GNB is TERRIBLE now!

Undo ALL of the GNB changes.
It's unplayable, it was good as it was. You didn't need to change it.

No idea why they thought that making GNB play like WAR, with the whole 'press 60s CD, then big hit 3 times in a row', was necessary, especially since DRK also already had that design element in the kit. At least with PLD's 60s they press the 'big hit' button 4 times in a row instead of 3 so it's slightly different /s

It's like carcinization. Every Job's design trends towards being a Warrior. Even non-Tank roles are getting it too, with WHM getting 3 Glare4's after pressing POM (so maybe that's going to be reduced to 60s next)

I saw 60cd change and thought: "Okay, 2 min meta gone, maybe i can solo things faster and better now". Then you see bunch of potencies nerfed and some abilities require 2 cartridges and stacking ability now. It really does look like it's war now because ability that stacks 2 times = check, 60cd one core = check.

I'm not sure about the changes of yet as I'm not much of a Gunbreaker player and I'm also not sure how strong or weak it is now.

But at the very least, this new "overcart" thing was very confusing to look at. Gold bullets are two bullets? We needed The Powder Gauge to extend and actually show 6 bullets.
Too much visual information going on, for a job they were attempting to simplify, it just felt overwhelming.

If playing clunky and easily getting fcked over by kill times means "good" to you, then that's a you issue. Because that is exactly how the job was to many many players and why this change was made. The job is now more flexible in downtime situations and has a more free playstyle which doesn't make you despair as soon as you have to take a GCD of downtime and suddenly your entire rotation is messed up and you now end up having to either delay burst or live with sacrificing a cartridge. And in terms of rotation, not much changes btw. It plays mostly the same, just with less having to worry about everything lining up perfectly. And the "nerf" is around 1% by the way, it is almost not noticable.

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Originally Posted by MayuAmakura

I saw 60cd change and thought: "Okay, 2 min meta gone, maybe i can solo things faster and better now". Then you see bunch of potencies nerfed and some abilities require 2 cartridges and stacking ability now. It really does look like it's war now because ability that stacks 2 times = check, 60cd one core = check.

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They took a look at the tank's general dps amount and probably considered that GNB is too powerful, and so they nerfed it. I do enjoy having more charges though.

oh no, your job is doing slightly less damage.

I haven't tried it but from what I read in the patch notes, it seemed like Quality of Life changes.

This was their logic:

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If gunbreaker did not manage their cartridges carefully during burst phases, executing Bloodfest would result in cartridge overflow. To rectify this irritation, we have added an effect to Bloodfest that increases the maximum number of cartridges available.

When battle mechanics required gunbreaker to distance themselves from the target, the recast timer of Gnashing Fang would often become a hinderance during burst phases. We changed Gnashing Fang to a charged action to help alleviate this issue, but also had concerns that executing an optimal rotation while under the effect of No Mercy might overcomplicate the management of recast times and cartridges. In order to maintain a proper balance, we have shortened the recast time of Bloodfest and adjusted the cartridge cost of Double Down.

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Where the heck is my buddy Carighan? They gave it back 2 cart double down is back like you wanted. :D

Also I think having 60 second cooldowns better overall. Two minutes is too long of a cd for how boring and 1 dimensional 2 minute burst skills are. Not to mention 30s and 45s windows we used to have :(

As far as homogenization goes this change feels not as bad as others.

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Originally Posted by IzanamiNoMikotoo

If playing clunky and easily getting fcked over by kill times means "good" to you, then that's a you issue. Because that is exactly how the job was to many many players and why this change was made. The job is now more flexible in downtime situations and has a more free playstyle which doesn't make you dispair as soon as you have to take a GCD of downtime and suddenly your entire rotation is messed up and you now end up having to either delay burst or live with sacrificing a cartridge. And in terms of rotation, not much changes btw. It plays mostly the same, just with less having to worry about everything lining up perfectly. And the "nerf" is around 1% by the way, it is not almost not noticable.

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This just tells me how uninformed you are. The change killed GNB, if other players were struggling with it, then it was a skill issue from thier side. Real GNB mains like myself didn't want any changes, it's unneeded and uncalled for.

I'm very uninformed to how the job is intended to function is high tier play, but I always loved GNB and this just looks awkward. Considering you can hammer through cartridge combos so much more, it just feels like they're doing the thing of making the regular 123 combo into filler. That's actually something I've always felt with Machinist, too. High ping continues to be my real savage raid.

I just leveled Dark Knight to 100 recently and I got to grips with it pretty immediately, so I'll still have a tank to be comfy on. Which is baffling since Gunbreaker is supposed to be objectively better in every way from DRK.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

I'm very uninformed to how the job is intended to function is high tier play, but I always loved GNB and this just looks awkward. Considering you can hammer through cartridge combos so much more, it just feels like they're doing the thing of making the regular 123 combo into filler. That's actually something I've always felt with Machinist, too. High ping continues to be my real savage raid.

I just leveled Dark Knight to 100 recently and I got to grips with it pretty immediately, so I'll still have a tank to be comfy on. Which is baffling since Gunbreaker is supposed to be objectively better in every way from DRK.

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The only real edge Gunbreaker has over dark knight is the sustain and healing. Tbn is such a strong mit when timed well that i hardly noticed. Now that we have a better living dead, upgraded wall of shadow that heals and a better heal on carve/abyssal drain that they feel about equal in sustain

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

I'm very uninformed to how the job is intended to function is high tier play, but I always loved GNB and this just looks awkward. Considering you can hammer through cartridge combos so much more, it just feels like they're doing the thing of making the regular 123 combo into filler. That's actually something I've always felt with Machinist, too. High ping continues to be my real savage raid.

I just leveled Dark Knight to 100 recently and I got to grips with it pretty immediately, so I'll still have a tank to be comfy on. Which is baffling since Gunbreaker is supposed to be objectively better in every way from DRK.

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You use warr / pld for soloing maps. Drk and gnb are just bad for it. For soloing outside though, gnb was beast. Not sure now with nerfed potencies. As for other content like deep dungeon, drk is fun and good.

Look at the language they use in the patch notes. They describe the gunbreaker changes as "rectifying an irritation". It's beyond me how someone who so clearly despises MMO class design ended up in charge of it.

They saw that gunbreaker was like slightly more complicated then other tanks and had to manage things well and saw it as a problem, Tanks in paticular can't have anything complicated because we have to apparently manage our defensive cooldowns despite the fact its trival

They will not go back on changes, believe me I want Paladins dot and alternative combo rotation with two bursts back I'll never get it best I do is enjoy playing holy warrior. I wonder what jobs next after ruining gunbreaker and taking a tackle at red mage, my bet is bard as it's seen as too "clunky :(" for your average player. Maybe dancer because procs are "too clunky!" because we have to have auto rotations that are both super easy and not changing. Mind you I despise playing bard but I don't want it reworked for those that enjoy it, the job isn't for me some jobs shouldn't appeal to everyone.

Any sort of friction is seen as out dated, If you like something for being unique it will likely be removed down the line 8.0 job reworks will either not even be a thing or will be making any sort of "friction" removed, perhaps we will also get auto combo and remove any DOT timer because we should enjoy the mechanics guys! the fights are cool focus on that! who cares about having a fun job when you got mechanics! you will enjoy DDR and you will like it.

We will see though, just my advice is don't get your hopes up for 8.0 or them reverting any job rework, trust me I wish they would revert Paladin, they would Revert black mage, revert Astro they never will we are stuck with warrior slop design because they want you to focus on flashy encounters and the only complexity can be inside savage and ultimate raids.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

No idea why they thought that making GNB play like WAR, with the whole 'press 60s CD, then big hit 3 times in a row', was necessary, especially since DRK also already had that design element in the kit. At least with PLD's 60s they press the 'big hit' button 4 times in a row instead of 3 so it's slightly different /s

It's like carcinization. Every Job's design trends towards being a Warrior. Even non-Tank roles are getting it too, with WHM getting 3 Glare4's after pressing POM (so maybe that's going to be reduced to 60s next)

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This is actually an easy guess. One single person is likely the reason for it, and they love playing WAR.

Hard disagree, GNB was my main in 5.X and since 6.X it has been my secondary and I adore these changes.

Waiter, more Lion Heart combo please!

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Originally Posted by brinn12

This is actually an easy guess. One single person is likely the reason for it, and they love playing WAR.

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I think he was bragging about how these changes were really good for gunbreaker if im not mistaken so it checks out lol. Also said the awful 6.3 paladin rework was good because every tank has to be like warrior.

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Originally Posted by TeresaFortell

They took a look at the tank's general dps amount and probably considered that GNB is too powerful, and so they nerfed it. I do enjoy having more charges though.

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The nerf amounts to 1% overall. Which is perfectly fine as GNB was noticeably ahead of the other three.

As for the changes. I haven't poked around with them much, but the whole rationale behind it is due to GNB being uniquely screwed in downtime heavy encounters. If at any point Gnashing Fang drifts, you're just screwed for the remainder of that fight as there isn't a way to re-align it. Apparently, this has been a pretty big source of criticism in JP along with RDM needing to go into melee range during it's burst. Lo and behold what got changed.

BLM was also a massive point of contention with them over a perceived need to "modernize" it's design.

no

https://cdn.betterttv.net/emote/5803...e35267/1x.webp

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Originally Posted by AstreaLove

This just tells me how uninformed you are. The change killed GNB, if other players were struggling with it, then it was a skill issue from thier side. Real GNB mains like myself didn't want any changes, it's unneeded and uncalled for.

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i love that you call-out people on their skills when you havent cleared anything that requires more than 3 working braincells lol Discussing about change is fine but telling people they have skills issue for disagreeing with you? nope

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

but the whole rationale behind it is due to GNB being uniquely screwed in downtime heavy encounters. If at any point Gnashing Fang drifts, you're just screwed for the remainder of that fight as there isn't a way to re-align it.

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That was literally the only thing fun about GNB. The fact that it was actually non-trivial to adjust around downtime. And even then it was not that hard at all. I did it in DSR back in EW and I don't remember much difficulty. I didn't need to look up any logs to get an orange first try. About the only thing to optimize in there was P6 too.

The fact that you actually had to think about whether to burn a cartridge right now that affects whether you can use double down 50 seconds later. That was the only thing that made it interesting.

Idk why I'm even talking about this honestly, not like I even play this shitty game anymore.

The GNB changes are excellent. All this shows me is you don't understand either the job itself, balance, or both.

First, elephant in the room, yes, damage nerf. Yes, it needed it, or the other tanks needed buffs to bring them in line. They went with nerf, valid option, it's fine.

Now the main changes. Yeah, it's a 1 minute job now. That's not a bad change, GNB is far more forgiving now, you won't ever waste cartridges on bloodfest because of a bad situation or have to delay it because now it bumps you up to a max of 6 and gives you 3 to fill you up. Yes, Double down costs 2 now, but you have 6 so it's the same. Lionheart combo is done once per minute instead of once every 2 minutes and gets a potency nerf, brilliant! Less potency but more uses becomes more consistency, if you didn't crit and/or direct hit your lionheart it felt terrible because of the huge damage gain, that has been made smaller, so the inconsistencies in damage between equally performing players has decreased. In short, less RNG.

It also puts you in a pretty standard loop instead of having the boring 1 minute rotation and the better 2 minute rotation. Gnashing fang on charges is another great change because you have on to throw around wherever you like, so you can hold it if you need to reposition or have downtime coming up without drifting and still have it up for your burst. Sonic break is a shorter dot, so you lose less damage when a target dies shortly after being applied or goes invulnerable.

I feel people are complaining because that's just what people do when something they like changes, but not all change is bad. Embrace it, enjoy it. Put time in to it before judging it, it's literally day 1.

The regular 123 combo on every job IS filler. That's it's whole purpose.

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Originally Posted by Carstien

Snip.

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GNB changes being excellent is subjective, if you like warrior and having nothing to really manage then yes it's a excellent change if you don't then oh well too bad for you theirs no tank anymore that's got to manage anything other then auto rotation and burst.

Damage nerf was needed, I also agree that Lionheart crit rng was terrible but its not like they could have changed that without completely changing the job.

It is a bad design to make another tank fall under 1 minute, PLD/WAR already fall under one minute, if you take a second to look GNB and PLD are even more similar now because of it which is a bad thing. Tanks should generally feel different enough.

Doesn't the Gnashing fang changes actually restrict gnb under level 100 to only use it twice during no mercy? I could be wrong. I'd be more in favour of it having two charges if they accounted for any content below 100 ever but they don't, it took them ages to give PLD a gap closer at 70 content instead of 80 content and to give dark missionary at 70 content.

People are complaining because they've changed the job into less management and into a simplified watered down version of it's self that's very simple, frankly some people actually like room to mess up at times it's not bad that a job punishes you for making mistakes in a rotation.

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Originally Posted by Carstien

The regular 123 combo on every job IS filler. That's it's whole purpose.

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Regular 1, 2, 3 shouldn't be filler.

Rotations like samurai's filler should be filler having different combos, Procs like dancers should be filler, a 1, 2, 3 is not a good example of filler, not on a tank, healer or a dps it's just bad and frankly boring.

Rithys got a point. The best filler never FEELS like filler. Dragoon having a 5 button combo with buttons that transform animation when executed correctly is awesome. It was even cooler when wheeling thrust and fang and claw interacted with gauge. Reapers 123 filler would feel really bad if it didn't have to manage mark of death and soul slice. People actually want reaper debuff gone and it makes me big sad.

Paladin used to and still kinda does have the best filler combo of the tanks imo. 1 2 3 spell new 123 animation is so satisfying compared to the 9999th soul eater combo or solid barrel combo. Warrior has two finishers to its 123 and each weapon skill plays a slash sound per step in the combo.

Heavy swing-1 swing sound effect > main - 2 swing sounds > storms path - 3 slash sounds. So warrior gets a bonus for me because of that.

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Originally Posted by IzanamiNoMikotoo

If playing clunky and easily getting fcked over by kill times means "good" to you, then that's a you issue. Because that is exactly how the job was to many many players and why this change was made. The job is now more flexible in downtime situations and has a more free playstyle which doesn't make you dispair as soon as you have to take a GCD of downtime and suddenly your entire rotation is messed up and you now end up having to either delay burst or live with sacrificing a cartridge. And in terms of rotation, not much changes btw. It plays mostly the same, just with less having to worry about everything lining up perfectly. And the "nerf" is around 1% by the way, it is not almost not noticable.

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No, what they did was make it the same job as war and paladin
Can't wait for drk to be the next one so the tanks can just be "pick your particle effects"

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

No, what they did was make it the same job as war and paladin
Can't wait for drk to be the next one so the tanks can just be "pick your particle effects"

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???????

Um hello? Are are we gonna act like the 60s shadowbringers onwards version of delirium wasn't watered inner release? They both even gave 5 charges back in 5.0. Dark knight had its unique mechanics stripped to make the tank archetype what is now. Warriors drain tanking? Dark knights old abyssal drain gcd spam with old dark arts. All tanks having a powerful short cd mitigation? TBN was so awesome in stormblood they shadowbringers gives everyone a strong short cd and in endwalker we made all of them better then tbn.

Dark knight has plunge, a unique dash attack only available to dark knight?? Stormblood drops, now warrior has one. Shadowbringers now all tanks have dash attacks. Now Dark knight is one of the only two tanks with no offensive dash attack and it lost the iconic plunge animation and sound.

Dark knight is the sacrificial lamb they offered to make the modern homogeneous tank design at least kinda fun.

Let's not forget dark knight also lost a second combo string in shadow bringers and and lost scourge between stormblood and heavensward.
But EVERY OTHER TANK had a second combo or combo finisher and they basically recycled scourge into Gunbreaker's sonic break.

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/..._QL70_ML2_.jpg

8.0 patch.

I really don't like these changes after giving them a chance in the normal raids last night, unfortunately. I don't really know how to properly describe why it feels off, but it's like they took a belt sander to the job for the sake of people who don't actually play it.

Pretty disappointed since I've been pretty much onetricking GNB since the beginning of Endwalker when I started raiding. I think I'm gonna end up swapping to DRK.

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Originally Posted by SalamanderIX

I'm not sure about the changes of yet as I'm not much of a Gunbreaker player and I'm also not sure how strong or weak it is now.

But at the very least, this new "overcart" thing was very confusing to look at. Gold bullets are two bullets? We needed The Powder Gauge to extend and actually show 6 bullets.
Too much visual information going on, for a job they were attempting to simplify, it just felt overwhelming.

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It's a very weird and stupid attempt to copy the Brotherhood "overchakra" from MNK, only they turn gold instead of red. The big difference is that the chakra gauge was already a full circle, while the powder gauge still only uses a third of the actual cylinder. Here's a remarkably shitty mockup I cobbled together in Paint:
https://i.imgur.com/yBd2aBv.png

For the simple gauge, the extra cartridges could just be below the normal ones. I wish they'd revert it, but they're very stubborn when it comes to their worst ideas.

Would I perform much better with the job with these changes? Absolutely.

Did I need help reaching the skill ceiling for a tank job I don't even main? Absolutely Not.

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Originally Posted by FalconPunchTigerknee

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/..._QL70_ML2_.jpg

8.0 patch.

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Why stop there? Bring in Ys bump combat.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

It is a bad design to make another tank fall under 1 minute, PLD/WAR already fall under one minute, if you take a second to look GNB and PLD are even more similar now because of it which is a bad thing. Tanks should generally feel different enough.

Doesn't the Gnashing fang changes actually restrict gnb under level 100 to only use it twice during no mercy? I could be wrong. I'd be more in favour of it having two charges if they accounted for any content below 100 ever but they don't, it took them ages to give PLD a gap closer at 70 content instead of 80 content and to give dark missionary at 70 content.



Regular 1, 2, 3 shouldn't be filler.

Rotations like samurai's filler should be filler having different combos, Procs like dancers should be filler, a 1, 2, 3 is not a good example of filler, not on a tank, healer or a dps it's just bad and frankly boring.

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I strongly disagree that making them run on a 1 min loop is a bad thing, there is no real reason that it would be. When it's a 2 min loop, because of tanks having less complicated rotations than a melee dps they begin to feel slow and stale. Look at DRK, the only one left on a 2 min loop, it's slow until you get there and then it's a frenzy. Evening it out is not a bad thing, in my opinion, and doesn't really change balance too much. I think the tanks feel different enough while also having the tools to compete. GNB has a faster paced 1 minute, WAR is slower but heavy hitting with the satisfying crunches and complete freedom of choice in the order you use the skills and PLD's is magical and can be done at ranged with a slight bit of flexibility. They maintain their identity without being polar opposites, imo.

Gnashing isn't restricted like that, no. You can only fit 8/9 GCD's under NM so that is one gnashing fang combo, lionheart combo, double down, sonic break. That's 8 total, add in a burst strike or if you really want to optimize time your gnashing fang so that the last GCD is under NM if you have a fast enough skp but it's a minor gain and otherwise you're free to just gnashing when you feel you have the time because of the charge system. I like to play on slower SKSP because I use PLD a lot and it needs 2.50 so I will never get more than one gnashing under NM, making the second completely free in my rotation.

The 123 combos are all filler, they just are. Yes, they are the backbone of the job but also filler, you use them when you don't have your stronger, better GCD's available. I don't see how this is even considered debatable for any of the tanks, or any job. When your burst and stronger gcd's are on cooldown, you resort to the filler. There may be exceptions, won't deny that but it's the general rule of thumb.

I think people are confusing "rigid/strict and punishing" with difficulty when they don't have anything to do with each other. Gunbreaker has never been a difficult job, it was just a strict job. There wasn't any complex decision making to make with the rotation to account for downtime, you just had to eat the downtime (accepting the damage loss or drift) or greed to make sure you didn't drift. No one considers Reaper to be a difficult dps job, it has a very simple rotation, but it is an extremely punishing job to make mistakes on.

What's changed with Gunbreaker, you can burst more often now and you have more flexibility with gnashing fang. Wouldn't allowing players to adjust their rotation based on the fight be a better expression of skill other than "yeah my ping allowed me to greed this mechanic like a maniac to get gnashing fan off without eating a damage down because I lived on the West Coast."

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Originally Posted by TeresaFortell

On the other hand, such a change to the job may just bring more people to play GNB, and the job would be more active during uptime.

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They've been constantly redesigning jobs for people that don't play those jobs since SB, and it only works when the jobs have significantly higher DPS than the rest of that role. SMN had high numbers after its lobotomy, was highly desired during EW, and then became one of the least played jobs in the game once it fell behind other casters.

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Originally Posted by Servebotfrank

I think people are confusing "rigid/strict and punishing" with difficulty when they don't have anything to do with each other. Gunbreaker has never been a difficult job, it was just a strict job. There wasn't any complex decision making to make with the rotation to account for downtime, you just had to eat the downtime (accepting the damage loss or drift)

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This is not true. Back when cartridge was harder to manage, one of the biggest optimizations you can do on fights with irregular downtime is figuring out how many burst strikes you can use. Another is learning when to optimally use the AoE combo in order to get cartridge, as it required one less GCD. Burning cartridge through the AoE also presented another avenue for optimization. This is fairly significant on P6 in DSR where downtime, AoE uptime (you aren't between both dragons all the time in P6) and managing bursts all coincide in a way that no other tanks had at the time.

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Originally Posted by Carstien

I strongly disagree that making them run on a 1 min loop is a bad thing, there is no real reason that it would be. When it's a 2 min loop, because of tanks having less complicated rotations than a melee dps they begin to feel slow and stale. Look at DRK, the only one left on a 2 min loop, it's slow until you get there and then it's a frenzy. Evening it out is not a bad thing, in my opinion, and doesn't really change balance too much.

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Maybe the problem, then, is the 2min meta forcing everything to burst at a common denominator of 60s? WAR used to burst at 90s back in SB. DRK used to have some 45s CDs in its kit, etc


As for me, I tried new GNB in a Trials Roulette (got Necron). It felt like it pretty much played itself. Lionheart was especially sad-feeling to me, both because it's used twice as often (feels less special) and the potency nerfs. If SE wanted to lower the potency on each of the hits (to reduce how much impact getting vs not getting Crits had), they could have given it a set of Continuation actions of its own, to mirror the Gnashing Fang combo. You know, the system that makes GNB unique from the other Tanks? Changing how often we use it to fall directly in line with... oh right, EVERY other Tank, why? What issue was there that GNB bursting at 2min had, that it bursting at 1min magically solves?

Hell, why don't we just rip the bandaid off now, and make Lionheart combo guaranteed to Crit/DHit? If every Tank is fated to just trend towards elements of WAR's design, why not just go all in now, and make the rotations perfectly identical in potency, different only in VFX? Then we can have WAR, WAR with big sword, WAR with shield, and WAR with sword but it sometimes explodes. Worked well enough for Healers, right?

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Maybe the problem, then, is the 2min meta forcing everything to burst at a common denominator of 60s? WAR used to burst at 90s back in SB. DRK used to have some 45s CDs in its kit, etc


As for me, I tried new GNB in a Trials Roulette (got Necron). It felt like it pretty much played itself. Lionheart was especially sad-feeling to me, both because it's used twice as often (feels less special) and the potency nerfs. If SE wanted to lower the potency on each of the hits (to reduce how much impact getting vs not getting Crits had), they could have given it a set of Continuation actions of its own, to mirror the Gnashing Fang combo. You know, the system that makes GNB unique from the other Tanks? Changing how often we use it to fall directly in line with... oh right, EVERY other Tank, why? What issue was there that GNB bursting at 2min had, that it bursting at 1min magically solves?

Hell, why don't we just rip the bandaid off now, and make Lionheart combo guaranteed to Crit/DHit? If every Tank is fated to just trend towards elements of WAR's design, why not just go all in now, and make the rotations perfectly identical in potency, different only in VFX? Then we can have WAR, WAR with big sword, WAR with shield, and WAR with sword but it sometimes explodes. Worked well enough for Healers, right?

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You're not wrong, there are many ways they can even out the potentcy variance of lionheart, each with it's own problems. Talk about making it feel like WAR, that's what making it autocrit would do as you know. Giving it a continuation and lowering potency just turns it into gnashing fang. Not a bad thing but at that point why?

A 1 minute burst though, is something that works for tanks because of the downtime between burst windows and how much less active every tank rotation is by design. They'd have to change that whole design to make it a bad option and as for the 2 min burst window itself, that isn't changing. It was made that way for a reason, so all jobs can feed into it or from it with consistency. That's why 90s buffs were generally removed, why anything but a 2min buff is pretty rare in jobs now. No matter what time frame you put for the raid buffs though, whether standardizing to a 1 min, 2 min, 3 min, 90 sec, etc...it doesn't matter. People will save their strongest skills for that window giving the option no matter where it is, after using in the opener, or they will complain that their best skills fall out of it. Look no further than MNK for an example that uses a redundant skill in the opener so they don't end up with their most powerful outside of raid buffs, where it would fall if playing as designed. If you've never tried it just look up double lunar opener for MNK.

Ultimately there is no perfect solution for everybody but I think this one is pretty clean for me with my 1 day of experience in it. That's all I got.