Add Stone, Sky, Sea Completion as Savage Unlock Requirement

Please make Stone, Sky, Sea mandatory to unlock Savage tier.

I'm tired of having players who don't do decent damage joining my parties and wiping us because of it AND the multiple deaths that may occur during a run. Item level is a poor way of ensuring "quality".

I'm not asking to tune anything down just add an additional unlock requirement that is a mild inconvenience.

For example, if I want to do M11S then I have to beat the M11S SSS training dummy. This would reduce player frustrations.

Your players don't know how to do their rotations or utilize pot windows. This 2min meta could be furthered simplified and it won't change a thing. Please make SSS mandatory so they are at least aware that DPS checks exist and how to clear them. We have to play perfectly because players don't know how to play despite being given every tool to clear these fights.

I make mistakes and I know others will make them too but you have to literally play with 0 deaths and damage downs to make up for the fact people aren't doing decent damage.

I don't want to passport check people, I never have, and its getting to the point where it feels like I'm gonna have to start doing that.

It would be a start, for sure. I'd always set this when forming parties if so.

Don't get me wrong, I know it is easy to beat these dummies. I can typically defeat the last floor dummy in pentamelded crafted gear with food, pots and Ornate. So obviously, it should be more than defeatable later in the tier with all that tomestone gear, drops from prior floors. Thus, if someone is somehow unable to so much as defeat a dummy that just sits there then it at least filters out people that can't even stand still and do their rotation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It would be a start, for sure. I'd always set this when forming parties if so.

Don't get me wrong, I know it is easy to beat these dummies. I can typically defeat the last floor dummy in pentamelded crafted gear with food, pots and Ornate. So obviously, it should be more than defeatable later in the tier with all that tomestone gear, drops from prior floors. Thus, if someone is somehow unable to so much as defeat a dummy that just sits there then it at least filters out people that can't even stand still and do their rotation.

---

It wouldn't stop people from making mistakes and that's fine. My main focus is to filter out the people with misaligned raid buffs or trolling their pot windows. Hell, give people various dummy pots during SSS so they can try them out and see the difference.
Players already have the item level to clear these fights but they're just not clearing unless the whole group is compensating with gear.

be gone! spirit of evil! how dare you talk about dps like this is wow. this is the game for cuddles and love! no one ever did too little dmg in ff14!


no seriously: i like your idea! seems to be really necessary to show people they do too little dmg.

This sounds like something out of a job application more than a video game. I understand the frustration behind it, but having to do all kinds of busy work to join a party bothers me more. Making parties from people on friend lists that have been vetted through previous raids is enough for me.

honestly good idea, its not even that much efford but would really show some people in a decent way that they dont understand how their job works and stuff

That would be a start. It also means that they need to tune the dps checks individually per jobs to account the rDPS-heavy jobs not having a party to take advantage of their contribution. Surely that wouldn't be a complex thing to tweak for them?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZUZ

It wouldn't stop people from making mistakes and that's fine. My main focus is to filter out the people with misaligned raid buffs or trolling their pot windows. Hell, give people various dummy pots during SSS so they can try them out and see the difference.

---

SSS does nothing for raid buff alignment, nor will any other solo content of note. Nor for openers, for openers are effectively meaningless in a vacuum, as their entire reason to exist as such is to establish the initial alignment with other players' rotations.

This is firmly on SE for tripling down on the 2 minute meta format, because it makes synchronizing buffs and debuffs priority number one (mind you this had been a problem before job revamps, in Stormblood the meta for 8p runs literally used 3 of the 4 lowest personal DPS red jobs in the game because buff/debuff synergy boosted everyone else's damage by more than enough to make up for that fact) and that's virtually impossible to teach outside the actual raiding setting.

I'd also be worried that this idea would easily "fall through cracks" and damage the casual player tradition of unsyncing old content (imagine having to prove synced dps check requirements to unsync old raids ...)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PyurBlue

This sounds like something out of a job application more than a video game. I understand the frustration behind it, but having to do all kinds of busy work to join a party bothers me more. Making parties from people on friend lists that have been vetted through previous raids is enough for me.

---

This. And how to make exceptions for premades, otherwise there will be a hue and cry from friendly groups. Do we want to finally hammer in the final nail and effectively make it official that anything other than story modes is a cold professional pursuit and "fun need not apply?"

It's hard to say if this one's on SE though. The big issue here is that in olden times the static (in the form of guild) group was the understood norm, pickup groups were for alts and the desperate. At some point the PUG became the norm but the content didn't really evolve with this change.

Then again what are the other options?

* Downtune non-Ultimate content to reflect the fact that ad hoc grouping has become the norm?
* Thump people's heads till they get back to "if you want a reliable group, get a guild/static" instead of expecting PF to be some sort of super reliable wonderland?
* Thump NA players' heads till they understand PUGs work best with the Japanese style approach in which strategies are built for maximum reliability among unfamiliar players with little communication rather than the typical Western strats that tend to be better left to statics?

I think its a fantastic idea. Why would it make savage any less fun? Its like 2m per fight on a dummy. If you are a good player, it would be easy, move on with your day. But if you are bad at damage on a dummy where youre standing still the whole time? You will be a liability in any group. Static or PF. You will be griefing. I have a feeling it would weed out some bad eggs. Granted not all of them because some people can beat the standing still no mech dummy, but will still be horrible at actual mechs. With the exception of m11s, most of the walls in PF aren't even damage related. Its people dying to mechs over and over. And even then, in m11s you CAN clear with deaths. If everyone hits buttons good.

@Amarande

SE and the general playerbase can do what it wants. This is a suggestion based on my pf experience in dawntrail that would at least start many players journey on self improvement. It's not perfect, of course not, there's a ton of things they could do which would take them forever to implement if ever. The focus here is starting somewhere and starting here.

The content has been clearable in PUGs since at least Endwalker and doesn't need to be downtuned.

I don't blame the players. This is on SE for not adapting quickly enough to how people play their game. It took them how long to implement the strategy board and people use it to post memes? Not even a search, vote, or clear rate feature?

This suggestion is just to reduce some of the frustration I've felt. SE can do what it wants. I know what I'm gonna do to avoid frustration.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amarande

SSS does nothing for raid buff alignment, nor will any other solo content of note. Nor for openers, for openers are effectively meaningless in a vacuum, as their entire reason to exist as such is to establish the initial alignment with other players' rotations.

---

You don’t need to align buffs to clear the fight. The problem comes from players who don’t press their buttons, who are literally afk half of the fight. But if it makes it any better, since the dummy fight is 3 minutes, SE can just make it give you a buff at 2 min.

It's at least a basic DPS rotation but a more advanced hall of the novice would be cool,

It would be pointless because part of the dps challenge is to maintain GCD activity, while maintaing uptime and dealing with mechanics.
While SSS only tests you can kill a static target with zero interuption.
Sure there will be many who can and do, but all you would get is the same issue in PF.
Personally this is why I run with a static as its more consistent.
Further gatekeeping will not solve PF's issue but rather exasperate it.
The bottom line is PF's expectation is out of sync with reality, doing this would only highten that expectation and increace the irritation.
If the randomnes of PF Savage raiding is an issue then the soltuion is to get a static of likeminded people instead. What this tries to do is counter the nature of pf by adding pointless friction.
The other solution is for the devs to abandon the 2minute meta and properly balance fights around melee uprtime and Casters needing to stand and cast. (Really no idea where the balance for physical ranged is though)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anvaire

It would be pointless because part of the dps challenge is to maintain GCD activity, while maintaing uptime and dealing with mechanics.
While SSS only tests you can kill a static target with zero interuption.
Sure there will be many who can and do, but all you would get is the same issue in PF.

---

Right, but it will filter out the people who can't even do their rotation while standing still, or who can't gear properly.

I will be completely honest, I did not know this function existed until this post, I knew of SSS, but I did not realize it had dummies to testing a predicted DPS check for Savage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It would be a start, for sure. I'd always set this when forming parties if so.

Don't get me wrong, I know it is easy to beat these dummies. I can typically defeat the last floor dummy in pentamelded crafted gear with food, pots and Ornate. So obviously, it should be more than defeatable later in the tier with all that tomestone gear, drops from prior floors. Thus, if someone is somehow unable to so much as defeat a dummy that just sits there then it at least filters out people that can't even stand still and do their rotation.

---

I mean, you are supposed to, since the tiers are supposed to be cleared in crafted gear generally.

Quote:

---

I understand the frustration behind it, but having to do all kinds of busy work to join a party bothers me more.

---

You make it sound like it's a 10 steps 2 weeks worth of grind/prep when in fact it's nothing like that. It bothers me more that people are okay with wasting 7 other ppls time than actually unlocking 1 quest and spending 3 minutes in it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

I will be completely honest, I did not know this function existed until this post, I knew of SSS, but I did not realize it had dummies to testing a predicted DPS check for Savage.

---

It doesn't even have a obvious symbol on the mini-map or above the NPC like how <TOMESTONE VENDOR> do. I do not blame people for not knowing about it or revisiting it after unlock. Again, zero effort on SE's part to encourage it. Imagine, it giving a one-time capped/uncap tome reward upon completion.

Savage in itself is already gatekeeping people because of how unapproachable it is to the general playerbase. If another layer of obstacle is added, it would significantly reduce even the number of people who want to attempt Savage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeresaFortell

Savage in itself is already gatekeeping people because of how unapproachable it is to the general playerbase. If another layer of obstacle is added, it would significantly reduce even the number of people who want to attempt Savage.

---

is the gatekeeping in a room with us right now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by theunhappypotato

is the gatekeeping in a room with us right now?

---

Why do you think fflogs and tomestones exist?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeresaFortell

Why do you think fflogs and tomestones exist?

---

mainly for self improvement or well to see who is sandbagging your group

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeresaFortell

Savage in itself is already gatekeeping people because of how unapproachable it is to the general playerbase. If another layer of obstacle is added, it would significantly reduce even the number of people who want to attempt Savage.

---

I don't think a 3-minute training dummy requirement makes Savage unapproachable. It's a reasonable baseline skill check for the content tier. To encourage engagement, they could even add a one-time tome reward for clearing each SSS dummy.

Improving SSS would help more players feel prepared for Savage. Imagine getting a title for clearing one like some variation of [Battle-Ready]. Imagine if each one was 3 mins of a the real thing except tuned to a single player so people can actually practice in a moving environment.

Again, my original suggestion would be a starting point. There are countless ways to make it feel less like an obstacle and make it so Savage is actually accessible instead of having people just jump straight into the fire for each fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anvaire

The bottom line is PF's expectation is out of sync with reality, doing this would only highten that expectation and increace the irritation.

---

Damn right it does.

I cannot talk about other people's experiences, but let me tell you mine.

M10s so far.

First party -> down to 59%
Second party -> 69% despite the requirements being clear.
Third -> 53% Basically hard stuck there cause the difference between first, and this is not that much.
4-th -> 43% I guess, finally making some progress, and second and third parties were trap parties.
5-th - 23% hell ye.. let's go.. time to clean and clear
6th- Nope.. back to 51%
7-th+ 8-th-> 17%
9th -> 29%

so only 1st, 4th, and 5th were actual parties, and 60% of the parties were trap parties. Mind you, many of these ppl were also those who had already cleared, and they were supposed to know the fight too. Is my expectation out of synch? With what exactly?

I don't see how in a difficulty where numbers are almost everything, as to why -- or how -- expecting people to have met that fundamental 'minimum' requirement on a dummy is gatekeeping.

I get the need to be righteous, but this ain't a good campaign for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kohashi

You make it sound like it's a 10 steps 2 weeks worth of grind/prep when in fact it's nothing like that. It bothers me more that people are okay with wasting 7 other ppls time than actually unlocking 1 quest and spending 3 minutes in it.

---

It's not a huge obstacle, no. Though I would still call it unnecessary. You can already control who gets the 7 other slots in your party and requiring SSS wouldn't mean that DPS checks are cleared because striking dummy uptime and savage uptime are completely different things.

The need to eliminate even the smallest possibility of friction from the game also concerns me because its likely contributing to design choices like the 2 minute window. I don't want the game to center around logging in, doing stuff as fast as possible, and then logging off. I'm sure that some may look at this post and see it as hyperbole in this situation but if raiding is so unbearable that people can't tolerate any setbacks then maybe the problem is with the content itself. Either because it's trying to cater to too many people at once (people wanting gear vs people wanting to test themselves for example) or because it's not really enjoyable in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I don't see how in a difficulty where numbers are almost everything, as to why -- or how -- expecting people to have met that fundamental 'minimum' requirement on a dummy is gatekeeping.

I get the need to be righteous, but this ain't a good campaign for it.

---

I mean, it is gatekeeping. But it can also be a preparation tool. I'm trying hard to imagine how a new player might prepare for the new savage tier and the only progression path I really see is getting over-geared, watching a guide online, and slamming their heads against the current EX until they clear it. When I first started I joined a static for ARR/HW raids and even then I felt unprepared for what current savage is like.

Adding adequate and optional preparation tools like actual 3 min version of bosses as solo instance for practice would probably be out of SE's budget. My original suggestion just keeps in mind how limited the budget is.

They already have the SSS, lets use them, give people one-time completion rewards, and I'd at least have more faith in PF.

I think it should be expected to face the unknown when going with PF, having extra locks to savage seems performative. If you are so tired of PF, try form a static that matches your need.

We don't need additional requirements for this, doing damage in the actual fight is also way different than just throwing your rotation on the dummy.

There's always going to be trolls and trap parties, that is just how PF is and always will be, with or without a seastone lock. If you are worried about damage lock yourself with higher iLvl, there is already tools in the PF there for you to use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikeCake

I think it should be expected to face the unknown when going with PF, having extra locks to savage seems performative. If you are so tired of PF, try form a static that matches your need.

We don't need additional requirements for this, doing damage in the actual fight is also way different than just throwing your rotation on the dummy.

There's always going to be trolls and trap parties, that is just how PF is and always will be, with or without a seastone lock. If you are worried about damage lock yourself with higher iLvl, there is already tools in the PF there for you to use.

---

I've always been aware of how unknown PF is going to be. I've cleared Light-Heavyweight week 1 purely though PF this expansion. iLvl lock just makes up for inadequacy and doesn't filter performance.

Yes, a static would be best. I just think having to resort to it is lame.

~This is great idea. It would stop those who are incapable of doing their basic rotation get carried through the first 2 easy fights and then grief the real players in M11

I often forget that SSS exists so putting more emphasis on it would be nice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZUZ

I mean, it is gatekeeping. But it can also be a preparation tool. I'm trying hard to imagine how a new player might prepare for the new savage tier and the only progression path I really see is getting over-geared, watching a guide online, and slamming their heads against the current EX until they clear it. When I first started I joined a static for ARR/HW raids and even then I felt unprepared for what current savage is like.

Adding adequate and optional preparation tools like actual 3 min version of bosses as solo instance for practice would probably be out of SE's budget. My original suggestion just keeps in mind how limited the budget is.

They already have the SSS, lets use them, give people one-time completion rewards, and I'd at least have more faith in PF.

---

I disagree, I don't think it is gatekeeping, simply because the encounter still requires as a collective that you meet certain checks.. It would be gatekeeping if it become less about whether you as an individual are ready (whether by skill or over-gearing), and more about just exclusivity inflation for the sake of it (e.g., asking players to meet well beyond the threshold of what the SSS dummy would require.. e.g., if they tried to create a scoring system out of it.

But I otherwise do agree with you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PyurBlue

It's not a huge obstacle, no. Though I would still call it unnecessary. You can already control who gets the 7 other slots in your party and requiring SSS wouldn't mean that DPS checks are cleared because striking dummy uptime and savage uptime are completely different things.

The need to eliminate even the smallest possibility of friction from the game also concerns me because its likely contributing to design choices like the 2 minute window. I don't want the game to center around logging in, doing stuff as fast as possible, and then logging off. I'm sure that some may look at this post and see it as hyperbole in this situation but if raiding is so unbearable that people can't tolerate any setbacks then maybe the problem is with the content itself. Either because it's trying to cater to too many people at once (people wanting gear vs people wanting to test themselves for example) or because it's not really enjoyable in the first place.

---

Sure but it would also do an initial filter. It will not be perfect, but it will still be better than what we have now.

And it's not ANY setback, but most PFs are trap parties. It's unrealistic to ask for perfection, but sitting in PF and being filled with ppl that can't do any sort of rotation, and party mitigation is absolutely mind-blowing. I can tell that you have NEVER even attempted to do any savage, let alone in PF because you would not be saying any of this stuff if you actually did.

Regardless of whether it is "gatekeeping" or not, I still feel it's a reasonable ask, someone who is unable to kill a stationary dummy in a safe, non-stimulating space genuinely has no business in a Savage fight, and it would ensure people are at least capable of performing their basic rotation, which is so much more than PF is usually capable of.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kohashi

Sure but it would also do an initial filter. It will not be perfect, but it will still be better than what we have now.

And it's not ANY setback, but most PFs are trap parties. It's unrealistic to ask for perfection, but sitting in PF and being filled with ppl that can't do any sort of rotation, and party mitigation is absolutely mind-blowing. I can tell that you have NEVER even attempted to do any savage, let alone in PF because you would not be saying any of this stuff if you actually did.

---

You can't assume that your views are universal. Yes I do PF and have PF'd multiple past savage tiers and I don't feel a need, or even a desire, for a SSS requirement. My biggest gripe with PF currently is One Player per Job because it's everywhere and I just want to play whatever job I feel like using that day. Sometimes I get a poor party, it's not the end of the world. Maybe something changed with DT savage, which I have not done, but most PF's being trap parties is not even close to my experience.

I'm not sure a training dummy is enough when most can beat it by just mashing buttons, you'd need something that actually prepares/trains people for the actual mechanics and make them gold star that.

I would also say the unlock requirement should only bar people from joining synced party-finder/duty-finder for current Savages, since there's no reason to block off old Savages for unsync farming.