Dark Knight - rework- changes 8.0 suggestion

Dark Knight

Abyssal Drain (Rework) 30-60 cooldown (3 charges) drains tons more life, deals more damage under influence of blood-weapon

Salt the Earth - Now Siphons life per tic healing the target dark knight passive dot/regan effect. whil under influence of blood weapon

Shadows of the Vold - 60 second cooldown - shrouds the dark knight with shadow armor with tendrils. that whip around attacking targets close too and giving dark knight 40% damage reduction for all types of damage (these tendrils hit for 120 weapon potency anytime they whip an enemy they counter attack anytime your dark knight is hit

Shroud of Darkness - 90 second cooldown - for 12 seconds all physical attacks/skill dealt to dark knight will result in a miss. also take 30% less magic damage

Damage Drain - Creates a siphoning link to dark knight and draining there damage output and adding it to the dark knights damage this puts debuff on enemy and buff on dark knight as long that monster is alive like the tether from paladins cover. it deals damage over time . last 12 seconds or target is dead mp cost 3000 mp (does lot damage over time) during boss fights this makes dark knight super tanky and works with tbn

nah i think Dark Knight atm is good as is they should just make TBN free and then we're fine and maybe combine edge and flood of shadow

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Originally Posted by theunhappypotato

nah i think Dark Knight atm is good as is they should just make TBN free and then we're fine and maybe combine edge and flood of shadow

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Unfornately they suck at tanking until get TBN sadly. I play healer non-stop i tell you this. nothing worse having dark knight tank for you at lower levels just cant wall to wall pull like rest of the tanks can fact they are terrible at it. doesnt matter who dark knight is. its dark knight that sucks not the player. of course someone already level100 wouldnt understand that at all unless have level sync your character f-around find out how terrible a tank you are compared to the others. 1000s upon 1000s dark knights team with they all garbage until get tbn

need to stop using tbn as excuse for baliancing the job right who cares if tbn is great do realise how late in the game you get that ability

I like the idea of draining hp as the DRK attacks.

Some update on main combo animations adding more impact and a stronger sound effects would be nice too.

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Originally Posted by HanakoTheGoth

Unfornately they suck at tanking until get TBN sadly. I play healer non-stop i tell you this. nothing worse having dark knight tank for you at lower levels just cant wall to wall pull like rest of the tanks can fact they are terrible at it. doesnt matter who dark knight is. its dark knight that sucks not the player. of course someone already level100 wouldnt understand that at all unless have level sync your character f-around find out how terrible a tank you are compared to the others. 1000s upon 1000s dark knights team with they all garbage until get tbn

need to stop using tbn as excuse for baliancing the job right who cares if tbn is great do realise how late in the game you get that ability

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In dungeon trash pulls, TBN does nothing worthy of note. It is just a 25% HP shield, which gets melted very quickly. The issue you have is players not knowing how to tank with DRK, rather than DRK being bad, despite what you might say.

As for your proposed changes, you would make DRK broken defensively or they are changes that just wouldn't work as you might intend.

1. Abyssal Drain, Blood Weapon has 3 stacks, you have <3 GCDs to use Abyssal Drain for damage. Abyssal Drain is also already a very strong heal, giving it 3 stacks is just broken.

2. Salted Earth, only lines up every 3 minute window, and again, you have a duration of < 3 GCDs, really underwhelming effect for something that wouldn't trigger often.

3. This is just Vengeance on steroids. Half the cooldown, 10% more mitigation and damage that is over 2 times higher than Vengeance. Something like this would not happen for many reasons.

4. With a lot of packs being mostly physical attacks, you make yourself almost completely invulnerable for 12 seconds, on a 90 second cooldown and, even if you aren't invulnerable, you still get 30% damage mitigation. Way too strong.

5. Without specifying a cooldown, I assume this is something you can just use whenever, this is likely how the vast majority of your MP is going to go in to (assuming it has a higher overall potency than Edge of Shadow). However, if your issue is mainly with DRK in trash packs, reducing the damage of 1 mob is going to make no noticeable difference to the damage the DRK takes. So, it fails in the one aspect you seem to want to try and 'fix'.

At this point, can people stop posting 'fixes' to jobs that they are completely ignorant on? It is just a waste of everyone's time and energy when it could be better spent on more realistic changes that are actually balanced and not the mess that this topic is.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

In dungeon trash pulls, TBN does nothing worthy of note. It is just a 25% HP shield, which gets melted very quickly. The issue you have is players not knowing how to tank with DRK, rather than DRK being bad, despite what you might say.

As for your proposed changes, you would make DRK broken defensively or they are changes that just wouldn't work as you might intend.

1. Abyssal Drain, Blood Weapon has 3 stacks, you have <3 GCDs to use Abyssal Drain for damage. Abyssal Drain is also already a very strong heal, giving it 3 stacks is just broken.

2. Salted Earth, only lines up every 3 minute window, and again, you have a duration of < 3 GCDs, really underwhelming effect for something that wouldn't trigger often.

3. This is just Vengeance on steroids. Half the cooldown, 10% more mitigation and damage that is over 2 times higher than Vengeance. Something like this would not happen for many reasons.

4. With a lot of packs being mostly physical attacks, you make yourself almost completely invulnerable for 12 seconds, on a 90 second cooldown and, even if you aren't invulnerable, you still get 30% damage mitigation. Way too strong.

5. Without specifying a cooldown, I assume this is something you can just use whenever, this is likely how the vast majority of your MP is going to go in to (assuming it has a higher overall potency than Edge of Shadow). However, if your issue is mainly with DRK in trash packs, reducing the damage of 1 mob is going to make no noticeable difference to the damage the DRK takes. So, it fails in the one aspect you seem to want to try and 'fix'.

At this point, can people stop posting 'fixes' to jobs that they are completely ignorant on? It is just a waste of everyone's time and energy when it could be better spent on more realistic changes that are actually balanced and not the mess that this topic is.

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who knows tanks better then person that heals them. 10000 different players i team with different accounts i can tell you this until dark knight gets tbn they are rubbish at tanking

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

In dungeon trash pulls, TBN does nothing worthy of note. It is just a 25% HP shield, which gets melted very quickly. The issue you have is players not knowing how to tank with DRK, rather than DRK being bad, despite what you might say.

As for your proposed changes, you would make DRK broken defensively or they are changes that just wouldn't work as you might intend.

1. Abyssal Drain, Blood Weapon has 3 stacks, you have <3 GCDs to use Abyssal Drain for damage. Abyssal Drain is also already a very strong heal, giving it 3 stacks is just broken.

2. Salted Earth, only lines up every 3 minute window, and again, you have a duration of < 3 GCDs, really underwhelming effect for something that wouldn't trigger often.

3. This is just Vengeance on steroids. Half the cooldown, 10% more mitigation and damage that is over 2 times higher than Vengeance. Something like this would not happen for many reasons.

4. With a lot of packs being mostly physical attacks, you make yourself almost completely invulnerable for 12 seconds, on a 90 second cooldown and, even if you aren't invulnerable, you still get 30% damage mitigation. Way too strong.

5. Without specifying a cooldown, I assume this is something you can just use whenever, this is likely how the vast majority of your MP is going to go in to (assuming it has a higher overall potency than Edge of Shadow). However, if your issue is mainly with DRK in trash packs, reducing the damage of 1 mob is going to make no noticeable difference to the damage the DRK takes. So, it fails in the one aspect you seem to want to try and 'fix'.

At this point, can people stop posting 'fixes' to jobs that they are completely ignorant on? It is just a waste of everyone's time and energy when it could be better spent on more realistic changes that are actually balanced and not the mess that this topic is.

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thats rather insulting calling 1000s and 1000s dark knight tanks i have healed for bad. when clearly they were not just think thats elitist jerk in you that wont accept the fact dark knight just plan bad at wall to wall pulling like other tanks do besides no one knows tanks better then ones that acutall heal them have locked on see the cooldowns they use between pulls. listening to you like listening to b-hurt noob cant accept facts when layed on your face

Its too powerful. maybe the dark knight too weak and needs something powerful level the playing feild cause currently it isn't working

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Originally Posted by HanakoTheGoth

thats rather insulting calling 1000s and 1000s dark knight tanks i have healed for bad. when clearly they were not just think thats elitist jerk in you that wont accept the fact dark knight just plan bad at wall to wall pulling like other tanks do besides no one knows tanks better then ones that acutall heal them have locked on see the cooldowns they use between pulls. listening to you like listening to b-hurt noob cant accept facts when layed on your face

Its too powerful. maybe the dark knight too weak and needs something powerful level the playing feild cause currently it isn't working

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Yes, I am calling them bad, because they are. I witnessed a Dark Knight tank the first 2 pulls of Mt. Gulg without a healer with 2 DPS that couldn't heal the DRK at all. Yes, at that point DRK has TBN, but as I said, it really isn't that good in trash packs.

Now, I'm not saying every DRK has to be this good, but it shows that a properly played DRK is more than capable of surviving on their own, only made easier with a bit of healer input, just like all the other tanks.

However, it still doesn't stop your ideas from being way too strong and obviously not thought out. It is a poor attempt at trying to fix something, even if there was something that needed fixing in the first place.

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Originally Posted by HanakoTheGoth

who knows tanks better then person that heals them. 10000 different players i team with different accounts i can tell you this until dark knight gets tbn they are rubbish at tanking

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I'm sorry to say this so bluntly, but apparently healing "10000 different players" is not a good basis for knowledge about tank balance. >.>

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Originally Posted by HanakoTheGoth

thats rather insulting calling 1000s and 1000s dark knight tanks i have healed for bad. when clearly they were not just think thats elitist jerk in you that wont accept the fact dark knight just plan bad at wall to wall pulling like other tanks do besides no one knows tanks better then ones that acutall heal them have locked on see the cooldowns they use between pulls. listening to you like listening to b-hurt noob cant accept facts when layed on your face

Its too powerful. maybe the dark knight too weak and needs something powerful level the playing feild cause currently it isn't working

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You probably don't DRK very much.

Any DRK player, main or occasional, knows OP says the truth: tanking below Lvl70 is embarrassingly weak.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

In dungeon trash pulls, TBN does nothing worthy of note. It is just a 25% HP shield, which gets melted very quickly. The issue you have is players not knowing how to tank with DRK, rather than DRK being bad, despite what you might say.

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Sorry, I meant to quote this ignorant dude

The problem is TBN gets stronger over time of a patch cycle. When you are leveling, even with TBN the total mitigation value of TBN never reaches its maximum value because the average person is never BIS for that level range. This is why the abyssal drain changes and the addition of the 40% mitigation changes were huge for DRK dungeon sustain.

PLD suffers from the same ordeal when they dont have holy sheltron however they are fine in the 50s range because of clemency.

Honestly their best bet is to redo the leveling for the tanks to give them better tools earlier. DRK should have a weaker version of TBN at level 30. They can even reuse the old animation for shadowskin.

Its really sad that when a new expansion comes out, myself as a DRK main since the job comes out is afraid to run a leveling roulette for the fear of getting a dungeon that is below level 70 just because of how bad the playing experience is when you have to be at that level range.

I think what darknight needs is a similar predicament to machinist now. Its not the power thats lacking, its the kit not interacting within its pieces.
Salted earth used with blood weapon having additional effect, be it either a bit of lifesteal, a dot or applying some debuff to the mobs as examples (could also give dark arts or something, its weird that only tbn awards dark arts).
Blood gauge is also a bit depth lacking, maybe some sort of gauge/mp conversion mechanism could be good.

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Originally Posted by Brandr

You probably don't DRK very much.

Any DRK player, main or occasional, knows OP says the truth: tanking below Lvl70 is embarrassingly weak.

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that is issue cause thats like 79% of total game when think about it. most ppl dont think outside there little box of max level dont see how hard it is when deside to do dailies and your forced to suffer below 70 tanking should it be take 70 levels for a class to do there job I saw no to that that is bad baliancing and class design

no reason what so ever to support that

when your leveling it when take it to max level. try play your job properly like you said not dark knight player doesnt understand how bad and weak it is below 70s those levels matter too

But leveling fast and easy . so what still have team up with 3 other individuals . still extremely weak. yet players still play them like there decked out.


lets be perfectly honest dps players are very rude to new tank players they want them to wall to wall pull specially if they cant handle it. become player custom to bully any new tank player if they cant manage dungeon content they just kick um. its just bad design

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Originally Posted by HanakoTheGoth

lets be perfectly honest dps players are very rude to new tank players they want them to wall to wall pull specially if they cant handle it. become player custom to bully any new tank player if they cant manage dungeon content they just kick um. its just bad design

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Lets look at it from different perspective, why would dps players have to accept tanks that *choose* to pull 1 pack at a time because they dont want to click their mitigation buttons? 1 pack at a time is solo/no tank party pace.
Of course you should be civil about it, i tend to say something along the lines "Do you recon we can try pulling more? You're clearly handling 1 pack without issue".
Also how else do you want people to learn tanking but doing increasingly bigger pulls? You arent really punished if you fail the pull, so why not?

Me when shield hp stacks with damage mitigation

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Originally Posted by HanakoTheGoth

Unfornately they suck at tanking until get TBN sadly. I play healer non-stop i tell you this. nothing worse having dark knight tank for you at lower levels just cant wall to wall pull like rest of the tanks can fact they are terrible at it. doesnt matter who dark knight is. its dark knight that sucks not the player. of course someone already level100 wouldnt understand that at all unless have level sync your character f-around find out how terrible a tank you are compared to the others. 1000s upon 1000s dark knights team with they all garbage until get tbn

need to stop using tbn as excuse for baliancing the job right who cares if tbn is great do realise how late in the game you get that ability

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maybe just maybe they just werent that good, i have no issues as a DRK in any content so use my mitigation and of the healer i capable of doing simple maths and look at my HP pool every once in a while DRK is as capable as any other tnak in the game, in short its a skill issue and not a class issue

Do we really have to go over the tanks mitigation kit below 70 just to prove a point? I guess we do.

All tanks have Rampart, Reprisal, Arm's Length and their 30% that are exactly the same as each other mitigation wise and they are all learned at the same time (levels 8, 22, 32 and 38 respectively).

Now, to compare short mitigations:
Sheltron, 15% mitigation lasting for 6 seconds. Takes 50 gauge to use, which takes 22.4 seconds to generate, assuming 100% uptime for the auto attacks. Learned at level 35.
Raw Intuition, 10% mitigation lasting for 6 seconds and has a heal of 400 potency for every enemy hit in the same timeframe. Cooldown of 25 seconds. Learned at level 56
The Blackest Night, a shield totaling 25% of the DRK's max HP, lasts for 7 seconds. 15 second cooldown and uses 3000 MP. Learned at level 70.
Heart of Stone, 15% mitigation lasting 7 seconds, 25 second cooldown. learned at level 68.

We all know Raw intuition is busted with the heal and there have been talks about reducing it's effectiveness, so it isn't fair to compare it to the others. The noticeable thing here is that Heart of Stone is learned at level 68, effectively 1 dungeon earlier than The Blackest Night.

90 second cooldowns.
Bulwark, blocks all attacks (20% mitigation) for 10 seconds. Learned at level 52.
Thrill of Battle, increases the Warrior's HP by 20% for 10 seconds. As a reference, this is equivalent to about 16% mitigation (based on an attack that would OHKO a tank exactly). Learned at level 56.
Dark Mind, 10% mitigation to physical attacks, 20% mitigation to magic attacks, lasts 10 seconds. Learned at level 45.
Camouflage, 10% mitigation with a 50% increase to the rate of parry, lasts 20 seconds. Parry mitigates 15% physical damage and is ineffective against magic attacks. If the parry does proc, it is effectively ~23% mitigation. On average, this is a reduction in physical damage by ~16%. Learned at level 6.

Warrior's is clearly the worst one here. Just increasing your HP without any additional recovery benefit (the increased HP recovery comes as a trait at level 78) just means the healer is healing you as if you have no additional mitigation. However, it is still useful for attacks that chunk a big part of your HP in one go. Camouflage also being 20 seconds whilst the others are all 10 seconds is also something to note, however, it is also the only one with RNG mitigation, so, whilst we can provide the extremes and an average, how effective it actually will be will vary.

Invulns
Hallowed Ground, take no damage from (most) attacks for 10 seconds. 7 minute cooldown.
Holmgang, prevents you from going below 1 HP for 10 seconds. 4 minute cooldown.
Living Dead, for the first 10 seconds, prevents you from being knocked below 1 HP. Once you do hit 1 HP, you have another 10 seconds of not being able to go below 1HP, plus, all your GCDs restore HP with a potency of 1500 until you have restored the equivalent of 100% of your HP. Once you have restored 100% of your HP, the Healing potency is removed but you still cannot be killed until those 10 seconds are over. Cooldown of 5 minutes.
Superbolide, if your HP is above 50%, it will reduce to 50% and makes you impervious to most attacks, if your HP is below 50%, nothing gets taken away and you are impervious to most attacks. 6 minute cooldown.

With the short cooldown, Warrior is used most, but it is worth noting that it requires other cooldowns to be used to heal them back up. Dark Knight is capable of restoring 100% of their HP themselves, so it isn't as reliant on outside sources, plus, it gets misunderstood the most. Paladin's 7 minute cooldown is just criminal though.

Healing
Clemency, 1000 potency heal, costing 2000MP and uses up a GCD. Learned at level 58. (Do not, it does use up Requiescat stacks with the only benefit being making it insta cast).
Equilibrium, 1200 potency heal, cooldown of 60 seconds, oGCD. Learned at level 58 (the HoT is a trait at level 84).
Abyssal Drain, 500 potency heal on each target hit, does 240 potency damage and restores MP. Shares recast with Carve and Spit. Learned at level 56.
Aurora, 300 potency heal over time for 18 seconds, for a total of 1800 potency heal. 60 second cooldown. Learned at level 45. (the second charge comes from a trait at level 84).

Clemency being really strong due to it's ability to be used frequently is a blessing and a curse as it uses up your GCD, pushing your rotation back, plus, it using up Requiescat stacks doesn't help either. Abyssal drain is effectively a full heal with enough targets, aka, the start of any big pull. Equilibrium is strong, immediate healing, which I think is better in trash pulls than a regen that is going to get lost in the rest of the regens and isn't always obvious if it actually helped (I'm sure it does).

With that out of the way, lets go through the levelling process, starting at level 50 as I am sure noone is complaining about mitigation at or below level 50.

All tanks have the 4 mentioned at the start of the post and they will all have access to their invuln. Ontop of that, Paladin gets Sheltron, Warrior gets Thrill of Battle, Dark Knight gets Dark Mind and Gunbreaker gets Camouflage and Aurora.

Level 52, Paladin get's Bulwark (all tanks now have their 90 second cooldown).
At 56, Warrior get's Raw Intuition and Dark Knight gets Abyssal Drain.
level 58, Paladin get's Clemency and Warrior gets Equilibrium, both completing their mitigation kit.
Level 68, Gunbreaker gets Heart of Stone, getting the last of it's kit.
Level 70 Dark Knight gets The Blackest Night and completes it's kit.

So, if Dark Knight has issues, why are you not saying Gunbreaker also has issues? I have tanked plenty of low level content and I can say for certain that I never have to use my full suite of mitigation to stay alive (yes, this is levelling dungeons, so no massively out gearing going on here). So, even without The Blackest Night, Dark Knight has plenty of mitigation to go around. If the Dark Knight has run out of mitigation, that is their own fault for not managing them properly. Alternatively, it is just the party not killing things quick enough. there could also be confusion from the healer, seeing the Dark Knight get low, with the Dark Knight intending to use Living Dead or Abyssal Drain, only for the healer to spam heal them thinking that the Dark Knight is being stupid.

Again, there is nothing wrong with Dark Knights mitigation before level 70 and TBN doesn't add much of anything to trash pulls anyway, so even after that, almost nothing has changed. The real issue is that people do not understand that Dark Knight has to be used slightly differently, where they want to get to low HP to make the best use of Abyssal Drain and Living Dead. This is as opposed to Warrior, where Raw Intuition is on such a short cooldown, it doesn't matter as much if it isn't used as optimally for the healing. Obviously, there is a lot of speculation here, but I find it hard to believe you went through 'thousands' of Dark Knights and they were all bad.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

90 second cooldowns.
Dark Mind, 10% mitigation to physical attacks, 20% mitigation to magic attacks, lasts 10 seconds. Learned at level 45.

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Dark Mind is actually uniquely 60s and is part of the reason its so busted.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Dark Mind is actually uniquely 60s and is part of the reason its so busted.

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Dark busted is a funny joke lol

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Originally Posted by ThurinTurambar

Lets look at it from different perspective, why would dps players have to accept tanks that *choose* to pull 1 pack at a time because they dont want to click their mitigation buttons? 1 pack at a time is solo/no tank party pace.
Of course you should be civil about it, i tend to say something along the lines "Do you recon we can try pulling more? You're clearly handling 1 pack without issue".
Also how else do you want people to learn tanking but doing increasingly bigger pulls? You arent really punished if you fail the pull, so why not?

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get your point but talkin about tank that pulls 2-3 packs monsters but we have one random asso expect them handle more then that clearly they cannot and is using cooldown trying do there best but some random fucker wants makes things worse watch in the end ruins there cooldown rolation watch leave them wide open next pull. cause of some idiot trying to troll

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Originally Posted by Vatom

Dark busted is a funny joke lol

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I couldnt even bother anwsering the troll at this point nod for you doing so cant believe someone called dark busted

You know this job has been apart of every single Ultimate's World First, and almost every single savage world first since 5.0 right?

Theres an entire game out there beyond expert roulette. It feels pretty disingenuous to not acknowledge the content they actually balance the game around when determining a job's strength and viability.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

You know this job has been apart of every single Ultimate's World First, and almost every single savage world first since 5.0 right?

Theres an entire game out there beyond expert roulette. It feels pretty disingenuous to not acknowledge the content they actually balance the game around when determining a job's strength and viability.

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dont care about that what care about is ability to tank proparly at 1-70 dont care about what i do at max level. sense i do not care to do that content ever. deal with toxic players evolved.

stop using that execuse that its awesome only at level100 and in raids. cause thats like only 10% of the game. if tanking is bad throught out the game doesn't make job any fun now does it. instead of calling it skill issue. call it what it truely is class design issue


also do realise we talkin about tankin as a whole not just they got world first in ultimate. that doesnt warrent bad baliancing

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Originally Posted by HanakoTheGoth

dont care about that what care about is ability to tank proparly at 1-70 dont care about what i do at max level. sense i do not care to do that content ever. deal with toxic players evolved.

stop using that execuse that its awesome only at level100 and in raids. cause thats like only 10% of the game. if tanking is bad throught out the game doesn't make job any fun now does it. instead of calling it skill issue. call it what it truely is class design issue


also do realise we talkin about tankin as a whole not just they got world first in ultimate. that doesnt warrent bad baliancing

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but DRK as a class is good even on lower level it has the same mits as any other tank, the same stats and what nat, i can w2w with DRK in any dungeon without dyingif the healer has more than 2 fingers

DRK is fine so long as the healer isnt really bad or messes up your invuln. If you got a early level version of TBN it would be perfect. I think healers honestly need better oGCD healing options earlier. Most of the time a DRK dies is because either A- lack of proper mitigation or B- Healer did not heal the tank. Some cases you can have both

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Originally Posted by HanakoTheGoth

dont care about that what care about is ability to tank proparly at 1-70 dont care about what i do at max level. sense i do not care to do that content ever. deal with toxic players evolved.

stop using that execuse that its awesome only at level100 and in raids. cause thats like only 10% of the game. if tanking is bad throught out the game doesn't make job any fun now does it. instead of calling it skill issue. call it what it truely is class design issue


also do realise we talkin about tankin as a whole not just they got world first in ultimate. that doesnt warrent bad baliancing

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If thats your argument then can my be "dont care about dungeons, baby content"?

DRK does just fine in dungeons btw.

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Originally Posted by Derio

DRK is fine so long as the healer isnt really bad or messes up your invuln. If you got a early level version of TBN it would be perfect. I think healers honestly need better oGCD healing options earlier. Most of the time a DRK dies is because either A- lack of proper mitigation or B- Healer did not heal the tank. Some cases you can have both

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This is my question not a gotcha.

Is drk power full or is healers overpowered? If drk's mit allow them to pull without a healer then it's drk. If the healer can keep a tank alive without mit, it's the healer. Now if you need both and drk still dies even if it's not all the time but still happens, I'd say it needs a bit of help. But let's be honest most other tanks are very overturned. Just some food for thought

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Originally Posted by HanakoTheGoth

Dark Knight

Abyssal Drain (Rework) 30-60 cooldown (3 charges) drains tons more life, deals more damage under influence of blood-weapon

Salt the Earth - Now Siphons life per tic healing the target dark knight passive dot/regan effect. whil under influence of blood weapon

Shadows of the Vold - 60 second cooldown - shrouds the dark knight with shadow armor with tendrils. that whip around attacking targets close too and giving dark knight 40% damage reduction for all types of damage (these tendrils hit for 120 weapon potency anytime they whip an enemy they counter attack anytime your dark knight is hit

Shroud of Darkness - 90 second cooldown - for 12 seconds all physical attacks/skill dealt to dark knight will result in a miss. also take 30% less magic damage

Damage Drain - Creates a siphoning link to dark knight and draining there damage output and adding it to the dark knights damage this puts debuff on enemy and buff on dark knight as long that monster is alive like the tether from paladins cover. it deals damage over time . last 12 seconds or target is dead mp cost 3000 mp (does lot damage over time) during boss fights this makes dark knight super tanky and works with tbn

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This is not a rework... this is just the bare minimum expansion additions...

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Originally Posted by Vatom

This is my question not a gotcha.

Is drk power full or is healers overpowered? If drk's mit allow them to pull without a healer then it's drk. If the healer can keep a tank alive without mit, it's the healer. Now if you need both and drk still dies even if it's not all the time but still happens, I'd say it needs a bit of help. But let's be honest most other tanks are very overturned. Just some food for thought

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Both are overpowered.

You dont need a tank and healer you just need one, you can clear any dungeon without a Tank, you can clear any dungeon without a Healer.

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Originally Posted by HanakoTheGoth

get your point but talkin about tank that pulls 2-3 packs monsters but we have one random asso expect them handle more then that clearly they cannot and is using cooldown trying do there best but some random fucker wants makes things worse watch in the end ruins there cooldown rolation watch leave them wide open next pull. cause of some idiot trying to troll

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Yeah forcing wall to wall in places with more than 2 packs before the 'wall' is not what dps should do.

But coming back to what i said, just yesterday i had a tank in bardam's mettle that did not do aoe gcds, did not press mitigations and stood in mechanics. They did say anything in chat either. I was ripping aggro on my second flare on every pack and the mobs would stay on me. Thats the kind of tank i do not wish on anyone

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Both are overpowered.

You dont need a tank and healer you just need one, you can clear any dungeon without a Tank, you can clear any dungeon without a Healer.

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I would say that's a big problem and cb3 needs too look at the fundamentals before anything

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Originally Posted by Vatom

I would say that's a big problem and cb3 needs too look at the fundamentals before anything

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It's a fundamental issue that is bigger than the jobs and their abilities. In fact, comparing other MMORPGs, both the tank and the healer-kits aren't even strong in FFXIV. Healer kits are oGCD/CD overburdened while being underpowered and underdeveloped on the GCD-heal side (compare WoW having selections of heals like efficient-but-slow, big-but-costly, fast-but-costly, that stuff). Tanks have maybe a bit needlessly many CDs instead of fewer stronger ones on shorter CDs, but that's mostly a wash.

The underlying issue is an utter unwillingness to deal any real amount of damage to either tanks or the group. And that's a problem. It means tanks can survive pulled large groups of mobs, while healers can spend all their time GCD-nuking, healing what damage there is mostly with oGCDs.

The solution would be a combination of significantly raising HP pools (but not defenses), importantly not adjusting healing/regeneration/shields (so you take long to die even against high incoming damage, but you cannot trivially be re-healed either, it takes real time and mana to do that), then:

* Increase all melee damage output massively (remember even non-tanks have high health pools now!).
* Make many melee attacks cleaving, some even 360° (extra damage on melee DPS that has to be healed).
* Make autoattacks able to crit, and make crit-resistance a type of damage reduction (allows further tank differentiation, one tank could be mostly or passively crit-immune in return for weaker CDs or less passive damage reduction).
* Bigger individual trash mobs and bosses constantly have some way of dealing low~medium damage to non-tank party members. Say on every autoattack they shoot two bolts at random people for 25%-30% of their HP pool, or they cause unchoreographed line and circle AoEs to erupt in the area hitting for 15%-20% on everyone hit, or they just have a ticking AoE DoT that cannot be disabled that still deals non-trivial damage every few seconds.

This together with changing healer and tank kits would allow a setup where healers spend most of their GCDs on healing, not damage, while also being able (heals cost a lot!) deplete their mana pools, so tank damage resistance against "normal" damage matters a lot suddenly. Meanwhile tanks cannot hold their defensive kit just for the 1-2 special abilities, they need to constantly reduce how much healing they require (or re-heal themselves, crucial all of a sudden!), and DPS need to actually utilitze their defensive and self-healing abilities (which probably need some buff then, too).

The thing is... that's too much. That would basically mean scrapping the combat system entirely, including all enemy actions, and re-doing it from the start. And that for 100 levels of existing content. No way are they going to do that.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Dark Mind is actually uniquely 60s and is part of the reason its so busted.

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I was meant to make note of this, but it seemed I forgot to add it. So thanks for the correction.

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Originally Posted by HanakoTheGoth

I couldnt even bother anwsering the troll at this point nod for you doing so cant believe someone called dark busted

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The fact I disagree with your initial premise does not make me a troll (does that also mean everyone that agrees with the fact DRK tanking is fine below level 70 is also a troll?).

Then, to not even engage with the most basic of points shows you do not care enough. I could have also gone down a route comparing healers and how they stack up to healing DRK to see if it was just one healer having 'issues' or if it was multiple, which could have pointed more towards a problem with a specific healer than DRK itself. All these things needs to be considered in a more objective manner to really pin point where the perceived problem is rather than just baseless accusations.

This was before abysmal(lmao) drain got buffed...so I wasn't getting fully healed each time, I was the tank. Minimal item level synced as well, so SMN didn't have phoenix and the party was crippled on the level syncing down below what you typically queue as, there were still mistakes made on the party's part but we were still fine.Take it as you like, but what I came to understand is that even though DrK might have the least sustain it doesn't matter because even the least amount of sustain compared to the other three is still too much...and that doesn't begin to include other jobs and what they can do now party wide.


There are runs without TBN as well in there if you want to look for them

https://youtu.be/zttiIWIZsaA?feature=shared&t=1849

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Originally Posted by HanakoTheGoth

dont care about that what care about is ability to tank proparly at 1-70 dont care about what i do at max level. sense i do not care to do that content ever. deal with toxic players evolved.

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So your solution is to... be toxic on the forums to exemplify to other players what you feel is wrong about high-level play? That's a weird choice, but you do you.