On the subject of Melee/Tank Gap closers

With the introduction of Dawntrail, we have lost a number of good (Damage based) gap closers which the majority of players really misses, such as DRK's Plunge, GNB's Rough Divide, and DRG's Spineshatter Dive, all for the sake of reducing job busyness.

Yet, there was a far logical solution to this that can even be implemented on all damaging gap closers, which is.. (Ability become unavailable the target is close or within "X" range), making them only available if the target is far, and at the same time achieve their goal of reducing Job busyness during burst.

Would love to read your feedback? Do you have other suggestions? Or are you satisfied with what we have?

Update based on feedback as of 14/02/2025:

Appreciate everyones feedback, yeah its clear now that my suggestion will create alot of complexity that i did not account for.

A safer solution is the one suggested by many, removing the damage from the gap closers.

if (animation fidelity) is a concern, then they can change Plunge/Rough Divide animation a little by making it hit with the flat side of the blade, and if needed, add a status effect instead of damage (Stun, Paralysis or Pacification)

i would take op's "only available to close the gap" gap closer.
i would take damageless gap closer, and i would still probably use it all the time at melee range because of undiagnosed ADHD.
damage on gap closer isn't must for me. i think it was good choice to take damage out of stuns/silences.

Spineshatter Dive was an attack that closed a gap. Just like how Dragonfire Dive is an AOE attack that can close a gap.

Spineshatter Dive got replaced with a dumb little slide across the ground because someone on the job design team thought somebody said worm instead of wyrm.

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Originally Posted by ThorinG

With the introduction of Dawntrail, we have lost a number of good (Damage based) gap closers which the majority of players really misses, such as DRK's Plunge, GNB's Rough Divide, and DRG's Spineshatter Dive, all for the sake of reducing job busyness.

Yet, there was a far logical solution to this that can even be implemented on all damaging gap closers, which is.. (Ability become unavailable the target is close or within "X" range), making them only available if the target is far, and at the same time achieve their goal of reducing Job busyness during burst.

Would love to read your feedback? Do you have other suggestions? Or are you satisfied with what we have?

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Swing and a miss there, unfortunately. All that would achieve is a weird rotation where the tank, or melee runs out between GCD's just far enough to use the gap closer to get back in for more damage. As long as damage is on a gap closer, it will be used primarily for damage. Removing the damage was the best decision they could make and I hope they do it with WAR and PLD too, and just put the damage elsewhere. I get immensely frustrated when a tank of mine is trying to greed something they have no need to on WAR or PLD and the excuse is "I didn't have my gap closer, I just used it for my burst." Sorry, but using your gap closer for burst when you need it coming up, and you're fully aware of that, is a skill issue. Good tanks save them when they know the fight but it shouldn't be an issue in the first place and I'm annoyed that it is.

So, my suggestion is to take the damage off the remaining gap-closers, which I hope happens in 8.0.

I cannot see this as logical at all. If you set the required distance of the gap closer being available too small then it becomes meaningless since you can run back between GCDs to use it. Set the required distance of the gap closer being available too big and it becomes too inconvenient to use because you can't use it at a distance shorter than the required distance. I doubt there's a sweet spot for the required distance.

The real question, OP: What is the legitimate gameplay reason where gap closers need to do damage? Emnity? They could always slap an 'increases emnity' on tanks' gap closers there... Their purpose is to close a gap, not damage the enemy.

Yeah, I disagree. No damage on them means they're utility skills and will onky be used as needed, and no matter what is done, bleeding edge players are going to feel the need to weave it in because any damage increase is worth it, no matter how awkward. And it's entirely possible that teeny tiny but of damage could be a world first difference, so that ugly rotation would become the standard.

Naturally, having damage taken away is going to feel bad even if it's a healthier design choice. I think it should remain as is.

So we would have to run away a few yalms from the boss to get our gap closers into burst? That would make it busier than before tbh.
I would rather remove the potency from all gap closers so that they only have 1 purpose: closing the gap between you and the boss.
That way people won't even try to push them into bursts anymore.

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Originally Posted by ThorinG

With the introduction of Dawntrail, we have lost a number of good (Damage based) gap closers which the majority of players really misses, such as DRK's Plunge, GNB's Rough Divide, and DRG's Spineshatter Dive, all for the sake of reducing job busyness.

Yet, there was a far logical solution to this that can even be implemented on all damaging gap closers, which is.. (Ability become unavailable the target is close or within "X" range), making them only available if the target is far, and at the same time achieve their goal of reducing Job busyness during burst.

Would love to read your feedback? Do you have other suggestions? Or are you satisfied with what we have?

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This won't fix the issue because gap closers can be used for other things such as instantly cancelling knock backs. By forcing it to be used out of melee range, this functionality would become clunkier when it shouldn't be so.

Also what others have said: you'd just run out of melee range to then gap close back in for the damage.

Having gap closers that don't deal damage or that deal damage and let you think about whether to use them in buffs or not are both fine options. I will agree that losing proper jumps on DRG was not so fine though.

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

The real question, OP: What is the legitimate gameplay reason where gap closers need to do damage? Emnity? They could always slap an 'increases emnity' on tanks' gap closers there... Their purpose is to close a gap, not damage the enemy.

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Non-damaging tank gap closers did have enmity added to them sometime after they were changed because lacking any kind of enmity made them REALLY obnoxious to use at times.

Part of the irritation remains that Paladin and Warrior gap closers still do damage. I don't miss the damage, personally, I miss the animation.

My opinion is they should not deal damage at all. If they deal damage only at range we might be motivated to intentionally create a gap where possible for a moment, depending on damage vs autos.

The issue is really the animation change. I understand the reasons for the animation change, because it helps explain why you aren't dealing damage if the animation does not look like you are. From a technical standpoint, the fast animation allows them to literally make you leap faster by reducing the animation delay. All of which is unnecessary, in my experience - things like Spineshatter and Plunge were completely fine as they were and only needed damage removing.

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Originally Posted by Astronis

Non-damaging tank gap closers did have enmity added to them sometime after they were changed because lacking any kind of enmity made them REALLY obnoxious to use at times.

Part of the irritation remains that Paladin and Warrior gap closers still do damage. I don't miss the damage, personally, I miss the animation.

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They said back when it was announced that they're getting rid of Intervene and Onslaught too. GNB and DRK were the first casualties because they had the busier burst phases, but PLD and WAR will likely get their own lame glides/teleports by 8.0.

The slide is a mistake, it feels weak and boring.

The real solution is to add a proper cost to the gap closer so it is not something you just add in your burst phase, but use to close gaps. Like the old rage-costing Onslaught for WAR.
Keep the damage, keep the cool animations - and then put the skills on the GCD.

Or just rebalance the jobs to remove DPS entirely from gap-closers.

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Originally Posted by ThorinG

With the introduction of Dawntrail, we have lost a number of good (Damage based) gap closers which the majority of players really misses, such as DRK's Plunge, GNB's Rough Divide, and DRG's Spineshatter Dive, all for the sake of reducing job busyness.

Yet, there was a far logical solution to this that can even be implemented on all damaging gap closers, which is.. (Ability become unavailable the target is close or within "X" range), making them only available if the target is far, and at the same time achieve their goal of reducing Job busyness during burst.

Would love to read your feedback? Do you have other suggestions? Or are you satisfied with what we have?

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Appreciate everyones feedback, yeah its clear now that my suggestion will create alot of complexity that i did not account for.

A safer solution is the one suggested by many, removing the damage from the gap closers.

if (animation fidelity) is a concern, then they can change Plunge/Rough Divide animation a little by making it hit with the flat side of the blade, and if needed, add a status effect instead of damage (Stun, Paralysis or Pacification)

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Originally Posted by ThorinG

if (animation fidelity) is a concern, then they can change Plunge/Rough Divide animation a little by making it hit with the flat side of the blade, and if needed, add a status effect instead of damage (Stun, Paralysis or Pacification)

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THAT would be fun.

The animations are fine imo. People saying they feel weak are not thinking clearly, like are the no damage utility buttons meant to feel like they hurt? No.

If those animations such as plunge and rough divide are missed then they can be repurposed with future skills. Plunge animation was cool and a longer range GCD you can stock like RPR's harvest moon would be cool if it was damage positive. Gap closing GCD's like that and the one WAR has are fine, just regular potency gap closer but a GCD as somebody suggested...grats, you found the worst of both worlds. Stop having opinions please.

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Originally Posted by Carstien

The animations are fine imo. People saying they feel weak are not thinking clearly, like are the no damage utility buttons meant to feel like they hurt? No.

If those animations such as plunge and rough divide are missed then they can be repurposed with future skills. Plunge animation was cool and a longer range GCD you can stock like RPR's harvest moon would be cool if it was damage positive. Gap closing GCD's like that and the one WAR has are fine, just regular potency gap closer but a GCD as somebody suggested...grats, you found the worst of both worlds. Stop having opinions please.

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Reprisal did zero damage even when it was a single-target DRK skill, and the animation has always consisted of your character grabbing their weapon with both hands, shoving it into the target (now the air near the target), and sweeping it out. There's more weight behind it than most of the modern nukes.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Reprisal did zero damage even when it was a single-target DRK skill, and the animation has always consisted of your character grabbing their weapon with both hands, shoving it into the target (now the air near the target), and sweeping it out. There's more weight behind it than most of the modern nukes.

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And? Reprisal may not be doing damage but it's crippling the target, making them unable to do damage. It has an effect, a powerful one. It also did damage so your information is a little wrong there. 210 potency attack on release. I remember old reprisal, and power slash, the best animation DRK had.

I still stand by my point. The animation of a gap closer doesn't need to feel powerful, it's just a gap closer. If there are exceptions, great, I don't really care but hearing "it looks too weak" feels whiny to me. It gets you from A to B, that's all it needs.

"which the majority of players really misses"
got any statistics to back that up?

Here's the actual truth

Some Gap closers should deal damage, having a damage gap closer adds a small amount of optimisation and skill expression and fight knowledge. Also jobs like PLD/WAR need stuff to weave compared to gnb/drk which are busy
Some Gap closers Shouldn't deal damage, I'd prefer gap closers like these also have ally application where you can go to a ally
Some Gap closers shouldn't be target based, aka white mage dancer picto closers.

Why should gap closers be different? because it gives some sense of uniqueness of course I dislike the blanket statement that gap closers should be designed one way or another.

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Originally Posted by TKMXIV

Spineshatter Dive got replaced with a dumb little slide across the ground because someone on the job design team thought somebody said worm instead of wyrm.

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I hate how much goddamn sense this makes.

Anyway, I'm fine with no damage on gap closers, since it rarely made any difference anyway and there's better ways to do damage. I just bloody hate how we lost the better looking animations.

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Originally Posted by ThorinG

if (animation fidelity) is a concern, then they can change Plunge/Rough Divide animation a little by making it hit with the flat side of the blade, and if needed, add a status effect instead of damage (Stun, Paralysis or Pacification)

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THIS.

If the excuse was going to be "well, it would look dumb if you were Plunging your sword into someone and didn't do damage" I would instead argue that maybe the gap closer could just give resources/inflict status effects/reduce defensive cooldowns instead with zero damage.

I would not shed any tears if Shield Bash got merged into Intervene and stole the Stun like it already does in PVP (just remove the damage). Give me some Oath Gauge while they're at it.

DRK still has Plunge in PVP too, where I'm certain they can retool "reduces target's HP recovered by healing actions by 15% and if that target should be KO'd in battle before Sole Survivor expires, your HP and MP will be restored by 15%, and the recast time of Plunge will be reset" into something interesting that functions against mobs instead of other players even if its just a basic bitch MP restore skill or procs The Blackest Night's effect on demand/early to ensure Dark Arts. Just, anything on gap closers but direct damage.

The main difference is just button density. If you want X apm regardless of situation, damaging gap-closers is better. Any time they'd be useful for gap-closing, they're going to be held for gap-closing anyways, because even a quarter of a GCD so overwhelms the bonus of dropping them under raid buffs. (At most, you'd just make Rough Divide and Intervene always benefit from No Mercy and Fight or Flight, respectively, so they needn't be held for those far larger modifiers.)

If you never want to ever have to think about a mechanic before it's knocked you back or provided something at distance to gap-close to, though, then you could happily devote to that purpose an extra button that'd otherwise be absolutely useless. Same goes for silences and stuns in any content for which the silence or stun would actually be worth much (i.e., if you just un-neuter mobs' casts and wound-up special attacks).

I would honestly prefer the gap closers had no damage. I play PLD and as it stands I need to use gap closers during my burst in raid content, which means I can rarely use them for utility otherwise I lose damage. Is that homogenizing? Probably, but not everything has to be unique or different. Gaps closers should be for closing gaps.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The main difference is just button density. If you want X apm regardless of situation, damaging gap-closers is better. Any time they'd be useful for gap-closing, they're going to be held for gap-closing anyways, because even a quarter of a GCD so overwhelms the bonus of dropping them under raid buffs. (At most, you'd just make Rough Divide and Intervene always benefit from No Mercy and Fight or Flight, respectively, so they needn't be held for those far larger modifiers.)[…]

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*raises hand* Question! I’m not a math whizz so pardon the math mistakes: Mathematically speaking, how much is the gain to perform these ‘dump gapclosers in raidbuff windows’ these days? Last time I look up any magic numbers was in EW (Idk DT numbers), and I vaguely recall the damage spike occurring in 2m burst windows are anywhere around 30% to 45% from normal values. Does this means—taking a WAR as an example case—it essentially only translates to 90p to 135p’ish gains every two minutes?

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Originally Posted by JadeCurtiss

I would honestly prefer the gap closers had no damage. I play PLD and as it stands I need to use gap closers during my burst in raid content, which means I can rarely use them for utility otherwise I lose damage. Is that homogenizing? Probably, but not everything has to be unique or different. Gaps closers should be for closing gaps.

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I agree with you, they would be better doing no damage and moving the damage to the other ogcd's imo, but...you do know you can save them instead of blowing them in your burst, right? If you have movement coming up, you will get more damage holding it and not missing half a GCD than you would throwing the weak gap closer into buffs. You do have that option.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

*raises hand* Question! I’m not a math whizz so pardon the math mistakes: Mathematically speaking, how much is the gain to perform these ‘dump gapclosers in raidbuff windows’ these days? Last time I look up any magic numbers was in EW (Idk DT numbers), and I vaguely recall the damage spike occurring in 2m burst windows are anywhere around 30% to 45% from normal values. Does this means—taking a WAR as an example case—it essentially only translates to 90p to 135p’ish gains every two minutes?

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From the raid buffs themselves, you have at most (short of ST buffs, since those will never be on a tank anyways) 5% from BV, 5% from Mug, ~5% from BL, and 5% from BH, 6% from Divination, and 5% from Chain Stratagem. That's 28.8% overall. Which, on a 200p skill like Onslaught, is... 43 potency. It costs only 43 potency to never lose access to a gap-closer.

Tanks push 400+ effective potency per GCD when accounting for gauge and its tack on effects, so the chances of raid buffs providing more benefit than the actual gap-closing is... extremely slim on any gap worth calling a gap. Having multiple charges is already plenty to ensure that even a damaging gap-closer can remain primarily interested in closing-gaps without requiring too much thought (just not necessarily none).