I must admit I haven't done a lot of FL games since the last moogle event. But all I can say is that going for some more with the new moogle event, nothing has changed, it's still a premade fiesta focused around a game design that's all about AoE concentration to wipe whole alliances and steamroll games with little skill involved beyond having the right group. The DRK pulls in are still going stronger than ever, and this is further compounded by new role actions like Rampage and Comet.
All of this makes me think that the way FL are designed probably works for games full of pvp FL veterans all with their own little premades, or in short, what you'd get with custom games. This is ironic considering that the mode has been constantly served to everyone, casuals and players leveling their jobs especially with the rewards of the daily. This feels like a huge cognitive dissonance because the systems that are designed in the mode make everything insanely lethal (a whole alliance will die under 5s) when the mode is served to people that do not have the means to group up and pull the same tactics, leaving them at the mercy of the minority of tryhards that can (and are also more skilled at pvp). This generate situations where it's just seal clubbing time with games ending in 5 minutes tops. If anything, tryhard groups will farm their tomes faster that way and casuals will just be happy for games to end faster so they earn theirs faster as well...
All I'm asking SE is: is this what the experience is intended to be? Is this supposed to be fun and engaging? I'd have thought that with the new additions we got last patch added to FL (role actions, etc), we'd have shifted the design toward something a little more suitable to the actual playerbase using the mode, but I guess not? You didn't even try to address anything, the only thing you cared about was adding "fun new toys" to the mode without any consideration for its viability in the first place. We're still pandering to the few sweaty tryhards that brainlessly steamroll over the rest because that's the kind of imbalances that the design behind FL has been pulling for ages now?
PvP Frontline, same old, nothing new
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07-09-2025, 05:15 AMValencePvP Frontline, same old, nothing new
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07-09-2025, 01:29 PMMawlzy
I'm still popping in to play the two PvP maps and the games fall pretty clearly into two classes. About 25% are as you describe. The other 75% are less sweaty and tend to be more entertaining.
This is an unusual and recent division. I haven't seen a lot of he premades from last year, so it's possible they're in OC or have unsubbed. (Possibly the tourist premades have given up because getting onto Aether is difficult.)
Despite my experience being less negative than yours, your central point is key: what is the experience intended to be? -
07-09-2025, 09:32 PMjesseleewelch
I don't know what the intended experience is supposed to be, but I don't think there's any getting around the fact that aoe is king in large scale pvp where you have that many people involved.
Truthfully, I don't really enjoy Frontlines myself. I view it as a grind to get through. I got mahjong master, I got my rival wings achievements done, now I am 1300+ wins into Frontlines and pushing. I don't really enjoy pvp, but I am an achievement completionist, so it will be liberating when I can finally say I am done with this content. -
07-09-2025, 11:53 PMValenceI'm not going to pretend that earlier versions of FL were better (before the pvp job rework of EW), because they sure as hell were full of their own issues, but there was no AoE concentration and stacking or very little because there was almost no AoE moves, or one weak GCD that was purely AoE, so AoE isn't king by default. FF14 history has been extremely scaredy about AoE, which was definitely a shame because cleaving brought a lot of great things in Crystalline Conflict, but since the devs didn't seem to think it would be a big deal in FL, here we are...Quote:
Originally Posted by jesseleewelch
I'm a pvp aficionado, and while I've been enjoying FL as a casual chill side fun mostly during tome events, I can't say that FL hold up in comparison to the one pvp mode which the system is clearly designed around. -
07-10-2025, 12:15 AMHashu
Frontline brings in all kinds of players, from the casuals just chilling to the ones who love the thrill of PvP and study every skill like it’s a science. If your goal is to level up, you can. If your goal is to have fun, you can too (well, sometimes, depending on the match RNG).
But honestly, among those groups who actually fight seriously in FL, it feels like playing a ranked match with your friends on a Sunday night. -
07-10-2025, 11:57 AMCidel
Here's the thing; there's always going to be skill disparities between people in an accessible mode like Frontlines. Everything from the people who know what literally every job's skillset is capable of and can read enemy movements on the map to the people whose highlight of their skill is pressing the WASD keys and "1." The team that has more of the former and less of the latter is in all likelihood going to be the one that wins. People get steamrolled because they consist of too many of the latter. That's just the nature of the beast. The biggest RNG on any given map is not how the objectives spawn, but the quality of the people distributed on each team.
Frontlines tends to work for the JP because they tend to coordinate better each match and typically have competent shot-callers, in addition to having a societal innate tendency to make an effort and avoid being an active detriment to their team. Meanwhile, a large chunk of the NA playerbase are more rewards-driven and opts to behave with a more cavalier attitude knowing that win or lose, they're still getting the same participation trophy so long as they haven't been vote-kicked out. Because of this, coordinated play in NA games tend to stand out and people rather cry sour grapes over it and demand the skill ceiling be dropped to their level. That's why we have threads calling for the nerf of one-trick pony SAM's one saving grace, or nerf to NIN so people can be negligent of their HP levels without fear of repercussion; without even understanding the risks and nuances to their LBs.
I honestly prefer the unpredictable, dynamic PvP, warts and all, to the stale, mediocre and repetitive slop PvE has become. Unfortunately, I find that the sterile, formulaic behavior of PvE has actually conditioned a lot of the players dipping their toes into PvP to be unable (or unwilling) to think and react on the fly to evolving situations and skirmishes and quickly scapegoat other factors like DRKs, SAMs or 3-way teamfights to rationalize their own personal failings. The devs can't keep capitulating to the lowest common denominators that have dust forming on their Guard button or haven't read a SAM's PvP toolkit, ever.
You'd have more success trying to open a dialogue with the JP playerbase about their thoughts on FL, because if they're not having the same problems, the complaints here are going to come off as nothing but white noise (and to be fair, a lot of it is just that). I think it would probably blow a lot of JP minds if they discovered the kind of issues the NA FL scene struggles with. SE won't justify or defend themselves about FL if the JP aren't having a problem. -
07-10-2025, 07:33 PMValence
I don't think this is about skill disparities. You also clearly have those in CC casual (or even ranked tbh), and the mode works fine, because the system is designed around it, and for it.
I'm clearly talking about problematic designs that run unchecked. Even a tenth of something like this in CC wouldn't hold and have everybody up in arms because it would ruin the mode, so I don't get why we have to defend FL when it clearly shows issues that never get addressed because of what it would ask of the devs (some resources and effort put into it). Let's drop the essentialism for a moment, it's not "because it's in the nature of the beast". It's because of griped systems and design failures. Sorry for being materialistic here I guess.
I always hear that idea that floats around that it works better for JP, and since I haven't been there to check how it goes, I'll refrain from commenting, but let's just say that I'm all waiting to be positively surprised about it. People tend to paint societal difference as fundamentally as if people weren't human but aliens from another planet, and sorry but I have a hard time believing it, especially when said systems are still displaying the same glaring flaws. In fact, I'll tell you why I have a hard time believing it, because for one, there is no real counter to steamrolling strategies except doing your own premade with the same tactics, and two as shown with the modern Secure, as soon as people start splitting a little and losing the blob, they get steamrolled even more because there is even less resistance to the scary premades coming for their asses. -
07-10-2025, 08:36 PMCidel
Ah, so this is actually yet another veiled complaint thread about premades I take it? Otherwise it absolutely would be the case that some people are going to put in the effort to be knowledgeable and "git good," while others are going to queue-up once to get their 40 tomestones, die to everything and then whine about how everything they don't play is broken, and continue to be "bad."
You can also be steamrolled just as hard in casual CC for similar, but ultimately different reasons. Smallscale CC is clearly their priority for balancing, and because of it, core job abilities in their largescale modes go untouched and all of their adjustments are delegated to sweeping defense and damage modifiers across everything, and LB gauge fill speed adjustments. Asking for more development resources to be put into FL, which is largely seen as a meme in NA for several different reasons and not nearly as competitive as CC, is a tall ask. It sucks, but most vets already know nothing big ever happens to Frontlines systems if its not on the heels of a new expansion. That ship has sailed for DT. At best, we can hope for more impactful role actions.
You can choose not to believe or ignore the typical prevailing JP mentality regarding FL and their different, yet coordinated playstyle- but it is actually relevant. It has nothing to do about anybody being aliens or humans, but how their societal differences cause them to handle content differently from us. You can already see this sort of thing in their clear rates all the way down to their usage and expectations in DF and PF as opposed to ours. The DRK draw-in tactic isn't as effective there because a larger demographic of their players fundamentally understand how to avoid or survive it, sometimes counter it, and are not just there "for the tomestones." If they were having problems, we would absolutely see changes more frequently.
Premades running meta comps flourish here primarily because there's no lack of 0-effort fodder to farm Battle High off of. Some people like to rag on Olivia around here, but when they said that bringing-up the skill level of NA players is the solution to countering premades, it actually is. Until then, without me getting specific, meta comp premades will continue to feed off of the over-abundance of forever-no-Battle High indifferent players that will stand there and die to everything. -
07-10-2025, 09:55 PMMawlzyIt's possible to agree with Olivia on that point while noting that the skill level of NA players is no higher now than ~ 3 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidel
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07-11-2025, 02:33 AMValenceIf you took this as a veiled complaint about premades, you not only missed my whole post history about the matter (which I don't blame you for), but also the entire point of this thread, which is specifically targeting bad designs and a lack of care for the mode (or either an unhealthy endorsement of that kind of gameplay by the devs which I'd find pretty horrifying).Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidel
The idea that the devs listen to JP more is also one of those memes that gets flung around on the western part, which is amusing when you read the exact same opposite on the other side of the fence. In fact, the idea that JP is so much better at everything in the game than the west is also one of those memes.
If your state of mind is "I don't understand why you bother trying to make things better because they never get better", then I guess it explains a lot about the state of the world right now as well. And if you're one of those that seemingly never learn the lesson and tell us to stop bringing up complaints because things aren't gonna change before the next expansion, you'll have to realize that waiting for the next expansion to be actually finished and released is already too late. If anything, this is the right moment to point fingers at problems. -
07-11-2025, 04:14 AMjesseleewelch
I haven't really had a problem with premades lately. I don't know if it is because I play on aether or what, but it's very rare that I witness a steamroll anymore.
The real trouble is lack of awareness imo. Being aware of things is a major problem in NA.
For example, in one match of seal rock, my team was blue and in south. Red team had tons of bh5 and was killing it in combat, yet they got tunnel visioned on fighting yellow. Node rng was good to us, and even when we had 2 nodes and over 600 points, the other two teams just kept fighting up north while we sat on our nodes to win.
Imagine if just one person on red had said "kill blue". With just one line in alliance chat, they could have made a bigger difference than anyone could have hoped to achieve with kills and damage numbers alone. They might have made a win lose difference.
In another match, this time Shatter, we had a similar situation. My team (blue) had 1432 points and our big was up. Red had all the bh5 and 1575 points. Yellow was all in on red.
Our commander took half the team to go pinch yellow! SERIOUSLY!?! Thankfully, the rest of us were able to burn down the ice and win before they could blow it but still...
I kinda feel like I should start taking screenshots of game states so people can see what I am talking about, but for me the general awareness seems a much bigger issue than premades. You can be an absolute gigachad in combat but if you're ignoring callouts and totally unaware of incoming pinches or which team is in the lead, you a liability. -
07-11-2025, 07:45 AMCidelWe both know I'm not going to comb your post history about how you feel about premades; I'm responding to what you've laid out here. The thing is, from what I'm reading you've seem to have lumped the existence of premades in with this bad design and lack of care. "Premade fiesta," "their own little premades," "sweaty tryhards" and emphasis on "steamrolling;" I'm picking-up a lot of jadedness on that issue. Other than that, you've alluded to the concentrated AoE meta being problematic, DRKs (both components of the meta premade comps), and the existence of super-casuals and "tryhards" and the expected outcome of that relationship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
You keep side-stepping the JP behavioral argument and brushing it off as some urban myth or meme, as if it has no effect on however FL gets designed, while admitting that you haven't done any research or seen for yourself about how their matches and groupfights tend to play out. So if you don't want to acknowledge that elephant in the room, you aren't ever going to be satisfied with whatever so-called answer you're wanting from SE in response to how NA players behave. I'll say this again, if you're actually serious about SE addressing the design choices in FL, get some feedback from JP first; otherwise you're not seeing how their half of the playerbase interacts with and feels about the design.
And spare me your philosophical analyses; this thread thus far hasn't exactly given SE a blueprint on how to improve FL (for who, really?), and the first post comes off as little more than a blogpost with some rhetorical questions. If you truly believe asking the PvPinterndeveloper to question their design choices in regards to how NA behaves to it, then you do you. I've been around here long enough to see where largescale PvP specifically falls on their priority list, so you'll have to excuse my cynicism. If you want to see FL-only changes before next expansion, I'd suggest creating a more succinct list of feedback describing exactly what issues you have with the current state of FL. Otherwise it comes off more as a rant thread. -
07-11-2025, 08:31 AMTofuLove
I sympathise with Valence. As a Light local, I think that the contrast between organised groups vs casuals is probably the most stark out of ANY DC I played on, on ANY region (NA, JP & EU...oce if that counts?). I frequently go to Chaos for some "better" games whilst playing in EU. Seal clubbing is very prevalent on Light. I just don't know why that is so. I could go on so far as to say that it's, in my opinion, the worst FL DC in the world at the moment.
Whilst watching back some FL game clips from about a year I noted how slow the play felt then. I think the erosion of value of guard, additional dps from role actions, more BH and the like had sped up the gameplay quite a bit. And I used to complain in endwalker that it was a sped up from shadowbringers back so... so... it's even faster than that.
p.s.
I had a thread about reward system in FL. This obviously still a problem in my opinion. -
07-11-2025, 04:00 PMMawlzyPart of the problem is that there is a subset of premades that emphasize padding over winning.Quote:
Originally Posted by TofuLove
Indeed, on one of the larger PvP Discords, the "Frontline Mentor" specifically advocates this approach. That same Discord also organized groups to "raid" Dynamis last year, with the specific intent of knocking inexperienced players into the middle of next week. -
07-11-2025, 05:51 PMTofuLoveI am not sure this thread is specifically about padding - I actually don't have a problem with it. The reason why it exists is that people still want to play games after getting all the rewards, and want some target to achieve. I think padding is different on different regions. Ideal conditions for padding is LONG games - which is something that people fail to emphasise. To achieve long games you need teams that know what enemy team to go for, but aren't amazing at syncing their burst - this is again something that frequently gets failed to be mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mawlzy
On Light, people just can't read score plain and simple, and don't know which team to go for or there are the memes - like 4 monks sitting in enemy base and just killing every person that respawns. Which to be fair is a legit tactic if you aim it at a winning team, but if it's just done for the memes it's kinda eh
NA padding is frequently different. There is obviously a fair bit of misreading of the score in roulette, but I think NA padding happens naturally because of bad coordination :D Basically they frequently fail to sync the burst, so the enemy team just retreats and you can press your cooldowns again and again, without actually anyone dying. Which basically means you do more damage. NA Onsal is kinda funny because of this.
That's why JP numbers are frequently lower - they sync their burst really well and so the enemy dies quicker. More efficient. -
07-11-2025, 07:26 PMValenceThat's why I wrote that I wouldn't blame you for it. Nobody in their right mind would parse post histories of anybody. But I've repeatedly talked against people screaming their minds out about how premades were the worst thing on the planet and should be removed, and how they didn't care especially for all the actual premade groups of friends going in casually without steamrolling tactics in mind. I've been of the mind since day one that the problem arises from bad design decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidel
There is jadedness because while I can myself deal perfectly fine with premades, it's becoming incredibly harder to actually delete their members because premades for one, do learn, and because deleting their key members (like the tanks) usually involves your team actually participating, else you'll just suicide your wind/meteodrive into nothing. The reason this works less and less is because people have also learned to identify premades better and they just flee immediately and I don't blame them for it. It's very pavlovian in nature: if they die from a full alliance wipe at the first engagement, they will not try again for the remainder of the game. And as said in the OP, the addition of stuff like rampage, rampart, bloodbath etc, not only makes premade players incredibly harder to pin down and kill, but it also gives them tools to facilitate the slaughter by bypassing and even outdoing the progressive AoE nerfs that SE gave to jobs over time (DRG, etc).
And this doesn't even start addressing the worst of all: being paired in the team of the premade, which is the most excruciatingly boring shit that can ever happen. That those players actually find this fun, I will never understand.
I'm asking for nothing more to make some research, but the problem is that there is literally zero way for me to do so unless leveling an actual alt on JP worlds, which is too much effort especially considering then I'd have to run a good sample of games to make sure there is different trends that I can notice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidel
The reason I'm being doubtful about it is because of people's natural tendency to overblow cultural differences as it's been a literally trend on those forums for ages.
You keep asking me for research and to get my own evidence yet I've yet to see anybody actually explain to me how it behaves differently on JP. All I've been told is that they don't have the problem. Then why? What is the meta they do follow? Do they also use AoE doomstacks? If not, then why? What makes it so different as what people claim? Even in the west when you get queue syncs, people don't suddenly change their meta when every team is filled with premades, because it still steamrolls as well as it does, and it also counters itself the best.
I also have my own CC experience to inform me of the small differences that EW saw between EU/NA and JP at high level, and it seemed to stem from one side lacking complete discipline and control and leaving their backline die if it meant going for kills, while the other side was at the opposite glued into a formalism that lacked creativity and initiative. The latter actually makes me wonder how JP would deal with our own meta.
I'm sorry, I am not a game designer, I don't have years to work on this, and I'm not paid to do so either. I'm giving feedback of something that I do consider problematic. I do genuinely hope that you're not here like that other forum poster to dismiss anything that doesn't come with a formal essay about the technicality of solutions to bring up to fix the issue, because that's frankly ridiculous. If anything, beware of people that instantly come up with clear, simple and evident solutions. I am also cynical enough not to expect much of it, but then I'd question why you even bother replying or posting in the first place if you're jaded enough not to care anymore at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidel
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07-12-2025, 12:12 AMAtreus
PvP in this game has always been designed and balanced around the ceiling of what jobs and players can perform. It's never going to feel good in any mode when people are playing with their elbows and giggling about their free EXP.
If you don't want to play on JP, then just look at their PvP section of the forums. They spend their time giving gameplay feedback rather than bitching about premades and shotcallers. They seem to embrace them, rather. Should tell you all you need to know. -
07-12-2025, 07:07 PMValence
If you think this is bitching about premades, then I'm afraid your also totally missed the point.
Funny how giving feedback is suddenly "bitching about premades" when it's not glorifying the mode, but when it is, then it becomes "gameplay feedback". -
07-12-2025, 09:47 PMCidelSo then you're dissatisfied with the general lack of skill or lack of effort of your average NA player? I mean I get it, it's frustrating to be on that team that just stands there, tunnel-visioning when you see an obvious (oftentimes marked) DRK running-up to plunge into a cluster of unaware people whose only reaction is to run the opposite direction and end up dying instead of reactively Guarding or Purifying and surviving the follow-ups. Something like that is completely possible outside of premades anyway though. All it takes is one DRK with a macro and a team that pays attention and can chew gum and walk. As I already stated, that's always going to be a skill issue. People have the tools to mitigate and lessen the impact of it. The problem is most aren't even aware of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
While it's not plastered all over about how the JP function in Frontlines, a little searching in places like here or even reddit of all places do have some people providing comments or even detailed insight to how their behaviors out on the JP datacenter works. I'd be happy to give you a quick and dirty rundown of what I've gathered/seen regarding how their side treats Frontlines if you're looking for specifics:Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
- 1) This is going to be the biggest one, but teams are most often times directed by a single commander/shot-caller. Many times all three teams have one. This person will do everything from alert the team to spawning objectives like mid drones in Secure to directing the team around the map and directing where to attack with macros. The team listens. There's no 3-4 different people all backseat commanding or bickering about it. Nobody whining about a sound macro. At the end of the game, people thank said person for commanding. We see bits and pieces of this on NA, but not as profoundly as on JP games. Because of point #2:
- 2) They are very team-oriented. They don't have nearly the same amount of ego as NA has. They do not like sticking-out or causing trouble for others. Everybody queued-up is intending to put in effort. Back when roles used to matter in Frontlines, they would be sure to have a couple healers and a tank in a party. Not stay on 3 BRDs, 3 MCHs, a DRG and maybe a SMN. As I already mentioned, there are no people queuing "just to get tomestones," so the player skill disparity is smaller. If you are identified as being disruptive or trying to hide, you'll probably get vote-kicked.
- 3) Due to points 1 and 2, matches are usually always close. None of these largely helpless blowouts we commonly see on NA; which exists because of both general lethargic and and oftentimes directionless teams of the blind leading the blind. They don't have entire games of both losing teams griefing each other; first place is usually getting constantly pincered.
They absolutely can and do run AoE doomstacks; the difference is they might have to work harder and smarter for it than NA's DRK -> profit meta usually works out. On NA, you plunge-in on DRK with a couple AoE jobs supporting and you'll likely kill at least almost a full party-worth of people with minimal issues. On JP, unless you're sneaky about it, you'll probably only kill 2-3 people while maybe being bounced-back by attentive enemies with knock-backs or WAR chaining you and other focused cc. And they sure as heck don't take their ball and go home and mentally check-out after seeing 1 DRK draw-in kill a chunk of their team.
Really, you could almost say a lot of the meta NA premades are just replicating what JP regularly practices. The difference seems to be that usually only enough players on one team cares enough to coordinate, so it always stands out when it happens.
Okay, but the feedback here is sounding a lot like: "my team is bad, I want a system that dumbs down everything so when we face a team that is good, there's less skill expression for them to outplay us with." Hyperbolic, yes, but after the bare minimum of what I just described on JP server Frontlines, the defining problem is oftentimes just "PEBCAK." Which is why I am trying to explain that the cultural differences in how JP behave in Frontlines as opposed to NA causes this perceived belief that the mode is fundamentally flawed (which it can be in other areas) when it actually boils down to skill differences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
So really, what's your feedback? DRK draw-in is oppressive? There's already threads for that (though I'd like to point-out they haven't changed that aspect about DRK this entire time). There's too many AoEs? Yeah, fair, maybe there is. People die too quickly? Can probably blame the existence of Guard, stacks of self-heals and elixirs on-demand for that. To be honest, any feedback approaching that got drowned-out by the all the talk and jabs at premades, tryhards and veterans. If your feedback isn't just "bitching about premades" then your introductory post itself has a strange way of wording it. - 1) This is going to be the biggest one, but teams are most often times directed by a single commander/shot-caller. Many times all three teams have one. This person will do everything from alert the team to spawning objectives like mid drones in Secure to directing the team around the map and directing where to attack with macros. The team listens. There's no 3-4 different people all backseat commanding or bickering about it. Nobody whining about a sound macro. At the end of the game, people thank said person for commanding. We see bits and pieces of this on NA, but not as profoundly as on JP games. Because of point #2:
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07-13-2025, 05:07 PMjesseleewelch
If you are trying to get wins and certain premade(s) are really dominating every match, all day, then you have 2 options...
Option 1) DC Travel to another data center and try playing there. If primal is dominated by a powerful premade, try playing on dynamis or crystal instead.
Option 2) Just keep rolling the dice. If you queue and end up on the same team as the premade then there ya go. Enjoy the ride. If not, accept that you probably looking at a loss, go for kills or node captures for other achievements, and queue again.
Personally, I generally go with Option 1 when presented with this problem, but but I haven't had this problem in a long time.
If you going with Option 2, you can use player search to find what zone they in. Seek them out, then watch them right after you get the pop. If the disappear from screen right as you too are zoning into Frontlines, you know that they're present in the match. This way you don't psych yourself out needlessly when you don't see them on your team as they might have simply stopped playing.
Basically, you have options for how to either get around the premade problem or adapt to it. -
07-13-2025, 06:04 PMValenceNo I'm not, and I haven't played on NA since Stormblood either. I'm dissatisfied with the state of the game design of this mode. I don't know how clearer I can make this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidel
It's not even about DRKs that much anymore, it's a much wider problem.
1) It's a NA problem. I've rarely seen more than one commander on the EU side, and when they know what they're doing, it works at a macro level. I've commanded quite a bit as well, some teams are very responsive while some aren't. Some are combative, while some aren't, which is something you'll find universally everywhere depending on the quality of the players. Having a disgruntled player about a macro happens, but I think I can count the amount of games where I've seen this on the fingers of my hand. Overall on EU it varies, some periods you'll have commanders with decent to competent directions most of the time, some like currently are mostly silent unless someone decides to start something, and it also depends of the map.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidel
2) I do remember playing on NA when the amount of healers decided who won or lost, and most of the time people swapped jobs to ensure there was at least one per party and often we ended up with two (optimal). There was always times where nobody wanted and the team was doomed, but most of the time I do remember us getting at least a healer, which wasn't optimal, but this goes again against those cultural stereotypes people like to spread around in blanket statements (which i'm also guilty of doing). I also do not see a lot of people trying to hide on EU currently. There is always going to be bad apples here and there but they are horror stories and strawmen in my experience. I do have kicked one or two occasionally that stood on spawn, but then again, if they do this on JP as well, then it's no different from here.
3) Again I don't know how NA has turned those days. What you describe sounds absolutely messy. That's not how EU is however. Skill disparity, perhaps, I don't know.
Then re-read my introductory post instead of making strawmen about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidel
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07-13-2025, 10:52 PMValence
Also if you people think it's still about DRK stacks, it's not. The meta is literally running all tanks with rampart and perhaps one with rampage. I've ever seen multiple premade combos with full tanks at the frontline soaking everything and crowd controlling people and having casters saturate the place with comets.
Whatever you go for, tanks are literally unkillable (you can even go yourself as a tank right into a group of premades and other BH5 enemy players with rampart and odds are you'll still live, that's how OP this crap is).
This is literally what the OP has been about, nothing is balanced nor added with careful consideration. You'd think role actions that are definitely designed for the mode itself (and NOT crystalline conflict) would work better with FL since they wouldn't have the excuse that balance is made around CC, but no, even that, it's a disaster. -
07-13-2025, 11:11 PMMawlzyThere's definitely been an evolution on Aether since the release of the 7.2 changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
Initially basically nobody was playing tank, but shortening the animations and the buff to PLD has modified the meta, and we're seeing more tank-heavy stacks.
I was still quite enjoying it, but the mogtome thing has had it's usual impact. The last match I played, there were 11 players who managed less than 100k damage. -
07-14-2025, 02:07 AMAtreusQuote:
Originally Posted by Valence
You wanted to know the differences, that's what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
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07-14-2025, 07:49 AMNevaehQuest
after 5 years sam still oneshot you. nothing changed
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07-14-2025, 05:27 PMValenceThat's what is what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Atreus
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07-14-2025, 07:47 PMCidelY'know, I was in the middle of typing out a response to each of yours, but then I realized that if you're going to respond with arguments about about how EU plays instead of NA, and cherry-pick instances of "well sometimes we do this too, so it's basically the same" (which is not the equivalent to an unspoken behavior/ a regular habit of theirs), then there really isn't a point of explaining to you why the JP crowd would have less grievances about the current Frontlines system. You say you don't think it is about skill disparities, while telling me your EU games can end in under 5 minutes and devolve into seal clubbing. Yeah, okay. Everyone is just imagining JP matches being more coordinated and closer in score and can just dismiss it as stereotypes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
How's this? How about we re-read it together then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
...Sure saw a lot of enmity there for premades and "tryhards." Can't be a strawman when you allude to it several times in one post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
...So... which is it? Are the DRK shenanigans part of the problem or not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
Oh, well I guess my anecdotal NA games haven't seen many tanks running amok nor saturated comets (which are easier to run out of and guard compared to tactical Bahamut nukes or Macrocosmos and OG DRG LBs . Sounds like an EU thing maybe. I also see tanks getting killed all the time, it really just comes down to the individual tank's skill and the skill of the team their up against. But tanks actually being tanky and distracting entire teams with their fictitious 100-malm provoke to keep their squishier teammates from being targeted by other ranged enemies sounds awful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
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07-15-2025, 10:04 PMValenceYes, indeed, how about we do re-read it together?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidel
- "nothing has changed, it's still a premade fiesta": how in the actual hell is this even aggroing on premades? You'll have to explain this to me because just quoting parts having the word premade inside doesn't instantly make it hostile to premades, you know?
- "steamroll games with little skill involved beyond having the right group" : I do stand by my words, and perhaps then we'll just disagree on principle, especially when the result is just seal clubbing.
- "The DRK pulls in are still going stronger than ever": you got me good there, good job. Of course there is DRKs everywhere, they didn't evidently vanish. The meta has just widened on tanks notably, but you'll most often find at least a DRK trying to still pull the usual strat.
- "works for games full of pvp FL veterans all with their own little premades": once more, just because there is written premade in the quoted text doesn't make it automatically hostile to premades, and in fact there if you actually take it in context it's specifically written that FL seems balanced for custom FLs full of premades (which is a mode that still shines by its absence).
- "the minority of tryhards" / "tryhard groups will farm their tomes": if you consider tryhard is derogatory, then I apologize, because I don't, especially when it's been seen used countless times by players just speaking along the lines of "I'm tryharding this run".
- "are also more skilled at pvp": how in the deepest pits of hell is recognizing basic skill, pressing buttons and the ability not to feed, even hostile to premades?!
- "it's just seal clubbing time": again, how is this hostile to premades? It's literally just stating that people are getting slaughtered/farmed by those groups. You've indicated your condescension for the players that have, according to you, no skill and should get gud as an explanation for this, I've countered by saying including in this OP that I do believe that the source of such issues almost always comes from the developer and design decisions that may magnify problems (including skill differences), or create such issues. If anything, it's your interventions that seem hostile to casual players, not mine being hostile to premades.
The only one I'll grant to you is that one: "We're still pandering to the few sweaty tryhards that brainlessly steamroll over the rest". It's clearly a blanket statement with derogatory terms like brainless and sweaty. But don't go and pretend that this is the essence of the OP, else you're just being, yes, disingenuous and trying to misconstrue the OP.
What you quoted is essentially a NA problem if true, as I said. It's never been about cherry picking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidel
I don't see this on EU much if at all. And yet EU still suffers from similar issues, which is indicative to me that the situations that you pointed as happening on your end isn't the core source of the problem since it barely happens on my end, and if you want to disagree on this, feel free to, but you're not gonna change my mind beyond pitying NA for having to deal with what you listed. It must genuinely suck.
The only thing you're consistently tried so far is trying to shift the subject back to strawmen, and the subject has never been about blaming premades.
Edit: if you actually want to shit on premade haters or just state your disagreement with people blaming said premades for all the woes on earth, then I'd respectfully point you to that other active thread currently called "Ban Premades from Frontlines". -
07-16-2025, 11:01 AMCidel
Oh please, don't even try to backpedal like your tone didn't have a passive-aggressive slant to the topic of premades written all-over it. You even already admitted there was jadedness towards them.
So when you make a thread about how there are "problems" in Frontlines, while going straight into this comment right at the beginning, how is this not harping on the mere existence of premades? And really? How does calling it a 'premade fiesta' not carry a negative connotation the same way people call things "clown fiestas" and such when they mean to mock something? But sure, be pedantic about it. Next thing you're gonna tell me is that fiesta actually technically means celebration or festivities in Spanish so it's actually good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
Yup, sure did got you good. "It's not even about DRKs that much, but I'll throw it into my opening gripe, just because." And not just going stronger than ever, but also "further compounded," *gasp* If it wasn't some sort of issue to you, you wouldn't have brought it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
Let's stop pretending there wasn't an ounce of condemnation in that line. The same way someone flippantly says anything about someone's "own little x." "Their own little clique," "their own little world," etc. Really, why do I even need to explain the obvious passive-aggressiveness tone in your own post? When you ask somebody "is this supposed to be fun?" 19 out of 20 times it's with a sarcastic or acerbic tone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
Well, then I forgive you on this one if you sincerely don't. But by and large most people will see tryhard as carrying derogatory connotations, especially when it's frequently used as a term to describe people who are serious about something that the person using the word finds to be mockingly beneath them. FYI calling someone a "tryhard" and saying you yourself are "tryharding something" carry two separate tones, the same way calling someone a "no-lifer" and saying you are going to "no-life" something have two completely different intentions. But no, you knew that, didn't you? That's why you used "sweaty tryhards" later in the same post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
Like, really. I don't know why I even have to bother explaining it all to you, and while I could definitely give a break-down of every line you want to try and get technical over, it's just easier to identify that you're probably intentionally being pedantic about your word choice in an attempt to gaslight on just how much you actually blame skilled players in premades.
I mean, "how is accusing premades of seal-clubbing hostile to premades?" Really? We're going to be obtuse about the metaphors too? You're right. An activity with a negative implication being used to describe premades can't possibly be construed as being hostile towards premades, right?
Right, because that one would be really hard to come-up with mental gymnastics to convince anybody that you didn't say that without any hint of animosity to the premades that you are so obviously referring to. Seriously, don't you go and pretend that this isn't your entire underlying opinion of the premades "steamrolling" and "seal-clubbing."Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
I'm glad you decided to include that last one and own-up to it, because that's where the mask slipped and I could infer that the entire thing was full of passive-aggressive jabs at premades. I didn't misconstrue anything; you tried to disingenuously backpedal your statements when that entire last line told-on you.
While conveniently leaving-out the inconvenient JP playerbase's handle of the mode. I mean after all, it is easier to just blame the developers then have anybody look inwards, right? If they were getting steamrolled too, they would be suffering the same way and of course the developers would be at fault for everything. They could do everything right and the skill-disparities brought on by low-effort tomestone farmers and indifferent players would still result in "steamrolls." This is a player mentality issue first, before any design changes can fix it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
You, on the other-hand, continue to sidestep the primary cause of skill-disparity (hint: it's not role-actions being added), continuously dismiss JP behavior in the mode as to put all their focus to how western audiences participate instead as the "actual playerbase using the mode," and have such thinly-veiled contempt for premades and higher-skilled players "seal-clubbing" (while pretending not to), and think getting up on your soapbox and spouting rhetorical questions after posting a glorified blogpost is "feedback" anybody can use.
I don't think you actually know what you want, you just want to complain about lopsided matches and instead of understand the actual root causes of them, tell the developers to "fix it so that it can't happen."
And this is where I genuinely have a difficult time understanding what your problem with FL is so much so that you want the developer's answers. You say matches devolve into steamrolls; over in 5 minutes, and when I confirm that it is in fact a thing, but not so on JP games, you turn around and say you haven't played on NA in years and barely see such behaviors on EU. So, what? What's the entire point of this thread? Are you complaining on behalf of NA because everything you described in your opening post apparently isn't an issue on EU? You're not doing much to convince me that you're not just backpedaling after losing the proverbial plot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
No, I've contributed much more than that thus far, you just choose to ignore them to continue to argue pedantically. You keep using that word "strawman," but I don't think it means what you think it does. Quite frankly, you don't really have a subject to argue about here. You mentioning role actions here and there is not feedback. The closest thing you provided to feedback that didn't pertain to being a premade issue is your brief part about you believing it is a "tank meta" with their role actions exacerbating the meta. There's nothing "clear" about what you think you're arguing for, it takes reading all the way to post #22 to actually see a clear example. You don't even mention the word "tank" in your first post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
No, I'm fine. That thread can fade back into obscurity. Maybe your first post should have gone there instead, though, instead of making a blog-rant thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
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07-16-2025, 05:22 PMChocochicOK, but multiple people have interpreted your subject as blaming premades because of your opening post being making constant passive-aggressive jabs about premades. One of your posts even complains about the fact that premades members are hard to kill and ruin/reduce the potential of solo players because of how much resources is required to kill them; that in of itself is blaming premades. I don't think it's strawmanning if the only information that can really be pulled from your post is that you clearly don't like premades, it's just trying to make a general link to what you're saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
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07-16-2025, 09:13 PMValence
There has been exactly one passive aggressive jab, which I regret (how do you want me to fucking write it if premade tanks are hard to kill? Does it mean that's the fault of the premade player or the design behind though???).
Anyway, I'm happy to see that the only thing people seem to care about is screaming about that instead of actually talking about the OP, but that's fine I guess. I'm not interested anymore seeing the results.
Your lack of interest is dully noted, i'll move to something else and leave this topic alone. -
07-25-2025, 12:36 AMBonoki
Premades have been an issue since the introduction of Frontlines, and it may have been even more problematic because entire alliances of 8 players could form. However, I believe it truly became a significant problem for the modern Frotnlines with the rise of the zerg meta. In the past, alliances would often split up and tackle different objectives. When Mount Speed upgrades and earning Battle High through assists were introduced into everything, it became more advantageous to remain together as a whole alliance. It also doesn't help that the Zerg meta means that the game plan is consistently the same between all game modes. It's simplistic. New game mode comes out? Forget the rules, travel together, and drop AoEs. On the other spectrum, I've seen people hate on Rival Wings simply because they are lost, and there is no clear indication of "The Alliance is over here right now" for them to identify easily.
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07-25-2025, 12:55 AMValence
It's something that you can see in modern secure: there is multiple points of action active at the same time (contesting left side, contesting right side, contesting middle when it pops), and even if people wanted to split, which I've tried doing, you can never be sure if you're actually going to get uptime out of it, because sometimes you decide say, to go contest the left side, and you capture points there, and there is nobody in the opposite team to deal with, so it feels like I'm wasting time. But more often it's the opposite, you have 3 people on your side and 10 come you way, so your only option is to get the heck out without doing anything. Only middle is generally invested enough that it will see actionable action to happen no matter what.
All of those mass pvp modes have a very hard time accounting for that when they try to split up forces through diverse mechanics on different locations all happening at the same time. It leaves a little too much freedom to players which ultimately results in choice paralysis in the case of RW, and imbalances in the case of FL. -
07-25-2025, 02:26 PMDivinemightsThe new Secure is not Onsal Hakair or Seal Rock; its overall design doesn’t take into account the typical "horde stomp" behavior of NA players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
Secure is intended to create a three-way conflict, with teams contesting control over three separate fronts—left, right, and top.
However, in practice, many NA players treat it like just another Onsal Hakair, mindlessly zerging objectives instead of playing strategically.
You can refer to the video below to see how Japanese alliances approach Secure.
In the JP region, players tend to split up efficiently, follow commands, and coordinate.
Everyone understands their role, and you rarely see the kind of internal resistance to leadership that’s common in NA matches.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Oz4PKmSIbU
There’s no way Square Enix intentionally tuned Secure or Shatter to play like another Seal Rock.
These modes were clearly designed with distinct objectives and map structures in mind.
Secure encourages multi-front engagements and coordinated control of outposts, while Shatter is built around burst-objective spawn timing and AoE-focused teamfights.
Yet in the NA data centers, player behavior often reduces these modes to mindless zerg-fests, completely bypassing the strategic depth built into them.
Instead of splitting to contest multiple points or timing engagements properly, teams just blob together and roll from fight to fight; treating every Frontline map like a reskinned Onsal Hakair. -
07-25-2025, 11:38 PMAtreusMan this is exactly how NA (at least Aether) used to do it in 2.0 when Secure came out lol. Every little change over the years to points, battle high, mount speed, and even premades elimination slowly devolved our Frontline culture to what it is now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemights
edit: clarified a word, so people understand my stance that limiting premades has hurt the mode. -
07-26-2025, 12:59 AMValence(why do you keep assuming I play on NA I don't even)Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemights
If you refer to the opening of the video, perhaps they look a bit more organized or better split than we have on EU, but skip to 3min and beyond and it turns into the exact same meta with blobs and DRK sinkholes with the same doritos above the head and similar burst macros. All in all, that's what I assumed, people fancy thinking JP is different, but not that much. Even more so, at 6min the whole alliance is a single blob in the middle, even on EU I've not seen that happen on Secure.
As for resistance to leadership, again, I'll just say that if it happens on NA, it doesn't on EU, so this makes from what I see EU play very similarly to JP, and it's a blob fiesta steamrolling over a scattered opposition. All of what you explained is nice and probably the intent behind the design of the map, but all I'm seeing on that video is people specifically only following the principle for less than 3min at the beginning.
Thanks for someone finally providing a video example though, props for that. -
07-26-2025, 01:20 AMDivinemightsIs that what matters to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
I don’t care where you play.
My feedback is based on my long experience playing on Primal, which is in NA.
I certainly could have just typed NA/EU, but does that even impact what I’m trying to say?
You strongly emphasize DRK this and DRK that, but that’s just the current meta—and metas change.
Considering how coordinated Japanese players are, you’re definitely going to see it.
They also know how to counter DRK play—so why do you ignore that?
You also seem to complain about premades a lot, but I fail to see the reason—other than that you don’t want to face coordinated play
Not everyone will share the same opinion, especially since videos from Japanese players have already shown that even randoms can coordinate effectively.
You choose to ignore that and instead pick irrelevant clips to support your narrative about DRK.
Why is that? -
07-26-2025, 02:15 AMValence
Why do I ignore how they counter DRK play you say? I think I already answered this multiple times, but you seem deaf to that argument (another DRK stack is a better and easier counter than anything else specifically tailored against it, for the simple reason it allows you to kill a bird with two stones by being competitive against other DRK stacks AND also steamrolling as well, what's not to like?).
Either way, glad to see that we're now talking about what matters in the OP: the actual design of current frontlines, AoE stacking, and the relation to new role actions like Rampage, etc.
You keep talking about how JP are so much better but the video you linked is literally gameplay one could find on EU any day, with the minor exception that they seem to know about /return a bit more. Otherwise? Same blobbing, same AoE stacking strats and bursts, you can even see the video recorder bullying a clueless bard 1v1 that just gets deleted so you can't be serious telling me JP players are actually better. If anything this makes me chuckle because it's so much of a familiar sight on any DC that it just seems to confirm my initial take, that there is little differences between DCs in spite of what people insist them to be. So far this video literally debunks everything that's been advanced so far, that JP plays differently (they don't, they use the same strats, comps, macros, signs, and they do blob the same way), that JP plays better (they have the same steamrolling groups seal clubbing the rest of a mass of players clueless to various degrees).
You also keep assuming I'm obsessed with DRK, but if you had read the actual thread I seem to have specifically pointed out at a lot of different other trends, notably around tanks. As you said yourself, the meta changes, and I don't like the meta, and I exposed my reasons as to why, yet nobody is able to actually come with anything countering it. So far all I've had is that I'm "obsessed about DRK", that I'm "complaining about premades or hating on premades (lolwut?)", or that what I'm saying is irrelevant because western audiences have no skill and don't play the mode right, while JP does (which is obviously wrong seeing the footage, which tends to show that the whole playerbase plays the mode "wrong" if that type of gameplay wasn't the design intent).
So indeed, why is that?
Edit: almost forgot to address the point about "not wanting to face coordinated play", which is a bold assumption considering that I've always said I want to be able to play with my friends in premades in older posts from people actually complaining about premades and asking them to be removed (which is not something I ever did, again, but keep going for that strawman I beg of you), and I've always said that I do enjoy the challenge facing other skilled players or deleting cocky BH5s. if you think that my problem is actually coordinated play, then sorry but this is hilarious.
The actual problem of coordinated play is that it pushes a gameplay so remote from what everybody else is doing, that it either forces people to adopt it and coordinate, or just lose the game. This is what drives the chasm between both communities of players, and this is also why I'm asking the devs if the current play styles found in FL is what the devs intended for the mode. -
07-26-2025, 03:40 AMDivinemightsLet me get the facts straight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
In the very first post I made in this thread, I didn’t even mention your narratives about DRK or premades.
I was simply explaining how NA players' frontline culture evolved into what we currently have (which Arteus clearly understands).
You were the one who hijacked the conversation and cherry-picked unrelated sections of the video to support your narrative, not me.
All I said was that NA players tend to blob together and roll from fight to fight, treating every Frontline map like a reskinned Onsal Hakair.
Where did I ever say that EN (or EU, since you insisted) player skill is equivalent or not equivalent to Japanese players?
You’re not just assuming; you’re putting words in my mouth.
Now that we’ve got that sorted out:
What do you want?
The root cause of current NA player behavior is tied to how our Frontline culture developed.
DRK is the current meta, but before that it was WAR/PLD charging into the enemy, followed by the horde AoE-ing everything down.
Nothing has changed.
Even you deleted the DRK, NA/EU players will still play every Fronline mode like a a reskinned Onsal Hakair.
I'll be honest,I’m not really concerned about your narrative around DRK premades. (especially considering I didn’t even participate when it was you versus others on that topic)
You’re not the first to bring it up, and you won’t be the last.
Premades and DRK wouldn’t even be an issue if it weren’t for the current NA/EU behavior, which is locked into a “horde stampede” mindset.
You can’t change the behavior of NA/EU players, and honestly, I don’t think you have a solid basis to ask SE to make changes when other regions aren’t showing the same patterns.
In the end, it really comes down to this—what exactly do you expect to happen?
Be practical, and don’t suggest things like banning premades or nerfing DRK.
Those arguments are getting really, really old. -
07-26-2025, 05:47 PMValence
I mean as long as we'll disagree so strongly on how JP plays differently from western players or not, I see little ways for us to even reconcile anything or agree or anything. This is the fundamental basis of agreement that's lacking. You linked a video to show me how JP is supposedly playing different where "everyone understands their role", and I've analyzed everything I've seen on the video. I'm actually glad someone could finally provide some footage of JP Frontline, because it's not that easy to verify by oneself without crazy amounts of efforts.
And the thing I've seen is that there seems to be better organization at the opening until minute 3 where you have 3 groups pushing each of the 3 fronts for the team. Past that, it turns into a familiar spectacle I've witnessed everywhere on western DCs.
So please, let's not try and pretend that JP isn't about "horde stampede" because that video clearly shows otherwise, it's been a giant blob mowing down everything as soon as minute 3 happened.
I do agree with this, it's been like that since the pvp changes in EW that made AoE suddenly viable in FL. It's been like that everywhere since then, for obvious reasons. DRK has just been the most convenient enabler for it to happen, like other jobs in combination to it (DNC, RPR, WAR), but it's hardly the root cause of the problem. The problem is a combination of things that add up: AoE stacking, job enablers like DRK, and role action enables like Comet, Rampage and Rampart, but perhaps that's how the devs actually see the mode to be played, by stacking as many of those advantages together until they get out of hand, a bit like you want to stack 2min party buffs in pve, who knows. Frankly, playing with meta coordinated groups in FL almost feels like pve at times, with exact timers to follow down to the T.Quote:
The root cause of current NA player behavior is tied to how our Frontline culture developed.
DRK is the current meta, but before that it was WAR/PLD charging into the enemy, followed by the horde AoE-ing everything down.
Nothing has changed.
Even you deleted the DRK, NA/EU players will still play every Fronline mode like a a reskinned Onsal Hakair.
You're still deadset into saying that I'm obsessed with DRK, but I invite you to re read what I'm actually writing because this is starting to be very frustrating to constantly repeat that I've pointed at other strats and trends I've noticed especially since the addition of role actions.
At this point I don't know how I can make it clearer that I'm not on a path to destroy DRK and point fingers at it, no more than I am hating on premades and want them removed. I have a feeling that most people that answered in this thread came with other agendas in mind and didn't care one bit about what I actually wrote because they just want to drop their own strawmen and paint me as a DRK/premade hater.
Rework or remove Rampage, nerf or remove Rampart, as those clearly mess way too much with innate damage resistances and the overall mitigation of the mode and put too much of a weight on tanks.Quote:
In the end, it really comes down to this—what exactly do you expect to happen?
Be practical, and don’t suggest things like banning premades or nerfing DRK.
Those arguments are getting really, really old.
This is also a delicate issue they have been juggling with because for the casual players, melees are unplayable as they keep dying because they don't have the skill nor awareness of how to engage and retreat. This is why melees and especially tanks that don't have any zoom out options, keep being buffed in order for casual players not to feel absolutely useless with them, but in return this also makes melees and tanks incredibly overpowered tools in the hands of good players that do know how to use them. I don't have easy answers for this, but clearly what I wrote above would be a good start.
Edit: oh, and yeah, rework Battle High so that points are split and shared between assists, and don't reward kills more than assists either. A 10 point kill should result in everybody getting 1 point if all the assists are 10 or above. Similarly, a 10 point kill should result in people getting 5 points if two people only participate. Of course, perhaps a kill should be worth more to compensate, like 20 points, split between all participants. I'm not deadset on the exact amount, I don't know what would be the most balanced there.