New Dungeon is a return to bad habits

We're back to endwalker difficulty content. Literally the one good thing about DT gameplay was the enhanced pace/mechanics.

I don't know what they are thinking. It's very difficult to not be disappointed all the time now.

The only thing this dungeon did differently is not spam a million aoes every 2 seconds why are you acting like the dungeons this expansion have been even remotely difficult?

As said in another thread - I enjoyed it. Played it with Trust (as a side-note, Sphene was a great healer) the first time I played it and found the balance about right personally.

Unpopular an opinion as this may be, I'm going to express it anyway: I'm hoping they continue to balance fights in this manner; I don't see why every boss has to be a DDR-attack fest - let those of us who prefer some balance have some fun.
I know I did.

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Originally Posted by Ajisaii

The only thing this dungeon did differently is not spam a million aoes every 2 seconds why are you acting like the dungeons this expansion have been even remotely difficult?

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Noone said difficult. The difference is I didn't feel like I could basically AFK and watch youtube and still beat it. Where as with this new one it sure feels that way for the most part. And you are right on the money, that is what this dungeon did differently, it had barely any mechanics. Why are you defending barren gameplay? Do you just like doing nothing? Don't get me wrong, a lot of people do... there's a reason the game gets more buttons removed every day.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Unpopular an opinion as this may be, I'm going to express it anyway: I'm hoping they continue to balance fights in this manner; I don't see why every boss has to be a DDR-attack fest - let those of us who prefer some balance have some fun.
I know I did.

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It's okay to feel this way, and it is unpopular, it's one of the reasons the population in the game is tanking. People get bored. I am on the opposite side though, I like engaging gameplay, no challenge isn't fun. Stormblood did the game more or less correctly, a good mix of complexity and simplicity and that is why a lot of people got into the game and had a lot of fun in shadow bringers, however, shadow bringers started making the game too easy and every expansion has done the same, and people can't take it anymore and are leaving.

I like the first boss, since it harshly punishes you to being at the wrong place at the wrong time where even a healer cannot save you.

felt like every other dungeon to me. not easier or harder

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Originally Posted by Ath192

And you are right on the money, that is what this dungeon did differently, it had barely any mechanics. Why are you defending barren gameplay? Do you just like doing nothing? Don't get me wrong, a lot of people do... there's a reason the game gets more buttons removed every day.

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That's not what I said at all, amazing strawman. DDRslop isn't engaging after 2 years of the exact same thing it's the most boring shit ever because you aren't actually in danger since jobs are on autopilot and you can't actually mess up unless your eyes are closed or you're distracted from boredom. I've seen more deaths from this dungeon than all of the previous dungeons combined minus Yuweyawata since they actually decided to put in mechanics you have to pay attention to (minus that first boss is was laughably easy) other than the floor is orange walk out of the orange.

But please ignore everything I said and go back to lala land so you can just make up a bunch of words I never said so you can have a chance at refuting it like every other burger.

If I have to choose between this and Luigi's Mansion horrible bosses, I'll choose this I guess.

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Originally Posted by Valence

If I have to choose between this and Luigi's Mansion horrible bosses, I'll choose this I guess.

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If you’re talking about the circus with the head guy … say what you will but it had personality. I prefer an annoying dungeon over a forgettable one truly.

My only issue was the first boss really. The second and third still had some cute mechanics, but the first one definitely felt like they phoned it in.

I wouldn't say things are at Endwalker levels... Endwalker kind of takes the ultimate price for a joke of dungeon difficulty with Alzadaal's Legacy, where one of the bosses is a literal punching bag.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

As said in another thread - I enjoyed it. Played it with Trust (as a side-note, Sphene was a great healer) the first time I played it and found the balance about right personally.

Unpopular an opinion as this may be, I'm going to express it anyway: I'm hoping they continue to balance fights in this manner; I don't see why every boss has to be a DDR-attack fest - let those of us who prefer some balance have some fun.
I know I did.

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I prefer to go with the trusts and I enjoyed it and I found it to be fun. I am tired of dancing round in the orange and it is something I have always hated that they added. I love a slower paced battle system this dungeon did not feel any different to be honest and I liked it. Sphene was good in there :)

its was okay, nothing good or bad just normal braindead ff14 dungeon

I was real disappointed tbh, i'd rather they stop making dungeons if they're just gonna be free win hallways with nothing interesting going on. Put that dev time into real content

the devs have an impossible task right now
7.3 B2 in the Meso terminal introduced a more difficult dungeon content and there was a thread saying it was too hard.
now in 7.4 this thread says its going back to too easy. honestly this dungeon reminded me of the fell court of troia & of Pagkth'an

personally i liked both dungeons but i do tend to. its only when i grind them that the dungeon becomes to easy for me.

but i think if you ever want the devs to listen to a complaint both sides need to work out what is classed as too easy and what is classed as too hard - for the majority

Idk tbh...

Most of the dungeons in Dawntrail feel like the same difficulty that they were in past expansions, and it really only felt like there were a small number of bosses that were actually harder than usual.

People have been giving far too much credit to the difficulty levels of Dawntrail dungeons.

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Originally Posted by lievaordiea

the devs have an impossible task right now
7.3 B2 in the Meso terminal introduced a more difficult dungeon content and there was a thread saying it was too hard.
now in 7.4 this thread says its going back to too easy. honestly this dungeon reminded me of the fell court of troia & of Pagkth'an

personally i liked both dungeons but i do tend to. its only when i grind them that the dungeon becomes to easy for me.

but i think if you ever want the devs to listen to a complaint both sides need to work out what is classed as too easy and what is classed as too hard - for the majority

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It's simple, just ignore the people saying the dungeons are too hard, because they're not. Some people literally just want to mash the 1 key and kill everything while standing in every other aoe, the rest of us actually want to play the game with some level of danger.

Devs: ‘but Criterion ’

Expect much, much, much more expert roulette story dungeon slop.

The same mechanics, the same trash pulls, the same rotations (the same… nightmare ).

But it’s ok but shiny new backdrops to do the exact same thing in!!! And if you don’t like it, shut up and do criterion. /s

The dungeons are balanced for trusts and minimum item levels. Anything above that and with skilled players, yes, the dungeon will feel easy.

They have been set in a way that you can rampage through it in 15 minutes for your daily or switch to min ilevel for a challenge.

The choice is yours and in 8.0, it will get even better with quantum.

Dungeon are meant to be accessible to everyone even people with 2 brain cells, if you want harder content go play extreme/savage/ultimate

It was a snoozefest. The other dungeons weren't difficult, but at least in those I had to move semi-regularly, unlike this one where being mostly stationary was very much an option as a caster.

e/: And no, doing Extremes isn't the solution. They're still a snoozefest. And with Savage, the difficulty often is PF and not the fight. So yeah, I expect content to be less sleep-inducing.

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Originally Posted by Kelg

It's simple, just ignore the people saying the dungeons are too hard, because they're not. Some people literally just want to mash the 1 key and kill everything while standing in every other aoe, the rest of us actually want to play the game with some level of danger.

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then the player base needs to accept and agree that to make dungeons and trials and raids harder for the playerbase that you will wipe.
folks are too fast to abandon a raid where you have wiped and to not belittle folks who are slower or to just abandon them.

case in point this week alone i queued into M9 elven queen and we wiped a couple of times (towers/halfroomclears the usual when its new to players stuff). healer left and was replaced pretty fast (thankfully). we cleared insta with the new healer. new healer was prolly very confused XD it only released on 16th and there has been enforced social events players would have had to attend to stop them playing as much.

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Originally Posted by lievaordiea

then the player base needs to accept and agree that to make dungeons and trials and raids harder for the playerbase that you will wipe.
folks are too fast to abandon a raid where you have wiped and to not belittle folks who are slower or to just abandon them.

case in point this week alone i queued into M9 elven queen and we wiped a couple of times (towers/halfroomclears the usual when its new to players stuff). healer left and was replaced pretty fast (thankfully). we cleared insta with the new healer. new healer was prolly very confused XD it only released on 16th and there has been enforced social events players would have had to attend to stop them playing as much.

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Honestly I think it’s the devs themselves that need to learn to accept this, though idk about players. They seem to think that ‘player death / wiping’ should essentially be an exclusive mechanic for any ‘savage-level content’. Which, is questionable when the game offers so many forms of Raise from both healers and non-healers (and literally anyone in four-man content). Like, we’re rarely allowed to die but we have millions of accessible ways to revive the dead lol. Is it really such a big deal if people can/do die? I mean, isn’t that one of the reasons games like Elden Ring / Dark Souls became so popular? Because dying isn’t just something that can happen, it’s an expected part of the game’s learning experience lol.

I just stopped queuing as a healer into normal raids so my team's idiocy is no longer my responsibility. People are embarrassingly bad at M9.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

We're back to endwalker difficulty content. Literally the one good thing about DT gameplay was the enhanced pace/mechanics.

I don't know what they are thinking. It's very difficult to not be disappointed all the time now.

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There are mountains of threads with players noting that DT's difficulty in MSQ content was pushing them out, and even some theorize that DT's difficulty spike was a factor is the player count dropping.

The new dungeon has the creativity with mechanics DT pushed, but slightly slowed down.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

There are mountains of threads with players noting that DT's difficulty in MSQ content was pushing them out, and even some theorize that DT's difficulty spike was a factor is the player count dropping.

The new dungeon has the creativity with mechanics DT pushed, but slightly slowed down.

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I'm pretty sure the exodus happening in this game is due to neutered jobs, boring gameplay and a terrible story line.

You see, difficulty in a video game is not a cardinal sin. It's something those who enjoy it relish and those who don't put up with so long as the game is interesting and engaging. We wouldn't see difficult games enjoy the level of success they do such as Elden Ring or Silk Song. Meanwhile, visual novels who lack these things don't do as well. Take FFXVI for example. Gorgeous game, decent story, absolutely mediocre gameplay.

I say that as someone who bought a PS5 exclusively to play FFXVI on release. I wanted to see what a team unburdened by FFXIV's previous flop was capable of. Turns out, gameplay isn't their strong suit.

Heck, you can't even raid or play most of the games endgame without DC hopping to Aether in NA which is almost always closed off. That's the level of priority actually playing the MMO part of the game takes. Scrolling through endless dialogue texts and playing solo with bots (trusts) though. Now that's where all the money went. And you can really tell. That part of the game is smooth as butter.

Nothing for gamers here.

I'd wager the exodus is 90% due to the horrible story. Look at Expedition 33. Overall a mediocre game gameplay wise but it has a great story and music so it won so many rewards despite its mechanical failings as an RPG.

Honestly easier fights wouldn't bother me much if jobs weren't constantly becoming more boring and similar. Not against a change to their structure but the difficulty isn't really something I'm concerned with for story content unless it makes sense given the context (like In From the Cold, though that's a solo instance).

TBH, I've never thought of any EXDR really meant to be challenging since they're all part of the MSQ therefore, SE wants everyone, and I mean everyone, to clear it at least once to progress through it for the new patch. Also, I don't recall the last time anyone said I expect the new EXDR dungeon to be hard and unique, since I'll be running it for months and months it will became boring so fast along with my miserable glam farming for the rest of the mistwake sets.

It was easy, but I liked it. My biggest criticism is that boss 2, and boss 3 felt a bit too similar ie putting a bunch of orbs on the ground that explode.

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Originally Posted by SaberEx

Dungeon are meant to be accessible to everyone even people with 2 brain cells, if you want harder content go play extreme/savage/ultimate

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Disagree.
Maybe in level1-50 or 60 that is applicable.
These are level 100 dungeons and they are easier than most dungeons in lv.60 or 70 range, heck even 50 is they were done with correct ilvl.
At level 100 dungeons should not be designed with people that only have 2 braincells in mind.

And dungeons should not be braindead corridors.
At 100 people with 2 braincells should have been filtered out long ago, lvl 100 gameplay should not be "accessible to all" if that includes people not capeable of doing the bare minimum.

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Originally Posted by ViinaS

Disagree.
Maybe in level1-50 or 60 that is applicable.
These are level 100 dungeons and they are easier than most dungeons in lv.60 or 70 range, heck even 50 is they were done with correct ilvl.
At level 100 dungeons should not be designed with people that only have 2 braincells in mind.

And dungeons should not be braindead corridors.
At 100 people with 2 braincells should have been filtered out long ago, lvl 100 gameplay should not be "accessible to all" if that includes people not capeable of doing the bare minimum.

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This, and only this. It's a very succinct summary. The dungeon I've witnessed the most wipes in, to this day, is Stone Vigil. The highest expansion dungeon I've witnessed multiple wipes in is Shisui, not counting The Dead Ends on release because of Doom memes.

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Originally Posted by SaberEx

Dungeon are meant to be accessible to everyone even people with 2 brain cells, if you want harder content go play extreme/savage/ultimate

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I would say...

There is being accessible to everyone, and then there is... What they are doing... Which is designing around people that simply don't want to actually bother engaging in a reasonable capacity, and the sad thing about this, is that this methodology affects many facets of the game.

It's absolutely hilarious for people and the developers to use accessibility as a rationale for this, whilst subsequently continuing to push much of the game to aesthetic over accessibility, e.g., going for visual appeal at the expense of those that are, for example color blind, and in frankly very obnoxious ways.

I've been saying this for ages, Fix the gear scaling, Dungeons are generally trivialised by people having gear that's even slightly above min item level, Hence why a lot of it feels not punishing at all.

In general though, Dungeons should aim to be exciting, I think we're missing that in dungeon layout rather then just how much mechs they throw at us also if you consider how much job design has been downgraded, practicing a job you don't play often in casual/dungeon content has lost meaning as you dont really need to practice a different job much.

Should dungeons be accessible? yes Should dungeons be so easy that you should be able to roll through it? No. Whats the point of having content if it's that easy and bland? theirs got to be some level of challenge or awareness, I'm sorry but if your playing a game with mechanics not a visual novel.

i'm not gunna sugar coat and no i dont give a flip how you "try-hards" feel about it so don't @ me. what you clearly want is a different game entirely and this is not it this is Final Fantasy i can tell most of ya'll haven't touched a mainline final fantasy at all cause this is just par the course the franchise is not known for its extreme difficulties yes they do add challenging monsters and optional super bosses but none of those stop you from experience the main point which is the RPG elements and the long storied journey with comrades to challenge adversity. its all classic fairytale stuff yes most ya'll out here trying to make this some edgy gothic nightmare which it just isn't nor will it ever be. face it you're outnumbered by the casual audience and they will always opt to easiest way out possible to get things done with as little effort as possible. so take it or find better pastures better yet why not just do things synced and minimum ilvl? you're essentially challenging yourself they way you want to be challenged that or wait for more criterion dungeons or ask for more dungeons like it stop trying to trample on the casuals' space you wont win an the developers wont listen to you they made up their mind an they are going to stick with it wether you like that or not.

I think it's a return to form! I like the new dungeon. Hard dungeons and trails might be fun when they first release but they get annoying when you encounter them in roulette.

Plus making normal mode too hard has been the death of many a mmo. Keeping harder mechanics optional is the correct way.

They do need to fix the gear scaling though so that the experience can be more consistent over time.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

We're back to endwalker difficulty content. Literally the one good thing about DT gameplay was the enhanced pace/mechanics.

I don't know what they are thinking. It's very difficult to not be disappointed all the time now.

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Once again we never left that difficulty.

7.0 dungeons seemed more difficult because everyone had the same ilvl, around the dungeon.
Patch dungeons have to be at the ilvl of previous dungeons gear so people that only did the msq can do them. So for 7.4, dungeon is made for 735 ilvl, while most player have a mix of 670 or 680 ilvl.

Personally, I had fun with the dungeon, in particular in the third boss, figuring out the exact right spots under the boss to remain at melee range when it does its "billion line AoEs across 80% of the arena" thing is pretty fun, and I feel satisfied when I clear without taking any unnecessary hits while doing that, which is pretty often by now.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

If you’re talking about the circus with the head guy … say what you will but it had personality. I prefer an annoying dungeon over a forgettable one truly.

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So you prefer going through something that just makes you want to play something else rather than play through something bland but at least tolerable?

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

i'm not gunna sugar coat and no i dont give a flip how you "try-hards" feel about it so don't @ me. what you clearly want is a different game entirely and this is not it this is Final Fantasy i can tell most of ya'll haven't touched a mainline final fantasy at all cause this is just par the course the franchise is not known for its extreme difficulties yes they do add challenging monsters and optional super bosses but none of those stop you from experience the main point which is the RPG elements and the long storied journey with comrades to challenge adversity. its all classic fairytale stuff yes most ya'll out here trying to make this some edgy gothic nightmare which it just isn't nor will it ever be. face it you're outnumbered by the casual audience and they will always opt to easiest way out possible to get things done with as little effort as possible. so take it or find better pastures better yet why not just do things synced and minimum ilvl? you're essentially challenging yourself they way you want to be challenged that or wait for more criterion dungeons or ask for more dungeons like it stop trying to trample on the casuals' space you wont win an the developers wont listen to you they made up their mind an they are going to stick with it wether you like that or not.

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I am mostly casual but I don't want casual dungeons anywhere near savage or ext difficulty, in fact I just want the game to be more fun for casual players, which creating a learning environment with punishing mechs but also ones that don't cause auto wipes like in Ext+ is pretty needed. I think Dungeons should need to walk a fine line with difficulty pushing away players shouldn't be the objective but boring anyone who's paying some attention shouldn't be the objective either

I don't think dungeons need to be more difficult they need to be more fun, I think DT while was slightly more difficult was barely anymore fun for the most part, Dungeons need to have a level of forgiveness towards them but they need to be engaging enough that your still actually playing a game.

I think why they're running into this issue of why people feel so bored is more because Job design is very dull for anyone who's played more then one job, dungeons could be used to learn and practice a job, Such as black mage it made dungeon runs slightly more fun for me because of how differently it used to play, but that has been eroded in favour of mechanics.

When you actually look at the big picture the issue has always been that SE keeps taking away class design for better flashy mechanics, if jobs themselves are very boring in content that is meant to be easy but you need to do for tomes then it becomes a chore, SE should look into making the jobs themselves more fun and interactive because if you mess up a job in casual content for the most part its not really detrimental.

In summary better job design, more FUN dungeons, not necessarily difficult.