Idea for TBN

I've thought about this a little, and thought it would be a decent way to add some HP sacrifice to DRK while tackling the issue of TBN being annoying to break.

If you use TBN, it changes into another ability, let's just say Blood Price. Blood Price can be used to sacrifice 10% of your HP to break TBN's shield and grant you dark arts. This gives the player an option if they accidentally use TBN at the wrong time; either sacrifice 10% of your HP to not lose DPS, or if things are dire enough, just accept the DPS loss.

I think this could actually make DRK perform better in casual content. For example, I can't fit 5 edges into raid buff windows because I can't consistently pop TBN unless there's a well timed raid wide or tank buster. With this new TBN, I just HP sac to be able to fit that 5th edge of shadow. Yea yea, optimizing for casual content but what other fun is there to be had in that type of content. If anything, it brings more identity into casual DRK.

Maybe this could result in PF being terrorized by shitty DRK main tanks constantly taking extra damage, but I argue that's the core identity of DRK; great power at a cost. But a good DRK knows when to control themselves and accept the loss (or just get gud and break your TBNs properly). Nevertheless, designing jobs around bad players has already proven itself to be kind of shitty.

Or they can simply just change it to where if TBN absorbs 75% of the damage you still get the proc.

To be honest, in many situations TBN just needs a slightly longer duration for it to break

I appreciate your ideas too, but I feel like you guys missed the part of the post where I mention the 5 edge tech is locked behind the fight design itself, unless you want to stand in AOEs and get possible damage downs. I'm thinking of the M9S Coffinkiller, where you NEED to avoid AOEs to avoid damage down and buffing the boss, and there's very rarely a chance where you can actually use TBN there since it's all avoidable damage. Yeah you could extend the duration, but that's just a bandaid fix and still leaves TBN outside the players control. The idea for something like this is for TBN to remain in the players control, while also adding some needed identity to DRK. But every idea has its flaws.

Using the Edge outside of the buff window as opposed to inside the buff window is ~1% increase in the total potency in just those 20 seconds. If you take it over the full 2 minutes, the total potency gained is going to be far lower. Is it really worth sacrificing 10% of your HP for a <1% increase in damage every 2 minutes?

For an instance where the Dark Arts is used out outside the buff window, if TBN doesn't break, it was a bad use for TBN and you should have used something else instead. Learning point for next time.

I think you have put way too much emphasis on the potency lost by losing 1 Edge of Shadow in a burst window as opposed to it falling outside the window.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Is it really worth sacrificing 10% of your HP for a <1% increase in damage every 2 minutes?

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Yes, because a well timed Carve and Spit/Souleater can recover at least half of that, all of it if the cure crits. And it's not just about the 5th edge, it's also about those cases where it only just barely makes it to breaking, openers where it's optimal for TBN to break for the first two auto attacks (which 2 fights in this tier lack), etc. You could offer the same solution as the others above, but by doing so you kind of lessen the identity of TBN being a punishing skill that takes mastery, and don't address the lack of player control. Not to say their ideas are bad, I just think there's better and more creative ways to tackle this that are faithful to DRK's lore.

My mistake for seeming like I put a lot of emphasis on the 5th edge, but what I'm looking for is just more control over TBN. Yeah, if TBN doesn't break it's obvious you should use it elsewhere, but you're forgetting the fact that TBN will stop breaking in places it normally would because it inherently punishes you for gearing up. Better gear = more hp/defense = harder for shields to break. The idea behind the HP sac is to keep the punishment behind the misuse of TBN, but in a less obnoxious way.

If 10% is too much, what you could do is make the HP consumption scale with the amount of shield left. 100% of the shield = 10% HP sac, <50% = 5% hp sac, etc.

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Originally Posted by Sazuzaki

but by doing so you kind of lessen the identity of TBN being a punishing skill that takes mastery, and don't address the lack of player control. Not to say their ideas are bad, I just think there's better and more creative ways to tackle this that are faithful to DRK's lore.

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TBN not breaking IS the punishment. By having something the bypasses that punishment and has another effect, in this case, taking 10% of your HP (or whatever value would be used), you take away from the skill expression of that initial usage, especially if you say that you can immediately negate that punishment via the heal from Carve and Spit and Souleater. Not that you can guarantee them being used close to the usage of 'Blood Price', so it will likely be healed by other means.

I do feel this whole thing is more a way to keep your current rotation rather than being something to 'improve' DRK in some way. All that really has happened here is that you can use TBN, then use Blood Price to forgo any sort of skill expression in using TBN and trying to get it to break.

Which is why I highlighted the minimal gain from that last edge in a burst window. You will generate the same amount of MP in a fight regardless of what you do. You seem to have this fixation that you need that 5th edge in the burst window, likely so you feel better about performing it. However, altering and adjusting your rotation to fit the fight is another way to express that skill. Not using TBN allows extra MP to be utilised elsewhere for minimal loss, for example, having an extra edge or even flood to go after adds.

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Originally Posted by Sazuzaki

I appreciate your ideas too, but I feel like you guys missed the part of the post where I mention the 5 edge tech is locked behind the fight design itself, unless you want to stand in AOEs and get possible damage downs. I'm thinking of the M9S Coffinkiller, where you NEED to avoid AOEs to avoid damage down and buffing the boss, and there's very rarely a chance where you can actually use TBN there since it's all avoidable damage. Yeah you could extend the duration, but that's just a bandaid fix and still leaves TBN outside the players control. The idea for something like this is for TBN to remain in the players control, while also adding some needed identity to DRK. But every idea has its flaws.

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Eh she deals enough autoattack damage, just let her hit you twice.

Although I don't feel comfortable with tools such as TBN in a damage-centric tank-design game like FFXIV, anyways. I wish there was another defensive use locked behind it instead.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

TBN not breaking IS the punishment. By having something the bypasses that punishment and has another effect, in this case, taking 10% of your HP (or whatever value would be used), you take away from the skill expression of that initial usage, especially if you say that you can immediately negate that punishment via the heal from Carve and Spit and Souleater. Not that you can guarantee them being used close to the usage of 'Blood Price', so it will likely be healed by other means.

I do feel this whole thing is more a way to keep your current rotation rather than being something to 'improve' DRK in some way. All that really has happened here is that you can use TBN, then use Blood Price to forgo any sort of skill expression in using TBN and trying to get it to break.

Which is why I highlighted the minimal gain from that last edge in a burst window. You will generate the same amount of MP in a fight regardless of what you do. You seem to have this fixation that you need that 5th edge in the burst window, likely so you feel better about performing it. However, altering and adjusting your rotation to fit the fight is another way to express that skill. Not using TBN allows extra MP to be utilised elsewhere for minimal loss, for example, having an extra edge or even flood to go after adds.

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Definitely not the only reason; I just wish XIV's Dark Knight was more faithful to the series depiction of it rather than trying to purely be functional as a job in an MMO. A 5th edge is just one of the better reasons I can see on why more control over TBN would be a good thing, but you're wrong about that being the prime reason I want to see something like this. I know I brought that up a lot, but that's just one of the better reasons I can see this being added, and something people seemed to gloss over, so I just pointed that out again.

You did point out on if 10% was worth the damage increase from a 5th edge, and now you're also saying that it forgoes any skill expression. The idea is that TBN stays the same, and you SHOULD be trying to pop it naturally with damage, but it gives the player more control on what they want to do. Is it worth sacrificing HP to not cook your burst? Are you going to take more auto damage after you proc it? The HP sac is just a factor that can be changed depending on how punishing the want it to be if it doesn't break, and to keep the idea that TBN is a punishing skill while making it less dependent on variables that are outside your control. Also, I want to clarify savage is not the only content I want to focus on, I'm talking about casual content too. You use TBN and the WHM starts using Holy? Tough luck I guess. Sure I can coordinate, but how many randoms do you really think are going to care enough to do that? This can also be applied to healer mitigation which ALSO leads to TBN not breaking. You catch my drift?

Yeah TBN not breaking is the punishment, and to be honest, I wouldn't care that much if TBN stayed the same. My suggestion is here mainly for thinking of ways to reduce TBNs jank (like it punishing you for gearing up, the WHM stunlock, many that are already common knowledge) and adding a way XIV's DRK could have HP sac, but HP sac does come with the con of that being someone else's problem rather than yours. However, I do wish people were more open-minded to the idea of HP sac because there are certainly ways to include such a feature without it being obnoxious.

Yeah true and the only consistent thing FF versions have shown is sacrificing HP, usually for extra damage. Beyond that Dark Knight has always been pretty variable.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Eh she deals enough autoattack damage, just let her hit you twice.

Although I don't feel comfortable with tools such as TBN in a damage-centric tank-design game like FFXIV, anyways. I wish there was another defensive use locked behind it instead.

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I don't believe Vamp auto attacks during Coffinkiller, which is why it's kind-of doodoo to try to proc it anywhere there. I haven't recleared it in a while though so I could be missing something

I wouldn't mind if TBN became purely defensive, but they would have to change the MP economy elsewhere in the job so that management identity doesn't goto waste. This is why I agree with HW DRK should've been the foundation to 5.0 DRK. Just find a way to smoothe out and streamline the issues that came with its initial release.

That being said, I wanted to thank everyone for engaging in this topic. I appreciate hearing everyone's perspectives.

Just give me 3 more secs on my tbn and I tbn my co tank and gain my edge. Ezpz

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Originally Posted by Sazuzaki

Yeah TBN not breaking is the punishment, and to be honest, I wouldn't care that much if TBN stayed the same. My suggestion is here mainly for thinking of ways to reduce TBNs jank (like it punishing you for gearing up, the WHM stunlock, many that are already common knowledge) and adding a way XIV's DRK could have HP sac, but HP sac does come with the con of that being someone else's problem rather than yours. However, I do wish people were more open-minded to the idea of HP sac because there are certainly ways to include such a feature without it being obnoxious.

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I think this is going to be a agree to disagree situation, however:

-TBN not breaking is the punishment, adding blood price negates that punishment (as you will always use it, even if it is at 1 second left of TBN). This essentially makes the skill use 3000 MP for a shield, if it doesn't break, you lose 10% HP, as opposed to lose an edge/flood. The punishment is far less so you don't need to plan the TBN at all as you know you can pop it at any time.
-As for WHM in trash packs, why are you using TBN when the WHM has started to use Holy? 99% of WHMs are going to use Holy at the start of a trash pull, so it is then the skill of the DRK to not use TBN in that window.

(This applies to Carighan as well) The devs didn't want DRK to sacrifice HP, this is a consistent thing since DRK's release in HW, so, instead, they made them sacrifice MP, with the DRK's MP economy being entirely managed by the DRK themselves and that was their compromise.

I have made many posts in the past about HP sac and as a short summary, if the DRK could recover HP in some way, it would either be too much healing or too little, too much invalidates the healer, too little gives healers extra to heal. There is also the frequency at which you can sacrifice HP as well as how much you sacrifice. Too often, you run the risk of not having enough HP to survive mechanics (at which point it is the healer's fault for not healing enough) or too little and it is inconsequential that you don't have to work around it at all. There is also gear differences as well as a slew of other factors. This might again be an agree to disagree situation, but that is a short summary of my thoughts.

If you never lose the edge/flood, wouldn't it be far "cleaner" design to just remove the 10% buff entirely then? It will be impossible to not keep up, so there's no reason to have it any more.

(And honestly I'd go further, remove edge, remove flood, and make TBN take 100% of available mana for a variable amount of shield of variable duration, both based on MP consumed, but that's just me)

And yeah I know, MP is what they use instead, it's just a bit meh because it means they can never square it with previous iterations of Dark Knights. Although to be fair FFXIV is so big and so long-lived, it is the authority on what say, "Dark Knight" as a class means. Not the older games.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

-As for WHM in trash packs, why are you using TBN when the WHM has started to use Holy? 99% of WHMs are going to use Holy at the start of a trash pull, so it is then the skill of the DRK to not use TBN in that window.

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I think you missed my point. The point was DRK needlessly clashes with the design of WHM, and I simply am speculating ways that the inherent flaws of TBN could be mitigated without sacrificing identity. But to touch on that, I think it's a little disingenuous to say that 99% of White Mages do that especially in an MMO setting where player habits differ. At level 100, WHM has a 2-min burst that replaces Holy during AOE situations, and it doesn't stun. So that begs the question: is the WHM going to start the pack with their 2 min? Are they going to hold a few GCDs with Holy before they 2 min? What if they wait for me to TBN, and I wait for them to Holy? Are they gonna wait to Holy so they can stun the mob AOE spam? All of this has happened to me, and it happens pretty often. There's no real point in trying to coordinate in the easiest content in the game with every single party I queue into, but it's also annoying when that happens. Also, you didn't really touch on the fact that external mitigation can just straight up prevent TBN from breaking. For example, I TBN some SAM who just got hit by an AOE and a raid wide is about to kill them. The WHM applies Benison, they use third eye, and I use reprisal. BAM TBN doesn't break because we all mit too much to save the guys life... Yet I got punished for literally doing my job. There's factors that are out of my control and I can't exactly predict because again player habits differ.

We definitely both have stubborn views and aren't going to change each other's minds, but I appreciate the discussion nonetheless. Every opinion/idea should be counteracted by an opposite. But I also think we shouldn't be so quick to disagree. I agree with you on the fact that 90% of DRK's would abuse that as a way to make up for their lack of skill on TBN. But I think it may be a little overblown because sacrificing HP as a tank is kind of a big deal, which is why I think it's a fitting punishment for failing to break TBN. Hell if I were designing the skill, that shit would be 25% of your HP rather than just 10% because as I said, that could just be recovered with a CnS/Souleater. It's not like it would be out of character for DRK either because Living Dead exists. With all that being said, it's not like any of this would ever actually be implemented, but it's fun to imagine possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

If you never lose the edge/flood, wouldn't it be far "cleaner" design to just remove the 10% buff entirely then? It will be impossible to not keep up, so there's no reason to have it any more.

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Already kind of like that to be honest. If you lose an edge, all you need to do is just use another edge. All TBN really does if it doesn't break is just make your burst more boring. It's a punishment, but not exactly a fun one. But that's just my view.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Although to be fair FFXIV is so big and so long-lived, it is the authority on what say, "Dark Knight" as a class means. Not the older games.

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Ehhh.... I see where you're coming from. If XIV had been more bold with their class design, I would agree. However, they're prioritizing streamlining the jobs over fun atm which is my main issue, but that's also just my opinion. I don't mind DRK being more of a Mystic/Magic Knight in XIV, but they need to make it thematic enough to really push an identity for it. I just don't really see the 'darkness' in how current DRK plays.

The main consensus I see is

1) Needs to maintain ( or extend) class identity, aka, skill expression
2) What causes a lack of skill expression is out of the players control

As a result, removing the dps aspect of tbn is

So here is my take ->

1) Make TBN refund in the form of blood. Now smart, consistent use of TBN is a dps increase over flood ( instead of neutral). Bad use still negative. ( edit -> i know the extra flood in burst is a dps increase, but it just feels meh. Also fits in better with point 2)

2) Because it's in the form of blood, partial TBN breaks refund partial blood. This way at least being close to breaking is dps neutral.

3) Calculate blood gain based on damage taken if no external defensive's existed. The drk screwing up causing to much self defensive, skill issue. The pf tank/healers being inconsistent and randomly throwing tons of mit on you out of nowhere screwing up your dps, rage issue. ( It is rare, but it has happened to me). EDIT -> I might have not thought this third point through, it does make for a really broken off tank button. hmm...



The only other things I can think require a full rework of the job, or a boring flat mit with no dps ties.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

Just give me 3 more secs on my tbn and I tbn my co tank and gain my edge. Ezpz

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I think this just kinda defeats the purpose of having it have to break in the first place. it would pretty much always break then.

I don't know why but if you suggest TBN should just function like any other tank cooldown people will be angry so they come up with convoluted ways to defend it.

Personally I think a ALL risk no reward cooldown sucks, so TBN should either reward you for good use or just be no risk, either works for me I just dont want a cooldown that's only punishment. As said above me giving 10 blood gauge and a free MP use of flood would be awesome quite honestly, it does need to be a Very small increase in total dps but giving DRK something to optimize would be lovely.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Personally I think a ALL risk no reward cooldown sucks, so TBN should either reward you for good use or just be no risk, either works for me I just dont want a cooldown that's only punishment. As said above me giving 10 blood gauge and a free MP use of flood would be awesome quite honestly, it does need to be a Very small increase in total dps but giving DRK something to optimize would be lovely.

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I like it. If breaking TBN gives a little gauge in addition to the current Dark Arts, it’s a slight situational DPS gain. It’s an avenue for skill expression and it also gives a stronger tie between the offensive and defensive kits of DRK. (That’s something that’s sadly lacking from many jobs: abilities that interact with each other and form a synergistic whole.) If gauge overcapping is problematic you could have it give an instant retributive strike against whatever broke it instead.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I think this just kinda defeats the purpose of having it have to break in the first place. it would pretty much always break then.

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Yeah a better fix would be to give it invuln-like client-priority. Meaning it starts absorbing the moment you press the button, not ~2 seconds later.

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Originally Posted by Sazuzaki

I think you missed my point. The point was DRK needlessly clashes with the design of WHM, and I simply am speculating ways that the inherent flaws of TBN could be mitigated without sacrificing identity. But to touch on that, I think it's a little disingenuous to say that 99% of White Mages do that especially in an MMO setting where player habits differ. ....

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There is an argument to be made that at that point, we are trying to optimise dungeon runs with random people and ultimately, it doesn't matter. You cannot predict anything at that point just try and adapt on the fly, sometimes you get it right, sometimes you get it wrong, all that matters is the dungeon is completed.

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Originally Posted by Sazuzaki

Also, you didn't really touch on the fact that external mitigation can just straight up prevent TBN from breaking. For example, I TBN some SAM who just got hit by an AOE and a raid wide is about to kill them. The WHM applies Benison, they use third eye, and I use reprisal. BAM TBN doesn't break because we all mit too much to save the guys life... Yet I got punished for literally doing my job. There's factors that are out of my control and I can't exactly predict because again player habits differ.

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First thing, a dead Samurai is going to cost more damage than losing out on a Flood/Edge. Second, with shields, the one with the shortest duration takes priority, in this case, TBN's mitigation would be used up before Benison. But this is a specific scenario where we don't even know if the damage would kill the Samurai, would TBN be too much?, would an Oblation have been fine? Did they even need extra mitigation in the first place? etc. It is again a situation that you cannot optimise. (However, just to bring this back to your OP, at great power [allowing the SAM to live] at a cost [a use of flood/edge] is, in your words, the identity of DRK).

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Originally Posted by Sazuzaki

We definitely both have stubborn views and aren't going to change each other's minds, but I appreciate the discussion nonetheless. Every opinion/idea should be counteracted by an opposite. But I also think we shouldn't be so quick to disagree.

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It is refreshing to see someone who actually wants to have these discussions. However, I do still stand by the fact that HP sacrifice shouldn't be used in the pursuit of more damage. In the case of Living Dead, you don't sacrifice your own HP, the initial part is just Holmgang after all and I don't think anyone is going to claim Holmgang is a HP sacrifice. Living Dead then allows you to heal up the HP once you have 'died'. The difference to a HP sacrifice then is that you can die before you get healed, there is no safety net and again, you cannot guarantee a Souleater or Carve and Spit coming soon after the HP sacrifice, so they aren't reliable and a healer is likely going to heal it up before then.

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Originally Posted by Sazuzaki

I've thought about this a little, and thought it would be a decent way to add some HP sacrifice to DRK while tackling the issue of TBN being annoying to break.

If you use TBN, it changes into another ability, let's just say Blood Price. Blood Price can be used to sacrifice 10% of your HP to break TBN's shield and grant you dark arts. This gives the player an option if they accidentally use TBN at the wrong time; either sacrifice 10% of your HP to not lose DPS, or if things are dire enough, just accept the DPS loss.

I think this could actually make DRK perform better in casual content. For example, I can't fit 5 edges into raid buff windows because I can't consistently pop TBN unless there's a well timed raid wide or tank buster. With this new TBN, I just HP sac to be able to fit that 5th edge of shadow. Yea yea, optimizing for casual content but what other fun is there to be had in that type of content. If anything, it brings more identity into casual DRK.

Maybe this could result in PF being terrorized by shitty DRK main tanks constantly taking extra damage, but I argue that's the core identity of DRK; great power at a cost. But a good DRK knows when to control themselves and accept the loss (or just get gud and break your TBNs properly). Nevertheless, designing jobs around bad players has already proven itself to be kind of shitty.

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They should simply increase the duration of the ability, i use it on tankbusters or big pulls to make sure it breaks in time, aside from that i spam Edge and Flood abilities until i have 3000 MP left for TBN assuming duty is above lv 70

If TBN also gave 50 blood gauge, 3 stacks of delirium, reduce the cooldown on Shadowbringer by 1 minute, and reset the cooldown on Carve and Spit WHEN it breaks, THEN it would be worth saving 3k MP for TBN...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

If TBN also gave 50 blood gauge, 3 stacks of delirium, reduce the cooldown on Shadowbringer by 1 minute, and reset the cooldown on Carve and Spit WHEN it breaks, THEN it would be worth saving 3k MP for TBN...

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