her involvement in providing the Azem Key to the Lalafells who escaped to the Ninth.
Beyond simple benevolence, this can also be interpreted as a controlled test evaluating whether the Key can enable stable large scale interdimensional travel.

2. Calyx and the “Endless” as a proposed solution
Calyx may not be acting independently, but instead representing one faction within a broader group attempting to solve the “Solstice” problem.
From this perspective, his “Endless” concept is simply one proposed solution among many competing ideologies.

3. The Winterer as distributed experimentation
Each Winterer likely represents a different experimental approach to preserving humanity in the face of Solstice.
Rather than a single organization, they may operate across multiple shards, each testing a distinct philosophical or practical solution.

4. Timeline context: post-Elpis divergence
Since the Sundering occurs after the events of Elpis, both Venat and Emet-Selch have already departed from that point in the timeline.
This reinforces the idea that later interventions (including Halmarut’s actions) operate within a fractured, post-foundational reality where original consensus no longer exists.

5. Halmarut’s strategic collaboration hypothesis
My core theory is that Halmarut is secretly collaborating with Azem or acting in accordance with Azem’s legacy.
This would explain her apparent understanding of the Key’s function and her anticipation of what would occur as the Warrior of Light continues along their current trajectory.

6. Calyx as a controlled variable
Calyx is not an independent actor in the traditional sense.
He is effectively within Halmarut’s “sphere of control.”
He is literally existing in Halmarut's inventory (metaphorically or literally), then his approach to the Warrior of Light could not occur without her awareness.
This further supports the idea that Halmarut requires the Warrior of Light’s presence on the Fourth Shard as part of a larger design.

7. The trolley problem is illusory
There is always a third option.
The central question is not whether the world will end, but whether the Warrior of Light can recognize a path beyond binary outcomes.
In line with Azem’s philosophy, the assumption that there are only two choices may itself be the fundamental misdirection.

1. If this is the case there is no foreshadowing. Alisae asks this directly and rather than addressing the plot hole, Halmarut says "time immemorial" which means since time began, too long ago to matter, or is just deception. That isn't good writing. You enjoy Shadowbringers, which included deception that while not perfect, was executed with intent, especially upon a second viewing.

2. Right but they need to pick one or again, show awareness of the contradiction. Are the Winterer's forming contingency plans, pursuing rejoinings, or both? And how many times is blatant obfuscation going to be ok?

3. I am talking about the timeline. Hydaelyn dies. When do the interviews for these candidates occur. I am assuming all their activity will conviently begin post death and resolve seauentially for xpacs, which is contrived considering the time dilation element they totally give up on when convenient.

4. Elpis is not post sundering What? We were shown cinematics of what happens, that does not confirm the Elpis conjoined to us has experienced sundering. Halmarut and Azem theoretically would be there. Even if they aren't, you did not answer the "everyone is an idiot" or "she didn't tell anyone" problems. Was no one stidying this? Guess not. Contrived. So many people have to be oblivious that it means its all, once again, a herring.

5. This wouldn't really be a surprise. Our MC already suspects the Azem connection. Its predictable and needs more to be interesting, like Azem manipulating both Halmarut and WoL or something.

6. So he has bad dialogue because of Halmarut? My point is, why do we need to know his moral parameters? Also I think you are overlooking his tone regarding his "own designs". Based on his highly individualistic philosophy espoused as well, it gives me hints of double agent.

7. Right. The trailer spoils the happy ending.

Also to contextualize, I am not asking if this can be explained. It can be. I am pointing out the writing itself does not account for these possibilities effectively. When Halmarut says "Well I know because I have always known", our characters nod and say "Hmm maybe you are lying but maybe not". That is bad writing. You are giving logical resolutions to questions but those do not retroactively make this writing good. We will not look back on being duped and say "Wow she really tricked us" because she has no explanation for her own knowledge.

There is a major issue that I (potentially) see as well:

Halmarut wants to do a pre-emptive rejoining. The one about to happen is on the Fourth. But in order for a rejoining to happen, there must but a calamity on the Source to make the Source "want" the ice element, right? I do not see any evidence of this incoming calamity on the Source. We've heard nothing about it - we know the Source like our backyard at this point!

When we had a similar threat of an incoming rejoining, the 8th Umbral Calamity where we went to The First, we had this big threat ongoing with Black Rose. So where is this happening?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Also to contextualize, I am not asking if this can be explained. It can be. I am pointing out the writing itself does not account for these possibilities effectively. When Halmarut says "Well I know because I have always known", our characters nod and say "Hmm maybe you are lying but maybe not". That is bad writing. You are giving logical resolutions to questions but those do not retroactively make this writing good. We will not look back on being duped and say "Wow she really tricked us" because she has no explanation for her own knowledge.

---

1.
To be fair, the writing team for Shadowbringers and Endwalker is different from Dawntrail.
The core thematic is still present, but it can feel fragmented due to that shift in authorship.
A good comparison would be The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power, the foundation is familiar, but execution varies depending on the writers.
That said, I do think the narrative direction has noticeably improved starting around Patch 7.2.

2.
A significant number of event could have happened between the end of Endwalker and Patch 7.5.
This is especially important given that shards can operate on different time flows just like the First.
What we are seeing upon 7.5 are the results of the Winterer’s efforts (and quite possibly their failures), while the actual processes behind those outcomes are being deliberately withheld for 8.0.

3.
In regard to timeline plausibility of Halmarut’s actions, again, with differing shard time flows and no confirmed information about Halmarut’s whereabouts, there is enough narrative flexibility to make her involvement plausible.
If she truly was the one who provided the Azem Key to the Lalafells, then the timeline can still align without contradiction.

4.
In regard to the limits of Elpis as a narrative tool, the Elpis we can access exists in a pre-Sundering state.
By that point:

• Venat and Emet-Selch are no longer present
• Elidibus has already departed following the Pandæmonium events

So realistically, Elpis cannot provide new answers in the present
Tt’s effectively a preserved snapshot of the past, not an active source of intervention.

5.
The more critical mystery is: who is the voice?
Is it embedded within the Azem Key, or within Azem’s crystal?
Or is it something that only manifests when both are present together?
This distinction matters, because it directly ties into whether the guidance we’re receiving is Azem’s legacy or something else entirely.

6.
In regard to Calyx and the limits of the “Endless” solution, Calyx’s moral framework is ultimately secondary.
What matters is that he fully believes the “Endless” solution is correct.
He embodies that ideology.

However, Patch 7.3 already demonstrates the weaknesses of the Endless when confronted by the Warrior of Light.
That alone suggests his approach is flawed.
If anything, Halmarut likely views him as a failed experiment rather than a trusted ally. His most probable narrative role going forward is as a trial boss or stepping stone in 8.0.

7.
From a meta perspective, we already know the world won’t end the Warrior of Light will find a solution.
This is we breaking the 4th wall.

The real question isn’t the outcome, but the process.
How does the Warrior of Light arrive at that solution?
Do they follow the apparent binary choice or do they recognize, as Azem once did, that there is always a third option?

Dawntrial writing overall is problematic, i agreed, but I also thinks the writing has been improving since 7.02
I mean, 3.0 story writing was pretty bad too, especially the resistence part, but as time goes on, you can see writing is improved
What they need right now is consistency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

There is a major issue that I (potentially) see as well:

Halmarut wants to do a pre-emptive rejoining. The one about to happen is on the Fourth. But in order for a rejoining to happen, there must but a calamity on the Source to make the Source "want" the ice element, right? I do not see any evidence of this incoming calamity on the Source. We've heard nothing about it - we know the Source like our backyard at this point!

When we had a similar threat of an incoming rejoining, the 8th Umbral Calamity where we went to The First, we had this big threat ongoing with Black Rose. So where is this happening?

---

This is precisely why I believe Halmarut never intended to trigger a premature Rejoining.
Her actions point in a completely different direction.
More specifically, she appears to be attempting to replicate the original summoning of Hydaelyn, positioning herself as the new “heart” in the process, much like Venat once did.
If that’s the case, then everything we’re seeing her manipulation of events, her interaction with the Warrior of Light, and the framing of the crisis is to replace the system that sustain the Source and the Shards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

There is a major issue that I (potentially) see as well:

Halmarut wants to do a pre-emptive rejoining. The one about to happen is on the Fourth. But in order for a rejoining to happen, there must but a calamity on the Source to make the Source "want" the ice element, right? I do not see any evidence of this incoming calamity on the Source. We've heard nothing about it - we know the Source like our backyard at this point!

When we had a similar threat of an incoming rejoining, the 8th Umbral Calamity where we went to The First, we had this big threat ongoing with Black Rose. So where is this happening?

---

Theoretically this would need to at least begin during 7.5 part 2 or concurrently at some point during Evercold. It would complicate storytelling to do it during MSQ so I assume 7.5 msq or not at all, because its not really happening and the rejoinings are all a red herring. I don't exactly remember the timetable for the setup of the Eigth but I want to say the ball was rolling on that in the early patches with the mention of Black Rose. In any case I am almost certain it wasn't all set up in one patch, which means either writers forgot or its another indicator this premise is misdirection.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Divinemights

1.
To be fair, the writing team for Shadowbringers and Endwalker is different from Dawntrail.

---

I think a lot of people were expecting this to change for 8.0, but, despite the warm reception I am seeing to this patch, I unfortunately still see Dawntrail writer paws all over it. Again, your responses are plausible, but we won't know until the official story writes out these events, and I am not confident it will end up as such based on what characters are saying right now. I would love to be optimistic they have a specific vision such as what you have outlined, I'm just not seeing that in the writing right now. To be fair, I could be wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Divinemights

What we are seeing upon 7.5 are the results of the Winterer’s efforts (and quite possibly their failures), while the actual processes behind those outcomes are being deliberately withheld for 8.0.

---

This is a significant assumption for me. I am thinking about what Calyx's motivation would have even been in core DT and I don't see strong evidence he was even fully conceived outside of one scene. In this scene, Sphene pauses as a mech soldier watches her and tells WoL "wait-- I need to tell you something....nevermind". Unfortunately that scene is never followed up on and we don't see him until the patches. Once he's in the patches, he's trying to kill us with lasers and a primal which is inconsistent if an Ascian with full knowledge of us is helping him. This leads to me to believe his collaboration with Halmarut was written as late as 7.4 in early drafts. Then we get to 7.5, and I am being asked to believe this is all a carefully orchestrated misdirection. It's just a lot to buy when the writing itself is not supporting this theory organically, not even a little bit. I do think they're trying to get the player to think about whether or not Halmarut is lying, but that's only because the writers themselves do not yet know if she is lying. For example, as Jeeqbit noted, a calamity is required, and they really haven't gone of of their way to even hint about a ninth Calamity for ice yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Divinemights

In regard to the limits of Elpis as a narrative tool, the Elpis we can access exists in a pre-Sundering state.
By that point:

• Venat and Emet-Selch are no longer present
• Elidibus has already departed following the Pandæmonium events

So realistically, Elpis cannot provide new answers in the present

---

But this list is not an exhaustive list of possible ancients who could have interacted with Azem or Halmarut. If no one interacted with them at all and there's no meaningful material evidence of their activities, then this arc must have started explicitly after the Sundering rather then at time immemorial. I was thinking she would have been studying this even during the planning stages of Zodiark but let's say she did not or it did not occur to her. Even considering this, you would think Halmarut would have brought this up as we were getting close to achieving our objective of killing the Primals. Of course the truth is, she could not have done this, because she was not conceived beyond her position in the Convocation. Hence my point, why are we choosing to write ourselves into corners of our own making when it's not necessary whatsoever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Divinemights

The more critical mystery is: who is the voice?

---

Right, this is a nice mystery I do not have any particular problem with. Of course its implied that its Azem, but it could be someone else. I certainly think all parties involved are in one way or another pressuring us to pursue rejoinings and part of the ethical dilemma will be considering it versus some other choice. Of course I don't have to think that because it's in the writing, Alisae says it explicitly when she mentions saving everyone at the cost of oblivion. I do have an issue with casting Halmarut simply as a collaborator, servant, or otherwise pawn of Azem because that's very on the nose with existing Azem references but it's not out of the question for these writers. They would devote an entire patch to misdirection because as I've noted above, they change the story entirely between patches. If she ends up being an Azem collaborator fine, I will judge that based on how its executed. Nothing about their storytelling feels organic or deliberate. It feels like it's developing in real time by the hour.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Divinemights

In regard to Calyx and the limits of the “Endless” solution, Calyx’s moral framework is ultimately secondary.

---

Then why is it written into the patch? I highly suggest rewatching his scene with the WoL. Yes, he can only travel there by Halmarut's will (we assume) but that does not prove everything he says in the conversation can be discounted as her will or otherwise disregarded. He goes out of his way to tell us he finds the other Winterers "objectionable" then goes off on a tangent about how they possess unwavering ideals etc. That doesn't really serve a greater agenda, it just seems like his own personal insight about a story we are quite literally probably going to experience very soon. This reinforced visually, as he transitions from his toy form to his human form. He says:

"It is the culmination of our lives' works that we would bring to the world-- fruits born of undying devotion, daring aspiration and unwavering ideals. No matter how we are reviled, no matter what we must steal, our actions will be vindicated by those who abide in the future we create. In your benevolence, you may seek to save everything and everyone, but once all is consigned to oblivion, your noble deeds will amount to nothing more than folly, for no living soul will remain to judge them."

So he's not just talking about choices, he's talking about value systems applied to choices, motivations behind choices. He's associating self interest with positive outcomes and noble intentions with folly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Divinemights

Do they follow the apparent binary choice or do they recognize, as Azem once did, that there is always a third option

---

I think this is compelling in an abstract sense but not in a story when time and time again, our cast has in fact pursued other options, including in SHB and EW. When I look at the dialogue here, I see Halmarut mentioning Zenos and I see Calyx echoing her sentiments regarding ambition. So in my view, ambition is the thematic base layer of this xpac while the arc in general might deal with our alignment or lack thereof with Azem. The question Evercold will deal with is not so much whether we recognize a third option, but what that option will potentially cost us and what are our real motivations for pursuing it.

I don’t see why people think this should have been an anticipated outcome.

The ascians were aiming to rejoin all the shards anyway to return the unsundered world so this was never a consideration

Venat’s faction may have briefly considered what would happen if haedalyn died while the shards were still separated but it’s also possible that venat didn’t realise she’d have to use to her power to keep the shards seperate until it was already too late and the decision can’t be reserved

Given this I don’t know elpis would help.

The only two possible errors I can see are the the ascians in the thousands of years they have been active go for the key considering preservation was an ascian organisation and how Halmurant seems to know exactly how the solstice will play out rather than it being a “well founded fear of hers”

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

There is a major issue that I (potentially) see as well:

Halmarut wants to do a pre-emptive rejoining. The one about to happen is on the Fourth. But in order for a rejoining to happen, there must but a calamity on the Source to make the Source "want" the ice element, right? I do not see any evidence of this incoming calamity on the Source. We've heard nothing about it - we know the Source like our backyard at this point!

When we had a similar threat of an incoming rejoining, the 8th Umbral Calamity where we went to The First, we had this big threat ongoing with Black Rose. So where is this happening?

---

We cannot be sure if these preparations are still necessary, now that Hydealyn no longer keeps the reflections apart.

If Halmarut is to be believed the source is already in the process to rejoin everthing. I think Halmarut wants to speed up this process for single reflections to minimize the destruction on the source.

I still wonder if in the end we are going to have to remake a new Hydealyn and possibly a new Zodiark to take over the jobs they were once doing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Divinemights

This is precisely why I believe Halmarut never intended to trigger a premature Rejoining.
Her actions point in a completely different direction.
More specifically, she appears to be attempting to replicate the original summoning of Hydaelyn, positioning herself as the new “heart” in the process, much like Venat once did.
If that’s the case, then everything we’re seeing her manipulation of events, her interaction with the Warrior of Light, and the framing of the crisis is to replace the system that sustain the Source and the Shards

---

I actually was thinking that shed want the wol to become the next hydaelyn.. what else for the champion to do that to uphold the mothers legacy... good food here i love the theories

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Garruss

I still wonder if in the end we are going to have to remake a new Hydealyn and possibly a new Zodiark to take over the jobs they were one doing.

---

We actually have strong candidates for a new Hydaelyn and Zodiark.
Not only do they share a solid bond, but they’re also demonstrating the same opposing elements: Darkness and Light.

I enjoyed the 7.5 MSQ. I love that the Scions are back together, that we revisited Mor'dhona, and that our villain has a clear objective but that there is a possibility of infighting between their group. That's a setup for some interesting storytelling.

That being said I still feel that there is a lack of nuance and depth on display, especially in regards to politics, compared to previous entries in the story. For example, the Garleans seemed a little too cheery upon hearing some pretty basic platitudes from the twins trip to Tural. We also defeated what appeared to be a major player in the void and then convinced him to return home and start rebuilding the void with just a few words. Hopefully this flattening is just to move the story forward quickly and set up story points that will be explored in further detail later.

Also, I felt they need to do a better job explaining how Halmurat knows the Solstice will happen and why no other Ascian brought this up as a possibility. It feels like a massive oversight if Emet-Selch knew about this and didn't weaponize that info to demotivate us during the Rejoining explanations. If Halmarut kept it a secret even from her own kind, the 'why' and 'how' of that secrecy really needs some heavy lifting in the writing.

And my final point is that I do not like the Warrior of Light being compared to Zenos and hate/don't understand why they keep bringing up this plot point. If it’s just Halmarut trying to manipulate us by getting under our skin, I’m on board. But if the writers are trying to force a thematic parallel between us and Zenos again, it feels repetitive and honestly just misses the mark on who the Warrior of Light is (or at least who my Warrior of Light is).

The threat of the worlds crashing back together haphazardly b/c the one who was maintaining the artificial barrier separating them is now gone, just seems like the natural next step in the storyline to me. Rejoinings worked precisely b/c the world naturally tries to merge back together given the chance. That's why the aether of a shard flowed towards the Source once the barrier broke, instead of just dissipating into the cosmos or something. At least, that's what I always inferred.

And I'd say the Solstice is the threat this time. And the rejoinings thing is different this time around. The Ascians wanted to preserve/complete all life by joining it all with the source. Halmarut doesn't seem to care which shard of Etherys survives, just that one does. And only one, I assume, cus if its more than one you still have the solstice collision problem.

She seems to have essentially set up a competition btwn the world shards, with the winterers on each being the people she's decided give that shard it's best chance at survival. Or at least, they're the best chance on each shard that would actually listen to her.

By her informing us of her plans and the situation, we've basically been sneakily recruited. We're the source's winterers, the difference btwn us and the others being that we have the means to save everyone(we hope), not just our world.

I don't think this is just "Ascians and Rejoinings 2: Electric Boogaloo". Its just that there are persistent concepts in the world that are logically carrying through.

The Winterers really aren't "haha I'm a maniacal villain" type. They are more like "We've really tried everything in our power and came to the conclusion we're all screwed. Maybe you can find a better answer. Good luck!" type. That's why they don't really mind us hopping around reflections looking for the answers, because they think there isn't one and it's a waste of time looking for one.

Our WoLs aren't "Chosen hero defeats evil" anymore. We are now more like a philosophical mediator and representative of our world. We've evolved past fighting gods now. We are now fighting against ideas themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wasselin

Also, I felt they need to do a better job explaining how Halmurat knows the Solstice will happen and why no other Ascian brought this up as a possibility. It feels like a massive oversight if Emet-Selch knew about this and didn't weaponize that info to demotivate us during the Rejoining explanations. If Halmarut kept it a secret even from her own kind, the 'why' and 'how' of that secrecy really needs some heavy lifting in the writing.

---

Right. I am not sure why players are being so obtuse on this point. I can only consider they do not see the problem or prefer to focus more on the broader plot movement. We need way more information about who knew what and when, and if they don't know, the how and why that is the case. Vague conversations asking us to decide or antagonists deliberately punting the question is not satisfying and does not deliver confidence it will ever be addressed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiaDeem

If it only works correctly with Azem's power, that would easily explain it.
It's all a bit awkward. I'm gonna go and say Halmarut is lying for, whatever reason. Otherwise, while I like the concept, we just dealt with this a couple of years ago.

---

Lots of people used it before us with no Azem connection though?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Right. I am not sure why players are being so obtuse on this point. I can only consider they do not see the problem or prefer to focus more on the broader plot movement. We need way more information about who knew what and when, and if they don't know, the how and why that is the case. Vague conversations asking us to decide or antagonists deliberately punting the question is not satisfying and does not deliver confidence it will ever be addressed.



Lots of people used it before us with no Azem connection though?

---

Not "Lots of people" only a small handful of people, and they were only able to use it once and got stuck in the area they ported to. We literally just had a patch that explained Preservation trying to use it and failing to do so......

Just reading this thread, I'd like to give my two cents on what we're looking into for Evercold:

- Halmarut and the Winterers as a neutral antagonist, considering that we have the Solstice(natural rejoining, not the artificial ones the Ascians did in their original plot) - they have the same goal, but the methods differ from ours, as reputable as they can be(Calyx)

- The question of morality when it comes to what we have to decide in the face of certain doom - real doom this time(not the Song of Oblivion at the edge of the universe caused by Hermes) - do we sacrifice the things we care about to save the world? Do we do things we found questionable from past villains(Emet Selch, Elidibus, Zenos) to be able to actually make progress towards saving the star? Or do we go along as normal, only to find ourselves in the very position that Calyx warns us about?

- "Let none bar your path." That line in particular tells me that Azem wants(which, we can assume is Azem in the cutscene) us to unite the stars once more - but we're at odds. Rejoinings cause Calamities. Though it becomes a catch 22: Do you want to cause one calamity at a time, or do you want to cause the Solstice which will basically reset Etheirys to Factory Settings? The lesser of two evils is one thing to think about, but there is another path to take - we just haven't found it yet, but whatever it is, Azem does want us go on the path we choose regardless of who gets in the way.

Personally, this has actually raised the bar for me in regards to Evercold: Because this has the potential to be a story that can rival Shadowbringers in the community with what has already been put forth in 7.5.

What I will ask for the writing team to do is make the player's choices matter. Have it affect the story in some way, and change our approach to it. It'd provide a lot of opportunity that was heavily lacking in Dawntrail and player agency that we haven't had the chance to get before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Lots of people used it before us with no Azem connection though?

---

I thought the problem for everyone else is that it never behaved correctly or was ever fully useful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Right. I am not sure why players are being so obtuse on this point. I can only consider they do not see the problem or prefer to focus more on the broader plot movement. We need way more information about who knew what and when, and if they don't know, the how and why that is the case. Vague conversations asking us to decide or antagonists deliberately punting the question is not satisfying and does not deliver confidence it will ever be addressed.

---

My thoughts, although I would prefer if the story addressed your point and didn't just leave us to speculate: Halmarut the Ancient would not have known anything other than "nature heals itself"; she didn't know there would be Shards. Once awakened as an Ascian, maybe she realized this and brought it to Elidibus (who, with his patchy memory, just kind of melds it all into "we definitely need Rejoinings" where the reasons kind of escape him). There's a moment in a side quest where Elidibus returns to the Aetherial Sea and you hear his thought of something like "but with the way the Star is going now...", which would presumably refer to Halmarut's prediction. I don't see why Halmarut would feel the need to share it with everyone, considering they're doing Rejoinings before destroying Hydaelyn anyway so it doesn't even register an alarm bell. Afterwards, I'm guessing she decides to do what she's doing now and continue the work of either Rejoining or coming up with an alternate solution (Calyx and the Winterers).

I also think her talk about "time immemorial" is more a part of a performance for the WoL than anything. It sounds pretty cool, doesn't it? But yeah, she wouldn't have known about Shards auto-Rejoining until she woke up as an Ascian and there were Shards around.

Anyway, like I said, just some thoughts. Maybe the story will confirm one way or another eventually.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wasselin

And my final point is that I do not like the Warrior of Light being compared to Zenos and hate/don't understand why they keep bringing up this plot point. If it’s just Halmarut trying to manipulate us by getting under our skin, I’m on board. But if the writers are trying to force a thematic parallel between us and Zenos again, it feels repetitive and honestly just misses the mark on who the Warrior of Light is (or at least who my Warrior of Light is).

---

Like it or not the wol is a zenos foil. Without the scions and minfilia the wol could have been down a very different path. He even calls you his mirror. The Wol shows evidence of being a fiend for battle repeatedly in msq and side content. From elidibus unnerving you by slaughtering his specters, zenos final fight dialogue, and even the fight with gulool ja ja showing your eagerness for a battle. The extent of wols bloodthirst stops at whether they want to sacrifice innocent life or not. And the bonds they hold show that they want to maintain benevolence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dastan

Not "Lots of people" only a small handful of people, and they were only able to use it once and got stuck in the area they ported to. We literally just had a patch that explained Preservation trying to use it and failing to do so......

---

I mean, this is not accurate, but let's say it is. Zoraal Ja used it for reflection fusing. And he is about as Azem oriented as Tataru. So.

And to be honest I would love for them to be more mindful of things like this but their workflow apparently makes this hard (10 different writers including Yoshi P editing in he wants). I am sure they set this precedent with absolutely no regard. Thankfully we can at least say our connection to Azem does appear to give us a unique portal.

Remember when it answered to fervent Lala prayers? Pepperidge farm remembers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I mean, this is not accurate, but let's say it is. Zoraal Ja used it for reflection fusing. And he is about as Azem oriented as Tataru. So.
And to be honest I would love for them to be more mindful of things like this but their workflow apparently makes this hard (10 different writers including Yoshi P editing in he wants). I am sure they set this precedent with absolutely no regard. Thankfully we can at least say our connection to Azem does appear to give us a unique portal.
Remember when it answered to fervent Lala prayers? Pepperidge farm remembers.

---

It’s not that bad.
Preservation didn’t actually control the key and they simply figured out a way to trigger it.
I doubt they were able to choose the destination, much like those Lalafell from the Fifth.
And if that still feels insufficient as an explanation, then we could even assume that one of the members of Preservation was a shard of Azem on the 9th

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Divinemights

It’s not that bad.
Preservation didn’t actually control the key and they simply figured out a way to trigger it.
I doubt they were able to choose the destination, much like those Lalafell from the Fifth.
And if that still feels insufficient as an explanation, then we could even assume that one of the members of Preservation was a shard of Azem on the 9th

---

That doesn’t match either because Sphene was able to perfectly use the key to cut living memory away and send it back to the 9th right when we fought zarool ja

If only Azem shards can properly control the key then how did Sphene have such accuracy using it at that point

I will buy the millala potentially only managed to get it to work because it wanted to find its way into the hands of an Azem shard and the 9th Azem at the time was working with preservation but Sphene should not have had that much control over the key in base 7.0

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That doesn’t match either because Sphene was able to perfectly use the key to cut living memory away and send it back to the 9th right when we fought zarool ja

If only Azem shards can properly control the key then how did Sphene have such accuracy using it at that point

---

Right and also, as I alluded to, in 7.4 and even in core DT we are told over and over again its been used since time immemorial. Putting that aside, Emet and Venat both modified our Azem crystal. Many Ascians were on the Convocation and knew Azem. Are we going to argue Preservation can do it but not them? Fair enough, I think the story has sufficiently proven the key possibly could have served Ascians in some capacity beyond simple teleportation.

Halmarut is also supporting Calyx yet he desperately sought it so. Not a huge deal I just think.they need to slow down with the lore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wasselin

I enjoyed the 7.5 MSQ. I love that the Scions are back together, that we revisited Mor'dhona, and that our villain has a clear objective but that there is a possibility of infighting between their group. That's a setup for some interesting storytelling.

That being said I still feel that there is a lack of nuance and depth on display, especially in regards to politics, compared to previous entries in the story. For example, the Garleans seemed a little too cheery upon hearing some pretty basic platitudes from the twins trip to Tural. We also defeated what appeared to be a major player in the void and then convinced him to return home and start rebuilding the void with just a few words. Hopefully this flattening is just to move the story forward quickly and set up story points that will be explored in further detail later.

Also, I felt they need to do a better job explaining how Halmurat knows the Solstice will happen and why no other Ascian brought this up as a possibility. It feels like a massive oversight if Emet-Selch knew about this and didn't weaponize that info to demotivate us during the Rejoining explanations. If Halmarut kept it a secret even from her own kind, the 'why' and 'how' of that secrecy really needs some heavy lifting in the writing.

And my final point is that I do not like the Warrior of Light being compared to Zenos and hate/don't understand why they keep bringing up this plot point. If it’s just Halmarut trying to manipulate us by getting under our skin, I’m on board. But if the writers are trying to force a thematic parallel between us and Zenos again, it feels repetitive and honestly just misses the mark on who the Warrior of Light is (or at least who my Warrior of Light is).

---

I honestly would not be surprised if, in part 2 of the MSQ we make it official to the world. The Scions have reformed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by freshavocado

I actually was thinking that shed want the wol to become the next hydaelyn.. what else for the champion to do that to uphold the mothers legacy... good food here i love the theories

---

It would certainly be an effective way of getting rid of us for good by forcing us to become the new Mothercrystal (or Fathercrystal). Though it obviously won't actually happen, there's no telling what might happen to bring us to the brink of that decision.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Right and also, as I alluded to, in 7.4 and even in core DT we are told over and over again its been used since time immemorial. Putting that aside, Emet and Venat both modified our Azem crystal. Many Ascians were on the Convocation and knew Azem. Are we going to argue Preservation can do it but not them? Fair enough, I think the story has sufficiently proven the key possibly could have served Ascians in some capacity beyond simple teleportation.

---

The Ascians were on the Convocation and knew Azem, but the only remaining Ascians are sundered, and should only have the memories from their constellation crystals (which are not supposed to contain any information about Azem, having been deemed unworthy of commemoration). Not to say it's impossible for a current Ascian to have gained deep knowledge of Azem, but the story would have to explain how the Ascian acquired it.

But we know they were baffled that the Exarch managed to transport someone across the rift with a physical body, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Ascians are physically incapable of using the key the same way they can't maintain a physical form while traversing the rift. The sundered ones possess corpses and don't inhabit living bodies. Calyx can't use the key himself either — once Preservation loses the key, the living researchers are exterminated because they have no use anymore:

Draft Document: The only reason we retained our flesh was to serve Master Calyx as physical instruments to conduct his experiments.
Draft Document: Deprived of the object of our research, our existence serves no further purpose. I dare not imagine the depths of his disappointment in me.
Draft Document: The complex is to be shut down. All personnel will have their bodies reduced to aether, which will be allocated for further experimentation.
Draft Document: Memory data will be archived. Any Endless conversions will be subject to Master Calyx's discretion. If he does not deem us fit, then we are not deserving of eternal life.

My question is how does new lore not conflict with old lore. Why for example was Emet not aware of or using this tech. Why don't they know about the Solstice. Unless its all misdirection, the writers have made zero effort to resolve or even show awareness outside Hydaelyn, which wasn't solved, despite a cutscene and updating like 4 related npcs dialogue.

And really you can go further because they were also desaturating souls. With plans to harvest more. Why was he not all over this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

My question is how does new lore not conflict with old lore. Why for example was Emet not aware of or using this tech. Why don't they know about the Solstice. Unless its all misdirection, the writers have made zero effort to resolve or even show awareness outside Hydaelyn, which wasn't solved, despite a cutscene and updating like 4 related npcs dialogue.

And really you can go further because they were also desaturating souls. With plans to harvest more. Why was he not all over this.

---

They'll probably explain a lot of this later but it could easily be written off as he didn't care, he was planning on obliterating everyone anyway and offering up everything as a sacrifice to Zodiark to bring back all the ancients. If that all actually happened as planned the knowledge of the solstice wouldn't have mattered to him in the long run because it wouldn't have happened. With the events of DT one could make the assumption that the 9th was primed for a rejoining, similar to the 1st, but after Emet's defeat we truly don't know how time flowed on the 9th, so for all we know he was already dead by the time most of the soul stuff happened. The question of if Hydaelyn knew will probably be answered by Livingway in the .55 patch, they planted that question and they are very deliberate in their storytelling, so it'll likely get answered sooner rather than later. I also predict that most will be explained over the course of multiple expansions, they are just setting up a lot of questions at this point.