Nerf Warrior (please)

Your a tank not a healer -nuff said- stay in your lane

Just to point out at this point they could forgot to fix DRK after nerf WAR so don't forget to remind them that the priority is rework DRK first not nerf WAR or other and make it like how this expansion should end or how the next expansion should begin.

unlock your white mage class :mad:

War doesn't need nerfs it is the weakest of the 4 tanks leave her alone! D:<

2/10 Bait

This topic again…time for the way back when machine.

For those who don’t know…WAR is in this position because of changes SE made to its original concept. PLD’s/DRK’s tank stance had mit built into it while WAR’s didn’t. WAR’s tank stance increased hp and healing received. All mitigation came from gear and cds. The health on hit was to compensate for the lack of base mitigation. Even the old defensives played into to the kill it before it kills you mentally…ie Raw Intuition being a parry for all damage coming from the front but a crit for damage from the flanks/rear. This is also why WAR did more damage than other tanks. Add in a dps stance that removed your bonus health/healing and damage healing made even more sense.

What the complaint SHOULD be is, “Revert WAR to its original concept and work out whatever kinks made them decide to change it”. Maybe I’ll make that a post again.

Just go for mechanical consistency.

Paladin spellsword combo -> heals per target hit.
Dark Knight TBN -> scales with targets close to you, shield is per-target.
Gunbreaker HoC -> 1 excog charge per target hitting you

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Originally Posted by A-Omega

This topic again…time for the way back when machine.

For those who don’t know…WAR is in this position because of changes SE made to its original concept. PLD’s/DRK’s tank stance had mit built into it while WAR’s didn’t. WAR’s tank stance increased hp and healing received. All mitigation came from gear and cds. The health on hit was to compensate for the lack of base mitigation. Even the old defensives played into to the kill it before it kills you mentally…ie Raw Intuition being a parry for all damage coming from the front but a crit for damage from the flanks/rear. This is also why WAR did more damage than other tanks. Add in a dps stance that removed your bonus health/healing and damage healing made even more sense.

What the complaint SHOULD be is, “Revert WAR to its original concept and work out whatever kinks made them decide to change it”. Maybe I’ll make that a post again.

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Honestly this is why Warrior self healing is so stupid compared to the other tanks.

Don't get me wrong, I still love my gunbreaker but I honestly might want to level a warrior next.

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

Honestly this is why Warrior self healing is so stupid compared to the other tanks.

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It's a dumb reason though. That design was almost a decade ago. And even in 7.0 WAR got buffs to its healing.

I wouldn't say "nerf" it, it honestly needs a overhaul to be a healthy job... It's not really that good in savage other tanks are usually better other then for invul cheese, though its self healing is absurd self healing isn't important when you get to the "higher end" of content.

Though largely I think support jobs (Tanks & Healers) need to actually be redesigned, I personally think sustain, self healing and even target healing is fine on a tank but with current healer design theirs no reason why tanks have those skills. I wanna play a game that can both utilise tanks having some supportive healing skills while also not stepping on the healers role too much.

I'd only be ok with a WAR nerf if it was part of a core design philosophy shift to make healers feel more needed/engaging in low end content.

In which I do also think PLD, GNB and DRK also need nerfs.

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

Honestly this is why Warrior self healing is so stupid compared to the other tanks.

Don't get me wrong, I still love my gunbreaker but I honestly might want to level a warrior next.

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The original version was the best version. True, it had its flaws but the concept was super fun with an extremely high skill ceiling.

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Originally Posted by aiqa

It's a dumb reason though. That design was almost a decade ago. And even in 7.0 WAR got buffs to its healing.

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Regardless of it being a dumb reason, it’s still true. SE and Yoshi P have a thing with breaking things then slapping a bandaid on it like that makes things better

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Originally Posted by A-Omega

This topic again…time for the way back when machine.

For those who don’t know…WAR is in this position because of changes SE made to its original concept. PLD’s/DRK’s tank stance had mit built into it while WAR’s didn’t. WAR’s tank stance increased hp and healing received. All mitigation came from gear and cds. The health on hit was to compensate for the lack of base mitigation. Even the old defensives played into to the kill it before it kills you mentally…ie Raw Intuition being a parry for all damage coming from the front but a crit for damage from the flanks/rear. This is also why WAR did more damage than other tanks. Add in a dps stance that removed your bonus health/healing and damage healing made even more sense.

What the complaint SHOULD be is, “Revert WAR to its original concept and work out whatever kinks made them decide to change it”. Maybe I’ll make that a post again.

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You're touching on an important part of old Warrior design that seemingly has been lost to the devs.

In both it's original 2.0 inception and from Heavensward onward the job always had strong self-healing, but it came at a cost.

In 2.0 it was at the cost of it's defensive capabilities, which simply didn't work with how the rest of the game was designed.
But in Heavensward and Stormblood it was at the cost of your damage output.
You had to decide whether you wanted to heal yourself with Equilibrium or restore your TP and whether you wanted the healing and mitigation from Inner Beast or spend those resources on Fell Cleave with it's much higher damage.

You could quite easily keep yourself alive in Stormblood by poppping Inner Release and spamming IB 5 times to heal yourself back up, but it would cost you a major cooldown that you could've used for more damage.

And then come Shadowbringers they decided to just make it free all the time, only limited by it's own cooldown.
This opportunity cost and decision making needs to return, not just for Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

You're touching on an important part of old Warrior design that seemingly has been lost to the devs.

In both it's original 2.0 inception and from Heavensward onward the job always had strong self-healing, but it came at a cost.

In 2.0 it was at the cost of it's defensive capabilities, which simply didn't work with how the rest of the game was designed.
But in Heavensward and Stormblood it was at the cost of your damage output.
You had to decide whether you wanted to heal yourself with Equilibrium or restore your TP and whether you wanted the healing and mitigation from Inner Beast or spend those resources on Fell Cleave with it's much higher damage.

You could quite easily keep yourself alive in Stormblood by poppping Inner Release and spamming IB 5 times to heal yourself back up, but it would cost you a major cooldown that you could've used for more damage.

And then come Shadowbringers they decided to just make it free all the time, only limited by it's own cooldown.
This opportunity cost and decision making needs to return, not just for Warrior.

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It’s a design many would like to see return but many also wouldn’t

Just look at the single (SINGLE) class left in the game that has opportunity cost as its core design; SCH. A class that’s beloved by its ardent supporters but a proverbial pariah amongst almost everyone else

As much as you and me and others here want is do we really have a lot of evidence that it’s a widely held want when SCH could easily hold claim to the most divisive class in the game

Just for the record I’m not saying you are wrong in any way just considering

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

You're touching on an important part of old Warrior design that seemingly has been lost to the devs.

In both it's original 2.0 inception and from Heavensward onward the job always had strong self-healing, but it came at a cost.

In 2.0 it was at the cost of it's defensive capabilities, which simply didn't work with how the rest of the game was designed.
But in Heavensward and Stormblood it was at the cost of your damage output.
You had to decide whether you wanted to heal yourself with Equilibrium or restore your TP and whether you wanted the healing and mitigation from Inner Beast or spend those resources on Fell Cleave with it's much higher damage.

You could quite easily keep yourself alive in Stormblood by poppping Inner Release and spamming IB 5 times to heal yourself back up, but it would cost you a major cooldown that you could've used for more damage.

And then come Shadowbringers they decided to just make it free all the time, only limited by it's own cooldown.
This opportunity cost and decision making needs to return, not just for Warrior.

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What you talking about is “identify” and “uniqueness”. It was definitely flawed. That goes without saying, but completely dismantling the job clearly hasn’t worked either. All WAR needed was better defensives and possibly a bit of utility to fit perfectly along side the other tanks. Ironically…SE gave that as they tore the job apart.

Simple fix…remove the negatives from raw intuition, add shake it off, and you’re done.

Another point you made the isn’t supported by the game’s reality…SE removed damage because the job has self sustain. PLD literally has the strongest healing spell. PLD also has better damage and a ton of utility. PLD is also why the offensive stance was frowned upon. It increased DRK/WAR but PLD only got auto attack speed increase. An easy fix for that…remove the stance from the other jobs. Allow PLD to be a defensive utility powerhouse and allow DRK to be bridge between the two.

I am a WAR main. The invincibility everyone claims existed, didn’t. Sure you flexed on the other tanks in big pulls, but you were always on death’s doorstep. A single mistimed input and you were dead. As MT, your lack of proper mitigation was another massive skill hurdle. It required fight knowledge to know when you used your mitigation because you had no more then the one actual skill (especially if you didn’t level PLD for rampart).

I’m actually enjoying this conversation by the way. I appreciate you guys for actually having an intelligent conversation with intelligent points. It’s rare on the forums.

I also have to say this part…

Those who want a return to form are the people who mastered the high risk/high reward play style or at the least understood it. The people complaining either do so out of jealousy because WAR out performed their chosen job (in certain situations because the grass is always greener on the other side) or they didn’t invest the time to get good at the job. Both are player problems not developer problems. Yoshi P advertised a 10 year plan for the game. If he intended for the game to exist that long, why isn’t player growth a consideration? People being able to pick up the game an instantly be great because the game is so easy, doesn’t support long term play. Stripping aspects form one job to pander to another doesn’t support it either.

Jobs should be designed to be accessible at entry with a high skill ceiling for those who master the job. A sprout to a job shouldn’t be anywhere near as job as someone who “mains” it. Being totally honest, saying main anything has completely lost its value in the current state of the game. Jobs should be approachable for everyone, but not every job should appeal to everyone either. Job design and uniqueness should draw people to it (along with the concept it embodies). That’s something else SE has failed at horribly by mixing jobs in the pursuit of random “uniqueness” for ff14. Ie…bard being a fusion between archer and bard instead of both being separate jobs. Machinist being gunslinger and technomancer instead of providing a unique experience that appeals to both halves equally.

I apologize for going a bit off topic there. What I was originally saying was telling the player to practice, isn’t a bad thing. If Yoshi P can take an against instanced housing, new races, butt sliders (lol) why not take a stance on players needing to devote time to being better at a game he’s intending us to play for 10 years? Sure some people will be rubbed wrong actually having to put in effort, but regardless of them, the game would be in a healthier place. This complaint wouldn’t exist if they hadn’t changed WAR for the worse. Healers would still be begging me to take it easy on them instead lol.

I'll be honest, I always feel old when I read how FFXIV old-timers say they miss something like "back when jobs needed skill" or "back when we had high risk / high reward gameplay".

You might need to look across the pond more. What you long for as better class design is just a different flavor of bad class design other MMOs have long tried out, abolished because it didn't work either (same as FFXIV in that regard), and/or copied these results from existing long-running MMOs like WoW, DAoC or EQ1 or so to then avoid stepping into the issues.

That is, Warrior has a lot of design flaws now. No, it didn't have fewer in past days, just different ones. Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel, just crib aggressively from other games, because they handily made the mistakes already so later devs can avoid them. Want a self-healing I-take-the-damage-then-reheal-it tank? Hey luckily for the FFXIV devs, WoW had like 15 iterations of Blood Death Knight already so you can just look at every single design element and why it survived or didn't survive iterating on this design! Want a hyper-aggressive unstoppable juggernaut? Look no further than all the ways WoW's Fury Warrior or GW2's entire Warrior class didn't work out in many regards, and avoid committing the same mistakes!

On a further tangent, I find the notion that every job needs a high skill ceiling but low skill floor to be cool, but also a bit pointless: If this were a decision you could "just make", no game would ever release diverging from this. There's no downside to this utopian design, so there is never a reason not to do this. Since most games don't do this, it is clearly evident that it is hard~impossible to design this consistently.

I mean if you have a job that’s a 3/10 and the devs change it to a 1/10 then wanting the 3/10 back isn’t wrong just because another game has a similar class design intent that is a 7/10

I also wouldn’t say it’s wrong to say only wanting the 3/10 back at the exclusion of all others is also wrong but I don’t think that’s anywhere near as common as the former

Huh there's a 10000 thread on why healers want to be relevant. Wonder why

When this gets needed I'm going to laugh

Nerfed*

/10char

If they do nerf WAR healing they need to supplement it with more mitigation tools or added mitigation on existing tools. Right now WAR suffers from having too much healing and not enough mitigation.

Can’t say anything negative about reverting the game or about older players saying “the original was better”. You realize every change is a return to the original? Multiple versions of the same fight, with different difficulties. How many “new skills” are just repurposed old skills.

If your original plan works but doesn’t meet every goal, do you completely change direction? Say you do. What’s next when the new plan performs even worse? You revisit what almost worked and adjust from there.

As far as people complaining goes…the world is on fire. Everyone is complaining because they made a bunch of mistakes reinventing their vision for the game after years of it already existing. They broke entire systems to make things “easier” and now the game is in the toilet. Even Yoshi P said that was a big mistake. All that was done to pacify the loud minority. Yes, it’s time to go back to what started their greatness. Yes, it’s time to turn a deaf ear (a bit) to loud minority. If those of us saying the game was BETTER (not perfect) were wrong, why are all the plans and changes redesigned things from before? Again Yoshi P sees the same thing is old timers do. Which is why dungeon bosses are becoming slightly more challenging.

If healers had a damage rotation, this wouldn’t even be a debate. You’d be grateful for any kind of self sustain since all of us are tired of feeling weak in fights. Ironically…healers had a dps stance before. AGIAN, not perfect, but on the right path for people are requesting.

I really like Warrior as it is, I play this game by myself and I strongly desire a job precisely as Warrior is now, which is to me defined by its self-sufficiency.

I really hope they do not remove this identity. I'm sorry that healers feel bored if they're not the glue holding a group together when there is a WAR tank, but them's the breaks.

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

I really like Warrior as it is, I play this game by myself and I strongly desire a job precisely as Warrior is now, which is to me defined by its self-sufficiency.

I really hope they do not remove this identity. I'm sorry that healers feel bored if they're not the glue holding a group together when there is a WAR tank, but them's the breaks.

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Don't take hanako's post seriously. They're nothing but low effort bait posts complaining about stuff that isn't there just for the sake of bait.

Because to them every job is in a bad spot or need to rework in some way shape or form.

Plus another obvious hint that this is bait is the fact that they want Warrior nerfed simply because it heals a ton. No other reason. And this is coming from the same person who thinks drk's are squishy.

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

I really like Warrior as it is, I play this game by myself and I strongly desire a job precisely as Warrior is now, which is to me defined by its self-sufficiency.

I really hope they do not remove this identity. I'm sorry that healers feel bored if they're not the glue holding a group together when there is a WAR tank, but them's the breaks.

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Why are you playing an MMO if you want solo sufficiency (or even an MMO that specifically attempts to enforce the trinity rather than something like RuneScape)

I mean your comment basically amounts to “sorry healers that you are bored when you aren’t needed but my fun is more important than yours”

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Originally Posted by DivineP

Nerfed*

/10char

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Don't spam, you can edit an existing post here.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Why are you playing an MMO if you want solo sufficiency (or even an MMO that specifically attempts to enforce the trinity rather than something like RuneScape)

I mean your comment basically amounts to “sorry healers that you are bored when you aren’t needed but my fun is more important than yours”

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Also not like Warrior wasn't self-sufficient before in all content that you even could do solo, you just had to actually know what you're doing.
Sure, now it's incredibly simple to stay alive but as a consequence the job is probably the 2nd most boring job in the entire game, only topped by Summoner..

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Why are you playing an MMO if you want solo sufficiency (or even an MMO that specifically attempts to enforce the trinity rather than something like RuneScape)

I mean your comment basically amounts to “sorry healers that you are bored when you aren’t needed but my fun is more important than yours”

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You play this game to play with others.

I play this game because I love the game itself.

We aren't the same, and that's fine.

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

You play this game to play with others.

I play this game because I love the game itself.

We aren't the same, and that's fine.

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“I play the game because I love the game itself”

Genuinely what the actual hell does this mean? MMO’s are at their core cooperative games. You are forced to cooperate with people in this game to make progress.

If you like the solo experience of a game designed for cooperation that’s fine, but why should your experience overstep another’s? You genuinely make the healers experience worse. Why should that be encouraged in a cooperative game because you like to play solo? Like this is so backwards

What if I overstepped your bounds, my AOE permanently stunned the mobs before they could actually hit you and I justified it as “well in solo play I need to stun the mobs to survive and sustain myself”. Is that fair? Is my experience in solo play justification to encroach on another in cooperative when this game forces cooperation? Because to me it just sounds like unilateral selfishness

I've been playing MMO's since Ultima Online. If you're not aware that there are people who enjoy playing MMO's solo then I don't know what to tell you, maybe get more life experience?

I love how you just ignored 90% of my comment

I know people enjoy solo play (though “I enjoy the game for what it is” is such a vaguely pointless way of pointing that out), but in older games that encouraged or supported solo play they didn’t ALSO force cooperation but then also ignore said cooperation by allowing you to continue to ignore everyone by using something that allowed you to play solo

Either cooperation was completely optional (or required for only optional things) or otherwise cooperating “turned off” stuff that made solo play more available but you didn’t mix both of them

So again I’ll ask, if tomorrow made my (SCH’s) AOE permanently stun the enemies with no falloff so you were “tanking” the enemies but not actually functionally doing anything that required your presence and I justified the change as “but I like playing solo and I need enemies to be permanently stunned because I like being self sufficient and keeping myself alive” would you accept that change? Would you be happy to be functionally vestigial because to the closest letter of the explanation you were still technically doing your job

Because if the answer is yes and everyone should have the unilateral power to ignore everyone else then why does cooperative play even exist in the game anymore

Is it really that hard to understand that your immortal solo self sufficiency ends when you reach content that enforces others to play with you? Why is your fun more important than my fun

To be honest, I read the first sentence and just ignored the rest, you're right. Just like this latest one lol

You think as a Warrior main I'm here to read your novel? ������

Well at least you are honest

Completely and utterly selfish but honest

Not sure whether that deserves respect or not but…………yeah

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Originally Posted by Derio

If they do nerf WAR healing they need to supplement it with more mitigation tools or added mitigation on existing tools. Right now WAR suffers from having too much healing and not enough mitigation.

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Does it really though?

If we compare warriors mitigation kit to other tanks it's really not that far behind It's short mit got two 10%'s and a 400 potency shield thrill while not a mitigation does extend your hp which is effectively another way of mitigating damage, It's got the Shortest Invul by a large mile the only way it lacks is it's 40% compared to how broken GNB and PLD's are isn't as good.

Honestly if you nerfed warriors self healing it would still be a good tank, I think the problem isn't fully Self or target healing in the first place with tanks, it's the combination of having a abundance of mitigation & healing combined with a low output which is the true problem.

Ideally we need to rebalance all tanks kits to have lower mitigation and sustained value (along with healers having too many random heal ogcds) while giving them more interesting and unique things to do.

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

I really like Warrior as it is, I play this game by myself and I strongly desire a job precisely as Warrior is now, which is to me defined by its self-sufficiency.

I really hope they do not remove this identity. I'm sorry that healers feel bored if they're not the glue holding a group together when there is a WAR tank, but them's the breaks.

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I’m a WAR main myself…or at least I was when the term meant something.
For me, WAR is the most boring job to play. There’s nothing fun about fishing for fell cleave while GNB/DRK/PLD all have so much more to do. The new inner release abilities are flashy and fun, but you don’t get them often enough to combat the boredom.

As far as the healing side goes. WAR isn’t the only tank that has self sustain or the best self sustain. PLD does exist even though mentioning it is calling down the thunder. We get all the hate though.

Healers shouldn’t blame WARs for their boredom. They should keep demanding a damage rotation. If they had one, every healer would be happy to see a WAR in dungeon runs.

I don’t agree with the self sufficient part of your comment, but SE has pushed the game more into the solo RPG side and away from its MMO roots so I understand your point.

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Originally Posted by A-Omega

As far as the healing side goes. WAR isn’t the only tank that has self sustain or the best self sustain. PLD does exist even though mentioning it is calling down the thunder. We get all the hate though.

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If claiming PLD has better self sustain than WAR gets some pushback, that might be because it's false and an obvious deflection. PLD sustain is also overtuned (at higher levels), but not close to WAR when played equally proficient.

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Originally Posted by A-Omega

Healers shouldn’t blame WARs for their boredom. They should keep demanding a damage rotation. If they had one, every healer would be happy to see a WAR in dungeon runs.

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No they wouldn't. Many people play healer because they like to heal. Just adding some damage buttons to healers isn't going to fix things.
And I don't blame individual WAR players for boring dungeon runs. I blame WAR design/balance. I am not asking for individual players to change. I want WAR design/balance to change.

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Originally Posted by A-Omega

I don’t agree with the self sufficient part of your comment, but SE has pushed the game more into the solo RPG side and away from its MMO roots so I understand your point.

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There is no solo RPG content in FF that needs the self sustain WAR has. And even if there was, that should not be exclusive to one (or two if PLD suffices) class. If SE genuinely wants some single player focus, that should be across the board. That needs far more equal individual performance between jobs, so that is an even stronger reason to massively nerf tank sustain.

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Originally Posted by aiqa

If claiming PLD has better self sustain than WAR gets some pushback, that might be because it's false and an obvious deflection. PLD sustain is also overtuned (at higher levels), but not close to WAR when .

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I guess we’re ignoring PLD having the strongest heal in the game along with damage on hit (and the best defense so they don’t take half the damage which makes healing them even easier). No, WAR isn’t the only one with self sustain. Let me guess, “it’s a dps loss so I don’t use it”. No, it’s not false. If it were true, PLD wouldn’t be able to do the same exact things a WAR can. Ie…DRK/GBN has to struggle to solo a boss while PLD/WAR can easily. The pushback you speak of is the masses protecting their “perfect tank job”. There’s an entire trend about just that. Funny how no other community has a post like that.

No solo support? Trust system??? Didn’t they redesign the dungeons so the trust system worked better? Aren’t trails being included in the trust system? Variant dungeons can be played solo, OC/Bozja/Eureka all support solo play. There’s even achievements for completing deep dungeons solo..

The OP said they were bored. There’s another trend about healers being bored due to lack of dps rotation. They even planned to stage a boycott. Guess I’m completely wrong even though I’m speaking to what the community has said.

The game design as a whole is flawed and has only gotten worse over the years. Demanding a single job be “nerfed” for something others do while performing worlds better, is insane. Someone posted the most logical take on all of it. TANKS have too much self sustain combined with strong defensives while healers have way too many ogcd heals and overturned healing abilities. That’s the problem. Instead of targeting a single job, why not address the actual problem.

I added another fact…they changed WAR to what it is now. The original design supported needed the extra healing because it lacked the mit other tanks had. Again, that’s SE making a mistake and thinking a bandaid solution will solve it.

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Originally Posted by A-Omega

The game design as a whole is flawed and has only gotten worse over the years. Demanding a single job be “nerfed” for something others do while performing worlds better, is insane. Someone posted the most logical take on all of it. TANKS have too much self sustain combined with strong defensives while healers have way too many ogcd heals and overturned healing abilities. That’s the problem. Instead of targeting a single job, why not address the actual problem.

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Yeah, and from either side this can be fixed:

* Either, as with most MMORPGs, they need to massively increase the HP pools of everyone compared to the incoming damage, then in turn massively increase both the frequency and the spread of incoming damage (so you take longer to die, but overall you also have a ton more incoming damage so all that defensive tooling and healer output is actually challenged).
* Or, as Guild Wars 2, they need to more-or-less remove tanks (and healers), making everyone fully DPS-first-and-foremost, removing most extra HP, defensive tools and healing, and embracing a very low-damage-intake style where the former tanks are more "bruisers" (slightly more durable DPS but they can't truly "tank" either) and the former healers are more support-y, with more buffs and such less heals.

But either way it's a significant underlying change to the combat system, akin to ripping it out and replacing it with a different one, demanding more or less that every implementation of every single skill in the game needs to be looked at and possibly replaced.