I wish the game would focus on being for medcore players more.

As the title does say - Hard content might be enjoyable however it's an endless struggle long-term.

However avoiding the puddles,quicker gameplay - things what make you feel that you are skilled does fill the satisfaction

They're trying. But they do the same error you're doing. Midcore is not a difficulty lvl. It's giving enough activities with that will procure a mild challenge, some dedication to complete while not bringing too much frustration. Difficulty can be one of the way to do that, but it can't be the only thing.

As long as the dev (and a good part of the playerbase) continue to make this confusion, it's dead.

For me it's the way how they arranged Valigarmanda fight on EX it felt way less than any other DDR fight. - I wish we had more of the dynamic during the fights

• More rewards and variety from Duty Roulette and then spamming as a job in need (tokens to level up alt jobs; other stuff;)
• More S-rank like mobs and events, leveling world-boss like mobs, grand company targets...
• Way more exp from fates and side quests; increase variety and quality of fates; non-combat fates like chocobo/frog races, ski jumping, beach ball...
• From time to time, add something to old instances and grind systems (glowing ARR job armor added to ARR relic grind system and following the same path), including new glowing stuff from EX demimateria crafting (add new demi and new crafts; low drop rates when unsynced :P)
• Improve healer experience ;) For WHM, remove freecure, replace cure 1 with 2, rename 3; reset cooldowns like assize out of combat...
• Expand Novice Network, allow people to join; create server channels for S/A-rank calls, and help is needed etc. Make the world more alive.
• Remove limits on some/all very-old treasure maps (daily CD; unique flag)
• Re-use aetherial gear (pink) - give it 5/5 materia slots, keep the ilvl lower than matching tier but make it give fun bonuses for open world, dungeons, and other chill content (while also working as spiritbond gear; especially for low levels, ARR relic materia farming, and whatnot).
• Move crafters away from automated and botted time-wasting. Maybe savage gear would be expert craft, while catch-up gear would be a normal craft without pentamelding craziness or 100 logs and 2000 scrip to make 1 plank.
• Add custom dungeon modes to DR; add a reason to do them (like actual cool rewards);
• Redo coils as DR raid or more so as one of the new dungeon modes, as it's story-heavy and cool story at that

And the list could go on :)

Are you taking on harder content and trying to grow as a player? We shouldnt expect the game to get easier the higher level we are and the longer the game goes on, The game needs to get harder cause we are suppose to grow our skill in our chosen job over the course of an Xpac

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Originally Posted by Raesha

Are you taking on harder content and trying to grow as a player? We shouldnt expect the game to get easier the higher level we are and the longer the game goes on, The game needs to get harder cause we are suppose to grow our skill in our chosen job over the course of an Xpac

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No something what is opposite to DDR fights we have right now where your reactions towards what boss does matter more.
Now you have to memorize where to go each time as it's almost the same.. each time.

Thats sadly not how the game works, every encounter is a scripted dance even the ultimates.... The most random ultimate is UCOB phase 2 when its Nael and thats still scripted to a point, you know youre gonna get 3 different effects at some point during the phase, I just dont think the type of gameplay you want is feasible with the current spaghetti that 14 is

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Originally Posted by Raesha

Thats sadly not how the game works, every encounter is a scripted dance even the ultimates....

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Rathalos, Giruveganaus and basically all the diresaurs in the game would like to have a word.
They're rare, yes, but there's mobs whose mechanics solely rely on your reaction to what they're doing without having a scripted order to it. I wish they did it more often!

extrials and most savages and chaotic... oh and field ops. we're doing ok compared to hardcore players tbh.

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Originally Posted by Raesha

Thats sadly not how the game works, every encounter is a scripted dance even the ultimates.... The most random ultimate is UCOB phase 2 when its Nael and thats still scripted to a point, you know youre gonna get 3 different effects at some point during the phase, I just dont think the type of gameplay you want is feasible with the current spaghetti that 14 is

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San d'Oria's first boss, Ozma, the WoD Chaotic has a random sequence on how mechanics carry out, its not impossible, they just don't do it as much.

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Originally Posted by MikeCake

San d'Oria's first boss, Ozma, the WoD Chaotic has a random sequence on how mechanics carry out, its not impossible, they just don't do it as much.

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They don't do it as much seemly because of a belief players desire consistency in fights, and you can notice how the most random mechanics are almost always in casual content barring a few exceptions, a good example of this is my lovely queen, Honey B. Lovely, in M2N, during Honey B. Live, the slow-moving hearts have a very erratic, difficult to predict pattern to them, I am sure it's not completely random but it might as well be, and there are tons of AoEs all over the place on top, then in M2S, during the same segment, the hearts have a ridiculously predictable, easy to dodge pattern, and the AoEs are replaced with tower soaks that anyone can take so long as it is in their heart budget(on Normal tower soaks do happen, but not until the 2nd Honey B. Live), meaning they throw the more punishing, but nonetheless more predictable version of the mechanic at you right away, there is a clear flow here that the harder the content is meant to be, the more predictable they want to make it, with a few variants, 2 to 4, of the same mechanic at most. and which variant you get being the random element.

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Originally Posted by Raesha

Are you taking on harder content and trying to grow as a player? We shouldnt expect the game to get easier the higher level we are and the longer the game goes on, The game needs to get harder cause we are suppose to grow our skill in our chosen job over the course of an Xpac

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So you want the difficulty to increase at each expansion (which it has definitely done without a fault at the encounter level so far), and expect players to keep up? There is a point where they'll reach their own personal limits, and even if not so, all the new players will still have to climb the same hill, so you can only imagine how it's going to be for those when the hill to catch up suddenly turned into Mount Olympus after enough expansions...

We're already seeing this with dawntrail and we're not even speaking about "midcore" content, just the baseline that's been cranked up.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

They don't do it as much seemly because of a belief players desire consistency in fights, and you can notice how the most random mechanics are almost always in casual content barring a few exceptions, a good example of this is my lovely queen, Honey B. Lovely, in M2N, during Honey B. Live, the slow-moving hearts have a very erratic, difficult to predict pattern to them, I am sure it's not completely random but it might as well be, and there are tons of AoEs all over the place on top, then in M2S, during the same segment, the hearts have a ridiculously predictable, easy to dodge pattern, and the AoEs are replaced with tower soaks that anyone can take so long as it is in their heart budget(on Normal tower soaks do happen, but not until the 2nd Honey B. Live), meaning they throw the more punishing, but nonetheless more predictable version of the mechanic at you right away, there is a clear flow here that the harder the content is meant to be, the more predictable they want to make it, with a few variants, 2 to 4, of the same mechanic at most. and which variant you get being the random element.

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If someone dies in a normal mode it usually doesn't matter, you just get them back up and continue, so randomness isn't an issue.

But because pretty much everything in savage kills you instantly if you mess up, which then leads to cascading deaths or an entire party wipe, the punishment for even a single player messing up is significantly harsher. Which doesn't lend itself very well to random mechanics.
You already need to memorize 8+ minutes of quick and precise execution to not reset the entire fight constantly, making those mechanics erratic and random as well will quickly lead to frustration.

It is basically a problem they have created for themselves, by designing savage mechanics in the way they have since late ShB.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

If someone dies in a normal mode it usually doesn't matter, you just get them back up and continue, so randomness isn't an issue.

But because pretty much everything in savage kills you instantly if you mess up, which then leads to cascading deaths or an entire party wipe, the punishment for even a single player messing up is significantly harsher. Which doesn't lend itself very well to random mechanics.
You already need to memorize 8+ minutes of quick and precise execution to not reset the entire fight constantly, making those mechanics erratic and random as well will quickly lead to frustration.

It is basically a problem they have created for themselves, by designing savage mechanics in the way they have since late ShB.

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This is why I dislike savage mechanics and prefer extremes. I know extremes also tend to lean on that pattern but gosh it's boring to memorize patterns and safe spots. This isn't something I like genuinely. It's way boring and can be tiresome to learn. Specially when every single fight solves around clock spots, this is getting really boring. I much more would prefer if we had fights like other mmo do, where you can do a mechanic in multiple ways and not expect "gosh, my memory is bad" to occur.

This also happens due to sheer simplicity of classes so most things don't matter in fight and make it trivial. Tanks can turn their backs, doesn't matter, armor doesn't matter, gear is same for everyone. Just a slight more improvement over this could create a different encounter.

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Originally Posted by Valence

So you want the difficulty to increase at each expansion (which it has definitely done without a fault at the encounter level so far), and expect players to keep up? There is a point where they'll reach their own personal limits, and even if not so, all the new players will still have to climb the same hill, so you can only imagine how it's going to be for those when the hill to catch up suddenly turned into Mount Olympus after enough expansions...

We're already seeing this with dawntrail and we're not even speaking about "midcore" content, just the baseline that's been cranked up.

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??? Dawntrail's content has been easier
the tier has been easier than pandemonium (look at clear rates) and fru is easier than dsr and top.

what "baseline" has been "cranked up" ?

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Originally Posted by Bryson

??? Dawntrail's content has been easier
the tier has been easier than pandemonium (look at clear rates) and fru is easier than dsr and top.

what "baseline" has been "cranked up" ?

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What are you talking about? In what world are savage and ultimate the 'baseline'?

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Originally Posted by Valence

What are you talking about? In what world are savage and ultimate the 'baseline'?

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it seems arbitrary to reduce all of DT to dungeons and trials? but even if you did do that, that doesn't change the fact that the tier is easier and fru is easier than dsr and top.

more people clearing endgame relative to previous expansions suggests to me, dt is easier... if it were harder, the clear rates would reflect that.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

it seems arbitrary to reduce all of DT to dungeons and trials?

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The MSQ defines an expansion and its patches. Savages and Ultimates are merely small extras for people who want something a little more.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

The MSQ defines an expansion and its patches. Savages and Ultimates are merely small extras for people who want something a little more.

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defines it for msq andies maybe.. there's more to the game than fetch quests and logging of until the next series of fetch quests are released 19 weeks later. you have a very reductive take on what an expansion consists of.

That's actually good the more accessible DDR fights get the more people can actually enjoy them.

I don't think Valence was saying that dungeons and normal Trials are all there is to the game, rather that when argue for what the baseline is, which is to say, the lowest common denominator, the base that everyone engages with, then yes, dungeons and trails absolutely are baseline, acting like Savage is in any way, shape, or form "baseline" is ridiculous, regardless how you feel about the difficulty, Savage is literally the second highest difficulty content in the game, behind Ultimates, it is pretty high up in the tier list.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

I don't think Valence was saying that dungeons and normal Trials are all there is to the game, rather that when argue for what the baseline is, which is to say, the lowest common denominator, the base that everyone engages with, then yes, dungeons and trails absolutely are baseline, acting like Savage is in any way, shape, or form "baseline" is ridiculous, regardless how you feel about the difficulty, Savage is literally the second highest difficulty content in the game, behind Ultimates, it is pretty high up in the tier list.

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Mine feedback towards the fights would be to make them more accessible and reach a higher % of total clears. - making a game what targets 5-7% of total playerbase does lead us... To what we have today.
Nobody does lose anything if more people can participate in acitvities. - Way more people right now fear entering the EX / SAV than ever before.

Overall the base game could have a little bit higher difficulity however the end one is fine as FSR.

Savage after certain period of time feels way more like a longterm struggle than actually something fun to do at least to me and people i meet they simply quit.

What is medcore? Most players who raid and are on PC (majority) are using cheats conveniently called "QoL Plugins" to varying degrees of severity, from a relatively tame hitbox display and camera hack to full-on <snip> that paints all mechanics on your screen 10 seconds before they happen. IMO they should just stop trying at all because these people only want the show-off. (Which if you think about it, is absolutely pathetic).

Actually <snip> now seems to be some sort of baseline standard-issue because the amount of people who insta-react and make out tiny safe spots before the mechanic even begins to unfold has gotten laughable.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

defines it for msq andies maybe.. there's more to the game than fetch quests and logging of until the next series of fetch quests are released 19 weeks later. you have a very reductive take on what an expansion consists of.

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There's more to the game than doing just Savage and Ultimate raids as well. Even if more people have cleared this content, that's still only less than 15% of the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Myotis

MWay more people right now fear entering the EX / SAV than ever before.

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Where'd you get this info from? people cleared the tier in pf week 2.. the clears rates for savage have gone up relative to previous tiers. FRU is also the easiest ultimate in in years.

DT is the most casual friendly expansion ever.

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Originally Posted by boigerking

There's more to the game than doing just Savage and Ultimate raids as well. Even if more people have cleared this content, that's still only less than 15% of the playerbase.

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The only "playerbase" metric that remotely matters is active players (luckybancho census).

People should care less about what strangers are and aren't doing, and more about how they have fun.

All I ask for is challenging content where one death or mistake doesn't cause a catastrophe and wipe the group. If they can expand the difficulty of Extreme trials into other content, reward other types of gear, and reward personal skill expression, that would be considered midcore to me. Right now, Ex trials are the only from of "midcore" content I have. I have tried to step foot into savage, but became overly frustrated when I 100% learned the fight, only for one person to make a slight mistake, and now the whole group is dead. That's not midcore content.

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Originally Posted by Dastan

All I ask for is challenging content where one death or mistake doesn't cause a catastrophe and wipe the group. If they can expand the difficulty of Extreme trials into other content, reward other types of gear, and reward personal skill expression, that would be considered midcore to me. Right now, Ex trials are the only from of "midcore" content I have. I have tried to step foot into savage, but became overly frustrated when I 100% learned the fight, only for one person to make a slight mistake, and now the whole group is dead. That's not midcore content.

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savage is midcore.. don't let na casuals convince you otherwise. the tier was cleared week 2 in pf. nothing "hc" about that.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

savage is midcore.. don't let na casuals convince you otherwise. the tier was cleared week 2 in pf. nothing "hc" about that.

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Just because ex trials are trivial to you at this point, doesn't mean it's not midcore or casual. Casual battle content is anything queueable and part of the roulette rotation. That is already established. And although you can technically queue for them, they are not a part of the rotation. Savage raids are punishing in the fact they require perfection or nothing. Body checks ongoing for every other mechanic (light parties and pairs) on top of mechanics that require you to stand in this specific spot or wipe the group for your mistake. Extremes have more leeway in that often, a single death does not mean you are causing a wipe and it's more easily recoverable while still being a bit challenging. Ultimate raiders will see Ex trails as "casual" because it is trivial for them. It's easy. While they are a bit pushed in savage raids. So to them, savage might be "midcore". But to the casual midcore player, savage raids are about the hardest content they will step foot in.

I don't even hope to clear an ultimate raid. It's not even on my list of things to do, because I know it's not possible for me due to the difficulty of the content. I have cleared every extreme so far in this expansion, and last tier, I wasn't able to even clear m3s through PF at all. I didn't even attempt to set foot in this tier's savage because I refuse to go through that again. And PF being able to clear a savage tier quick really depends on who's in PF. If you wait a few months to try, you won't get the same people in PF as when the content was initially released. You get the exact kind of person you are. A casual midcore type player setting foot into savage for the first time. These people are not clearing the tier in just 2 weeks. That's been my experience.

From what I was hearing was that EX/Savage in DT is easier, while the MSQ content is harder. Essentially, there is now less distance between the difficulties. Apparently, few are happy with this (MSQ too hard, Savage too easy), instead of it bridging a gap between the levels of play.

What I feel is missing is the side content just isn't there like it used to be. Chocobo Racing or Verminion could both use total rehauls to make them appealing for more players, or a new minigame. Like Chess or something. I don't really know. It's just old and abandoned instead of trying to make something good out it. If they refuse to give us snowboarding or blitzball they can at least make what is already built better!

We also got interesting side-quest series in earlier expansions. ARR had the Moogle Mail questline with lots of lore heavy and interesting short stories, and Hildibrand's ARR adventure actually had a spin-off in the Scholasticate mystery in HW. I really miss that kind of thing. Tural REALLY could've used something akin to that to flesh it out after our short time there before Alexandria monopolized the story for the rest of DT. If stuff like Cosmic Exploration is meant to replace it, cool, but where's my story?

Just git gud.

Why are we complaining the game is harder all of a sudden at level 100?

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Originally Posted by Bryson

it seems arbitrary to reduce all of DT to dungeons and trials? but even if you did do that, that doesn't change the fact that the tier is easier and fru is easier than dsr and top.

more people clearing endgame relative to previous expansions suggests to me, dt is easier... if it were harder, the clear rates would reflect that.

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Well unless I'm wrong the thread was made by someone looking for more "midcore", according to how they'd define it, something that doesn't require the same amount of preparation and effort and homework with raidplans than extreme/savage/ultimate, yet offers enough challenge that it doesn't turn into a snoozefest like the baseline (msq, dungeons etc). We've in fact have had this multiple times in the game's history, like CLL or Dalriada. That's why I specifically replied on the baseline when everything at that level has clearly gone up in difficulty, especially at specific points in expansions: SB into SHB that saw a sudden increase at the encounter level (notably DDR) to make up for the annihilation of job complexity, and EW into DT (faster pace, more visual cues, etc). I don't know why we're bringing up savage+.

But if we're speaking about savage, I've found Arcadion savage a lot harder than anything we've had previously (with the exception of EW ultimates and criterions, and superchain theory), but I know that's just me and I'm not a majority among raiders on that. I just deal extremely poorly with that kind of design.

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Originally Posted by Dastan

Just because ex trials are trivial to you at this point, doesn't mean it's not midcore or casual. Casual battle content is anything queueable and part of the roulette rotation. That is already established. And although you can technically queue for them, they are not a part of the rotation. Savage raids are punishing in the fact they require perfection or nothing. Body checks ongoing for every other mechanic (light parties and pairs) on top of mechanics that require you to stand in this specific spot or wipe the group for your mistake. Extremes have more leeway in that often, a single death does not mean you are causing a wipe and it's more easily recoverable while still being a bit challenging. Ultimate raiders will see Ex trails as "casual" because it is trivial for them. It's easy. While they are a bit pushed in savage raids. So to them, savage might be "midcore". But to the casual midcore player, savage raids are about the hardest content they will step foot in.

I don't even hope to clear an ultimate raid. It's not even on my list of things to do, because I know it's not possible for me due to the difficulty of the content. I have cleared every extreme so far in this expansion, and last tier, I wasn't able to even clear m3s through PF at all. I didn't even attempt to set foot in this tier's savage because I refuse to go through that again. And PF being able to clear a savage tier quick really depends on who's in PF. If you wait a few months to try, you won't get the same people in PF as when the content was initially released. You get the exact kind of person you are. A casual midcore type player setting foot into savage for the first time. These people are not clearing the tier in just 2 weeks. That's been my experience.

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I think it is an great example - the more accesible content would allow way more people to participate in this and at the end of the day nobody does lose anything if more people can do things.

There is always an ultimate for those who seek the greatest challange.

However what DT does prove vast majority of players just want to enjoy the game without making it an daily struggle or making it to be life accomplishment.

Completing duties or tasks does provide satisfaction & motivation to go on and continue.
More accesible content doesn't make anybody "weaker" or "worse".

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

They're trying. But they do the same error you're doing. Midcore is not a difficulty lvl. It's giving enough activities with that will procure a mild challenge, some dedication to complete while not bringing too much frustration. Difficulty can be one of the way to do that, but it can't be the only thing.

As long as the dev (and a good part of the playerbase) continue to make this confusion, it's dead.

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Hard disagree. Occult Crescent CE's would be midcore difficulty. Time spent playing the game is not Light-core, mid-core and hard-core and should never be viewed as such.

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Originally Posted by Exinias

Hard disagree. Occult Crescent CE's would be midcore difficulty. Time spent playing the game is not Light-core, mid-core and hard-core and should never be viewed as such.

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And this is why trying to frame “-cores” as difficulty based rather than effort based in near meaningless because I don’t think I know anything that would call CE’s as anything but casual

However I can fully see the argument for someone saying the grind for +2 arcanauts gear is a midcore grind. It’s not absolutely ridiculous but if you start it right now it’ll likely take at least a week to get at minimum

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

They're trying. But they do the same error you're doing. Midcore is not a difficulty lvl. It's giving enough activities with that will procure a mild challenge, some dedication to complete while not bringing too much frustration. Difficulty can be one of the way to do that, but it can't be the only thing.

As long as the dev (and a good part of the playerbase) continue to make this confusion, it's dead.

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Finally somebody with a brief and clear exposition of what Midcore as a concept is.

Difficulty is defnitely part of the equation, but not the entirety.

I think of everything DT has currently released the two closest candidates to “midcore” are +2 arcanauts and one “x of stars” title as they both have equivalent casual and hardcore grinds

For +2 arcanauts its equivalents would be either the relic atma or +0/+1 on the casual side and infamy of blood or bunny blessed on the hardcore side. +2 requires time and effort but not an incredible amount, you have to interact with forked but you don’t have to dominate it like with infamy of blood. You won’t get it in a day like you could with +0. It sits comfortably in the middle

For x of stars its casual equivalent would be the cosmic relics and its hardcore equivalent would be cosmic castle in the sky (whatever that achievement is actually called). It’s a decently lengthy grind to get one title. You can do it at a pace roughly in line with your acceptable difficulty level (fast if you can constantly do EX+, slower otherwise) and it feels decently attainable to do one but a lot to do more

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Finally somebody with a brief and clear exposition of what Midcore as a concept is.

Difficulty is defnitely part of the equation, but not the entirety.

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No. It's wrong. Because someone who does housing
designs would be considered hardcore because they do housing 5 hours a day every day. Someone who clears 2 ultimates everyday but is only logged in for an hour would be considered light-core by these interpretations. They 100% should always describe difficulty when talking about content, not time spent.

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Originally Posted by Exinias

No. It's wrong. Because someone who does housing
designs would be considered hardcore because they do housing 5 hours a day every day. Someone who clears 2 ultimates everyday but is only logged in for an hour would be considered light-core by these interpretations. They 100% should always describe difficulty when talking about content, not time spent.

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I think you're using a bad example with the Ultimate, because somebody who clears 2 per day... is on 'reclear mode', which is the content already completed, is it not? They probably spent weeks doing that, and by design of the product, that's most of the shelf life of the content.

It's also fine to label difficulty levels, but the structure of the content shouldn't be based solely on difficulty, and that's what the whole point of the midcore discussion. You need to avail a lot more than just difficulty. You should also look at acessibility, replayability and also the grind timesink.

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Originally Posted by Exinias

Hard disagree. Occult Crescent CE's would be midcore difficulty. Time spent playing the game is not Light-core, mid-core and hard-core and should never be viewed as such.

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So I won't express myself on OC before we have the full thing, but I said in other thread, I consider Exploration zones as content that can be both casual and midcore depending on how you interact with them. Doing eureka once for the story is pretty much casual, but farming it to get every eureka relics is definitely something midcore. Same goes for the extreme : clearing them on the fly is micore, but having a static, with scheldules several time of the weeks kinda lean on the hardcore side, because schelduling your life around a game is definitely something that should be considered hardcore.