Let us use PVP kits in PVE

If I hadn't made it obvious already, I hate your PVE job design. I think it's absolutely unsalvageable. I'm sorry; that's pretty blunt, but it's also true. And I'll admit, I'm probably more on the extreme side of player reception to your PVE job design, but I'm certainly not alone when it comes to hating your PVE job design. But I'll also turn right around and say that I love your PVP job design. It's not perfect, but it's overall a world of difference from PVE job design.

Now, I'm sure you're aware of how much a fair amount of people hate your PVE job design too, but for whatever reason, it seems to be something you adamantly refuse to change. I have no idea what Yoshi P's recent statement about job design means because it could not use more enigmatic language, but I don't have much hope that the plans for the next expansion will be any better, so I'd like to propose a possible solution: allow us to use PVP job kits in certain areas of PVE content. I've not been subtle about having avoided DT completely entirely because of my refusal to tolerate years 5, 6, and 7 of the miserable glare-spam healer design, but If I had the option to use PVP healer kits with modified potencies for PVE, I would 100% resub to FFXIV to play through Dawntrail's story if I could do so in the following content:

Overworld Exploration and FATEs: If Blue Mage is allowed to run around without strings attached, there's no reason PVP job kits can't as well.

MSQ Instances: This content is entirely solo, so my choice to take a PVP kit has no impact on other players and I see no reason to restrict this.

Dungeons with Trusts/Squadrons: Again, if I'm clearing the dungeon solo, my PVP kit will have no impact on other players.

Deep Dungeons: Use a separate high score system from PVE job kits, but Deep Dungeons are the perfect environment for PVP kits.

Field Operations: This might be a tougher sell, but seeing what kind of shenanigans were made possible by lost actions and phantom jobs, I don't see an issue in allowing PVP kits to go crazy here as well.

I'll repeat... If I had the option to use a PVP healer instead of the absolutely horrible PVE healers, I would resub the second that patch dropped. Of course, this is not a proper solution to the state of job design in FFXIV, but it is a fairly easy one that would require little effort to accomplish, relatively speaking. You already have the kits. You'd just need to address potencies, perhaps allow for Role Actions, and maybe a couple extra things like tank stance, Raise, etc, and then add the proper UI in the menu. But I don't see why an update like this couldn't be ready by even 7.4.5, maybe even earlier. You must be trying to think of ways to keep people subbed for the next year, right? I'll admit, I'm just one person, but I have a suspicion there's a handful of people who might stay subbed longer or resub to at least give it a try. It might just be worth it.

Give BRD, and MCH walking casts like they do in PVP please!!

PVP is fun because it's not a bunch of scripted encounters and has some actual variability thanks to human behavior completely taking the wheel, not because the job design is amazing.

Trying to merge even more simplified and role-dilluted kits (healers are even more green DPS in PvP) into inflexible, scripted and (somewhat) dependant on roles content will only make those who were fine with PvE kits despise the content and those who prefer PvP despise it even more. Not to mention that, in case of PvP Healer kits, they would be a massive hindrance in a large part of PvE because they don't have anywhere near the same healing input (most of the healing going on comes from Recuperate and the Elixir. not from healer input)

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Give BRD, and MCH walking casts like they do in PVP please!!

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Give cast times back to SMN. Gun and Bow Mage can stay dead, PvE wise.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

PVP is fun because it's not a bunch of scripted encounters and has some actual variability thanks to human behavior completely taking the wheel, not because the job design is amazing.

Trying to merge even more simplified and role-dilluted kits (healers are even more green DPS in PvP) into inflexible, scripted and (somewhat) dependant on roles content will only make those who were fine with PvE kits despise the content and those who prefer PvP despise it even more. Not to mention that, in case of PvP Healer kits, they would be a massive hindrance in a large part of PvE because they don't have anywhere near the same healing input (most of the healing going on comes from Recuperate and the Elixir. not from healer input)


Give cast times back to SMN. Gun and Bow Mage can stay dead, PvE wise.

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Hence why the suggestion only specifies content where either you're alone so you can't "bother" others by doing it, or where roles don't matter anyway.

For some classes this would work. For others... nah.

theres a lot of "casual" people that cant even handle the current designs xd

They trivialize classes for a reason ^^;

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

theres a lot of "casual" people that cant even handle the current designs xd

They trivialize classes for a reason ^^;

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Nothing I love more than being punished for the perceived incompetence of other people. Why does my experience have to suffer because a caricature of the community is seen as not able to handle a cone AOE or a 2 second cast time?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Of course, this is not a proper solution to the state of job design in FFXIV, but it is a fairly easy one that would require little effort to accomplish, relatively speaking. You already have the kits. You'd just need to address potencies, perhaps allow for Role Actions, and maybe a couple extra things like tank stance, Raise, etc, and then add the proper UI in the menu. But I don't see why an update like this couldn't be ready by even 7.4.5, maybe even earlier.

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Considering that even for something like chat bubbles or certain playable species' hats it took them five years, or seeing that to change anything even more than superficially they generally ask you to wait for the next expansion, I'd not consider this "easy" by their standards. But I'd very much like it.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

PVP is fun because it's not a bunch of scripted encounters and has some actual variability thanks to human behavior completely taking the wheel, not because the job design is amazing.

Trying to merge even more simplified and role-dilluted kits (healers are even more green DPS in PvP) into inflexible, scripted and (somewhat) dependant on roles content will only make those who were fine with PvE kits despise the content and those who prefer PvP despise it even more. Not to mention that, in case of PvP Healer kits, they would be a massive hindrance in a large part of PvE because they don't have anywhere near the same healing input (most of the healing going on comes from Recuperate and the Elixir. not from healer input)

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There is a bit of both actually. Unscripted and unpredictable pvp is one side of it, but the pvp job kits and the battle system used there is also another facet of what makes pvp what it is, else without it you'd have the same boring pve slop than in pve if every job was a boring copy of each other and the only metric was damage.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Give cast times back to SMN. Gun and Bow Mage can stay dead, PvE wise.

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Agreed, walked casts on BRD/MCH aren't what makes those work in pvp either, much like cast times on the PCT filler aren't either. If it was on something else than the fillers, we would be talking, but I also suspect that everybody would shun those jobs in an environment like pvp if you actually had to cast the skills that matter like FMF, Scattergun, Drill, Apex/Blast, Comet, Prism, etc.
Wast times on pvp fillers are pure fluff and class identity.

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

theres a lot of "casual" people that cant even handle the current designs xd

They trivialize classes for a reason ^^;

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Worked perfectly fine in HW with the hardest pve designs this game has had. I see no reason to constantly bring up this strawman because this ain't about playing perfectly in your last ultimate, chief.

I remember when PvE and PvP attacks were the same. They had to include the PvP potency or effects in the PvE tooltips. But an issue with it is just how it bloats the tooltips.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Worked perfectly fine in HW with the hardest pve designs this game has had. I see no reason to constantly bring up this strawman because this ain't about playing perfectly in your last ultimate, chief.

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I don't entirely agree. In Heavensward and Stormblood, I couldn't shake the feeling that there were tanks that "believed" in using tank stance 100% of the time, and tanks that "believed" in using DPS stance almost all the time if not 100% of the time. This split didn't seemed the least bit healthy for the game, because how do you balance content when you have two polar opposite types of tanks dealing significantly different amounts of damage? This was compounded by the tank stance tanks sometimes actually being really bad - for example, spamming 1 button, or using an enmity combo 100% of the time so they weren't applying DoTs or anything.

Then there was a Summoner I met that, according to others, was not doing much damage at all. While they might get away with that in a dungeon, it still demonstrated that the jobs were so complicated for some players that they hardly did any damage whatsoever.

Then there is Dark Knight. I played that very well (somehow) and it was a lot of fun, but while playing it I always thought to myself "there is no way most people will play this correctly".

I had this feeling that they needed to make them at least moderately more intuitive so your average dungeon players were actually playing them relatively decently. Obviously, they went overboard with this. I meant that it should be, say, intuitive 75% of the way but then have room for skill expression after that. Instead, you have it like Warrior and Dark Knight are now, where it's hard not to be a resilient tank as a WAR, and DRK literally can just press everything off cooldown and that's it, so the skill expression barely exists. And I don't need to explain Summoner.

No thanks, I would not want to use PVP kits on the main game. They suit pvp and compared to the main game I find rather boring to play

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Originally Posted by Garruss

No thanks, I would not want to use PVP kits on the main game. They suit pvp and compared to the main game I find rather boring to play

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Well it’s a good thing the system would be optional, right? You can choose regular kits while I choose PVP kits. Everyone wins.

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Originally Posted by Valence

There is a bit of both actually. Unscripted and unpredictable pvp is one side of it, but the pvp job kits and the battle system used there is also another facet of what makes pvp what it is, else without it you'd have the same boring pve slop than in pve if every job was a boring copy of each other and the only metric was damage.

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PVP job kits are made even simpler than in PvE to allow more flexibility against unscripted and unpredictable scenarios. If you copied that to PVE you would have the same PvE only with an even simpler and less nuanced rotation (which would be an achievement in on itself, considering current design). And from what few buttons you get in PVP, you would use even fewer in PVE because CC is practically worthless in that enviroment. What difference there would be among classes would just pale against the fact each and every job would play like a husk of it's former self. Or a husk of a husk, for certain classes. Different gameplay, equally miserable.

The PvP kit works because it's made for PvP, if they had the PvE kit, most players would be struggling to complete combos and casts left and right and you would be very lucky if you even managed to land even half of your burst window.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

PVP job kits are made even simpler than in PvE to allow more flexibility against unscripted and unpredictable scenarios. If you copied that to PVE you would have the same PvE only with an even simpler and less nuanced rotation (which would be an achievement). And from what few buttons you get in PVP, you would use even fewer in PVE because CC is practically worthless in that enviroment. What difference there would be among classes would just pale against the fact each and every job would play like a husk of it's former self. Or a husk of a husk, for certain classes. Different gameplay, equally miserable.

The PvP kit works because it's made for PvP, if they had the PvE kit, most players would be struggling to complete combos and cast left and right.

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The healers would disagree. Try doing a deep dungeon with nothing but Glare slop and cooldowns that take way too long and let me know if you think that’s more engaging than PvP.

I’d take a 12 second Eukrasian Dosis DOT that gives me a barter over a 30 second DOT that doesn’t. I’d take a 15 second CD Phlegma that combos into Psyche over a 40 second CD Phlegma and a 60 second cooldown Psyche. I’d take having an OGCD Toxikon every 10 seconds that upgrades into a stronger Toxikon II over an uptime tool that I only get 3 off per battle. I’d take a DPS positive Pneuma with Panhaima attached over a DPS neutral Pneuma that is really just a glorified Cure III.

All of those sound like a dream come true to me. Of course, being optional means that no one has to choose either for the listed content. I might not get 8-man or 24-man content out of it, but then nothing of value to me would be lost in that circumstance anyway.

No thank you. It's oil and water.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Well it’s a good thing the system would be optional, right? You can choose regular kits while I choose PVP kits. Everyone wins.

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To balance for both would be too much work for the dev team

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Originally Posted by Garruss

To balance for both would be too much work for the dev team

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Balance for what? FATEs, MSQ instances, and Solo deep dungeons? What are we balancing for? All the content I listed is either when you're alone, or in content that already throws balance out the window. I've seen some of the new phantom job actions. Predict? You can't trust a healer with an attack with a greater frequency that once per 30 seconds, but you'll give a potential self-nuke to players in group content?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I remember when PvE and PvP attacks were the same. They had to include the PvP potency or effects in the PvE tooltips. But an issue with it is just how it bloats the tooltips.

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Now we do have kits completely separate and split between pve and pvp which has been the case since SB, which is fortunate because they don't have to dump everything into the same tooltips anymore.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I don't entirely agree. In Heavensward and Stormblood, I couldn't shake the feeling that there were tanks that "believed" in using tank stance 100% of the time, and tanks that "believed" in using DPS stance almost all the time if not 100% of the time. This split didn't seemed the least bit healthy for the game, because how do you balance content when you have two polar opposite types of tanks dealing significantly different amounts of damage? This was compounded by the tank stance tanks sometimes actually being really bad - for example, spamming 1 button, or using an enmity combo 100% of the time so they weren't applying DoTs or anything.

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The meta was doing as much damage as possible without losing aggro. This generally meant running content in dps stance and adjusting on aggro with the enmity combos, as seen on most savage bosses for example. Those players tended to apply the same logic in dungeons and tanked all the mobs in dps stance, which allowed to kill them faster, and also didn't really matter anyway because AoE didn't have a split between aggro and dps combo, so the only metric was to actually survive and not shoot your healer in the foot in the process by lacking mitigation. Resource management was a thing, and having multiple variables like doing more damage at the expense of defense would mean potentially losing healer damage and on solo target, losing more dps combos. But on average considering the amount of enmity generated by aggro combos comparatively to tank stances, you'd try and stay in dps stance most of the time, and use tank stance for other things (prog, last resort, adjusting to bad teams, etc). This was actually a source of a lot of skill expression as far as i'm concerned.

In dungeons and normal content though? Totally irrelevant because anybody running in anything could clear a dungeon, and if a tank/healer pair would struggle, then they could fall back to tank stance and no cleric (and that's what most casuals did by default anyway, the tanks in dps stance in dungeons were mostly raiders). All of what it did was offering options for playstyles and for every skill level. Would it still work today with how everybody would hammer to tanks that they NEED to run dungeons in dps stance? I don't honestly know how peer pressure would work there. That's how the changes that have been brought over into the game actually damaged the community, because they only catered to the lowest denominator and removed all options for higher skill levels even in low difficulty content. I call that a big loss personally.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Then there was a Summoner I met that, according to others, was not doing much damage at all. While they might get away with that in a dungeon, it still demonstrated that the jobs were so complicated for some players that they hardly did any damage whatsoever.

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So what? As long as they had fun playing their job fantasy and pressing their buttons, why should it matter? Today too there is huge dps gaps between groups even though everything has been watered down. I can agree that perhaps the size of the gap has diminished but why does it matter? People went through casual content just fine. People weren't dumb either.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Then there is Dark Knight. I played that very well (somehow) and it was a lot of fun, but while playing it I always thought to myself "there is no way most people will play this correctly".

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I don't think jobs should be designed to be "played by most people correctly". Else with that mentality, just remove anything that's above casual dungeons currently in the game because extreme, savage, ultimate, criterion, aren't designed for most people to clear them either.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I had this feeling that they needed to make them at least moderately more intuitive so your average dungeon players were actually playing them relatively decently. Obviously, they went overboard with this. I meant that it should be, say, intuitive 75% of the way but then have room for skill expression after that. Instead, you have it like Warrior and Dark Knight are now, where it's hard not to be a resilient tank as a WAR, and DRK literally can just press everything off cooldown and that's it, so the skill expression barely exists. And I don't need to explain Summoner.

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More intuitive is good and this game has an atrocious UI and a big onboarding problem in its accessibility. For instance the game never tried to explain the mechanics of jobs in more details to players because the game assumes that everybody has limited intelligence. The real factor is whether or not a player will stop reading and skip, which already happens on tooltips, but assuming that everybody is going to do it and that they should put everybody on the same level by leaving everybody figure things out for themselves is equally dumb, and i'd argue it actually only push players to remain uneducated. Why try go look up guides and do all that homework out of the game if the game doesn't even try? There are a lot of ways to introduce players to the mechanics of a job that don't have to go through the Actions & Trait menu and tooltips. If anything, reading tooltips one by one, making sense of what they say, and trying to put them altogether to see the bigger picture is actually hard work and the tutorial help each job gets is nowhere close enough to what the game should provide.

The irony is found when you look at brainless jobs like SMN or VPR, two of the most recent job designs in the last expansions, and they do in fact have the most complicated Actions & Traits menus to ever grace this game because every button is automated and part of a bigger series of transformations and systems that totally bloat their outdated menus. Comparatively you have the old HW job tooltips that were a LOT simpler, but the jobs could be very esoteric to understand (old BLM, DRK...) and play well, because the game didn't try to explain, again. So, accessibility, ten times yes, because no matter the expansion, jobs have been a nightmare to understand for new players for diverse reasons that have shifted, but not gotten much better. Only the skill ceiling has been lowered (or outright nuked), but the accessibility is still terrible, notably for BLM even throughout the reworks, because what the reworks did was to lower the ceiling, and not to make it more accessible to actually understand and get into.

DRK back in HW was interesting to me because on top of the tank stance and aggro mechanics that as I explained above could create an organic scale of skill expression, DRK also had the Darkside mechanic on top of it, which was very complicated to manage and play well for a lot of casual players. Did this mean casuals shied away from DRK? No, in fact casual DRKs were everywhere, dungeons, story raids, everything, just living the class fantasy. How did they deal with Darkside? They didn't turn it on, or only briefly to access the few skills behind like CnS/Abyssal. And they went through dungeons just fine otherwise. How did the devs react to that for SB? They nuked the MP mechanic behind Darkside and remove a whole bracket of skill specifically addressed to a certain player subset.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

PVP job kits are made even simpler than in PvE to allow more flexibility against unscripted and unpredictable scenarios. If you copied that to PVE you would have the same PvE only with an even simpler and less nuanced rotation (which would be an achievement in on itself, considering current design). And from what few buttons you get in PVP, you would use even fewer in PVE because CC is practically worthless in that enviroment. What difference there would be among classes would just pale against the fact each and every job would play like a husk of it's former self. Or a husk of a husk, for certain classes. Different gameplay, equally miserable.

The PvP kit works because it's made for PvP, if they had the PvE kit, most players would be struggling to complete combos and casts left and right and you would be very lucky if you even managed to land even half of your burst window.

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I agree but I feel that you're shifting the goalposts here. I merely pointed out that the reason it works in pvp isn't just the lack of script.

This is also why as pointed out by the OP pvp skills are extremely well suited to the deep dungeon model actually, which offers what standard pve doesn't.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The healers would disagree. Try doing a deep dungeon with nothing but Glare slop and cooldowns that take way too long and let me know if you think that’s more engaging than PvP.

I’d take a 12 second Eukrasian Dosis DOT that gives me a barter over a 30 second DOT that doesn’t. I’d take a 15 second CD Phlegma that combos into Psyche over a 40 second CD Phlegma and a 60 second cooldown Psyche. I’d take having an OGCD Toxikon every 10 seconds that upgrades into a stronger Toxikon II over an uptime tool that I only get 3 off per battle. I’d take a DPS positive Pneuma with Panhaima attached over a DPS neutral Pneuma that is really just a glorified Cure III.

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This thread should really be titled, "Let me use PvP SGE in PvE."

It borders on insulting to bring up Glare slop when PvP WHM in PvE would still be nothing but Glare slop and cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

This thread should really be titled, "Let me use PvP SGE in PvE."

It borders on insulting to bring up Glare slop when PvP WHM in PvE would still be nothing but Glare slop and cooldowns.

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Yeah... PvP WHM is still Glare and Afflatus Misery for the most part, and dot being replaced with jumping attack. The only "new" thing for WHM on offensive side of the skills is probably the transformation skill - which can be actually pretty nifty in deep dungeon I guess, but it's still essentially the same job..?

I'm also not sure I'd enjoy using DNC's, BRD's or BLM's PvP kit in PvE, for example, which are the three DPS jobs I play the most by far.

As an optional feature it's not something I'd have been against if it was a thing, but it feels very dependant on the job.

I will say that the idea of having PvP Zantetsuken for FATE bosses would be hilarious, since it isn't an instakill effect as it deals "100% of their maximum HP", so nothing would be immune to it, I would be down for it for that alone.

Every job becoming a 1 button wonder would just result in the game tripling down even further on DDR instakill 24/7 body checks, I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Cleaning up button-bloat and stacking combo skills to one button is good.

But not so much to everything else.

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

theres a lot of "casual" people that cant even handle the current designs xd

They trivialize classes for a reason ^^;

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And nobody likes playing with them. Even others of similar skill. It's not our problem if they wanna leave because they choose to not be better.

no thanks i dont want PVP design, it's even more boring then the PVE design. It wouldn't also work well

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

I will say that the idea of having PvP Zantetsuken for FATE bosses would be hilarious, since it isn't an instakill effect as it deals "100% of their maximum HP", so nothing would be immune to it, I would be down for it for that alone.

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There are a few BLU skills that seem to work in a very similar way(think Tail Screw). Theres a variable on the NPC that can be set to make them immune. Or at least, the variable is there on dungeon NPCs. I dont see why it couldnt be on overworld/fate enemies too.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

PVP is fun because it's not a bunch of scripted encounters and has some actual variability thanks to human behavior completely taking the wheel, not because the job design is amazing.

Trying to merge even more simplified and role-dilluted kits (healers are even more green DPS in PvP) into inflexible, scripted and (somewhat) dependant on roles content will only make those who were fine with PvE kits despise the content and those who prefer PvP despise it even more. Not to mention that, in case of PvP Healer kits, they would be a massive hindrance in a large part of PvE because they don't have anywhere near the same healing input (most of the healing going on comes from Recuperate and the Elixir. not from healer input)
Give cast times back to SMN. Gun and Bow Mage can stay dead, PvE wise.

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Healers are green dps in pvp? Did you ever see the end game results of Crystaline Conflict? You'll frequently see WHM, Sage and scholar being at top dps at the end of CC. This happens even in higher elo. As for healing, this is where you are wrong. I regularly have 1.5-2 million healing in 5 minute matches as WHM and other classes can do it better. I can give you also an example that a Reaper can outheal everyone in Frontlines just because it has a shield that adds healing to whole party. So this isn't just recuperate and potion which play a small contribution. Can also go to frontlines and you'll see Scholars with millions of dps in charts.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

The PvP kit works because it's made for PvP, if they had the PvE kit, most players would be struggling to complete combos and casts left and right and you would be very lucky if you even managed to land even half of your burst window.

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There are already jobs in pvp that struggle to complete combos. Black mage is the one, Monk is the one and Samurai is the one. Given that certain maps have a lot of coverage, these classes can struggle.

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Originally Posted by Halivel

Yeah... PvP WHM is still Glare and Afflatus Misery for the most part, and dot being replaced with jumping attack. The only "new" thing for WHM on offensive side of the skills is probably the transformation skill - which can be actually pretty nifty in deep dungeon I guess, but it's still essentially the same job..?

I'm also not sure I'd enjoy using DNC's, BRD's or BLM's PvP kit in PvE, for example, which are the three DPS jobs I play the most by far.

As an optional feature it's not something I'd have been against if it was a thing, but it feels very dependant on the job.

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Ye well WHM issue is that devs don't know how to balance this class so in the end they nerfed it for no reasons. WHM never had good winrate as other healers do. Astro and Scholar, specially scholar now just straight outbeat whm at every pace due to their shield, tankiness and support that they provide to the team. WHM nerf to the lb is really hurting, those -4k potency is big and already makes you miss kills or have less impact into the game. Even sage currently is better than whm because at least with whm we could have good dps, now its bigger struggle against shield teams.