Paladin needs NO changes!

It seems everyday a new player levels PLD and thinks they know everything. You know what? It should be player etiquette to not meddle if a job is not their main!

PLD is already perfection! Chef kiss! Best bestest ever!

Despite not playing paladin too often, (I think it is boring, maybe more boring than warrior and that is huge), i also want them to leave paladin alone.

The larger issue is "tanking" itself. It used to be a bit more involved than just making sure you use a mitigation here and there.

I think addressing this fundamental "boredom" will fix alot, not all, but a lot of the calls for people "demanding" change to a job.

Needs changes to how it looks at lower level. You're often synced down, not to mention new player experience.
Sheltron is one of such points of change, why does it get 250 potency regen with the Holy Sheltron, when base has none? Something basic like 100 potency would be sweet on lower levels.

No no, remove Cover, Shield Bash, the whole shield, the boots and the tank stance! It'll fix everything! >.>

But yeah I agree, the worst about Pally "ideas" threads is always how removed from reality they are. Like any FF job it could use sweeping changes easily, but conceptually there's a lot of good things about it, the implementation is just bad. But in particular the unique aspects such as Cover, spammable stun, wings and the ability to attack from range are damn good, and they're the parts to keep. It's the other parts, the generic elements, yeah those could be reworked maybe, sure. But everyone seems to always be annoyed that all 4 tanks don't play 100% the same and want the unique aspects changed. Weird.

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Originally Posted by ThurinTurambar

Needs changes to how it looks at lower level. You're often synced down, not to mention new player experience.
Sheltron is one of such points of change, why does it get 250 potency regen with the Holy Sheltron, when base has none? Something basic like 100 potency would be sweet on lower levels.

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Why Regen on lower levels? We have a healer for that

PLD is to my eyes what SGE is………an absolutely flawless interpretation of square modern tanking paradigms.


It’s just that squares modern tank design is awful which drags down all 4 tanks

People try to tweak around the edges on PLD specifically seeing if they can make it good by editing PLD’s rotation but miss the more general point that tanking in this game needs a ground up rework and in its current format you can’t really improve PLD (I’m lumping in how much healing tanks do as modern tank design)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

PLD is to my eyes what SGE is………an absolutely flawless interpretation of square modern tanking paradigms.


It’s just that squares modern tank design is awful which drags down all 4 tanks

People try to tweak around the edges on PLD specifically seeing if they can make it good by editing PLD’s rotation but miss the more general point that tanking in this game needs a ground up rework and in its current format you can’t really improve PLD (I’m lumping in how much healing tanks do as modern tank design)

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Wrong.

This is the only game where tanking is fun. Most other games tanks can't do anything by themselves, able to survive a hit made by a dragon but barely able to kill a rat.

I'm a main PLD and I love, I absolutely love, being a invincible slow DPS!

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Originally Posted by Brandr

Wrong.

This is the only game where tanking is fun. Most other games tanks can't do anything by themselves, able to survive a hit made by a dragon but barely able to kill a rat.

I'm a main PLD and I love, I absolutely love, being a invincible slow DPS!

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If your idea of fun in a trinity based MMO is to be a one man army may I suggest a single player game

Your immortality doesn’t exist in a vacuum, it can and does make other players experience worse

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Originally Posted by Brandr

I'm a main PLD and I love, I absolutely love, being a invincible slow DPS!

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Been there, done that. In CLL and DRN and Dalriada, with Lost Cure III and Lost Arise. It's fun for the first few runs, but after that... being an invincible god is just kinda "meh." Like, where's the challenge? Where's the test of my "skill"?

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Been there, done that. In CLL and DRN and Dalriada, with Lost Cure III and Lost Arise. It's fun for the first few runs, but after that... being an invincible god is just kinda "meh." Like, where's the challenge? Where's the test of my "skill"?

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Blood Rage cycling.

@OP, yeah PLD plays extremely well. Just getting tired of the unlimited bladeworks shit. Rather we pulled back a bit to more swordsmanship and shield work.

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Originally Posted by Brandr

Why Regen on lower levels? We have a healer for that

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A) there exists content where healer is not around, or when is they arent doing a good job.
B) the 4s mit button does not feel very impactful, especially when its gauge based. It would make sense from job fantasy standpoint, resolve from holding your ground and all.
C) other tanks have meaningful/sustainable healing buttons at the level range

Just now had a stone vigil roulette where the healer was running their mp to the ground with cure III and medica, not casting regen at all. Had i not slept mobs when paladin tank died, it would have been wipe.

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Originally Posted by ThurinTurambar

A) there exists content where healer is not around, or when is they arent doing a good job.
B) the 4s mit button does not feel very impactful, especially when its gauge based. It would make sense from job fantasy standpoint, resolve from holding your ground and all.
C) other tanks have meaningful/sustainable healing buttons at the level range

Just now had a stone vigil roulette where the healer was running their mp to the ground with cure III and medica, not casting regen at all. Had i not slept mobs when paladin tank died, it would have been wipe.

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Everybody complaining the game is too easy and you come here complaining that you had difficult situation... And your party didn't even wipe.
You know, in this same thread there is a main healer player complaining that I said PLD is an immortal slow DPS.

PLD is awesome, but we all know it's not WAR levels of immortality.

This game has the best tanks because we do contribute to the damage, while in many other games we just stand there lifting a shield.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If your idea of fun in a trinity based MMO is to be a one man army may I suggest a single player game

Your immortality doesn’t exist in a vacuum, it can and does make other players experience worse

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You're a main healer, so you know I used a hyperbole. If not played well, tanks die a lot.

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Originally Posted by Brandr

If not played well, tanks die a lot.

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More like exceptionally badly.
You have to really try to die as a tank nowadays, pretty much the only thing that kills you is doing a mechanic wrong in savage (but that applies to everyone equally) or not mitigating at all.

Sure, people exist that play tanks in this game like it's WoW circa 2004 where you just face tanked everything because your actual defensive abilities had 5+ minute cooldowns.
But they're not exactly the norm.

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Originally Posted by Brandr

Everybody complaining the game is too easy and you come here complaining that you had difficult situation... And your party didn't even wipe.
You know, in this same thread there is a main healer player complaining that I said PLD is an immortal slow DPS.

PLD is awesome, but we all know it's not WAR levels of immortality.

This game has the best tanks because we do contribute to the damage, while in many other games we just stand there lifting a shield.

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Then what’s the problem with doing the same damage profile but replacing healing abilities with agro control abilities

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Then what’s the problem with doing the same damage profile but replacing healing abilities with agro control abilities

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Nothing, though there's also no upside, assuming aggro stays trivial like now and healing also stays under-challenged as is. You cannot fix the current overly simplistic healing system on the class side. Those need extensive changes, sure. But first and foremost damage intake to the group needs to be high enough so that healers have a reason to spend much or even the majority of their GCDs on healing, and (ideally) tanks would want spend a significant portion of their GCDs on abilities that reduce damage (note: GCDs!).

Without having that, changes to the classes are pointless. They cannot achieve better gameplay, because the gameplay side of that is missing.

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Originally Posted by Brandr

If not played well, tanks die a lot.

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Do you mean at ARR level where they still aren't a one man army? In Stone Vigil and Aurum in sprout gear?

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Originally Posted by Brandr

Everybody complaining the game is too easy and you come here complaining that you had difficult situation... And your party didn't even wipe.
You know, in this same thread there is a main healer player complaining that I said PLD is an immortal slow DPS.

PLD is awesome, but we all know it's not WAR levels of immortality.

This game has the best tanks because we do contribute to the damage, while in many other games we just stand there lifting a shield.

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So how is asking for a more gradual introduction of the core kit a bad thing?

I fancy myself a potd score runner, cleared on both warrior and paladin - despite giving it all, warrior easily did more than 200 more kills than paladin (difference comes in 141-200, before you kill everything on both). PotD scoring on tanks is basicly their aoe/survivability in a vacuum. Where paladin struggles for life, warrior pulls twice as big and barely breaks a sweat.
Why would you want to give sprouts a reason to play paladin when warrior is so much better on lower levels. They are better off just playing that right?

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Originally Posted by Brandr

It seems everyday a new player levels PLD and thinks they know everything. You know what? It should be player etiquette to not meddle if a job is not their main!

PLD is already perfection! Chef kiss! Best bestest ever!

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As a actual paladin main, who liked the job before it was turn into a samey mesh of every other tank I couldn't disagree more. Old paladin used to actually have two different combo paths where its gameplay was a lot more fun now its just press up light up buttons congrats for doing your basic 1, 2, 3! The older version also had actual room for rotational variance based on skill speed

Revert it to 6.2, Remove 2 minute meta and give it's niche skills more uses on top of that :)

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

As a actual paladin main, who liked the job before it was turn into a samey mesh of every other tank I couldn't disagree more. Old paladin used to actually have two different combo paths where its gameplay was a lot more fun now its just press up light up buttons congrats for doing your basic 1, 2, 3! The older version also had actual room for rotational variance based on skill speed

Revert it to 6.2, Remove 2 minute meta and give it's niche skills more uses on top of that :)

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Nop.
You probably aren't playing currently. Paladin hasn't been 1-2-3 since last expansion. It's one of the few jobs that the main combo is 1-2-3-4-5-6-7! And the seventh is a ranged magical attack, that you can choose between single or AOE.

Also, paladin is a reverse Red Mage: it has physical combo and a magical combo!
Perfection!

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Originally Posted by ThurinTurambar

Just now had a stone vigil roulette where the healer was running their mp to the ground with cure III and medica, not casting regen at all. Had i not slept mobs when paladin tank died, it would have been wipe.

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Sleep is such an underrated skill. They need to stop sleeping on it! xD
Great job saving the run. Love to see it!

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Originally Posted by Brandr

It seems everyday a new player levels PLD and thinks they know everything. You know what? It should be player etiquette to not meddle if a job is not their main!

PLD is already perfection! Chef kiss! Best bestest ever!

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Make Brandr great again by changing paladin ^^

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Originally Posted by Brandr

Nop.
You probably aren't playing currently. Paladin hasn't been 1-2-3 since last expansion. It's one of the few jobs that the main combo is 1-2-3-4-5-6-7! And the seventh is a ranged magical attack, that you can choose between single or AOE.

Also, paladin is a reverse Red Mage: it has physical combo and a magical combo!
Perfection!

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No It's not a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 you don't always just press those buttons in the same order. It's 1, 2, 3 and press the bonus light up buttons you get from your 1, 2, 3 Instead of old paladin which had a DOT and had multiple rotations.

If you mean by "Magical combo" you mean spam your big 4 ranged fellcleaves every minute sure I guess you can call that a "magic combo".

Problem is Paladin wasn't designed to be "holy warrior" it was designed as a totally different job the fact that it's current design so lazily put together compared to the old paladin is something you don't seem to want to talk about.

Can you explain whats perfect about it? you like it because its "the reverse of red mage" or something? like that's cool and all but what about its rotation or gameplay is "perfection" to you?

Honestly yes, Paladin is 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. I know it's not a perfectly aligned combo, there are micro-optimizations, but you could fold it into one button at ~no loss of gameplay depth, and that's always the smell test as to whether the extra buttons existing add anything to the gameplay. They don't.

I would fold it like this, tbh:

* Remove the entire Atonement chain.
* Add increased manaregen and damage to the main 1-2-3 chain.
* You get 1 charge each 1-2-3 combo. However, you need two charges to cast an instant spell.

Done. Functionally it behaves the exact same, even down to how you mentally use it, but we've cleaned up one button. Spell damage can be bumped slightly to compensate for the tiny burst-loss of not having 6 available to save for burst. Which also removes one quirky interaction that just shifts focus away from spell usage during burst, tbh.

Now I would not even consider that "Paladin gets a change". The above consolidates buttons, but it doesn't consolidate gameplay. It's 100% the exact same gameplay, but with needing one less hotbar slot. If I were allowed to go further, I'd want to "rescue" the Atonement animations because they're cool, so I'd do:

* As above, but without the damage/managain increase to 1-2-3. Yes this means we lose mana, rapidly.
* Goring Blade causes a 30s DoT.
* If using 1-2-3 on a Goring Blade target, each attack becomes one of 4-5-6, including the damage gain, the mana regen and the animation.

This of course causes actual gameplay change, hence why it's not a "might as well" as the first change above. But it also preserves the animations, while still freeing up a hotbar button.

Though as far as saving hotbar goes, first make 1-2-3 an autocombo tbh. There's no reason not to do this, beyond some very old very grump users thinking that if they had to have their screen be 50% hotbars, everyone else has to, too!

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

No It's not a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

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It literally is.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

you don't always just press those buttons in the same order.

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That's the beauty of it

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

No It's not a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

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It literally is.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

you don't always just press those buttons in the same order.

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That's the beauty of it

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Originally Posted by Brandr

It literally is.



That's the beauty of it

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So the beauty of it is pressing buttons where it doesn't really matter what order you have aslong as you have sepulchre for your burst? like thats cool and all be theirs nothing to actually manage rotationally I don't understand how this is your idea of perfect.

It literally isn't a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 It's 1, 2, 3 you get 3 uses of 4 and 1 use of 5 for doing a combo, it's functionally different. Nor would a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 be a fun and or engaging rotation if that's all you did like current paladin... oh yeah and press your 4 ranged fell cleave and sonic break... I mean goring blade :)

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

No It's not a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 you don't always just press those buttons in the same order. It's 1, 2, 3 and press the bonus light up buttons you get from your 1, 2, 3 Instead of old paladin which had a DOT and had multiple rotations.

If you mean by "Magical combo" you mean spam your big 4 ranged fellcleaves every minute sure I guess you can call that a "magic combo".

Problem is Paladin wasn't designed to be "holy warrior" it was designed as a totally different job the fact that it's current design so lazily put together compared to the old paladin is something you don't seem to want to talk about.

Can you explain whats perfect about it? you like it because its "the reverse of red mage" or something? like that's cool and all but what about its rotation or gameplay is "perfection" to you?

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It literally is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Not having to press in the same order...
That's the beauty of it

God damnit.

I'm trying to reply to all your points but the system keeps cutting out 70% of my text....

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Problem is Paladin wasn't designed to be "holy warrior" it was designed as a totally different job the fact that it's current design so lazily put together compared to the old paladin is something you don't seem to want to talk about.

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First of all, I'm very sorry the old Paladin died. I now realize you loved the way it was. It's very said when they do a dramatic change to the point it becomes a completely new job. I understand you enjoyed the old version.
Hopefully they will create a new job with the mechanics you liked.

Now, the EW onwards paladin is just the way I like: a offensive tank, a spellsword, a protector, a healer, a JACK-of-all-trades, with a wholesome homage to two of the most famous paladins of the franchise: Agrias and Orlandu!

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Originally Posted by Brandr

First of all, I'm very sorry the old Paladin died. I now realize you loved the way it was. It's very said when they do a dramatic change to the point it becomes a completely new job. I understand you enjoyed the old version.
Hopefully they will create a new job with the mechanics you liked.

Now, the EW onwards paladin is just the way I like: a offensive tank, a spellsword, a protector, a healer, a JACK-of-all-trades, with a wholesome homage to two of the most famous paladins of the franchise: Agrias and Orlandu!

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I agree I like those aspects about paladin hence I still play it despite my issues with it's offensive rotation, I'm glad you can find enjoyment in it too even if I don't really like how jobs in general feel compared to how they used to before they reworked a mass amount of them. Old paladin at least back in endwalker it still had those spell sword elements it was even more focused on your physical and magic sides and had two separate burst

Don't get me wrong I Like using a mix of magic and physical attacks, I love its protective aspects and I'm in favour of keeping it's healing aspects (despite the tank vs healer argument, I think we can live in a world where tanks provide some sustain/healing while not stepping over healers too much, it needs to be better balanced by a long shot) because to me that's fitting of a "Paladin"

All I'm saying is saying a job couldn't always be better is a flawed way of thinking in my opinion, we should strive for more, I think current paladin is the best tank but that's more because tank design really needs a lot of improving from my perspective I want to actively protect party members and feel like my support skills are important rather then being a super defensive dps with a slow rotation which I think most tanks feel like to me.

Lets get some things straight. Current PLD is not just 1234567, as has been said already, your aim is to set yourself up to get as much damage into your burst as possible, the main attack being put in there is Sepulchre. However, PLD's burst phase is incredibly flexible in where you can put things, as opposed to other jobs where things happen in a set order. PLD is also the tank that can deal with disconnects the best due to Holy Spirit being good damage at range, even if you do not have Divine Might, not to mention a ton of the burst phase can be done at range as well. It is a tank that has options to deal with basically any situation, whether those situations come up is a different matter, though that isn't the fault of PLD.

Compare that to the old PLD where it was very inflexible. It did not have multiple rotations, it was always physical burst > magic burst > no burst repeat. You might have had situations where you started a fight either with the physical or magical burst so that things lined up properly with downtime and things, however, you still rotated through in the same order (the exception is SB and ShB where you could swap the physical and magical phases with no penalty). The periods between Goring Blade were also very rigid, being either Holy Spirit spam or Royal Authority combo followed by 3 Atonements. Of course, if you wanted to keep things lined up with the burst windows, it was then optimal to skip an Atonement in the unbuffed phase to keep yourself aligned. Couple this with the fact that any sort of downtime where you couldn't hit the boss meant it put your rotation back. If you wanted to realign it, you had to skip out on some more Atonements. Now, it's magical burst phase can also be done at range and it did last longer, however, this came at the cost of not being effective at range for the rest of the rotation and being much more heavily punished for it than other tanks.

Now, whilst I prefer the newer version of Paladin, let's also not just devolve each version into basic, simplistic, descriptions to try and disparage one side or the other. Speaking of which:

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Honestly yes, Paladin is 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. I know it's not a perfectly aligned combo, there are micro-optimizations, but you could fold it into one button at ~no loss of gameplay depth, and that's always the smell test as to whether the extra buttons existing add anything to the gameplay. They don't.

I would fold it like this, tbh:

* Remove the entire Atonement chain.
* Add increased manaregen and damage to the main 1-2-3 chain.
* You get 1 charge each 1-2-3 combo. However, you need two charges to cast an instant spell.

Done. Functionally it behaves the exact same, even down to how you mentally use it, but we've cleaned up one button. Spell damage can be bumped slightly to compensate for the tiny burst-loss of not having 6 available to save for burst. Which also removes one quirky interaction that just shifts focus away from spell usage during burst, tbh.

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No, that changes PLD more than you let on. First is your adjustment prevents the ability to keep hold of Supplication and Sepulchre to maximise the burst window but secondly, it also restricts how you can lay out the burst period, with the Royal Authority combo breaking the Blade combo, this means you have to use the Blade combo before you use any of the Royal Authority combo. This would just be a downgrade on PLD's flexibility. There are other reasons, but those would be the main ones.

See how simplifying things too much can lead someone to make false claims about how a job works?

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Now I would not even consider that "Paladin gets a change". The above consolidates buttons, but it doesn't consolidate gameplay. It's 100% the exact same gameplay, but with needing one less hotbar slot. If I were allowed to go further, I'd want to "rescue" the Atonement animations because they're cool, so I'd do:

* As above, but without the damage/managain increase to 1-2-3. Yes this means we lose mana, rapidly.
* Goring Blade causes a 30s DoT.
* If using 1-2-3 on a Goring Blade target, each attack becomes one of 4-5-6, including the damage gain, the mana regen and the animation.

This of course causes actual gameplay change, hence why it's not a "might as well" as the first change above. But it also preserves the animations, while still freeing up a hotbar button.

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The only gameplay change here is you want to use Goring Blade later in the burst window, again, reducing flexibility so that you get as many of the main combo GCDs into the Goring Blade window as possible. Other than that, nothing changes except an animation change. I wouldn't call this a 'change' that would be interesting in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by Brandr

Hopefully they will create a new job with the mechanics you liked.

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I love how when you lose something you enjoyed, people that benefit from the new thing will tell you how they hope they make a new job with the same mechanics for you as a consolation prize...

I petition we change PLD into something completely different then when current PLD mains complain we just go “maybe one day they will make something with the old mechanics you enjoy”

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I petition we change PLD into something completely different then when current PLD mains complain we just go “maybe one day they will make something with the old mechanics you enjoy”

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PLD main here, and honestly if people can't handle the ever-changing nature of MMORPGs they ought ot just hang up their hat. The very core issue here is that hte devs of FFXIV want to not do this, and it's causing all kinds of issues everywhere. MMORPGs need continuous change including reworks and re-implementations. Classes should not at all be recognizable any more after a few expansions. (That also keeps the game fresher since the gameplay shifts over time!)

That is to say, if tomorrow they rip out the entire job and implement something else entirely that just happens to be called Paladin and wield a shield, but is actually a mix of a group buff song-type character with chants like DAoC's Paladin and a healer, I'm all here for it! Gimme!

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I petition we change PLD into something completely different then when current PLD mains complain we just go “maybe one day they will make something with the old mechanics you enjoy”

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What should I do? Pray that the one I like gets changed to something I dislike? You high, bro?

Still, it's the reality of our current situation, old-pld died, current PLD still is current PLD. We got to deal with the "now".
I tried to demonstrate some empathy, because I truly relate with that feeling
Something similar did happen to me but in another MMO, fyi in ESO, with my nightblade tank, then with one patch the skill which absorbed stamina, hp and magicka was nerfed to only drain HP, losing all possibilities of existing a nightblade tank.

I guess empathy is a weakness for you, a scorned sentiment.
Go heal yourself.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I love how when you lose something you enjoyed, people that benefit from the new thing will tell you how they hope they make a new job with the same mechanics for you as a consolation prize...

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You too. Go heal.

Go heal what? From your lack of sensitivity?

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Originally Posted by Valence

Go heal what? From your lack of sensitivity?

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You're the attacking me for trying show empathy.

Honestly If they made cover cost 0 guage, but an extra 5 seconds on CD and i would think PLD be great, and I think that be a great trade off. I still use it for harder content and endgame when there is a GNB/DRK. Plus passage is a great defensive utility at lvl 70+ even if i use it once a dungeon or once ina blue moon. But hey in everkeep extreme its amazing for the line party stack and lots of shields can carry a fight when done right.