Adloquium and Eukrian Diagnosis should be a guaranteed crit outside of combat.

It wouldn't necessarily add too much to SCH and SGE, but it would make their ability to shield before a pull more consistent. It'll block a few extra autoattacks in endgame content at the start of the fight if you get a crit shield, and SCH getting to spread the critted Galvanize to the group without having to spend Recitation.

So I suggest that the single target shield heals should be a guaranteed critical if the Healer or their target isn't in combat.

I'd do the opposite actually (ensure you cannot crit) but otherwise I agree. Removes the need for the spam-shielding.

Does SCH really need another buff

That basically frees up an extra use of recitation while still getting the benefits of spreadlo at the start of a fight

I can understand the reasoning behind it, but wouldn’t this just be kind of like a buff to Scholar? Sage can’t spread their shields, so outside of manually using E. Diagnosis on all 8 party members it wouldn’t make a difference to them. I could understand if if shielding was basically all they could do, but they have a pretty hefty amount of powerful direct heals and regens and ogcd shields to fall back on

I can’t speak for Sage but I think this would just make Scholar even more of a guaranteed raid slot. Between Seraph, Seraphism, and Recitation only being on a 60s cooldown, it seems wholly unnecessary for them to also guarantee they have a crit deployment at the start of battle at no cost.

It would make dungeons pretty hilarious as well if you could have a guaranteed critical Adloquium and Recitation-Excogitation on the tank in between every single pull (not that it would matter with how strong tanks are now, they probably wouldn’t even break or proc lol)

It wouldn’t really fit with raid design either because the ‘party wide unavoidable aoe attack’ is almost always the very first thing they do. It’d be completely invalidated by this change, so there wouldn’t be much of a point to them anymore besides being a ‘do you have a sch to make this do 0’ check lol. Invalidating it with use of a (very short cool-down) ‘valuable’ ability at least has some sort of ‘cost’ involved.

That said, I can understand the issue of ‘you have to wait for a Scholar / Sage to shield pre-battle because of the prevalence of “opens with aoe attack” bosses’. Like we could at least get a little bit more variety lol. Though there are some bosses that don’t do the standard ‘opens with aoe’ too I guess so they are there (somewhere lol), like the horse thing boss in Mistwake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Connor

I can understand the reasoning behind it, but wouldn’t this just be kind of like a buff to Scholar? Sage can’t spread their shields, so outside of manually using E. Diagnosis on all 8 party members it wouldn’t make a difference to them. I could understand if if shielding was basically all they could do, but they have a pretty hefty amount of powerful direct heals and regens and ogcd shields to fall back on

I can’t speak for Sage but I think this would just make Scholar even more of a guaranteed raid slot. Between Seraph, Seraphism, and Recitation only being on a 60s cooldown, it seems wholly unnecessary for them to also guarantee they have a crit deployment at the start of battle at no cost.

It would make dungeons pretty hilarious as well if you could have a guaranteed critical Adloquium and Recitation-Excogitation on the tank in between every single pull (not that it would matter with how strong tanks are now, they probably wouldn’t even break or proc lol)

It wouldn’t really fit with raid design either because the ‘party wide unavoidable aoe attack’ is almost always the very first thing they do. It’d be completely invalidated by this change, so there wouldn’t be much of a point to them anymore besides being a ‘do you have a sch to make this do 0’ check lol. Invalidating it with use of a (very short cool-down) ‘valuable’ ability at least has some sort of ‘cost’ involved.

That said, I can understand the issue of ‘you have to wait for a Scholar / Sage to shield pre-battle because of the prevalence of “opens with aoe attack” bosses’. Like we could at least get a little bit more variety lol. Though there are some bosses that don’t do the standard ‘opens with aoe’ too I guess so they are there (somewhere lol), like the horse thing boss in Mistwake.

---

Well, Deployment Tactics doesn't spread the Catalyze from a crit, only the basic Galvanize, which does still benefit from a crit as it shields based on the amount healed which is going to be higher with a crit. It'd mostly just be kind of like starting with a stronger Succor for SCH if used with Deployment.

It would be a buff for mostly SCH because of Deployment, since I don't know if the SGE shields would last long enough that you could realistically shield everyone one by one before a pull for them all to last until the first raidwide. Maybe they could give SGE their own version of Deployment Tactics. But ultimately, I honestly don't think it would really matter much beyond that first raidwide hit anyways for non-dungeon content.
The content it would have probably be biggest impact in would deep dungeons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Well, Deployment Tactics doesn't spread the Catalyze from a crit, only the basic Galvanize, which does still benefit from a crit as it shields based on the amount healed which is going to be higher with a crit. It'd mostly just be kind of like starting with a stronger Succor for SCH if used with Deployment.

It would be a buff for mostly SCH because of Deployment, since I don't know if the SGE shields would last long enough that you could realistically shield everyone one by one before a pull for them all to last until the first raidwide. Maybe they could give SGE their own version of Deployment Tactics. But ultimately, I honestly don't think it would really matter much beyond that first raidwide hit anyways for non-dungeon content.
The content it would have probably be biggest impact in would deep dungeons.

---

If it’s more for specific content, I could definitely see them doing it ‘just in that content’. Like having it apply just to deep dungeons or variants or whatever, but then it doesn’t apply to things like expert or normal (savage?) raiding. I still think making it ‘universal’ might be a bit too much, at least given Scholar’s current design with Seraph and Seraphism giving it such easy access to free or powerful instant use shielding. But I could see the case for adding it in content ‘where the Scholar is healing alone [and there’s an actual need for the healing lol]’ like later level deep dungeons or quantum variants or whatever else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Connor

If it’s more for specific content, I could definitely see them doing it ‘just in that content’. Like having it apply just to deep dungeons or variants or whatever, but then it doesn’t apply to things like expert or normal (savage?) raiding. I still think making it ‘universal’ might be a bit too much, at least given Scholar’s current design with Seraph and Seraphism giving it such easy access to free or powerful instant use shielding. But I could see the case for adding it in content ‘where the Scholar is healing alone [and there’s an actual need for the healing lol]’ like later level deep dungeons or quantum variants or whatever else.

---

I'm suggesting it should be for all content, also you CAN currently do what I'm suggesting should be the default by just spamming Adlo until you do get a crit.
Hence why I don't think it would be a huge buff. It would only really be a buff if you wanted to crit Adlo both tanks in 8-man content before the pull since you could now do it without spending Recetiation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Hence why I don't think it would be a huge buff. It would only really be a buff if you wanted to crit Adlo both tanks in 8-man content before the pull since you could now do it without spending Recetiation.

---

I could understand that perspective if Recitation had the sole effect of making the next Adloquium/Succor critical. But having access to an extra, entirely free Indomitability or Excogitation on top of everything else just seems ‘too much’.

And I mean, maybe the devs see spamming Adloquium as like, a ‘time cost’ lol. Again I can understand it in certain cases, but I don’t think making it a universal thing that every shield outside of battle automatically crits would work very well. It’s already an extremely strong healer even outside of shields (*laughs in Seraphism Emergency Tactics spam*), so it doesn’t really seem necessary to me when they already have so many alternative tools to use when Deployment isn’t available.

I guess the point is that, while I accept ‘it wouldn’t be a “massive” or “gamebreaking” as I suggested before I still think it would be veering into the ‘too much’ territory personally. Personally I think it’s ok sometimes for jobs to have points that require ‘working around’ and understanding the toolkit to get the most out of it, I.E determining if/when to use Recitation on opener.

Which granted is mostly invalidated by ‘there’s practically always a raid aoe to start so you’re pretty much using it anyway’, but I’d argue that’s more an issue with raid design necessitating the need for deployment at the start of (almost) every fight as opposed to with the job design itself. I mean, I wouldn’t like quit the game or say Scholar was ‘broken forever’ if they did make this change, just that I personally think it’s not really needed when taking a holistic view of Scholar’s capabilities (as a healer at least lol)

Wouldn't this issue also be solvable by removing all buffs on all players the moment an "important" fight (a boss in a dungeon or 8man or so) starts? No pre-shielding, no pre-regen, no nothing. Even grounds for everyone.

Why are we trying to prevent use of recitation early

Recitation is already far far too powerful and should be nerfed, not buffed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Why are we trying to prevent use of recitation early

Recitation is already far far too powerful and should be nerfed, not buffed

---

Because the only situation it would replace Recitation is fights where you have two tanks and a boss that hits both of them. Because once again, you can achieve a crit on the main tank before the pull by just spamming Adlo/Eukrasia until you roll it.
A guaranteed crit before the pull would just make it more consistent, and it would allow SGE to do it as well since they don't have a version of Recitation.

I mean that happens enough that it’s still a pointlessly excessive buff for SCH, paired tankbusters in the first 30 seconds aren’t uncommon and double autos are just as common as they aren’t

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean that happens enough that it’s still a pointlessly excessive buff for SCH, paired tankbusters in the first 30 seconds aren’t uncommon and double autos are just as common as they aren’t

---

I would point out that the "excessive buff" would to some extent be for both SCH and SGE, and is that tanks in Extreme and Savage start off enough shielding for a few auto attacks from the boss. SCH gets slightly more since they can spread the crit Adlo, but Deployment would only spread half of the shield because it doesn't spread Catalyze.

Ultimately, for Extreme and Savage, it wouldn't even be all that impactful as the shield's mostly spent by the time the boss does anything other than auto-attacks.
For dungeons, they're not even hard to begin with but would make them easier.
Deep Dungeons, you would get a good amount of extra shield going into every mob.

Deployment only spreading galvanise is a null point because of how much more powerful adlo is on a per shield basis than succor but honestly the problem isn’t deployment it’s recitation.

Recitation is just too powerful simply because it can do so many things. It’s not only what you use for spreadlo but it also allows for critcog and critdom (~664 potency AOE heal with no cost or ~1328 potency heal bomb with no cost on one target)

Any change you make that frees up a use of recitation is a buff to SCH and a pretty big one. Think if you did this and there was a shared TB in the first 30 seconds you now have one extra free recitation OR the tank who would have consumed your recitation to get the second critlo/critcog can now basically use that mitigation wherever else they want in the first 2 minutes. The second option is a benefit SGE would get in this change but the first is exclusively a SCH benefit as SGE has no answer to recitation

I would argue it's not a buff at all, because either way you start the fight with a crit shield ready to go.

It just differs whether you spend 0 (my solution, no shields from before fight persist into the fight), 1 (OP's solution) or 1-X GCDs getting there. You start with the crit shield regardless.

I'm not sure I want to see devs shoehorning SCHs to almost always use (crit) spreadlo at beginning even more with this change, because ultimately not all fights demands the degree of crit spreadlo mitigative potential that early (It always pains me to see random SCH opt to use Recitspreadlo everytime it's up but half of the time not getting consumed). I, for one do not always start any floors with a (crit) spreadlo simply because it was also the time when people tend to overmitigate. Why waste a spreadlo or recit that early when you can potentially move it to handle something else? Regular spreadlo still have some use, yanno?

For SGE? Why do they even need Differential Diagnosis lol...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Deployment only spreading galvanise is a null point because of how much more powerful adlo is on a per shield basis than succor but honestly the problem isn’t deployment it’s recitation.

Recitation is just too powerful simply because it can do so many things. It’s not only what you use for spreadlo but it also allows for critcog and critdom (~664 potency AOE heal with no cost or ~1328 potency heal bomb with no cost on one target)

Any change you make that frees up a use of recitation is a buff to SCH and a pretty big one. Think if you did this and there was a shared TB in the first 30 seconds you now have one extra free recitation OR the tank who would have consumed your recitation to get the second critlo/critcog can now basically use that mitigation wherever else they want in the first 2 minutes. The second option is a benefit SGE would get in this change but the first is exclusively a SCH benefit as SGE has no answer to recitation

---

If you're going to use Recitation on Excog, then this wouldn't really even change anything. Because recitation still is on a 60s CD alongside excog's 45s CD. And you can't even pre-cast Excog without spending Recitation because you can't get Aetherflows outside of combat.
The amount of shield that would still be around from starting with a critlo would be less than what you would get from a non-crit cast when the boss starts casting their first TB or raidwide. Only the off tank would be able to keep their shield up, and only if the boss doesn't hit them in which case the off tank needs less mit anyways because they're not taking damage.


Edit:
Let me try to rephrase this argument in a different manner...
Is it really actually worth it to spend a Recitation before the pull to get a Critlo on one tank, and then possibly not have recitation for your first excog?
Personally, I don't think it is, because the Critlo doesn't shield enough that it would be a complete game changer. It's a nice bonus when you get to start with a critlo, but it ultimately only helps until the first mechanic of any given boss really.

The change I am suggesting, would just allow both SCH and SGE to always start off with the crit shield on the tanks. It IS a buff, but a very small one for SGE and a slightly bigger one for SCH because the full effect of it is that you're guaranteed to be able to Deployment a critlo. Unless there is a genuine reason to spend a Recitation on your first Adlo over Excog.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carighan

I would argue it's not a buff at all, because either way you start the fight with a crit shield ready to go.

It just differs whether you spend 0 (my solution, no shields from before fight persist into the fight), 1 (OP's solution) or 1-X GCDs getting there. You start with the crit shield regardless.

---

I wouldn’t say it’s a buff for single target damage but if both tanks get smacked either by autos early or even a shared TB (like I think of P2 because I’ve been off the savage train for a bit now) it’s a pretty big buff for SCH because you can have 2 critlo’s up without spending recitation

Like using P2 again both the initial raidwide and shared TB come up in the first 30 seconds, you can shield both tanks and critdom the raidwide, or spread one shield for the first radwide then critdom the second with minimal resource use from anyone else

It’s a narrow niche but considering that it also massively buffs both in casual content and it’s not like SCH needs help I think it’s a buff that doesn’t need to happen

Especially since ideally we’d like them to stop with the same generic raidwide/TB opener

I think you misunderstood. We already pre-shield like that. Like right now it's just fishing for the crit on the pre-pull shield. But even now we all start with a crit-shield on the tanks. That part would not change. I think that was OP's point, anyways. Factually nothing changes, it just removes the need to spam-cast before a pull until a crit happens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carighan

I think you misunderstood. We already pre-shield like that. Like right now it's just fishing for the crit on the pre-pull shield. But even now we all start with a crit-shield on the tanks. That part would not change. I think that was OP's point, anyways. Factually nothing changes, it just removes the need to spam-cast before a pull until a crit happens.

---

Pretty much, the only real change would be that because you don't need to fish for those crits, you could also apply a second crit shield on the off tank as well. Which you current could do theoretically with recitation on SCH, but that CD is probably better spent on Excog than a pre-pull off tank shield.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carighan

I think you misunderstood. We already pre-shield like that. Like right now it's just fishing for the crit on the pre-pull shield. But even now we all start with a crit-shield on the tanks. That part would not change. I think that was OP's point, anyways. Factually nothing changes, it just removes the need to spam-cast before a pull until a crit happens.

---

But in general you don’t aim to spam both tanks because you can easily waste the first tanks shield fishing for the second shield, so it gives a pretty big advantage if you want to shield both tanks because you can save recitation.

It’s only a buff in a niche range of content but I don’t think recitation needs any indirect buffs

And this is of course ignoring it’s a really big buff for dungeons and deep dungeons which I don’t think the shield healers remotely need

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

But in general you don’t aim to spam both tanks because you can easily waste the first tanks shield fishing for the second shield, so it gives a pretty big advantage if you want to shield both tanks because you can save recitation.

It’s only a buff in a niche range of content but I don’t think recitation needs any indirect buffs

And this is of course ignoring it’s a really big buff for dungeons and deep dungeons which I don’t think the shield healers remotely need

---

Is a single off tank critlo at the start of the fight worth a recitation CD? Because if not, then I fail to see how it's a massive balance breaking buff to recitation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

And this is of course ignoring it’s a really big buff for dungeons and deep dungeons which I don’t think the shield healers remotely need

---

I don't think it's a buff personally (as no shield is needed, having a better shield provides no value), but I kinda agree the buff isn't needed at all either, hence me suggesting that they ought to solve this via the opposite (cannot pre-shield to begin with, no matter if crit or not). Or alternatively, the crit-bonus is during combat only.

But in whatever way, just remove the concept of "I want to max-preshield" whole. And I'd maybe even go as far as remove "pre-buffing" entirely. That levels the playing field a lot given the current abilites and does open up a fair amount of new design possibilities that would be iffy right now due to players just wanting to pre-cast-optimize them. Hence not allowing it at all.

I recall my days when I was still pugging EX/Savage in PFs, times when I don't need a critlo, I just keep spamming those two when the MT starts counting down. If there's a crit? Cool. No crit? That's also fine, I and my tank have plenty more to cover up the deficit - we start the pull either way. It's not problematic.

At the end of the day, while the change seems pretty nitpicky in nature (or at least it is to me) and doesn't seem to be gamebreaking outside first minute, the next question becomes "Why do SCH or SGE even need this?". We want to tone down our overall HPS including healers', not adding even more. It would be funny if they start designing first tankbuster to account for the critical shield values though, lmao.

Yeah long term stuff like this needs to either full buff purge on pull, or boss mechanics ignoring effects that did not originate post-pull (this was needed in many more open-world MMOs to prevent carrying outside mechanics into dungeons or vice versa).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

It would be funny if they start designing first tankbuster to account for the critical shield values though, lmao.

---

Isn't this the reason most bosses start with a Raidwide? To blow up your pre-pull Succor, because the devs assume that you're going to use a pre-pull Succor (after all, why would you not, it's literally free)

Having a guaranteed Crit on Adlo outside of combat would mean very silly gameplay for dungeons. As if it weren't already possible to ignore the Tanks due to their own selfhealing, we'd be able to Swiftcast a Crit Adlo, plus Recitation Excog the Tank, between every single pack for a total of about 2130p of EHP (assuming a Crit is an increase of exactly +50%). It'd be 2580p but that'd require the Tank to be sub-100% to benefit from the Adlo's base healing, which is unlikely

It'd also result in knockon effects when you consider other actions in the kit. Krasis, Protraction, Fey Illumination or Physis, all increase the effectiveness of Healing Actions, and Philosophia increases Healing Magicks (and can be used outside of combat for some reason, unlike its counterpart Seraphism, or the ever-out-of-place Dissipation). I dunno about anyone else, but I don't want to see SE adding any reason for a Sage to be popping Philosophia and/or Zoe prepull without a damn good reason. Such a change as the OP suggests would be little more than a noobtrap, I expect

Maybe the easiest change is really to make Catalyze and Differential Diagnosis by in-combat-only effects?